Is Captain David Miscavige’s Claim of 6601 Sea Org Members Real? Or Are There Far Fewer?

[Reyne Mayer]

Combining D and F is a different topic. Apples and oranges.
Not paying staff (in spite of policies that say orgs should) is impossible because of the way Scientology finances are set up.

they're not all that different a topic or you wouldn't have posted them together, right?

now i have to admit that on first pass i took the first of those 4 documents you posted as a cover letter for the others, and i did then mistakenly assume they were part of the same issue.

so an ED signed by LRH is inviolable dogma, but a PL he signed can be treated like toilet paper?

and the ED also says that's it's the responsibility of the OES to plan for new orgs, which it seems to me mostly wasn't happening even during the Commodore's tenure (and one way to plan for them, would have been to figure out how to follow the PL and pay people enough to attract staff, right?). and so is it not a serious crime to not do what you're specifically ordered to do, compared to doing what you're specifically told not to?

just trying to understand here....

 

[onceuponatime]

When I was on org staff, the pay was such that it barely was worth while to go fetch your pay... a few dollars a week. I worked a day job to pay my bills. After a year or so, the lack of sleep got to me and I routed off.

Paying staff well has never really been a concern of LRH/Scientology. References that talk about making staff well paid are "PR" references. Scientology can point to those references and say, see, staff are supposed to be well paid, it's what LRH wanted! But then they have the handy references that talk about staff being cause over their own pay. So now when staff aren't paid, well, they are just out-ethics slackers. LRH does want them to be well paid but their own out-ethics do them in. Never mind how even McDonalds can figure out paying their staff minimum wage. The one hope of saving this universe, and somehow McDonalds pays their workers better (a lot better, staff would love to make even close to minimum wage). I'm not sure how Scientologists reconcile this, saving the universe with super secret advanced tech and somehow McDonalds is a way more successful business. SPs/psychs I guess (and off they go into conspiracy theories).

An important distinction Scientologists have to make is what references are just PR and what references are actually used/applied. LRH wrote a ton of references and many of them contradictory. Makes it very easy to point to some quote and say, look how LRH was a humanitarian and only wanted the best for staff members. You have to look at what Scientology actually does and not get confused by the cloud of references they try and use to disguise/hide things. I.e. man is basically good vs everything that's wrong with you is because you have overts.

would the org boards be in different places in a building, so a visitor might see one but not the other?

either way, it doesn't sound like like San Diego is one of the orgs that's got 50 staff. two dozen or so seems typical of what i've seen or heard of other orgs, and my impression is that's the norm these days.

and my quip about the org moonlighting, was pointing to a mistake of grammar or composition that LRH must have made, that was never proofread or corrected. if you take it literally -- which is what you're supposed to do, right? -- it makes no sense.

Not sure how San Diego is laid out, usually they are close together, but they could be at opposite ends of a hallway or something like that.

I agree, two dozen or so is most likely, but they could easily have anywhere from 5-50 staff on the other shift. Even with only 30ish staff I'd say they were above average, or at least not on the small size for an org in America. There are much smaller orgs.

Mistakes like that are all throughout his writings. Strange for the all-knowing one true hope for this universe, who rose above the bank, to make mistakes like that...

 

[Enthetan]

and the ED also says that's it's the responsibility of the OES to plan for new orgs, which it seems to me mostly wasn't happening even during the Commodore's tenure (and one way to plan for them, would have been to figure out how to follow the PL and pay people enough to attract staff, right?). and so is it not a serious crime to not do what you're specifically ordered to do, compared to doing what you're specifically told not to?

What I think he meant at the time of that PL, was for the Org to plan for missions in their area getting promoted in status to being orgs too, once the mission got enough staff. Later the missions came under the jurisdiction of SMI.

 

[Enthetan]

Paying staff well has never really been a concern of LRH/Scientology. References that talk about making staff well paid are "PR" references. Scientology can point to those references and say, see, staff are supposed to be well paid, it's what LRH wanted! But then they have the handy references that talk about staff being cause over their own pay. So now when staff aren't paid, well, they are just out-ethics slackers. LRH does want them to be well paid but their own out-ethics do them in. Never mind how even McDonalds can figure out paying their staff minimum wage. The one hope of saving this universe, and somehow McDonalds pays their workers better (a lot better, staff would love to make even close to minimum wage). I'm not sure how Scientologists reconcile this, saving the universe with super secret advanced tech and somehow McDonalds is a way more successful business. SPs/psychs I guess (and off they go into conspiracy theories).

In a real-world company, they are legally required to pay employees ahead of any other bills (except taxes of course), and well ahead of extracting any profits (sending cash up-lines to management).

The real-world priority list is (1) Taxes, (2) employees, (3) Utility bills, (4) other bills, (5) whatever is left is profit. The Scientology priority list is (1) Profits uplines to management, (2) Vital utility bills, (3) Other bills, (4) Staff is anything left over (seldom)

If Scientology was required to pay their staff according to what people of similar skill would be paid in the private sector, there would not be one org which would stay open longer than a week. Except maybe Flag.

 

[Enthetan]

The real-world priority list is (1) Taxes, (2) employees, (3) Utility bills, (4) other bills, (5) whatever is left is profit. The Scientology priority list is (1) Profits uplines to management, (2) Vital utility bills, (3) Other bills, (4) Staff is anything left over (seldom)

I just remembered, there was one big exception regarding staff getting paid : SALES personnel. Sales commissions to reges, book sellers, and FSMs get paid off the top.

It tells you where LRH's priorities were.

Regular staff could starve, and be berated for "not making it go right to expand the Org". But if you were a high-producing sales person, you got paid up front according to your personal sales. None of this "units according to how well the org does" bullshit.

I remember when I was at Flag, I got a glance at a listing of how much various people were getting paid that week. The bookstore officer I think made around a thousand (as a Sea Org member).

Regges got paid a percentage of the money they brought in.

 

[onceuponatime]

In a real-world company, they are legally required to pay employees ahead of any other bills (except taxes of course), and well ahead of extracting any profits (sending cash up-lines to management).

The real-world priority list is (1) Taxes, (2) employees, (3) Utility bills, (4) other bills, (5) whatever is left is profit. The Scientology priority list is (1) Profits uplines to management, (2) Vital utility bills, (3) Other bills, (4) Staff is anything left over (seldom)

If Scientology was required to pay their staff according to what people of similar skill would be paid in the private sector, there would not be one org which would stay open longer than a week. Except maybe Flag.

I think if they were required to pay just minimum wage they couldn't keep the doors open, even at flag. 2000 staff working 40 hours at $10 an hour would be 800K per week. Once you add in payroll taxes, etc. You're probably right around a million per week. And that's just 40 hours, since Sea Org work 100+ hours per week you'd have to start paying them overtime. All of a sudden you need 3 million a week just for payroll at flag, and that's minimum wage. Even making 3 million a week Flag wouldn't survive. If you start thinking with comparable wog compensation it gets even worse.

I just remembered, there was one big exception regarding staff getting paid : SALES personnel. Sales commissions to reges, book sellers, and FSMs get paid off the top.

It tells you where LRH's priorities were.

Regular staff could starve, and be berated for "not making it go right to expand the Org". But if you were a high-producing sales person, you got paid up front according to your personal sales. None of this "units according to how well the org does" bullshit.

I remember when I was at Flag, I got a glance at a listing of how much various people were getting paid that week. The bookstore officer I think made around a thousand (as a Sea Org member).

Regges got paid a percentage of the money they brought in.

Yes, sales staff get more with commissions and everything. Though how much commission and from what has changed a lot over the years. I think SO reges might not be getting any commission these days. They'll still get better food and other non monetary stuff but they won't get 10% of whatever they sell in their pay. Some reges would make a ton of money if they did, can't have that in the SO.

 

[Enthetan]

They'll still get better food and other non monetary stuff but they won't get 10% of whatever they sell in their pay. Some reges would make a ton of money if they did, can't have that in the SO.

Non-staff FSMs get 10%. Staff regges I vaguely recall got around 2%

You would see Sea Org tours regges partnering with non-SO FSMs to go after prospects.

 

[TheSneakster]

Karen and I know many people who are still in but disaffected. They are under the radar. This gives us a basis for classification:

1. Active members on lines at Orgs
2. On the fence members who are undecided on whether to stay or blow given the punishments of leaving
3. Under the radar members who are done with Scn but pretend to be Scientologists to avoid Fair Game and losing their families
4. Bad SP's who speak out anonymously
5. Bad SP's who speak out publicly and don't give a F about OSA. They post here, Tony's blog, FB, interview with Leah
6. David Miscavige who has not picked up the cans in 25 years and is an unhandled No Case Gain

So I guess I classify under #5 on that list.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

.

I just remembered, there was one big exception regarding staff getting paid : SALES personnel. Sales commissions to reges, book sellers, and FSMs get paid off the top. It tells you where LRH's priorities were. Regular staff could starve, and be berated for "not making it go right to expand the Org". But if you were a high-producing sales person, you got paid up front according to your personal sales. None of this "units according to how well the org does" bullshit. I remember when I was at Flag, I got a glance at a listing of how much various people were getting paid that week. The bookstore officer I think made around a thousand (as a Sea Org member). Regges got paid a percentage of the money they brought in.

.
Remarkable observation!

If you produced book sales that week, you were paid a grand.

However, if you produced an OT, you were only paid $30-$40 for the week.

That is wildly out exchange. In fact, it's outrageous!

Because you were wildly overpaid for lying about producing an OT.

.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

.

I didn't personally go to Portland but most of our staff at Boston Org did, and much of the staff from all over the country and elsewhere. Here's a video from that time:

.

That video---total weirdness.

Scientologists jabbing their protest placards skywards and screaming "RELIGIOUS FREEDOM!!!"

If there was a class action suit against Scientology today and $500M was awarded, what percentage of those fanatically F/Ning protestors would step forward today to claim their pro-rata share of the dough?

My guess, 99%.

Same percentage of Scientologists who blow.

All that aside, I will give Scientology credit for trying to create a "Woodstock Moment" with twangy sing-songy folk songs with sanctimonious lyrics.

Little did the Scientology protesters know that while they were screaming "Religious Freedom" the gurus of Scientology were snickering and hoarding hundreds of millions of dollars in off-shore hidden accounts.

Religious freedom—no. Religious fraud—yes.

 

[flaglandbase]

At this point Miscavige would be lucky to have 2,500 Sea Orgers that are a net asset to his organization, and half of them are just putting up a show to fool the rich donors.

 

[Type4_PTS]

All that aside, I will give Scientology credit for trying to create a "Woodstock Moment" with twangy sing-songy folk songs with sanctimonious lyrics.

Some of those folk songs were written by and sung by Jon Batson. I met him when he came to Boston Org just after the Portland crusade and he played some of them for us back at that time, including a song entitled "Target Two". There is a studio version of it on this page, track #16.
It's not as good as the live version I heard but it will have to suffice as Jon did depart for Target Two back about five years ago.

Theta Sound Coffee House Live by Jon Batson on Apple Music

Album · 2003 · 18 Songs

music.apple.com

 

[onceuponatime]

Non-staff FSMs get 10%. Staff regges I vaguely recall got around 2%

You would see Sea Org tours regges partnering with non-SO FSMs to go after prospects.

That sounds about right for staff, SO members get nothing though. Of course, better meals, a car, etc. probably means they live like kings compared to average joe SO member.

 

[Enthetan]

That sounds about right for staff, SO members get nothing though. Of course, better meals, a car, etc. probably means they live like kings compared to average joe SO member.

No, I believe that Sea Org regges get sales commissions. Don't know the percent.

 

[onceuponatime]

No, I believe that Sea Org regges get sales commissions. Don't know the percent.

Maybe in the past, but for services I don't think they are earning anything these days. I know they used to get commissions but not anymore, not 100% sure on this though. They might still earn commissions from book sales, planetary dissem, etc.

 

[Riddick]

What I think he meant at the time of that PL, was for the Org to plan for missions in their area getting promoted in status to being orgs too, once the mission got enough staff. Later the missions came under the jurisdiction of SMI.

that's exactly why I joined the SF Mission during it's hey day, we were supposed to turn into the SF Celebrity Center, I fell for Hubbard's rhetoric to join the winning team, and we were at the time, winning, then the Time Magazine article came out, and all the sudden we we were not winning.

 

[Riddick]

I just remembered, there was one big exception regarding staff getting paid : SALES personnel. Sales commissions to reges, book sellers, and FSMs get paid off the top.

It tells you where LRH's priorities were.

Regular staff could starve, and be berated for "not making it go right to expand the Org". But if you were a high-producing sales person, you got paid up front according to your personal sales. None of this "units according to how well the org does" bullshit.

I remember when I was at Flag, I got a glance at a listing of how much various people were getting paid that week. The bookstore officer I think made around a thousand (as a Sea Org member).

Regges got paid a percentage of the money they brought in.

When I was on staff, a staff member selling a book got paid a commission for the book sales, I think it was 10% or 15%, I forget,, it came out of the book sales account which was not part of the GI or Gross Income, two separate accounting accounts. Thus the incentive to sell more books was for a staff to sell books, remember Hubbard said Books make Booms. I wrote thousands of Letters Out to CF, Central Files, and included a book promo piece (rhetoric). Every now and then I would a book commission.

This is where Hubbard made his money, selling books or words thru others. It's very clever.

 

[Karakorum]

i'd expect orgs would proudly post pictures of their whole staff to show off and perhaps demonstrate that they're already a quarter of the way to Saint Hill size (isn't that about what 50 would be?), or to picture a small crowd of say a hundred or so gathered for a big graduation or LRH's birthday. and i see nothing like that.

Right now Miscavige is still screaming at people: "Why didn't this org go Saint Hill size yet?!"

But look at it this way, his successor will be happy if he'll be able to shout: "Why didn't this org go Pasadena 2019 size yet?!"



This thing is going towards a dwindling spiral fighting an unwinnable battle against the lifespan of converts from the 1960s and 1970s.

 

[onceuponatime]

Right now Miscavige is still screaming at people: "Why didn't this org go Saint Hill size yet?!"

But look at it this way, his successor will be happy if he'll be able to shout: "Why didn't this org go Pasadena 2019 size yet?!"



This thing is going towards a dwindling spiral fighting an unwinnable battle against the lifespan of converts from the 1960s and 1970s.

"Pasadena 2019 size" might become the new goal, that org was being run hard during the Chase wave. I don't think Scientology realizes how good they had it during the Chase wave. They will probably look back on those years as the golden years. As Covid comes to a close and they lift restrictions they will be pushing to hit the highs they had during the Chase wave, and they won't come close.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

From over at Mike Rinder's Thursday Funnies, here's presumably all the staff and public that they could gather in the SF org at some point recently: