Soooo was there anything you guys actually liked about Scientology?

Cat's Squirrel

Well-known member
And, if she hasn't cut you off by now, "Did you know that David Miscavige's 'withhold,' from Scientologists, is that there are no more OT levels, and Scientology does not have a bridge to OT."
True, I don't think that's his only withhold though. The fact that he's living high off the hog from donations which they are being told are essential to secure the survival of Scn would be another big one, especially considering how big a sacrifice those donations are for the parishioners concerned.
 

james087

Member
Attached is the latest conversation.

Edit* She never called.
Much thanks to @PirateAndBum @F.Bullbait for softening the blow.


Hi Sheila,

I think what you've described there is a textbook sociopath. Evil is something else, and I largely agree with what Scott Peck said about it;.
I have a story on this subject that you 2 might find interesting. A few terms: Te = Extroverted Thinking, Fi = Introverted Feeling. Some MBTI terms.

About 6 years ago I was looking for a job and that same depressed friend I mentioned suggested I go apply at this startup named Medical Marijuana Tampa. Their whole shtick was teaching classes on the history of marijuana (most of it exaggerated), about CBD, and instead of teaching people to grow marijuana (illegal) they taught them to grow tomatoes instead. Thousands lined up! We were on the news and the money just rolled in. And due to some erroneous assumptions based on my past performance I was given the IT director position (close to 6figs). That's where I met and became friends with Hazael.

Haz was studying to become a doctor (got to watch brain surgery in person and everything) just like his dad, but wanted to be his own person and do his own thing. He was at the company as a businessman and was going to duplicate and spread what the company was doing to another part of Florida. Unfortunately for us FL decided at that time they didn't want to make CBD or growing pot legal so our company went under. Haz had ties with many people in politics or had power so he wasn't going to just throw in the towel. That's when Haz and I decided to strike out on our own and he introduces me to his friend Harris.

Harris had a bulging forehead, his own lab setup in his beautiful pristine home, and transferred dead bodies for a living... His reading material consists of business magazines and books on famous murderers... The artwork in his home invoked the emotion of being blood frenzied so to speak. When I conversed with him I noticed he would notice my insecurities and speak in a way that would make most people become even more anxious, but for me it just increased my self awareness, made me admit to what he was indirectly communicating releasing me from the anxiety, and doing the exact opposite of what he wanted. It made me laugh and him annoyed, but just made me like him even more. At the time my Fi was still entirely suppressed so I didn't feel like anything was wrong with this situation. Te was starting to wake up so I started looking up words in the dictionary for the first time in my life and was particularly impressed by Harris's company name 'Gilt-edge Consulting'. I was also quite fond of his analogy that killing someone for the first time is like losing your virginity...

The most surprising thing I found about Harris was he "wanted to make the world a better place". I kept thinking WTF, how can you even say that and actually mean it. Well, he felt the world needed more people like him. That's why he wanted kids. That's why he took people like Haz under his wing so that he might teach them how to have an edge over their guilt so to speak. Unfortunately for Haz this was a big factor in him losing his sanity. Haz was drawn to Harris because he felt that suppressing his Fi was the best way to survive. I had no such belief. I was just suppressed. The only way I was able to figure out that this wasn't a good situation was taking psilocybin triggering neurogenesis while in their company. My mind STILL wasn't willing to disclose the whole picture or why I was suppressed (or the fact that I was suppressed) to begin with, but my emotions were overflowing to the point they started attacking my body. I at least could be reflective of that and finally could face the fact that Harris was exactly who he was telling me he was from the very beginning. So I got out of there and was like well that wasn't the answer on to the next adventure (after wallowing in pain for a couple years).

This was all just a long winded way of saying I agree with you. I had the hope that somehow someway I would figure out what was wrong in my life. People are willing to pay a lot of money, or in my case do just about anything, if someone says they have the answer. Hope sells.
 

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DanLocke

Member
Just a general public pre-clear here. 4 years ago I did about 3 months of study, joined the church and then quit less than a month later.

Things I found useful:
As someone who formerly couldn't see his own emotions, I found Hubbard's whole "tone-scale" chart to be pretty useful.
I was formerly pretty illiterate, special-ed, so I found study tech to be "a godsend".
I currently can't really do self-analysis without immediately plummeting my emotions, so at the very least it increased my self awareness of my own suffering.
I felt the 1 free hour session of auditing I received had a lot of impact. My entire life I felt like I couldn't get angry. It was beyond me. But after that 1 session I was ready to take the chair I was sitting on and smash it into the ground. Oh mannn did I tear into the staff when they tried to stop me from leaving. Basically catharsis.

I'm currently reading Dianetics. I thought auditing with a partner would be a good experience? Thoughts?
Had huge wins in Scientology and Dianetics auditing and training. Lots and lots of co-auditing. Great big wins. Use it every day. Find someone to co-audit. If you come back here you'll probably meet people who will make nothing of them. I hope not. Usually, when I post in forums like this it's like saying "All lives matter" or rooting for only boys in Boy Scouts. Let's see what happens! :)
 

james087

Member
If you come back here you'll probably meet people who will make nothing of them. I hope not. Usually, when I post in forums like this it's like saying "All lives matter" or rooting for only boys in Boy Scouts. Let's see what happens! :)
Dan, just so we're on the same page: where does 'here' refer to? the church? What do you mean by 'I'll probably meet people who will make nothing of them'? Who is them? Ex members?

I do get the feeling you probably don't share a very popular opinion on ex-Scientologist forums
Ya lets talk on here and see what happens!

edit* I found a pretty nice quote from LRH the other day. Page 184 in Dianetics
"If a man can simply be convinced he has been fighting shadows or if he can be persuaded to hang his fears on some indicated cause, whether that cause is true or not, he can be benefited. Sometimes he can be "educated" into a strong faith in some deity or cult which will cause him to feel so invulnerable that he rises above his engrams".
 
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Bill

Well-known member
Had huge wins in Scientology and Dianetics auditing and training. Lots and lots of co-auditing. Great big wins. Use it every day. Find someone to co-audit. If you come back here you'll probably meet people who will make nothing of them. I hope not. Usually, when I post in forums like this it's like saying "All lives matter" or rooting for only boys in Boy Scouts. Let's see what happens! :)
That's great. It is well-known that some people react well to the activity of auditing. No problem. The fact that you like auditing is not a problem.

It is also well-known that Scientology has never produced the specific, miraculous results promised. That is: No releases, no Clears, no operating thetans, no homo novis. The population of active Scientologists as a whole does not exhibit any exceptional qualities, successes or contributions to society.

If your intention is to recruit more believers into Scientology with promises that have no basis in reality, then that's not a worthy activity. If you only wish to "share the wins" then, well, fine ... but this might not be the correct venue for that. Try an "independent Scientology" forum for a more welcoming environment.
 
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james087

Member
Oh I get it. 'them' refers to his wins. Here is a quote that helped me wrap my head around my own experience.

Not to discount your win in any way, but most people addressing childhood incidents for the first time in any psychological or psychiatric counseling session often get the Big Bang win pretty early on, if not the first session. Getting a person to go into a session for the first time is the hardest part. Especially for men. Once that hurdle is out of the way and a person is willing to be introspective, the realizations just roll.

It’s great they got your barriers down, but just criminal that it was to get you to associate It as something special about Scientology.
 

Veda

Well-known member
Dan, just so we're on the same page: where does 'here' refer to? the church? What do you mean by 'I'll probably meet people who will make nothing of them'? Who is them? Ex members?

I do get the feeling you probably don't share a very popular opinion on ex-Scientologist forums
Ya lets talk on here and see what happens!

edit* I found a pretty nice quote from LRH the other day. Page 184 in Dianetics
"If a man can simply be convinced he has been fighting shadows or if he can be persuaded to hang his fears on some indicated cause, whether that cause is true or not, he can be benefited. Sometimes he can be "educated" into a strong faith in some deity or cult which will cause him to feel so invulnerable that he rises above his engrams".
"Some indicated cause."

That how Hubbard rebounded after his 1966/1967 mental collapse in the aftermath of the Rhodesian debacle. He invented Incident 2 and Xenu, and Incident 1, as the "indicated cause" of the problem, and became the "Commodore" of the "Sea Org," with the stated aim of salvaging this sector of the galaxy from a super engram.
 

Veda

Well-known member
-snip-

It is also well-known that Scientology has never produced the specific, miraculous results promised.

-snip-
In retrospect that's quite true, but some people can sometimes have remarkable experiences.

When I spent a year auditing people, after resigning my $cientology membership, long long ago, I had a "pc" who was about to leave for a family reunion in Canada. This resulted in several days, before he left, with nothing to do, as we had completed a major action and there was no time to begin a new major action.

Rather than do nothing with a "pc" whom I had audited daily for many weeks, I ran an old, abandoned, Identity/Listing Help process circa 1957/58. It would be accurate to say it blew the person's mind in a good way.

Here and there, Hubbard - and those contributing ideas and techniques to him - did touch on some interesting stuff but, ultimately, Hubbard chose to create an assembly line which turned square ball bearings into round ball bearings.
 

Veda

Well-known member
In retrospect that's quite true, but some people can sometimes have remarkable experiences.

When I spent a year auditing people, after resigning my $cientology membership, long long ago, I had a "pc" who was about to leave for a family reunion in Canada. This resulted in several days, before he left, with nothing to do, as we had completed a major action and there was no time to begin a new major action.

Rather than do nothing with a "pc" whom I had audited daily for many weeks, I ran an old, abandoned, Identity/Listing Help process circa 1957/58. It would be accurate to say it blew the person's mind in a good way.

Here and there, Hubbard - and those contributing ideas and techniques to him - did touch on some interesting stuff but, ultimately, Hubbard chose to create an assembly line which turned square ball bearings into round ball bearings.
Perhaps I should elaborate. One if the first things I did after leaving Scientology was to explore auditing outside the red tape and meddling of the organization. My main "pc" was someone I audited pretty much from scratch - someone with very little Scientology indoctrination.

It was a productive and maturing time.


This was written mainly for DanLocke, in the hope that he joins the conversion.
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
Perhaps I should elaborate. One if the first things I did after leaving Scientology was to explore auditing outside the red tape and meddling of the organization. My main "pc" was someone I audited pretty much from scratch - someone with very little Scientology indoctrination.

It was a productive and maturing time.


This was written mainly for DanLocke, in the hope that he joins the conversion.
I hope you mean to say that there is no nirvana of clear or OT?

Don't you think?

Nirvana was what the Buddists were after, and Hubbard sort of explained he had the techniques, auditing, to do it. But Hubbard never achieved nirvana thru his auditing techniques. Nor has anybody else. Don't you think?
 

james087

Member
I hope you mean to say that there is no nirvana of clear or OT?

Don't you think?

Nirvana was what the Buddists were after, and Hubbard sort of explained he had the techniques, auditing, to do it. But Hubbard never achieved nirvana thru his auditing techniques. Nor has anybody else. Don't you think?
"There is no evidence of any kind that anybody ever achieves nirvana. But I can give you lots of evidence that man, with what we know right here in this school, can achieve a very happy and productive state of being. We know about that; we don’t know about the other."

- Hubbard, L. Ron. (1952-02-02) Mysticism. Professional Course Lectures. Wichita, Kansas.

 

DanLocke

Member
That's great. It is well-known that some people react well to the activity of auditing. No problem. The fact that you like auditing is not a problem.

It is also well-known that Scientology has never produced the specific, miraculous results promised. That is: No releases, no Clears, no operating thetans, no homo novis. The population of active Scientologists as a whole does not exhibit any exceptional qualities, successes or contributions to society.

If your intention is to recruit more believers into Scientology with promises that have no basis in reality, then that's not a worthy activity. If you only wish to "share the wins" then, well, fine ... but this might not be the correct venue for that. Try an "independent Scientology" forum for a more welcoming environment.
I am here just to communicate. No agenda that I am aware of. I generally reply candidly and sincerely. If you like that, we are fine, if you don't, I'm fine. I've been kicked out of a lot of these sorts of forums. I have always been civil, but not often in alignment with all members.

If you don't like what I have to say, either deal with it or complain to moderators. Do whatever you like; I'll be OK with it,

Personally I have found it best to mine for the benefit of all past and current activities I have been or am involved in. I do my best to "ignore the losses". I have not found that to be the prevailing attitude about the Scientology experience from exes. But that's the attitude I have decided to adopt and keep in place.
 

Bill

Well-known member
I am here just to communicate. No agenda that I am aware of. I generally reply candidly and sincerely. If you like that, we are fine, if you don't, I'm fine. I've been kicked out of a lot of these sorts of forums. I have always been civil, but not often in alignment with all members.

If you don't like what I have to say, either deal with it or complain to moderators. Do whatever you like; I'll be OK with it,

Personally I have found it best to mine for the benefit of all past and current activities I have been or am involved in. I do my best to "ignore the losses". I have not found that to be the prevailing attitude about the Scientology experience from exes. But that's the attitude I have decided to adopt and keep in place.
I did not lie. Your liking Scientology auditing is no problem with me. While I do not understand why you would praise Scientology here, knowing the opinions of many here, I have no problem with you doing so. Others have and, I am sure, will in the future.

My opinion is that there is a ton of bad in Scientology. The bad was intentionally woven in by Hubbard to trick and entrap. Why bother when all reported, potential gains can be obtained from other sources, without the risks inherent in Scientology?
 

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
I am here just to communicate. No agenda that I am aware of. I generally reply candidly and sincerely. If you like that, we are fine, if you don't, I'm fine. I've been kicked out of a lot of these sorts of forums. I have always been civil, but not often in alignment with all members.

If you don't like what I have to say, either deal with it or complain to moderators. Do whatever you like; I'll be OK with it,

Personally I have found it best to mine for the benefit of all past and current activities I have been or am involved in. I do my best to "ignore the losses". I have not found that to be the prevailing attitude about the Scientology experience from exes. But that's the attitude I have decided to adopt and keep in place.
A friend that I was on staff with for five years or so is still in. He has married and now they have two teenagers. Both children will soon be regged for the S.O., this I know for reasons that I cannot go into at this time. He "searched" the internet about scn before he made the plunge to go down it's path. He did not find compelling evidence on the internet to not pursue it. Now he and his wife have achieved the state of clear, and they are heavily involved, in spite of his preliminary investigation.

I only add this here because whatever attempt that he made at that time did not uncover much in the way of deterrents. There is much one could say on this, I acknowledge. But what I see is a good person and his wife still in the trap, as well as the future of two young children and all that entails.

From where I sit, the freedom that you enjoy in what you say about the cult, good or bad, could affect others. Maybe what you don't say could be included in that.

I for one, sir, will let others know whenever I can that SCIENTOLOGY CONTAINS EVIL. That is the way that I see that, and communicate this whenever I can.
 

Veda

Well-known member


Re-posting your opening post from seven months ago, which is followed by a two page thread with a number interesting posts. The thread can be seen by clicking the arrow in the circle.

I was involved with Scientology for years. Primarily as a staff member. Not a fan at all of the movement ("Clearing Earth") or the management. Also the way that it was marketed.

But, I very much like a lot of the tech.

Pertinent to discussion here is that I believe the management of Scientology, and Ron's own ideas about how to promulgate it, choked off a lot of its potential use. A metaphor I have is to imagine Euclid codifying geometry and deciding that it was potentially dangerous in the wrong hands, and determining that it had to be policed in its use. He then figured out Greek architecture and said "these are the approved uses - anything else is squirrel and I'll have your head if you do anything else with it" - if that were to happen, we'd have greek architecture everywhere. A nice "look", but we'd have missed out on many nice creations if that were to have been the case.

I was only a "public" Scientology for a short time. Most of my time I was on post. As crew, we were not encouraged to "talk tech" at all, other than, perhaps, to a word clearer. Due to that, I think we were sort of stuck on doric columns in a way, and we never really explored the subject.

I was heartened to hear a talk by Pam Kemp years ago, where she said that Ron had told her that he wanted her to know the tech so well that she (or any other student) could invent their own processes. I remember thinking while listening to that, "Where did that Ron Hubbard go?"

I understand "Standard Tech". I don't oppose Greek Architecture. I am fond of both. But, I don't think that's the farthest reach of the tech by a long shot.

One more thing - I think that conversation and discussion are amazing tools for living. I thing Scientologists should talk more and look more and discover more and experiment more and look at life and the tech as an opportunity for some adventure with experimentation.

What's all this add up to? I'd like to find more people who are still capable of looking at Scientology appreciatively rather than with a steely-eyed glare, and analytically rather than skeptically. I think that there's value yet to be discovered in its application. I'd like to find other people to discuss the subject with, in an attitude of curiosity.

Takers?
As for your recently expressed view of "finding it best to mine for the benefit of all past or current activities," IMO, that's a healthy outlook; however, of course, it's not an absolute, as there are other people who are in the midst of loss, turmoil and confusion resulting from what is sometimes called the "dark side" of Scientology. And there are others who are vulnerable to this "dark side," who might benefit from being alerted as to its existence.

I've long expressed the view that a thorough inoculation, to protect a person from the "dark side" of Scientology, necessitates a description of the "positives" in Scientology, as the "positives" are part of what is often used to attract a person.

An example of an attempt at such a description: Ex Scientologist - The Scientological Onion

A person, new to Scientology, who has had one genuinely good experience with Scientology will tend to ignore those telling him that it's "all bad."

 

Bill

Well-known member
I've long expressed the view that a thorough inoculation, to protect a person from the "dark side" of Scientology, necessitates a description of the "positives" in Scientology, as the "positives" are part of what is often used to attract a person.
I understand your point but that actually isn't what usually happens when a "happy Scientologist" posts here. They don't "innoculate" because they only find Scientology positive and only talk about the "good parts". There is no acknowledgement of the significant, harmful side. That's why I try to always respond the way I do -- the majority of Hubbard's "tech" is harmful or, at best, useless. Little has been proven useful and none proven exceptionally beneficial.
A person, new to Scientology, who has had one genuinely good experience with Scientology will tend to ignore those telling him that it's "all bad."
When speaking to a True Believer, one must have a different approach. However, only talking about how good Scientology is to a Scientologist will not help them escape the trap. And it is a trap.
 

Chuck J.

Election Fraud Has Consequences
"There is no evidence of any kind that anybody ever achieves nirvana. But I can give you lots of evidence that man, with what we know right here in this school, can achieve a very happy and productive state of being. We know about that; we don’t know about the other."

- Hubbard, L. Ron. (1952-02-02) Mysticism. Professional Course Lectures. Wichita, Kansas.

James, a little bit out of my normal run of posting to comment on this subject, but, auditing is mostly a hit or miss situation. Even tho' Hubbard made a Grade Chart and attempted to be comprehensive and make everyone on the auditing assembly line a 'round ball-bearing' it doesn't work like that, for the simple reason everyone is different and has to be approached different than the last guy.

When auditing 'hits' you can get blown way high, 'up the pole.' Or as Alan Walter and Knowledgism calls it, an Ascension Experience. The problem is staying there. It happened to me in 1985, I got blown way high completely, it lasted 5 months. I still felt good after that and did not crash completely but, well there ya go. It didn't last.

One important thing to remember. Hubbard didn't invent the fact that people are spiritual beings, he invented a nomenclature to describe it, sometimes it's a good nomenclature, sometimes it's full of shit.
 

james087

Member
James, a little bit out of my normal run of posting to comment on this subject, but, auditing is mostly a hit or miss situation. Even tho' Hubbard made a Grade Chart and attempted to be comprehensive and make everyone on the auditing assembly line a 'round ball-bearing' it doesn't work like that, for the simple reason everyone is different and has to be approached different than the last guy.

When auditing 'hits' you can get blown way high, 'up the pole.' Or as Alan Walter and Knowledgism calls it, an Ascension Experience. The problem is staying there. It happened to me in 1985, I got blown way high completely, it lasted 5 months. I still felt good after that and did not crash completely but, well there ya go. It didn't last.

One important thing to remember. Hubbard didn't invent the fact that people are spiritual beings, he invented a nomenclature to describe it, sometimes it's a good nomenclature, sometimes it's full of shit.
I'm not sure how to respond. I only posted it for the sake of true information. Hubbard made it clear he didn't believe in Nirvana. Hubbard made a lot of wild false claims, but Nirvana wasn't one of them. I can definitely see people telling themselves they can achieve Nirvana through such techniques (due to his wild claims), and I imagine Hubbard would be just fine with that.
 

Chuck J.

Election Fraud Has Consequences
I'm not sure how to respond. I only posted it for the sake of true information. Hubbard made it clear he didn't believe in Nirvana. Hubbard made a lot of wild false claims, but Nirvana wasn't one of them. I can definitely see people telling themselves they can achieve Nirvana through such techniques (due to his wild claims), and I imagine Hubbard would be just fine with that.
My post was to say that yes, you can get sometimes a lot from auditing. Whether it stays is a different story.
 
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