False flag operations and fake personas

[HelluvaHoax!]

I would like to see that too. It is not unreasonable to want such a thing. Doesn't mean it will happen. And if it doesn't happen it doesn't mean there is something sinister going on.

It does not lessen what Mike has done to bring to light what he has about the co$. He is worthy of great praise for that.

Agreed, Mike is not up to anything sinister unless someone has proof. Nobody has any proof.

To imply/insinuate that Rinder is up to something sinister--without any slightest proof--is itself sinister.

I have posted suggestions to Mike Rinder in the past (see old ESMB) that invited him to "tell all" in any way that he wanted to. He later (not from my prompting) DID do exactly that. Far more effectively than I ever imagined could be done, by means of his hit TV show THE AFTERMATH! What is not to love about that?

I even wrote out a descriptive way he could do it and make $$$, by writing a sensational tattle-tale booked called "ACCEPTABLE TRUTH". I never felt any slightest urge to CRITICIZE him or HOLD HIM UP FOR RIDICULE or to SHAME HIM for "withholding" or to insinuate dozens upon dozens times (as Karakorum has) that he is hiding things.

In my view, while people are perfectly free to defame or criticize anyone they choose, others are also free to give opinions about why do-nothing armchair critics feel the compulsion to discredit individuals who have done something that is extraordinarily difficult---to create a viral hit TV SERIES that exposed the cult in ways there were far more compelling and far more viewed than any other comparable event.

I think this aspect of Karakorum's campaign should be openly exposed to sunlight.

Does anyone doubt the near miraculous odds against creating even one hour-long tv documentary? How much more formidably difficult would it be to create an entire season of hit shows? Or, the even more impossible odds of creating a hit tv SERIES that runs multi-season?! NOBODY HAS EVER DONE THAT IN SCIENTOLOGY'S 70 YEAR HISTORY. Yet, Leah and Mike did it.

But that's not good enough, Rinder still has failed to do enough? And that charge is repetitively leveled by someone who has done absolutely nothing at all? LOL

I'm not a big fan of hypocrisy and since Karakorum admits to being a cult thug while on staff, let's see Karakorum's O/W writeup before worrying about the people he is trying to publicly shame & sec check.

I choose to celebrate great achievements and the people who made them happen, rather than try to tear them down with non-stop insinuations. Mike and Leah are praiseworthy heroes in my view. I happily stand and applaud their courage and success!

.

 

[PirateAndBum]

I wasn't saying you used the word sinister. Those that criticize Rinder for his role in OSA seem to want to make it sinister is what I was saying.

I agree that Mike should be applauded for what he has done. I can also understand that some people think he hasn't told all he knows. I think that has some probability of being the case. It doesn't lessen my appreciation for his guts to do what he has done, nor do I criticize him because I don't know if that is really true or not and even if it is true there may be reasons for his not doing so that I am not privy to. Attacking Rinder just furthers the co$ agenda of dead-agenting critics. Not something I'm in favor of at all.

Karakorum is also a co$ critic. I don't think she should be jumped on quite so relentlessly for her opinion.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

I don't think she should be jumped on quite so relentlessly for her opinion.

How about Alanzo? Can we continue to jump on him?

We need someone.

Don't look at the spoiler if you get easily
"triggered" by humor tinged with truth.

Spoiler: From the Alanzo Files

​

 

[PirateAndBum]

Sure, you can jump on Alanzo.

You can jump on Karakorum too.

It just gets to be a bit much at times when HH trains his guns on a member of the board.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I wasn't saying you used the word sinister. Those that criticize Rinder for his role in OSA seem to want to make it sinister is what I was saying.

I agree that Mike should be applauded for what he has done. I can also understand that some people think he hasn't told all he knows. I think that has some probability of being the case. It doesn't lessen my appreciation for his guts to do what he has done, nor do I criticize him because I don't know if that is really true or not and even if it is true there may be reasons for his not doing so that I am not privy to. Attacking Rinder just furthers the co$ agenda of dead-agenting critics. Not something I'm in favor of at all.

Karakorum is also a co$ critic. I don't think she should be jumped on quite so relentlessly for her opinion.

After I started to post my comment I re-read your point and realized that I had misunderstood what you meant. So I corrected my post before you let me know. Is it possible for me to get some kind of jumbo framed certificate that attests that I have achieved the state of CLC? (com-lag Clear) lol

I do appreciate all you said, including the part that he should not be jumped on quite so relentlessly for his opinion. But, honestly, nobody FORCED him to stalk Rinder with insinuations/innuendoes. If someone wants to take it upon themselves to moralize and sermonize and criticize Rinder's/Remini's spectacular whistleblowing, then they are inviting people to comment on it. That in my opinion is not "jumping on" someone. That's just rational discourse where the Grand Inquisitor who is morally perfect is challenged directly to put up or shut up. And to also put up their own stellar achievements that demonstrate their own credibility and effectiveness. I don't remember Karakorum having a heavily viewed years-long BLOG like Rinder or a viral twitter and social media presence like Leah. I never saw Karakorum produce a viral hit, multi-season tv series like Mike/Leah. I never saw Karakorum write a big-splash book like Leah. I never saw Karakorum on Larry King's show or Joe Rogans podcast or the other dozens of top rated tv interview-shows that Leah hit a home run with.

In the reality I live in, Karakorum comes to the table with nothing but theories and nasty insinuations about Mike. Nothing but laughably amateurish advice to both Mike/Leah on how to do whistleblowing correctly. Is this supposed to be some kind of COSMIC JOKE, coming from a person who never did anything at all?

I have passion for great people who do great things. I have had the good fortune in business/life of meeting or collaborating with brilliant visionaries and achievers. They are very special people indeed. They are human so they aren't perfect, but who would dream of trying to tear down the fabric of the admiration, respect and love that people have for them? I find that to be well-worth questioning. If Karakorum doesn't like me posting, he can answer my posts. I frankly don't care if he does or doesn't, and respect his decision to block my posts. If I were posting what he posts, I'd block me too! LOL

.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

It just to be a bit much at times when HH trains his guns on a member of the board.

.
Well, I guess that's all part of the bargain of allowing a person like me to be in a discussion forum. If people want to laugh they have to also be willing to cry. It's a Yin/Yang thing, LOL.

I don't contest the fact that I react strongly to things, both good and bad things. If I didn't say what I really thought there would be no point in joining a discussion group that I could see.

If the board thinks that I am too unfiltered, I am happy to retire and would thank everyone for the truly great and incredibly fun and educational experience! Seriously, it would not shock or hurt me to bow to the wishes of the board or your preference that I took a vacation. There are many times in human history where people pushed the envelope of what is proper to say. I remember reading about and seeing videos of Lenny Bruce, for example, who was actually ARRESTED BY POLICE while he was on stage performing stand-up comedy and social satire. He had gone too far, the culture at that time deemed. By today's standards he was entirely tame and nobody would even pay attention to his vulgarities or "bad words" if he was on TV.

I guess what I am saying is that what is considered polite or acceptable discourse constantly changes. I respect that inevitablity but it doesn't mean that I have to worry about speaking/writing my own opinions.

Maybe a better question is DO MY OPINIONS harm others? Or is it better for this particular discussion board if members were moderate in expressing their opinions because it made a better experience for the rest of the board. I can live with any answer to these questions. I have never asked anyone to bend rules for me. It's totally okay to ask me to take a leave or "hit the road" if my criticism of the criticizers is too much for them to handle and respond to.

Again, I didn't force Karakorum to run a nasty innuendo crusade vs. Mike/Leah. He did that on his own.

I don't have anything except great feelings about you and this board. Just say the word and I can remove myself so that the board is better. I really mean that!

Best!
hh

 

[Lee #28]

Oh, HH, stop being such a panty-waist..... ( is it ok to say that?)

You can take a little criticism and ribbing....

 

[Zertel]

Are members allowed to take a Sabbatical from this Monastery and then return? Or how about a Leave Of Absence during the Planetary Bullbait, although the Bullbait seems to be flattening in the United States.

 

[Karen#1]

Helluva Hoax is a beloved member of ESMB, by actual statistic ~~ see below.
He is provacative, eloquent,. factual, stimulating and above all funny as hell.

And I agree 1000% that one when has woken up and crossed over and joined those that expose, and does HUGE amounts of shows and media~~ Mike Rinder has single handedly done more than most anyone to expose the cult
~~demanding inquisitional style of past deeds is hateful and obnoxious and serves no purpose

NO one is going to give HH an OK to leave ~~What would we DO without him ? LOL

 

[Dark]

a lot of big words in this thread now, but i do know what cash is. needs to be in USD and i will pretend not to like EO Kara. i mean who likes EOs anyway, except those bdsmdm peeps.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I think we should all ignore Alanzo's weak attempt to cause trouble here now (it was funny though and we all needed a laugh after the last few weeks of real world chaos).

Kara has every right to her opinions and I'm happy that she feels free to voice them here, even though I disagree with some of them.

 

[Churchill]

Helluva Hoax is a beloved member of ESMB, by actual statistic ~~ see below.
He is provacative, eloquent,. factual, stimulating and above all funny as hell.

And I agree 1000% that one when has woken up and crossed over and joined those that expose, and does HUGE amounts of shows and media~~ Mike Rinder has single handedly done more than most anyone to expose the cult
~~demanding inquisitional style of past deeds is hateful and obnoxious and serves no purpose

NO one is going to give HH an OK to leave ~~What we DO without him ? LOL




View attachment 4233

Absolutely! This board is truly fortunate to have such a prolific, thoughtful, and brilliantly funny person as Helluvahoax sharing his observations and thoughts.
(Note to Karen: I have activated the “low-blay rill-dray“ and teams have been dispatched to all freeway underpasses and train and bus stations.)

 

[ILove2Lurk]

Next thing you know Alanzo will be accusing our dear @Kalle of being
sent in by the German Stasi because he's from Munich, likes ABBA, and
has many conspiracy stories that he tells on this thread. Not true.
We all know how ridiculous that is.

 

[Karakorum]

Thanks for all the understanding guys. I'm not saying you need to agree with anything I write: everyone has the right to call BS when you see it and I respect the fact that some consider some of my opinions to be BS. I'm also not saying you should trust me (or anyone else who does not post under her real name) with info you wouldn't share in public. Always stay safe!

At the same time, I'm glad nobody fell for Alanzo's "kiss of death" blog post and that none of you accused me of being an operator sent by Marty Rathbun
Because now that I think of it, that was probably the main idea behind his post.

~~demanding inquisitional style of past deeds is hateful and obnoxious and serves no purpose

To be fair, I am not really interested in "past deeds" or running an inquisition over personal stuff of Mike's. He could have kept all the info about his clashes with his ex-wife and family to himself and I wouldn't mind at all. I'm interested in what Mike knows about OSA operations, tactics and doctrine. Of all ex-scientologists he knows the most about OSA and his advice for us would be the most valuable of all. I think Mike could tell us 100x times more than Tory has (she was just a volunteer), but he is not doing that for years.
Mike has decided to share some of his personal intimate stuff about his family, but at the same time he decided not to share impersonal, purely doctrinal OSA information. I find this odd.

So my gripe is not so much about what Mike did in the past when he was in the SO. My gripe is that he has a vast knowledge of OSA operations and for some reason he doesn't seem to trust the community enough to share this knowledge with us. Thus I in turn don't have full trust in Mike.

Maybe he has some reasons , maybe not. I don't know and I'm not saying "Mike is guilty". I'm saying that given the facts and lack of info, I can't trust him 100% and I'm not entirely comfortable when I see him take a prominent role in the ex-scn community given that silence. I am entirely comfortable with most others: Jon Atack, C.Shelton, Tory, Leah, Astra etc.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

I'm preparing to read some pretty long rebuttals in the morning. Just sayin'.

 

[He-man]

Maybe a better question is DO MY OPINIONS harm others? Or is it better for this particular discussion board if members were moderate in expressing their opinions because it made a better experience for the rest of the board. I can live with any answer to these questions. I have never asked anyone to bend rules for me. It's totally okay to ask me to take a leave or "hit the road" if my criticism of the criticizers is too much for them to handle and respond to.

I don't think your opinions harm others.

It is a bit hypocritical to say that though, since you are one to always write to the "audience", and I do get the feeling that you do think others opinions are harmful. Is that not why you've been sitting arguing with a wall for weeks?

 

[ILove2Lurk]

I'm interested in what Mike knows about OSA operations, tactics and doctrine.

I'll just go ahead and short-circuit this tedious and unseemly battle over what
Mike Rinder knows. Otherwise, it'll never get solved for anyone. I know "google
is my friend" and I can find most anything I want with a few mouse clicks.

Here's a link to the OSA full hat OSA INT ED 508R. Most of the needed materials
are linked there, but are also available all over the place. They've been "in the wild"
on the Internet for decades, AFAIK.

Study assignment for Karakorum
Print out the checksheet. Three times through with all clay demos and I guarantee
you'll be smarter than Mike. You'll gain the knowledge to be able investigate and
destroy anyone with equanimity and calm . . . not that you or anyone else here
would want to.

All the issues are actual scriptures and cannot be altered. These are most likely
all the issues that Mike trained on for years. A treasure trove of stuff.

All the Guardian Office issues too, if anyone is interested. I don't think anything
is confidential or unavailable anymore.

As if I would not have an antivirus system that blocks trackers and fail to have "do not accept cookies" settings used.

You seem to have the computer skills down from what I can tell. No problem there.
You're probably skilled enough to use "Tor," if you were of a mindset to go that far.

Enjoy!

Spoiler

Footnote: I'm posting all this because I realize that Mike Rinder and OSA are of a concern
or curiosity to practically no one on the planet. Approximately 0.0000000769% of the Earth's
population cares about this issue. For real. Do the math. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Karakorum]

I'll just go ahead and short-circuit this tedious and unseemly battle over what
Mike Rinder knows. Otherwise, it'll never get solved for anyone. I know "google
is my friend" and I can find most anything I want with a few mouse clicks.

Here's a link to the OSA full hat OSA INT ED 508R. Most of the needed materials
are linked there, but are also available all over the place. They've been "in the wild"
on the Internet for decades, AFAIK.

I'm sorry, but that it not at all what I asked for.

1. That's fragmentary OSA docs from 1991. And the contents has things like HCOPL from the 60s and 70s, some of that I even recognize as having read way back inside. Vast majority is outdated Hubbard stuff, not recent or even relatively recent actual OSA operating doctrine. For example, you search this link for the word "internet" and you get 0 results. OSA has tactics and strateges for working with the internet - Tory already made that clear.
What is more: I just gave it a quick search for the few specialized OSA terms I was familiar with still at my old post. Terms like "active measures" or "grey propaganda" or just "grey" - again, got 0 results. If it doesn't even include definitions of grey disinfo or "active measures" then it is a very, very far cry from being a comprehensive, a decent source on OSA tactics.
Do you have a source that lists all "active measures" for example? Can you link to it?

2. Secondly, the "all process must be written down in a hat checksheet and followed exactly" - these sort of rules are for low level orgs. Inv doesn't function like that, CLO does not function like that. I have no reason to believe that OSA Int functioned like that.
When I was inside we were working with some processes and procedures that were explicitly not written down. This, as far as I know, was frequent practice ever since Snow White fell to pieces. Some things are not written down not to risk a leak or extraction by outside parties.
Yep: CoS at a certain level sanctions "verbal tech"

3. I'm familiar with the various OSA docs that have already been available online for years, I even used some of it jokingly in my photo post here.

5. So, where is the actual application and examples of real OSA ops in practice? Why, nowhere, because it is just a checksheet. Which is exactly the problem. Can you please provide me with the details of that pedophilia coverup op that involved Julian?
I guess you probably can't because you were not in charge of that and people weren't reporting to you about it. But they were reporting to Mike. He would know.

4. Lastly, if you believe that all that the ex-head of OSA knows is in the that checksheet, then mazel tov



So if your aim was to convince me that there is nothing valuable left that Mike can share, then I duly report that you have sadly failed. Please feel free to try again.

I'm posting all this because I realize that Mike Rinder and OSA are of a concern
or curiosity to practically no one on the planet. Approximately 0.0000000769% of the Earth's
population cares about this issue. For real. Do the math. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Most people on the planet are not ex-scientologists who speak out against the church and had run-ins with OSA in the past. Yet some of us are just that.

Please do the math for me, because I obviously fail to see the point you are trying to make. What is the point of bringing up the fact that scientology is tiny in the context of this discussion?

 

[ILove2Lurk]

. . .
Then I found out what I needed to know: Russian women are impossible to please.

What is more: I just gave it a quick search for the few specialized OSA terms I was familiar with still at my old post. Terms like "active measures" or "grey propaganda" or just "grey" - again, got 0 results. If it doesn't even include definitions of grey disinfo or "active measures" then it is a very, very far cry from being a comprehensive, a decent source on OSA tactics.

How about "opening the kimono" a bit and doing post on these terms and what you know and can share.
These terms sound intriguing.

You seem to have a specialized collection of terms and knowledge from what you just wrote that could
be shared. Share it with us. I would like to learn about those things.

Or does being open only apply to Mike?

Please do the math for me

Well the math from my spoiler is that about six people on any message board might be really interested
in your "hobby horse" issue of Mike and Julian and pedophilia. Most people would not ever read the post,
as it would be too creepy. We don't care about that stuff.

You're not reading all of @HelluvaHoax! long posts, so you're missing out on a lot of what's being discussed
about you in the thread. But that's OK. Probably better. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Karakorum]

How about "opening the kimono" a bit and doing post on these terms and what you know and can share.
These terms sound intriguing.

You seem to have a specialized collection of terms and knowledge from what you just wrote that could
be shared. Share it with us. I would like to learn about those things.

No problem, though my knowledge on these is nowhere near "extensive" or complete, because it was something that was rather peripheral to my post. Check my subsequent post below on these terms.

We were the enforcers dealing with internal threats, not external ones. The latter was Mike's job.

Now that I myself am outside, I kind of wish that back in the day I would have had more interest in how they deal with external threats. Of course, I would never have the time to do stuff outside my assigned lines
. . .

Then I found out what I needed to know: Russian women are impossible to please.

I'm not an expert on Russian women.

Well the math from my spoiler is that about six people on any message board might be really interested in your "hobby horse" issue of Mike and Julian and pedophilia. Most people would not ever read the post, as it would be too creepy. We don't care about that stuff.

So? I never claimed to be speaking for some immense mass of people. I mean, I assume there are more people than just me who would like to hear high-ranking ex-OSA members talk about OSA. But I am speaking in my name only.

People referred to my posts questioning why I would not trust Mike. This was my answer about my reasons and my train of thought. Even if no other person in the gullibxy would share this view, it would still remain my view. Numbers don't frighten or impress me.

You're not reading all of @HelluvaHoax! long posts, so you're missing out on a lot of what's being discussed about you in the thread. ¯

He's on ignore and I'm not reading any of his posts, long or short. He can now write whatever he wants about me until he goes blue in the face.