Scientologirl - New Independent Scientologist

[Edwardo]

2) Does AOGP support adoption by gay couples?

3) If AOGP supports adoption by heterosexual individuals, does AOGP also support adoption by gay individuals?

Whether they do or not, it looks like a bit of a dubious proposition for the adopted children:

“Less than 2 percent of children from intact, biological families reported experiencing sexual abuse of some nature, but that figure for children of same-sex couples is 23 percent.”

Is Gay Parenting Bad for the Kids? | National Review

In his new Social Science Journal study, Mark Regnerus poses a question: “How different are the adult children of parents who have same-sex relationships?” The answer to this — in both the academic…

www.nationalreview.com

 

[programmer_guy]

Captain Bill Robertson & Ron's Org - Chris Shelton's answer on this particular indie item

Captain Bill Robertson and “Ron’s Org”

Scientology has a colorful and checkered past, including some very interesting people who have taken part in it. Near the top of this list is Captain Bill Robertson, a fanatical Sea Org member who …

mncriticalthinking.com

 

[TheSneakster]

Captain Bill Robertson & Ron's Org - Chris Shelton's answer on this particular indie item

Captain Bill Robertson and “Ron’s Org”

Scientology has a colorful and checkered past, including some very interesting people who have taken part in it. Near the top of this list is Captain Bill Robertson, a fanatical Sea Org member who …

mncriticalthinking.com

Advanced Organization of the Great Plains (AOGP) is not a Bill Robertson Ron's Org and did not even exist while Bill Robertson was alive. Shelton's assertions about Ron's Org practices have no bearing on those of AOGP. Ron's Org is only one of maybe a dozen different Indie factions and their organizational policies and practices have nothing whatsoever to do with any other Indie faction.

AFAIK, AOGP does not pretend to be a church, does not have ministers and does not do weddings, so the person trolling for anti-gay responses failed to do even the most basic homework, first.

Also, Scientologirl appears to have left the building.

 

[programmer_guy]

IMO, bringing up topics about various independent Scientology groups is on-topic for this thread.
Yes, the various indie groups can do their cherry-picking.

 

[Helena Handbasket]

Hi there! Not sure I truly belong here as I'm not an ex Scientologist, rather, I'm "ex" from the Church - kinda, it was brief. Anyway, no doubt I'll run into some trolls with my introduction but for those curious about me: Scientologirl

Hey Scientologirl,

Wow! You've unleashed quite a firestorm of controversy here, and I hope you haven't been "run off" by the extreme negative views (more on that later). I wish I saw your OP earlier, before 8 pages of replies were added to it. I do hope you see my reply, and I do hope you continue to post in the future.

There are perhaps 3 categories of people to post to this board:

(1) Those who believe the subject is a complete and entire hoax, whose only REAL purpose is to make a bazillion bucks for the top guy. They are clearly in the majority here, and are very dyspathic towards anyone who has anything good to say about the subject. They like to point out that L. Ron Hubbard stole a lot of the concepts he then passed out as his own. I personally knew the person who came up with the idea of adding a Qual division to the org board; for her it was a great honor to have the Boss publish her concept with his name attached to it. (There were many other contributors to the tech who did the same thing and felt the same way.) Even the name Scientology was stolen from A. Nordenholz.

A big reason for the above is that LRH "oversold" his tech, promising results that we really only achieved by a few. When people didn't get ALL the results they were told they would get, they considered the entire subject a lie. One example is exteriorization -- the ability to be able, as a spirit, to exit the body without "dropping" it (meaning without disconnecting from it permanently, as in death). I was promised this many times, but I was never able to do so. Yet some people DO get stable gains from auditing.

(2) Those who figure that LRH had all the answers, but made big mistakes building up a constellation around it. Staff members are routinely harrassed to do more and work harder than they ever have before (and are punished if they don't) and are expected to be able to do their jobs perfectly, WITHOUT asking their bosses if it's okay. The Sea Organization in particular is a terrible trap akin to human trafficking; just one of their tricks is to demand somebody make a sale that evening or they won't be permitted to sleep that night.

(3) Those who feel had LRH had SOME answers but was not perfect -- that others, particularly those that came after him, were advancing and improving the tech. You seem to be in this latter group, and so am I. There's no reason that either of us should stop posting to this board, and if anyone doesn't like any of the newer Scientology-like practices, they shouldn't go to them.

May I point out, if you haven't already seen it, that one of the last sub-forums when you click the Forums tab is Freezone, Indy, and Other Flavors of Scientology? That might be a place to post if you don't want everyone to see it. (Although I usually post to General Scientology Discussion so that everyone WILL see it.)

I believe there is room on this board for ALL these groups.

And welcome aboard!

Helena

 

[Karakorum]

PS: Sorry about culturally misappropriating the "gay man" example.
I'm tuning over a new leaf and trying to appear more socially woke.

Shame, shame!

 

[TheSneakster]

IMO, bringing up topics about various independent Scientology groups is on-topic for this thread.
Yes, the various indie groups can do their cherry-picking.

No. What you did is offer what Chris Shelton says Ron's Org does as an answer to a set of questions specifically about AOGP.

It's like somebody asking how the Methodists treat gay people and answering with an article about the Roman Catholics.

Sure, you can do whatever you want (until you piss off the Admin), but I can always call out this sort of B/S.

Edit Addendum: By the way, how can you (and other like minded so-called "critics") loudly bitch about Scientologists blindly following every single word of Ron Hubbard - even when those words command or condone Evil; and, simultaneously bitch about Scientologists who are not blindly following every single word and deride our exercise of Free Will to not do Evil as "cherry-picking" ?

Why hasn't the massive cognitive dissonance made your head explode so we Indies don't have to put up with that sort of irrational nonsense ?

 

[Karakorum]

This message board is not the place for everyone. <snip>

It's just a matter of "wrong place," if I can borrow from the
Data Series. Nothing more, nothing less. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Best to find the place where you will be loved and appreciated.
Otherwise, you're wasting your life.

<snip>

PPS: This is definitely an "ex" board, not a "maybe" board. I've been
around since 2006-7 and have read a lion's share of the posts.

I guess its time I speak my mind about this in a serious manner, keeping the jokes on the side for a bit:


I feel that the culture of "purity" in the ex-Co$ world is counterproductive and detrimental.

Pushing away people who believe in most or some of the tech just keeps us weak and divided. If we continue to consider only those who abandoned 100% of the tech as the "master race" and everyone else as "immature and still doing baby steps", then we are just making it that much easier for Dave to practice divide&conquer on us.

Remember that the people who are still stuck inside Dave's church are going to be people who believe in the tech. If we want to help them and bring them out, we will need to cooperate with the independent Scientologists. Because they are the natural bridge (pardon the pun) and point of contact between us and the guys still suffering under Dave's yoke.

The more united and connected we all are, the harder it is for Dave to defeat us piecemeal and keep our friends and families forever in bondage inside the Co$

 

[Irayam]

SP declare for reading the Internet !

This shows how afraid CO$ is of the Internet. And, therefore, how weak are the powerful OTs...

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I guess its time I speak my mind about this in a serious manner, keeping the jokes on the side for a bit:


I feel that the culture of "purity" in the ex-Co$ world is counterproductive and detrimental.

Pushing away people who believe in most or some of the tech just keeps us weak and divided. If we continue to consider only those who abandoned 100% of the tech as the "master race" and everyone else as "immature and still doing baby steps", then we are just making it that much easier for Dave to practice divide&conquer on us.

Remember that the people who are still stuck inside Dave's church are going to be people who believe in the tech. If we want to help them and bring them out, we will need to cooperate with the independent Scientologists. Because they are the natural bridge (pardon the pun) and point of contact between us and the guys still suffering under Dave's yoke.

The more united and connected we all are, the harder it is for Dave to defeat us piecemeal and keep our friends and families forever in bondage inside the Co$

I know your intentions are good but I believe we are all individuals and will do, think and feel as we wish when we wish.

I left the cult and cultic/group thinking long ago and if I were to now sit here playing some weird imaginary war game with miscavige I'd feel I'm still connected and involved in the madness ... because I would be. We are not 'weak and divided' because we are not an organised cult, we are people chatting on a message board.

I'll continue to communicate to people here as I always have. I will never pretend to be connected and united to anyone (indie or not) just because it fits in with someone else's possible agenda to 'divide and conquer' us ... we may as well still be in the cult if we start doing that.

When and if people want to leave scientology they will leave, they are not in bondage ... I believe if a person really wants to get out they will, there is always a way.

 

[Dotey OT]

As for me, I have as a goal, although somewhat foolish, to get some of my old friends out that are still in. I have as a pet project one cycle that will bring out four people, if I do it right. That's four lives that can be saved. That is that attitude that I take. That project that I thought was dead recently came back to life. I think that my friend knows better, but can't yet face the facts. Two kids prime for the S.O. picking. I am taking some personal risk on this thing, you guys that read this don't know me and my life's setup, but that is the fact. I will go through hardship if it blows up, but it's two kids that are ripe for the S.O.

Many of us were on staff together and are/were friends. We felt like we were doing the best thing for ourselves and the planet. I have come to find through long hard won experience, and sifting through data, and inspecting my own "awareness" that I was wrong. Thoughts that I had that I pushed aside were correct. Anyone here who has tried to deal with die-hard currently still-in culties know of what I speak, that it is almost impossible to reason with them. When you see what was done to build up the cocoon around them, and you were once in on the other side, you know what I speak about.

This doesn't give a license for rudeness, especially to the people that now know to the people that don't. I know that there was sort of a no-sympathy attitude that existed towards wogs while I was in, and that attitude seems to be easy to develop to those that are blinded by the honeymoon effect of being lured to the sweet smell of the tek.

Nowadays, with the interwebs, it's hard to believe that anyone would be lured in. But it does happen. We all suspect the cult experiences a loss of bodies now, and if I were a betting man I would bet that the numbers are dwindling daily. But there is a bottom that is greater than zero, and we probably have not hit that point yet.

When you go to AOGP website, lrh's face is the wallpaper for the site. Really??? With all the data that is available on this man??

This young girl, as star struck with the effect that it has had on her, hasn't done the due diligence. Probably influenced by parents or older persons that can influence her.

To anyone that reads what she has written, you can see some of the "cocoon" data that is already being swallowed and believed.

Remember "Afraid to offend and scared to enforce"?

 

[Veda]

Advanced Organization of the Great Plains (AOGP) is not a Bill Robertson Ron's Org and did not even exist while Bill Robertson was alive. Shelton's assertions about Ron's Org practices have no bearing on those of AOGP. Ron's Org is only one of maybe a dozen different Indie factions and their organizational policies and practices have nothing whatsoever to do with any other Indie faction.

AFAIK, AOGP does not pretend to be a church, does not have ministers and does not do weddings, so the person trolling for anti-gay responses failed to do even the most basic homework, first.

Also, Scientologirl appears to have left the building.

According to the AOGP's own literature, it does offer an OT 8 level, which is a variation of Ron's Orgs OT8 also known as Excalibur.

From the Grade Chart below: "Handle the most secret and ancient barriers to OT, an organized attempt on the seventh dynamic to force thetans to conform to lower states of awareness..."

Ron's Orgs OT 8 (called Excalibur) was inspired by Hubbard's confidential HCOB OT 8 Student Briefing which was briefly on both the Class 8 course, and on New OT 8 on the Freewinds, and caused a fair amount of confusion, since It had no relationship to the New OT 8 that had been fashioned by then Senior Case Supervisor Ray Mithoff.

Essentially, Hubbard's 1980 OT 8 was an admission that the Bridge had not worked to produce OTs, with the cause being meddling from evil beings outside the MEST universe.

This is reminiscent of a conversation I had with a senior "tech" person from the AO of Los Angeles during the late 1970s, in which I was told that the old upper OT levels (old OT 5,6,7) were ineffective because of NOTs case, but now, with the NOTs materials, they would be effective. It was surprising to hear; and the same (temporary) openness occurred with the newly released NED course, which had replaced the Hubbard Standard Dianetics Course. "HSDC didn't actually erase somatics but, now, with NED," etc.

Wherever Hubbard was going with his 1980 OT 8, he never arrived, but Captain Bill seems to have taken his place and completed the level.

A variation of this, last time I looked, is offered by the AOGP.

____________________​

Despite Hubbard's guarantees to Scientologists, over the years, that there were many (fifteen or more) additional, already researched, and ready-to-go upper OT levels, there was no such thing, although there were stacks of incoherent ramblings by Hubbard.

An early stage of those ramblings, which became progressively more incoherent, and a (still mostly coherent but bizarre) sampling was the 1982 (non confidential) HCOB Pain and Sex, where Hubbard announced his discovery, from his advanced upper level research, that ancient psychiatrists invented sex eons ago to keep beings small. (This HCOB is better understood if read with the other HCOBs of the same time period.)

After this, there was very little from Hubbard, Scientologists assumed that he was doing extremely advanced research.

But he was not, and there are no additional OT levels from Hubbard, so that's a problem.

It's a problem for Miscavige, and also a problem for Independent Scientology.

What to do?

 

[Karakorum]

I know your intentions are good but I believe we are all individuals and will do, think and feel as we wish when we wish.

Yes, and when I see people acting in an unnecessarily hostile or detrimental manner, then I as an individual will criticize that.

But do not worry, the days of me coercing people to behave in a certain way are over. I'm just voicing my opinion.

I left the cult and cultic/group thinking long ago and if I were to now sit here playing some weird imaginary war game with miscavige I'd feel I'm still connected and involved in the madness ... because I would be.

Well, if I still held to that view, you would never see me make any posts at all. I'd still be in my pre-2019 mindset of: "Whenever I see or hear anything about the Co$, I look the other way".

At this point, just being a part of this forum means you are waging a "war game with miscavige". Just reading Tony Ortega or just watching C.Shelton's videos makes them target you as an enemy combatant.

I'll continue to communicate to people here as I always have. I will never pretend to be connected and united to anyone (indie or not) just because it fits in with someone else's possible agenda to 'divide and conquer' us ... we may as well still be in the cult if we start doing that.

Why would that be like still being in a cult?

The cult orders us not to communicate with people who left it. How come being open to communication with everyone is a cult thing?
I know you are making a point he,e but I honestly just don't get it.

When and if people want to leave scientology they will leave, they are not in bondage

I used to think like that, but I realized a lot of people are scared into staying because they don't want to lose their family or their job, or end up homeless on the street.

Which is why the aftermath foundation is such a great project... but I digress.

We are not 'weak and divided' because we are not an organised cult, we are people chatting on a message board.

I wasn't talking about just the board and I certainly was not implying that we need to be reaffirming each other's beliefs or conform to some standard. I'm sure you all know that I myself can stand by some of my own opinions in a very assertive manner when I feel strongly about it. I wasn't saying we need to change our beliefs to fit the agenda of this or that person.

I was saying that we should change the way we behave towards others, especially if we are going as far as being rude or hostile. Denying people the opportunity to speak or politely telling them to go somewhere else because they still believe in some parts of the tech is detrimental. By going this far we are giving Dave the space he needs to keep people in thralldom.

 

[Karakorum]

As for me, I have as a goal, although somewhat foolish, to get some of my old friends out that are still in. I have as a pet project one cycle that will bring out four people, if I do it right. That's four lives that can be saved. That is that attitude that I take. That project that I thought was dead recently came back to life. I think that my friend knows better, but can't yet face the facts. Two kids prime for the S.O. picking. I am taking some personal risk on this thing, you guys that read this don't know me and my life's setup, but that is the fact. I will go through hardship if it blows up, but it's two kids that are ripe for the S.O.

Many of us were on staff together and are/were friends. We felt like we were doing the best thing for ourselves and the planet. I have come to find through long hard won experience, and sifting through data, and inspecting my own "awareness" that I was wrong. Thoughts that I had that I pushed aside were correct. Anyone here who has tried to deal with die-hard currently still-in culties know of what I speak, that it is almost impossible to reason with them. When you see what was done to build up the cocoon around them, and you were once in on the other side, you know what I speak about.

I'm all for such action and honestly wish you the best. If there is something I can do to help, without having you revealing your identity, then let me know.

I was hoping that maybe I could do something similar for some people I know, but the few people inside that I tried contacting just don't reply to my attempts. I guess at this point I'm just a person on the other side of the world that was disconnected for too long to have a personal impact. :/

This doesn't give a license for rudeness, especially to the people that now know to the people that don't. I know that there was sort of a no-sympathy attitude that existed towards wogs while I was in, and that attitude seems to be easy to develop to those that are blinded by the honeymoon effect of being lured to the sweet smell of the tek.

Words of wisdom, couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[F.Bullbait]

OT eight pages...now we're getting somewhere..

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Snipped from post above by Karakorum (in blue).

At this point, just being a part of this forum means you are waging a "war game with miscavige". Just reading Tony Ortega or just watching C.Shelton's videos makes them target you as an enemy combatant.

Reply: No, I'm not in any way at war with miscavige or the cofs in general. The little twerp and his cult mean nothing to me apart from being a distant memory and something I laugh about here with like minded people.

I very rarely read Ortega and have never watched a Shelton video. My life is now my own and the thought of the cult targeting me is laughable ... I'd go straight to the Police if it ever happened. It's illegal where I live for others to harass or attack people.

I was saying that we should change the way we behave towards others, especially if we are going as far as being rude or hostile. Denying people the opportunity to speak or politely telling them to go somewhere else because they still believe in some parts of the tech is detrimental. By going this far we are giving Dave the space he needs to keep people in thralldom.

Reply: Detrimental to what?

I agree with you about giving new people time to settle in and I dislike seeing any rudeness or hostility thrown at them too and I always have done, but I see that as just being common decency ... it has nothing to do with any agenda here regarding miscavige, the cofs in general or indies. We are mostly just people chatting who happen to share a mutual past involvement with the cofs. Suggesting politely that an indie may be happier elsewhere if things are not going too well is not being rude, it's a simple truth. They are welcome here of course but they may not enjoy the way we speak about hubbard and his tek.

ESMB isn't an activist board, that's what I meant by the post above.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

I agree with you about giving new people time to settle in and I dislike seeing any rudeness or hostility thrown at them too . . . .

They should arrive here and lurk for a few years. See if this crowd is for them.
I lurked for four years before I joined up. So did afaceinthecrowd. That's the
way life works. You find your own people. Listen and learn some things first.

The Early Years

The contrast would be going to a message board where classical pianists hang
out and exchange ideas and begin telling them how to play a Chopin Nocturne,
while oneself being a novice at the piano.

Most of us here are already experts in the field of "Ex." One should arrive and
learn a few things.

Suggesting politely that an indie may be happier elsewhere if things are not going too well is not being rude, it's a simple truth. They are welcome here of course but they may not enjoy the way we speak about hubbard and his tek.

Simply put. Well put. That's the way the Interwebs work.
Nothing more to be said. Nothing to be confused about. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

.

karakorum posted:
"I feel that the culture of "purity" in the ex-Co$ world is counterproductive and detrimental."
comment: Here we go again with your unfounded theories of how critics of Scientology are being "detrimental" to Scientologists/Indies. You ran a badly failed campaign months ago when you kept going after two of the most successful whistleblowers in cult history (Remini/Rinder). You kept running "What are your crimes?" on Mike. And with Leah you tried to go after her for having done some spectacularly successful whistleblowing interviews on leading TV SHOWS & TOP RATED PODCASTS (e.g. Joe Rogan, Chelsea Handler, Larry, King, et al). You actually tried to convince people on this board that Leah was "harming" Scientologists and Scientology staff members by doing those interviews. You absurdly claimed that YOU knew how to do it better, yet you have never done any media shows and offered zero evidence of your masterful whistleblowing track record.


karakorum posted:
"Remember that the people who are still stuck inside Dave's church are going to be people who believe in the tech. If we want to help them and bring them out, we will need to cooperate with the independent Scientologists."
We "need" to cooperate with the Independent Scientologists? If you feel the "need", go ahead! When Hubbard's duped marks start promoting delusional nonsense, I don't "need" to "cooperate" with them, I "need" to maintain my sanity and (if possible) to help others from being seduced by a ridiculous hoax-box of lies.

karakorum posted:
"The more united and connected we all are, the harder it is for Dave to defeat us piecemeal and keep our friends and families forever in bondage inside the Co$."
I notice over the past year that you regularly refer to "us" and "we", and "our"---as if there is some secret underground resistance club we all swore an oath to. If this fictional "we" actually existed, why did you block my posts? And what will it take to get you to sign my LIability Formula and accept me back in the ethical people group again? LOL.

karakorum posted:
"Yes, and when I see people acting in an unnecessarily hostile or detrimental manner, then I as an individual will criticize that."
Oh, so that explains why you can criticize others but that when I criticize others, you hold an event to announce that I am a terrible troll. And you hold other events to announce that we need to cooperate with your investigation into Mike Rinder's hidden crimes (that you never found). And yet another series of events where Leah Remini is trashed because she is supposedly harming Scientologists and Scn staff members (for which you offer no proof). So, this now makes sense, you apparently are the only one upstat enough to criticize others. Reminds me of Hubbard ordering everyone else in the world to be sec checked because they were "critical" but he never ordered the most critical person in the world (himself) to be sec checked.

karakorum posted:
"The cult orders us not to communicate with people who left it. How come being open to communication with everyone is a cult thing?"
So are you trying to pretend that you are "open to communication with everyone" when you call them wicked trolls and block them on this forum? LOL!

karakorum posted:
"I was saying that we should change the way we behave towards others, especially if we are going as far as being rude or hostile. Denying people the opportunity to speak or politely telling them to go somewhere else because they still believe in some parts of the tech is detrimental. By going this far we are giving Dave the space he needs to keep people in thralldom."
We should change the way we behave? LOL. Go ahead, change the way YOU behave. Show us how it's done. Then you can serve as a shining example of a fully rehabilitated being, which all of us RPFers here can try to use as inspiration---so one day we might graduate and escape the Redux RPF and be like you! In the meanwhile, please keep delivering your inspiring sermons, we can't make it alone! It would be awesome if you would let us buy wall portraits of you in a naval costume so we would know where to gaze when we leap to our feet and applaud your tech.

.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

@HelluvaHoax!, a shocking analysis and take-down!
You do know he goes out of his way to avoid reading your posts, don't you?
He's even located the secret XenForo forum keystroke that invokes a "double ignore."

 

[TheSneakster]

PPS: This is definitely an "ex" board, not a "maybe" board. I've been
around since 2006-7 and have read a lion's share of the posts.

PirateAndBum - the Owner and Administrator of ESMBR - posted the following in the rules section of this board (this is only an excerpt).

Certain very vocal members of ESMB chose to completely ignore the rules in Emma's venue and (mostly) the same folks choose to ignore the owner's rules here:

Emma early on in the life of ESMB, Emma posted this as her hope for what ESMB would be,

This is also the hope for ESMB Redux.

What this board is:

A place where ex scientologists and interested general public can get together to discuss various experiences in Scientology.

A place where where ex's and non ex's can mingle and chat and get to know how the other half think and live.

A place to learn from each other.

A place to support each other.

A place to swap ideas and suggestions.

A place to civilly debate issues so that other viewpoints can be offered and tossed around and horizons can be broadened.

A place to be allowed to defend your position and not apologise for it, yet at the same time allow others to have their own.

A place that people feel safe to expose the abuses of this harmful cult, so the true story can be told.

A place where newly "out" Scientologists can come and be heard and learn and be supported through a really tough period in their lives.

A place to make people laugh and have some fun and to not take it all so seriously.

A place to expose the traps and pitfalls in returning to a "normal" existence, and to learn some tips and helpful suggestions in making this transition.

What this board isn't:

A vehicle to exact verbal revenge on those who have harmed us both inside and outside of Scientology. By that I mean continuing to trade insults & flame wars that are a hang over from past relationships, fueds from other messageboards, chat channels etc.

A place to blame and crucify others for what happened to you. Over time there are going to be people who find other ex members who they feel were responsible for some cruelty that was bestowed on them. Whilst this is understandable, and needs to be addressed, it needs to be understood that EVERYONE did things in Scientology of which they are not proud.

A place to ridicule "believers". People find their way out of the Scientology mindset at different speeds and to different degrees. What they need is understanding, not to be fobbed off and called a "stoopid clam" etc.