How Ideal Orgs Are Causing Current Scientologists To Leave Scientology

[HelluvaHoax!]

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oops - double post (deleted)

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[HelluvaHoax!]

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it really is that bad, especially so in some cases. some of the new oversized palaces have to cost them more to run than where they were before even if they don't have to pay rent...and in Philadelphia and Montreal they have tax bills of around $100k per year on buildings they bought in 2007 and have let sit and rot. i wonder if that sort of thing is disaffecting members -- and maybe staff, who'd rather see that type of money split among them on payday -- as well.

One wonders what it takes for Hubbard's loyal staff believers to have a cognition. . .

CUT TO:

INTERIOR - IDEAL ORG'S LAVISHLY APPOINTED MARBLE WC - DAY

We hear a toilet flush. An exhausted looking staff member exits the stall and begins washing their hands in the Italian marble sink as they peer deeply into the mirror at themselves--and alternately glancing at the surrounding marble walls and floor. Marble and Mirror. Back and forth, as they begin very, very slowly thinking---

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[HelluvaHoax!]

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DELETED - WRONG THREAD

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

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oh damn, got carried away by my reactive mind and to avoid derailing
this discussion, the post was properly routed to the STUPID THREAD...


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[HelluvaHoax!]

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oh damn, got carried away by my reactive mind and to avoid derailing
this discussion, the post was properly routed to the STUPID THREAD...


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[onceuponatime]

HEY AUSTIN TEXAS!! HEY OHIO, COLUMBUS, CENTRAL OHIO, OR WHATEVER THEY CALL YOU!!! HOW IS YOUR IDEAL ORG CAMPAIGN GOING?

Ask me. I'm Atlanta. Deadsville.

This is the majority of ideal orgs, and the few that do put out some numbers sometimes would've still put out those numbers without any sort of "ideal org" program. A massive waste.

The massive investment into ideal orgs, the massive investment into smp. An inquiring mind might want to know.

From the perspective of actual expansion of Scientology it's a failure. From the perspective of boosting Scientology's value, at least on paper, it's a massive success.

 

[Dotey OT]

This is the majority of ideal orgs, and the few that do put out some numbers sometimes would've still put out those numbers without any sort of "ideal org" program. A massive waste.



From the perspective of actual expansion of Scientology it's a failure. From the perspective of boosting Scientology's value, at least on paper, it's a massive success.

And parishioners are left only with the blind trust in scn management that everything will work out in the end.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

From the perspective of actual expansion of Scientology it's a failure. From the perspective of boosting Scientology's value, at least on paper, it's a massive success.

i think it's mostly on paper, except for some long term holding of int management buildings, a couple of orgs like Toronto. my best guess for what's going on in Albuquerque and St. Louis where for years they've had historic buildings they bought and then changed their mind about and put back on the market at what must be unrealistic asking prices, is that minions have kept DM's stat of total assets going up in part by raising the valuations from properties held -- which can be legitimate, but have left them with cases they paid too much at the peak of the real estate bubble and/or bought in markets with declining values, and then unrealistic jacked up their book value, leaving whatever minion is in the crosshairs now not wanting to be the one be realistic and just chalk up a loss like a normal organization not run like Stalin's Russia would do.

i've probably mentioned before, i know some peeps in commercial real estate and they tell me that the CoS will mostly never get anything close to their money back out of the idle morgues. new buyers down the road will want to gut them and remodel them into whatever is desirable at that future point, and thus pay only for the frame of the building if not even just the value of the land -- in particular some of the recent purchases of ugly office park buildings will be at the end of their useful life in another 10 to 20 years, probably poorly maintained on top of it, and ready for the wrecking ball.

 

[onceuponatime]

i think it's mostly on paper, except for some long term holding of int management buildings, a couple of orgs like Toronto. my best guess for what's going on in Albuquerque and St. Louis where for years they've had historic buildings they bought and then changed their mind about and put back on the market at what must be unrealistic asking prices, is that minions have kept DM's stat of total assets going up in part by raising the valuations from properties held -- which can be legitimate, but have left them with cases they paid too much at the peak of the real estate bubble and/or bought in markets with declining values, and then unrealistic jacked up their book value, leaving whatever minion is in the crosshairs now not wanting to be the one be realistic and just chalk up a loss like a normal organization not run like Stalin's Russia would do.

i've probably mentioned before, i know some peeps in commercial real estate and they tell me that the CoS will mostly never get anything close to their money back out of the idle morgues. new buyers down the road will want to gut them and remodel them into whatever is desirable at that future point, and thus pay only for the frame of the building if not even just the value of the land -- in particular some of the recent purchases of ugly office park buildings will be at the end of their useful life in another 10 to 20 years, probably poorly maintained on top of it, and ready for the wrecking ball.

Yes, and all the money spent on renos is just gone, outside of upgrades to systems like HVAC, electric, etc. They money they spend on renos probably doesn't increase the actual value of their buildings that much. But I'm sure it's counted in their books.

I think they are entering a desperate stage. This exec training is their last hope in a way and it's going to be a failure.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

Yes, and all the money spent on renos is just gone, outside of upgrades to systems like HVAC, electric, etc. They money they spend on renos probably doesn't increase the actual value of their buildings that much.

from what i've been told mechanical systems need major work every 15 to 30 years -- depending in part on how well it was done to begin with (what the CoS spent or didn't spend on is anyone's guess, but expect the worst -- especially as far as lack of proper maintenance). so by the time they end up back on the market they will be at or approaching the end of life of those systems -- the earliest projects are already in that range.

the exterior renos to historic buildings may have value, and maybe say a good lobby restoration as well, but beyond that they have done the buildings in a unique configuration suited only to them such as with warrens of auditing rooms, plus a fair bit of it is in a signature style that's already getting outdated, so new buyers would likely want to gut it and start over -- and pay a price discounted accordingly.

 

[onceuponatime]

from what i've been told mechanical systems need major work every 15 to 30 years -- depending in part on how well it was done to begin with (what the CoS spent or didn't spend on is anyone's guess, but expect the worst -- especially as far as lack of proper maintenance). so by the time they end up back on the market they will be at or approaching the end of life of those systems -- the earliest projects are already in that range.

the exterior renos to historic buildings may have value, and maybe say a good lobby restoration as well, but beyond that they have done the buildings in a unique configuration suited only to them such as with warrens of auditing rooms, plus a fair bit of it is in a signature style that's already getting outdated, so new buyers would likely want to gut it and start over -- and pay a price discounted accordingly.

Yeah, HVAC will probably need an overhaul if they go to sell. Lobby/exterior will have some value, also any upgrades to electrical, plumbing, structural, etc. Anyone who buys will definitely be gutting, no one wants the unique configuration scientology has put in.

On paper scientology is definitely overestimating the value of their real estate.

 

[Dotey OT]

Plumbing, hvac, some electrical things come up, and came up after the Atlanta grand opening. The carpeting in certain areas, which were actually carpet tiles pulled up and looked bad. They had an elevator (only one was operational, the other walled up) which acted up requiring repair. They relied on public to handle landscaping.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

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i know some peeps in commercial real estate and they tell me that the CoS will mostly never get anything close to their money back out of the idle morgues. new buyers down the road will want to gut them and remodel them into whatever is desirable at that future point, and thus pay only for the frame of the building if not even just the value of the land...
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Good point.

And, there's another major factor for why the resale value of Ideal Org Buildings is suppressed and eventually sold for substantially less than what they paid. Real estate sellers are required to notify prospective buyers if something strange has happened in that place (e.g. murder, suicide, et al) that literally caused a being to drop their body!

"Non-natural deaths in a house can decrease the property's value by 10% to 25%, according to Randall Bell, an expert in real estate damage economics and valuation with Landmark Research Group LLC in Dana Point, California. Much of this value loss is down simply to buyer apprehension."​

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Considering the sheer volume of beings non-naturally being forced out of their bodies (e.g. BTs getting booted out of their body on OT 3 to OT VIII), the staggering losses can well exceed 25%.

There is a mitigating factor to these losses, however, if the building doesn't sell and stays vacant for an extended period of years or even decades. The building can be very profitably be marketed once a year (on the last day of October) with paid admission tickets being sold to enter: "HUBBARD'S HAUNTED HOUSE OF HORRORS".

In countries that do not celebrate Halloween, the space can still be a commercial bonanza that one day--with a slight tweak to the big sign out front ("HUBBARD'S HAUNTED HOUSE OF WHORES").

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[Cat_Daddy]

 

[Reyne Mayer]

View attachment 22070

Jenna's SOMA mission was another failure. i think within a year or two they had someone else take it over from her, i'm guessing to keep her from confronting how scn was shrinking and falling into ill repute, and it moved out of its nicely renovated space to go somewhere else to die.

 

[Cat_Daddy]

Jenna's SOMA mission was another failure. i think within a year or two they had someone else take it over from her, i'm guessing to keep her from confronting how scn was shrinking and falling into ill repute, and it moved out of its nicely renovated space to go somewhere else to die.

I really like you, you have a lot of knowledge on these things. I just find these pictures. Thank you for your input.

 

[Isaac]

View attachment 2635

Anyone involved in the COS prior to 2003 can attest to the fact that the state of the buildings housing the orgs was pretty horrible. I had been to a few orgs by that time, none were impressive and most actually looked downstat and were in disrepair. LA Day & FDN, Tampa, CC Nash, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Columbus and Las Vegas were an embarrassment to any hardcore Scientologist. That’s why when the ideal org projected started, a certain excitement and hope started to enter in. Will we actually be able to throw away the folding chairs???

A concern sprung up, which was only whispered amongst friends that were old war horses, which was "this is a violation of having to have before you can do, isn't it?" One could only whisper this. Better not whisper it to the wrong person.


View attachment 2636

The excitement was pretty much drained out by the ten years plus that it took to raise the money for our org. I don't think we were the only org that took that long, and I believe there were a few others which took much longer. A testament to that fact is that it's now 2020, and there are still orgs fundraising at "full blast."

Also, during the period of time from the commencement of fund raising to the grand opening, there was an attitude of "we aren't really worrying about clearing the planet right now because we are fundraising for the new building." It most definitely wasn't business as usual. Again, the old war horses and anyone that had a concern for the production occurring in the org could see the effect that the complete attention org management had on fundraising. Us old war horses had to stifle our concern for fear of not being "with it." What happened to the "The Business of Orgs"???

Then there is the subject of construction or remodeling of buildings. Construction can be a crap shoot. Even the experienced builders/remodelers run into an expensive surprise occasionally, and the surprises that were too great caused the company to go under. The amateurs involved in ideal org projects take the cake!! Earthquake zones, incorrect drainage per NPDES protocols and mold remediation were a few of the very expensive surprises that many a dedicated public had to swallow and donate to overcome. I can't recall all the stories, but I suspect there has been a building or two which was purchased and had to be abandoned as a result of such oversights. (If you have knowledge of these sorts of things with your

orgs, chime in!!)

Value Engineering

Definition : Value engineering is an exercise that involves most of the project team as the project develops. It is about taking a wider view and looking at the selection of materials, plant, equipment and processes to see if a more cost-effective solution exists that will achieve the same project objectives.

Value engineering was non-existent in the process of ideal orgs, at least the ideal org that I was aware of. Maybe actually the opposite was the operating basis. During the fundraising, org public were made aware of the entire process by the landlord office, fundraisers, etc., more or less to make everyone a stakeholder in the process. We were told many of the more finer details of the building plans. I happened to be in the construction industry at the time, and had SCN friends in construction. The lack of attention to value engineering was staggering!! We all had many conversations about how we could speed up the process because we could build the building for way less. Another point in this fiasco, maybe the most important point, was the breaking of a sacred rule. The rule goes like this : Never fall in love with the property. One should always have a dispassionate viewpoint over property, because if you don't, it will cost you. Apparently, cost is no object.

For myself, the ideal org project for our area acted as a never ending supply of conflicting datums. Fundraising, withered orgs, people leaving (Suddenly people were missing or hard to get hold of) events, events, events took it's toll. It didn't cause me to leave at that time, but I became very wary of what was going on. I had to take the attitude of "We will See". I guess that leads to the next point.

Ideal org buildings are very, very empty. I drive past the org in my city on occasion, and there are never more that eight cars in the parking lot. If you frequent Tony Ortega or Mike Rinder, you get a feel for this. There are frequently reports of recently opened ideal orgs with no cars in the parking lots. This is a standard.

I haven't even covered the financial irregularities that I knew of during the fundraising portion. That will have to come at a later time.

Much like “regrading beings” up and down the Bridge to total $piritual Freedom, $ciendollatry is “regrading Ideal Orgs.
It’s diabolically evil … It’s $ Scientology


Step 1: implant fear… drive them into apathy
Drive it in hard - the planet going to hell in a hand basket …. THE PSYcHS are coming!
Then offer the shuddering fools a solution
Big announcement - special event
Lots of fanfare
“Scientology can fix that” !!
Hip Hip salute the commodore
Scientology has the only solution cuz Ron was able ton”rise above the bank”

Need big buildings
Implant the “Must Have” command
Use repeater technique “must have now, now, now - heavy on propaganda and slick glossy photos on how Ideal it will all be
Step 2: corner a few whales going “on the level”
Regge the $hit out of them - get their money and bury them in Debt
Step 3: Repeat Step 1&2 interchangeably until millions has been extracted from the field & sent up lines (to DM) for each Org on the planet
Bankrupt them
Then regge them to join staff
Step 4: get them to buy a BIG building to use as the main Shill - pay cash from cult members money - never use the organization funds - that’s for DM
Step 5: Repeat Steps 1-5
After a decade…
Step 6: Do an OT Debug and convince the followers to sell the building due to the results of the Debug
Step 7: Distract the followers with another new book regurgitation due to more suppressive comma’s and exclamation points
Step 8: Run that until followers forget about the building
Step 9: go to Step 1 and repeat

 

[Dotey OT]

Much like “regrading beings” up and down the Bridge to total $piritual Freedom, $ciendollatry is “regrading Ideal Orgs.
It’s diabolically evil … It’s $ Scientology


Step 1: implant fear… drive them into apathy
Drive it in hard - the planet going to hell in a hand basket …. THE PSYcHS are coming!
Then offer the shuddering fools a solution
Big announcement - special event
Lots of fanfare
“Scientology can fix that” !!
Hip Hip salute the commodore
Scientology has the only solution cuz Ron was able ton”rise above the bank”

Need big buildings
Implant the “Must Have” command
Use repeater technique “must have now, now, now - heavy on propaganda and slick glossy photos on how Ideal it will all be
Step 2: corner a few whales going “on the level”
Regge the $hit out of them - get their money and bury them in Debt
Step 3: Repeat Step 1&2 interchangeably until millions has been extracted from the field & sent up lines (to DM) for each Org on the planet
Bankrupt them
Then regge them to join staff
Step 4: get them to buy a BIG building to use as the main Shill - pay cash from cult members money - never use the organization funds - that’s for DM
Step 5: Repeat Steps 1-5
After a decade…
Step 6: Do an OT Debug and convince the followers to sell the building due to the results of the Debug
Step 7: Distract the followers with another new book regurgitation due to more suppressive comma’s and exclamation points
Step 8: Run that until followers forget about the building
Step 9: go to Step 1 and repeat

Scn makes the able more disabled!!

 

[Mamie Glutz]

I think that the one greatest problem that I had over the last ten years of my existence in scn was the fact that I did not want to give money for our local ideal org. I was more inclined to give to the ias, and even that went kind of sideways near the end of my stint. We lost many public during the events and the regging. I stayed, but was not happy about it. Many disappeared, and oddly they remained scn'ists, just "inactive."

 

[Reyne Mayer]

We lost many public during the events and the regging.

interesting to hear.

plus it's got to be unappealing to get regged for money for someone else's building, which is what they're doing now.

i'm also wondering how the building debacle over first not accomplishing any of the org openings promised for the first quarter of last year, and then delaying Austin once again -- it now looks like it's rescheduled for another 2 weeks out -- is affecting people.

plus apparently since the Austin org is, typically, on shaky ground, they're going around asking for money to pay the rent on the 'temporary' space they've been in for about 5 years now -- though of course if they can't make their rent where they are now, how are they going to pay even just the utilities costs in a much larger space?