How Ideal Orgs Are Causing Current Scientologists To Leave Scientology

[onceuponatime]

over at Mike Rinder's, there are a number of people who have posted pretty detailed historical information about STL, but have more recently been watching the parking lot and still know which cars belong to who. there seem to be pretty reliable counts that staff are down to 12-15 total, if that. i had some kinda insider info on Orlando at one point several years before they went ideal (and apparently got sea org staffing) and they had been right around that size too, i was reasonably certain. so it seems to me the evidence points to the smaller orgs are really not doing that well, and have staff more of the size you'd expect to be serving a couple dozen members.

also, from one org i did get to observe directly a couple of times close to a decade ago now, an org in a good sized metro area that had 25-30 staff was one that got 50-60 people participating regularly, and 100-120 people at say the big New Year's and LRH birthday events. that was also one that got its ideal org done in just a few years, with only one false start. and that was before the tsunami of bad publicity really hit; that org no longer has any social media presence that i can find.

i think it's expected that Tampa is probably the biggest org -- and you can see it in the staff photos they post to social media. i hadn't picked up on San Francisco, but wasn't surprised to hear they are also larger -- and there are some staff pictures in their social media that are certainly much larger than what you see for almost all orgs, if still not showing their full size.

ultimately what always frustrates and even surprises me, is that we don't have better information from people leaving scn, about the status of things like staff counts and active membership. i don't quite get it, but i can only figure that either orgs keep such things shrouded, or members had blinders on or just weren't the sort of people to do quantitative reality checks (which would go with how they get sold on 'expansion' and 'ideal orgs' when all the orgs are so empty).

One of the issues is that even when people are out, or were never in, if they have relevant info they also likely have connections to people who are still in. Not everyone is ready to burn all their scientology connections. Even with how much I post on here I'm still not willing to reveal all the data I have, lol.

St Louis being down to 15ish staff wouldn't be shocking to me. From what I remember that org kind of imploded. I also wouldn't be shocked to hear they are still at 30ish staff. It's hard to estimate once they get down to lower numbers. The buildings are usually pretty big, 30 staff (15 each shift) will seem like an empty org, not much different from 15 staff total (7-8 each shift).

I still think the average per org is somewhere in the 30-40 range. But that's held up for the most part by the larger orgs. Orgs like Tampa will boost the average, especially because there are only something like 130 orgs.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

I still think the average per org is somewhere in the 30-40 range. But that's held up for the most part by the larger orgs. Orgs like Tampa will boost the average, especially because there are only something like 130 orgs.

yes, but the really small and failing orgs at least a couple of which appear to be below 10 staff, will drag that average down -- though maybe not quite enough to bring the average back to the mean, if say Tampa still has over 100 staff.

i think of average orgs as those in the middle -- mathematically better labeled as the mean. the one i knew the most about in a fairly typical US city was at 25-30 staff even in what were still more or less good times, and i've gotten some info that they were down by a third since, which would be more like 16-20. i think that's also about where Columbus (metro population 2.15 million, 32nd in the US and about in the middle of metro areas where orgs are located) was said to be before they got sea org staffing to go 'ideal'. and that fits with what i see from all the event pictures, social media postings, etc.; also, i seem to be noticing more orgs that like as used to be the case with only the really small and failing, have no social media presence at all.

 

[onceuponatime]

yes, but the really small and failing orgs at least a couple of which appear to be below 10 staff, will drag that average down -- though maybe not quite enough to bring the average back to the mean, if say Tampa still has over 100 staff.

i think of average orgs as those in the middle -- mathematically better labeled as the mean. the one i knew the most about in a fairly typical US city was at 25-30 staff even in what were still more or less good times, and i've gotten some info that they were down by a third since, which would be more like 16-20. i think that's also about where Columbus (metro population 2.15 million, 32nd in the US and about in the middle of metro areas where orgs are located) was said to be before they got sea org staffing to go 'ideal'. and that fits with what i see from all the event pictures, social media postings, etc.; also, i seem to be noticing more orgs that like as used to be the case with only the really small and failing, have no social media presence at all.

Right, since the average is already pretty low (imho) the bigger orgs are going to do a better job boosting it than the small orgs will pull it down. Last numbers we heard from Tampa were 400 staff, and that was from a pretty good source, an ex staff member. Personally I think that's high, but even if we cut it in half and say 200 that still covers a ton of other orgs being small. Add in a few other big orgs like Kaohsiung and Milano and the average being 40ish makes sense. I agree the mean is probably lower. Of course we could all be estimating a little too low. Katherine said Columbus had 50 staff before the SO complement. Maybe that's closer to the average. Hard to tell, so far I'm happy to stick with my guess of 40ish average.

 

[Dotey OT]

Right, since the average is already pretty low (imho) the bigger orgs are going to do a better job boosting it than the small orgs will pull it down. Last numbers we heard from Tampa were 400 staff, and that was from a pretty good source, an ex staff member. Personally I think that's high, but even if we cut it in half and say 200 that still covers a ton of other orgs being small. Add in a few other big orgs like Kaohsiung and Milano and the average being 40ish makes sense. I agree the mean is probably lower. Of course we could all be estimating a little too low. Katherine said Columbus had 50 staff before the SO complement. Maybe that's closer to the average. Hard to tell, so far I'm happy to stick with my guess of 40ish average.

My guess is that 40 is a high number. But it is a guess, and if it is less, which I think it is, it's even better.

 

[Dotey OT]

I was there:






I am actually in this one, Where's Waldo? I'm clapping for gawd's sake!! We were a 1:15 drive to home from that place, each way, Monday through Friday! The grand opening was in April 2016.

I was working next door to this building in 2003, working for an accounting firm. We had been informed that Atlanta was to be the proud owner of a new building, once it got somehow paid for through donations. The owner and I walked into the parking lot of a then closed Coldwell Banker real estate office, and both of us thought it would be a great place for an org.

That business owner eventually donated over one million dollars to the Atlanta ideal org project, before passing away suddenly in October 2009, leaving his widow with a major portion of the debt. One of many financial horror stories.

The largest donor passed away in the parking deck going into work to his dental practice, leaving his wife with the debt. And she was on the ship at the time attesting to otvii. he was on solo nots. She is currently the ed of day.

The mother choich bought the building covertly during the fund raising early on in the evolution, but did not convey this to the fleeced flock. This was done as the building was about to be sold so they had to buy it immediately. This being because someone scooped up the building during the early fundraising, so there was a new seller, who immediately raised the price. You can search the data on the Fulton County Tax Assessors website. 5395 Roswell Rd. I stumbled onto that data while searching Fulton County property tax records online, as I did daily in financial work. This was just one of the many times that ineptness and lack of concern of costs helped raised the total fundraising of under 30 million for a property worth quite a bit less most likely.





There were so many SO staff in ATL starting around 2004, maybe several hundred different individual persons. Some for a few days, others were there for years. Maybe just before the grand opening there were two hundred. Atlanta had over two hundred staff on day and maybe one hundred fifty on fnd. It was a significant investment in people.

They will be opening practically empty orgs from the start. There will be a caravan that will be like those that followed the Grateful Dead to all of their shows. It will be sort of following the dead. Sort of.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

Katherine said Columbus had 50 staff before the SO complement. Maybe that's closer to the average. Hard to tell, so far I'm happy to stick with my guess of 40ish average.

that was KC -- which i suspect was better off in part because they owned their own building (and some adjacent properties), weren't stuck paying rent and may even have had some rental income (like Austin used to).

she says Columbus was 'podunk' (remember, still a good sized metro area. about the same as Pittsburgh for example) and 'had like less than 10 staff or something" -- which is what it seems to me quite a number of orgs are down to, especially those in smaller metro areas.

at 35:30 (fortunately i saved time stamps in my notes, because information this concrete to cite is rare):

 

[Reyne Mayer]

There were so many SO staff in ATL starting around 2004, maybe several hundred different individual persons. Some for a few days, others were there for years. Maybe just before the grand opening there were two hundred. Atlanta had over two hundred staff on day and maybe one hundred fifty on fnd. It was a significant investment in people.

first, thanks for all the info and insight.

what do you know about what the staff count ended up at after things had crashed back down -- and what it might have been in recent years, or be now?

 

[Dotey OT]

I am guessing that day staff has less than ten that could be full time, and foundation has less. I believe that they have several so staff present as well.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

I am guessing that day staff has less than ten that could be full time, and foundation has less. I believe that they have several so staff present as well.

thanks again.

so less than 20. and the Atlanta metro area is about double that of Columbus, which had less than 10. the St. Louis area population is a bit larger than Columbus, and they're reported to have 10-15 staff at most, kind of in between. so there might even be an emerging pattern of an average scaling of sorts, though of course there will be plenty of exceptions for various reasons.

 

[onceuponatime]

My guess is that 40 is a high number. But it is a guess, and if it is less, which I think it is, it's even better.

Anything from 20-60 being the average would make sense to me. I don't see how it could be lower than 20 and I'd be shocked if it was higher than 60 (I already think that's really high).

I was there:


View attachment 20373



I am actually in this one, Where's Waldo? I'm clapping for gawd's sake!! We were a 1:15 drive to home from that place, each way, Monday through Friday! The grand opening was in April 2016.

I was working next door to this building in 2003, working for an accounting firm. We had been informed that Atlanta was to be the proud owner of a new building, once it got somehow paid for through donations. The owner and I walked into the parking lot of a then closed Coldwell Banker real estate office, and both of us thought it would be a great place for an org.

That business owner eventually donated over one million dollars to the Atlanta ideal org project, before passing away suddenly in October 2009, leaving his widow with a major portion of the debt. One of many financial horror stories.

The largest donor passed away in the parking deck going into work to his dental practice, leaving his wife with the debt. And she was on the ship at the time attesting to otvii. he was on solo nots. She is currently the ed of day.

The mother choich bought the building covertly during the fund raising early on in the evolution, but did not convey this to the fleeced flock. This was done as the building was about to be sold so they had to buy it immediately. This being because someone scooped up the building during the early fundraising, so there was a new seller, who immediately raised the price. You can search the data on the Fulton County Tax Assessors website. 5395 Roswell Rd. I stumbled onto that data while searching Fulton County property tax records online, as I did daily in financial work. This was just one of the many times that ineptness and lack of concern of costs helped raised the total fundraising of under 30 million for a property worth quite a bit less most likely.


View attachment 20374


There were so many SO staff in ATL starting around 2004, maybe several hundred different individual persons. Some for a few days, others were there for years. Maybe just before the grand opening there were two hundred. Atlanta had over two hundred staff on day and maybe one hundred fifty on fnd. It was a significant investment in people.

They will be opening practically empty orgs from the start. There will be a caravan that will be like those that followed the Grateful Dead to all of their shows. It will be sort of following the dead. Sort of.

Where did all the staff come from and when did they all leave? Was there a mass exodus or was it a constant flow of people leaving?

They recruit from all over and make all sorts of promises. Obviously they don't keep the promises they make and people start to leave almost as soon as the opening ceremony is over.

that was KC -- which i suspect was better off in part because they owned their own building (and some adjacent properties), weren't stuck paying rent and may even have had some rental income (like Austin used to).

she says Columbus was 'podunk' (remember, still a good sized metro area. about the same as Pittsburgh for example) and 'had like less than 10 staff or something" -- which is what it seems to me quite a number of orgs are down to, especially those in smaller metro areas.

at 35:30 (fortunately i saved time stamps in my notes, because information this concrete to cite is rare):

That's right, and that makes more sense to me.

thanks again.

so less than 20. and the Atlanta metro area is about double that of Columbus, which had less than 10. the St. Louis area population is a bit larger than Columbus, and they're reported to have 10-15 staff at most, kind of in between. so there might even be an emerging pattern of an average scaling of sorts, though of course there will be plenty of exceptions for various reasons.

Because scientology is so small and in so few cities exceptions will be more common imho. How big or small scientology is in an area depends more on the individuals involved and how hardcore they are than population size. At least that's what I've seen from my observations.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Atlanta was a mission for a long time before becoming an org. It was never "big" before the idle push.

I think the same is true for Columbus.

 

[Dotey OT]

Ideal orgs. Not for everybody.

 

[Enthetan]

There were so many SO staff in ATL starting around 2004, maybe several hundred different individual persons.

This brings up a big question: Why?

Yes, the orgs need staff, but if AOLA, ASHO, and Flag were actually delivering services, you could be certain that the SO staff would be in the SO orgs handling service delivery.

It gives me the impression that DM has more SO staff than he can find a use for, and not much revenue to actually feed them. (I remember that some people joined the SO because they wanted to be on staff, but were having issues with being on staff AND being able to earn enough side money to buy food and pay rent, and figured that if they were in the SO they would get fed and housed.)

So he sends them out to outer orgs to try to generate enough GI to feed themselves.

 

[Dotey OT]

This brings up a big question: Why?

Yes, the orgs need staff, but if AOLA, ASHO, and Flag were actually delivering services, you could be certain that the SO staff would be in the SO orgs handling service delivery.

It gives me the impression that DM has more SO staff than he can find a use for, and not much revenue to actually feed them. (I remember that some people joined the SO because they wanted to be on staff, but were having issues with being on staff AND being able to earn enough side money to buy food and pay rent, and figured that if they were in the SO they would get fed and housed.)

So he sends them out to outer orgs to try to generate enough GI to feed themselves.

You may be right.

But the successful facade built by a grand opening with large amounts of staff present produces far more. Once an org goes ideal, the donors from the area are not left alone to go pay off their debt. Now it's onto the next project, such as "ideal California" etc. It's like a play that is produced for the attendees of the events, they are lied to and shown video of the grand opening at events. They are lied to about stats. I saw Jason Hemphill do just that when Atlanta opened. The GI stats, if they had been broken down into "staff" donations versus "public" donations, you would have seen the difference. People that were regged for staff were also regged for services just like a public, in spite of being on staff.

As an aside: In fact, me and my better half loaned out 6k to another staff for some auditing. Call it an arranged loan, because it was. It took months to get repaid for what was supposed to be a two week deal. In the end, the s.o. person that arranged the loan said "you should never have loaned the money." I believe that s.o. person is no longer in, and is now working for Asea health, another scn owned business. She is busy ripping off others in the name of greatest good.

 

[onceuponatime]

This brings up a big question: Why?

Yes, the orgs need staff, but if AOLA, ASHO, and Flag were actually delivering services, you could be certain that the SO staff would be in the SO orgs handling service delivery.

It gives me the impression that DM has more SO staff than he can find a use for, and not much revenue to actually feed them. (I remember that some people joined the SO because they wanted to be on staff, but were having issues with being on staff AND being able to earn enough side money to buy food and pay rent, and figured that if they were in the SO they would get fed and housed.)

So he sends them out to outer orgs to try to generate enough GI to feed themselves.

One thing you have to think with is how inefficient scientology and the sea org is. These people they pull aren't auditors, they are random paper pushers that get sent out to help the orgs.

The way the sea org is setup, as per LRH policy, is incredibly bloated. That's the way it always has been. So sending people to orgs isn't that hard, they can always find people. And it doesn't impact delivery because these people don't really do anything on delivery lines in the first place.

 

[Dotey OT]

HEY AUSTIN TEXAS!! HEY OHIO, COLUMBUS, CENTRAL OHIO, OR WHATEVER THEY CALL YOU!!! HOW IS YOUR IDEAL ORG CAMPAIGN GOING?

Ask me. I'm Atlanta. Deadsville.

 

[Dotey OT]

My name and my significant other's name are on the wall in the basement across from the chapel. Her name is very high up on that wall. My name is there as well. Combined, we are patrons with honors of the ias.

Oops.

 

[Cat_Daddy]

Ideal Morgues

Insanity in Scientology (mikerindersblog.org)

 

[Reyne Mayer]

Ideal Morgues

Insanity in Scientology (mikerindersblog.org)

ooh, that's a nice little piece about the fundamental illogic and irrationality at work. and this....

Ideal Morgues
Keep in mind Scientology’s concept of “ideal orgs” while reading LRH’s next passage.

“An administrator can call a conference on a new building, accidentally collect people who can’t differentiate amongst laws, facts, opinions or suggestions—treating them of equal value—and find himself not with a new building but a staggering financial loss.”


Damn!
David Miscavige clearly can’t differentiate between what LRH wrote concerning “ideal orgs” and what he’s forced down the throats of his public and staff sycophants. Sadly, most of these people can’t differentiate between rational, well-conceived programs and DM’s ludicrous plans and agendas.

it really is that bad, especially so in some cases. some of the new oversized palaces have to cost them more to run than where they were before even if they don't have to pay rent -- plus in a couple of cases the orgs owned their own buildings, and even had tenants from whom they got rental income, so it can be even worse....

and in Philadelphia and Montreal they have tax bills of around $100k per year on buildings they bought in 2007 and have let sit and rot. i wonder if that sort of thing is disaffecting members -- and maybe staff, who'd rather see that type of money split among them on payday -- as well.

https://www.reasoned.life/2018/05/ideal-org-1/

 

[Dotey OT]

The massive investment into ideal orgs, the massive investment into smp. An inquiring mind might want to know.