False flag operations and fake personas

Kalle

troubleshooter
What secret war are you referring to?
if you really want to know, start with Dr. Daniele Ganser, a swiss histiorian, and study this book:
NATO's Secret Armies: Operation GLADIO and Terrorism in Western Europe (Contemporary Security Studies (Paperback, Englisch) 22. Dezember 2004
"This book tells the story of NATO's secret anti-communist stay-behind armies that had been set up by the CIA and MI6 after World War Two in all countries of Western Europe and in some countries became tragically linked to right-wing terrorism"
There you might understand - when you trace back terrorism to its roots - you might end up in the country that created the first genocide in history with its original population, the indians . . .

And the deeper you go into it for UNDERSTANDING - the easier it gets to understand then - what exactly "happened" to you & your religion ever after 1972 . . . ?
 

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
In 1976 I moved to AOSH EU in Cop to become a wordclearer,
I am a wordclearer as well, one of the hats that I was trained for at Flag.

Have you seen the 2013 directive from GAT II in regards to approved dictionaries in the orgs? I have wondered what another word clearer thought of it.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
I never claimed to be a nice person nor a "tame ethics officer". I've been a cult enforcer for part of my time on staff and all of my time in the SO.
At the same time, I have a belief that people with extensive ethics or OSA backgrounds should not take on prominent roles in the ex-community, we should limit ourselves to giving good advice, support and maybe financial support (those of us who do have enough real money nowadays).

That's really my issue with Mike: He is one of the most prominent critics and I don't think it will be a streach when I call him one of the leaders of the dissident community. At the same time, there's quite a bit of unanswered questions. I would love to hear Mike have a podcast on OSA activities.
.
karakorum said: "I never claimed to be a nice person nor a tame ethics officer. I've been a cult enforcer for part of my time on staff and all of my time in the SO."
And you are the person who has been posting for months (many dozens of times) about how you don't trust Rinder because he was a cult enforcer---but everyone is supposed to trust you? LOL. Clay demo hypocrisy.

karakorum said: "I have a belief that people with extensive ethics or OSA backgrounds should not take on prominent roles in the ex-community, we should limit ourselves to giving good advice, support and maybe financial support..."
But you have an "extensive ethics or OSA background" yet you have taken on the prominent role of endlessly promoting how Mike Rinder should not be trusted. Based on no facts, just your sleazy insinuations & innuendos.

karakorum said: "...we should limit ourselves to giving good advice, support and maybe financial support..."
So let's examine what "good advice and support" you have provided.
  • You advised countless times that Mike Rinder shouldn't be trusted--yet he is one of the most extraordinarily successful whistleblowers in Scientology's 70 year history. That is not "advice" that is black pr, because you offer not one scintilla of proof. Rinder's been under vicious attack by the cult, yet you don't "support" him, you tear him down. With support like that, who needs sabotage?
  • You gave advice that Leah Remini is harming Scientologists and Scientology staff members by her whistleblowing. Yet Leah is arguably the most successful whistleblower in cult history in terms of viewership and disclosing cult abuses. That's not "good advice" that's trying to tear down a wonderful and courageous whistleblower who put themselves at considerable risk and has been under non-stop attacks. You brag about "supporting" but if you supported Leah's achievements you wouldn't be claiming she is harmful and that only you know how to do whistleblowing correctly---even though you have done nothing at all.
  • You promote the entirely ludicrous theory that Mike Rinder should "limit" himself ("we should limit ourselves") rather than do what he did. Thus your "good advice" is that he should NOT have come out so publicly and produced successful tv shows and done an inordinate number of other big media revelations. He was wrong to not "limit" himself, according to you. You want to limit him. But you aren't doing anything to expose the crimes and human rights violations like Mike. Your contribution is to criticize him, promote how he can't be trusted and to advise that he should relegate himself to some "limited" role. In other words you want to chop off his support and make him be quiet. What does that say about who you are and what you are doing?
So then, let's recap. Rinder is untrustworthy and shouldn't have such a successful high profile role in exposing cult crimes. Leah is also harming others by the way she does whistleblowing. And YOU, the person who does nothing, is the only expert that knows how to do whistleblowing the right way.

And you think you can sell this hypocrisy?


.
 

Bill

Well-known member
And WHEN did anyone ask you to "trust Mike"? Let me quote myself:
I have never asked you to "give Mike unconditional trust". You are living in some bizzaro world where whatever you hallucinate is "true".
So you can stop pretending I did.

You are continuing to attack Mike , "He's got secrets, he must come clean to me!!" (Oddly forwarding the Church of Scientology's attack line). You have this hard-on for Mike and won't quit with your attacks. Fine.

So why don't you attack all the other ex-Scientologists who were Upper Management, doing Miscavige's dirty work, doing Hubbard's dirty work?

Hmmm? There were a lot of Upper Management who did some really nasty stuff under Hubbard and Miscavige's "leadership". How about them as well? Why are you silent on ALL those people? You obviously have a Mike-specific agenda that ISN'T about exposing abuses and crimes of ALL "OSA" or "Upper Management". Why just Mike?

And how about YOU? You were forwarding Hubbard's repressive, oppressive, malicious policies when you were in. Why haven't YOU confessed to your actions, publicly, to the authorities???
 
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Bill

Well-known member
Are you on LSD, do you have halucinations - from WHERE do you receive what "appears" in your universe?

I was a "believer" only once in my life, when I ran across a song from Neill Diamond: "I'm a believer".
Otherwise I like to work with my hands on wood and stone and all other materials, that can be used for construction. That is trial & error, and that is fun.

Scientology solved a problem, which the medical profession, which believes the human being IS A MATERIAL BODY - could not solve in 12 years - as the medical pharma-cartel does NOT know the MIND & does NOT know the SOUL of a human being - so I was surprised by solid PROOF

Now when you deliver a PROOF to me - you can always convince me - it's either honest PROOF or FAKE, but there is no room in my universe for anything else but observation . . .

And so far i have observed, that you are the only one in disagreement to my comment - which was NOT meant for YOU - but for Pirate & Bum!

Is there anything you would like to know from me - or something you would want me to do for YOU Bill?
Or are you just policing the comm-lines of OTHERS ?
Yep. Looking for a fight. Not interested. Welcome to ESMBR.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Sure, anyone has the right to criticize anyone else for any reason. I don't have any problem with karakorum running criticism on any scientologist, indie or ex-scientologist. That's not the problem.

Here's the issue. Hypocrisy.

Tearing down Leah and Mike and others for doing whistleblowing in a "harmful" way or trying to promote that Mike is untrustworthy. Or trying to promote that Mike should only give "advice" to others and not take a major role in exposing Scientology. Yet at the same time complaining that he has not done enough because he is "withholding" secrets that need to come out about Scientology. These things are blatant hypocrisy.

It reminds me of another hypocrisy I witnessed first hand during my time in the cult. This one - - -

Hubbard bitterly complained and criticized and ran black pr crusades for years--actually decades---against "psychs" and other mental health care providers. Hubbard/COB even created hate websites, hate publications ("Freedom Mag") and ludicrous "Psychiatry Museums Of Death" to attempt to impede and eventually destroy the the mental health care industry. So that NO mental patients could receive treatment.

Hubbard incessantly bragged that ONLY HE had the true and only "modern science of mental health". Hubbard often boasted that he had "discovered" the "tech' that easily and quickly cured insane people and thus he would create a "world without insanity".

Yet, in actual practice, Hubbard did NOTHING for the mentally ill. But it's much worse than that. . .

In actual practice, when a mentally ill person showed up at an org and desperately needed help, Hubbard instructed his worldwide organizations to do NOTHING. He created sacred policies that FORBID any staff member trying to help or audit a mentally ill individual. That person was to be told that they were an "ILLEGAL PC", and shown the door.

Hubbard thus demonstrated a diabolically deviant level of hypocrisy rarely seen in the history of the world. Here's the essential formula:

VICIOUSLY CRITICIZE PEOPLE WHO ARE LEADERS IN THE FIELD​
PRETEND TO BE THE EXPERT​
PRETEND TO HAVE THE ANSWER​
THEN DO NOTHING.​
AT THE SAME TIME---TRY TO STOP, IMPEDE OR FORBID THE PEOPLE WHO ARE​
THE MOST SUCCESSFUL FROM CONTINUING TO HELP OTHERS.​
.
 
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PirateAndBum

Administrator
Staff member
Scientology solved a problem, which the medical profession, which believes the human being IS A MATERIAL BODY - could not solve in 12 years - as the medical pharma-cartel does NOT know the MIND & does NOT know the SOUL of a human being - so I was surprised by solid PROOF

Now when you deliver a PROOF to me - you can always convince me - it's either honest PROOF or FAKE, but there is no room in my universe for anything else but observation . . .
I'd be interested to hear what proof you were provided.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
So I dug deep into investigation of my own . . .
And the things I discovered could be summarized in a complete criminal takeover of the church of Scientology by the CIA starting back in 1972.
I recognize him from other times and places and am a tiny bit familiar with Kalle. :coolwink:

He's been a "conspiracy promoter" for decades: LRH arrested in the 70's, Scientology
taken over by the CIA, and run by the government since then, etc. That's his shtick.
A true believer of that narrative, I guess.

Not that there's anything whatsoever wrong with that. Not at all. :no:

It's just an acquired taste. One I haven't acquired, but I know it's out there.

He may have a difficult time finding "pen pals" on this particular message board. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Kalle

troubleshooter
I am a wordclearer as well, one of the hats that I was trained for at Flag.

Have you seen the 2013 directive from GAT II in regards to approved dictionaries in the orgs? I have wondered what another word clearer thought of it.
Hi Dotey OT,
I had only one wordclearing session at Flag with a Flag-wordclear in the summer of 1976. It was a desaster.
I had been studying in the AOSH EU in Copenhagen, in spring 76, and the Course was sceduled for two weeks. I studied for three month, and still had a confusion on the HCOPL Method 4 wordclearing, which would not resolve, although I had looked up all the words etc. over and over again . . .
I felt this was a deep seated confusion - that I could not handle by myself, and I kept asking for a WCCL - which had to be delivered by a Class VI Auditor. and was considered to be too expansive for staff I guess . . .
After three month of not being able to attest, there came a Flag-mission to pick people from all over Europe for Supervisor and even Auditor-Training at Flag, and I really WANTED that, as I had the Idea Flag had a much higher STANDARD of tech, and would help me out of my confusion on HCO PL Method 4 wordclearing.
So I ended my studies with a FALSE attest, and went to Flag. When my program was established, I said, that I had a confusion on this on PL which the AOSH EU could not resolve with me . . .
So I endet up with a overworked Flag wordclearer, who talked to me while finishing his last student's paperwork.
He pulled out the HCO PL on Method 4 and asked me to start reading aloud, as he declared to me we'd doi it wit method 3 while not even looking at me . . .
So I started to read the headline aloud - which I almost knew by heart - as I had studied this particular PL over and over again, on my course in Europe.
I think he made me look up 33 words on this short PL in a dictionary - and I realized quickly trhis guy had no clue whatsoever, what I been telling him before . . .
So I endet up totally pissed with a FALSE F/N indicated, and a FALSE F/N from the Examiner and I understood that Flag was not the place were Standard Tech was pure & perfect . . .
To cut a long story short,
I had my win on TR O, as I insisted on doing it the old & hard way - and Flag hated it - and today I think that STOP might well have saved my life . . .
Back in Copenhagen I insisted on a WCCL - which this time I received from Class VI Stig Jörgenson - and that Word Clearing Correction List endet after ten Minutes with my biggest win ever . . .
It listed TWO ERRORS: 1.) uncomplete TR's (thats my Flag-experience till today, and 2.) FAILED to go E/S in wordclearing, which finally HANDLED my confusion, which was an incident way back on my timetrack, and th FIRST word of that HCOPL Method 4 wordclearing, the wor "METHOD" had been the constant RESTIMULATOR, which I could only find and DISCHARGE with the help of a fantastic AUDITOR and that WCCL, as a standard tool in wordclearing that was NOT used, as it should have been . . .

Your second question I can not answer, as I have not ever had any DOUBT on the power of the wordclearing technology of 1975 / 1976 as the criminals on board back then were interested in OT-levels, PTS-tech and exteriorisation to screw it up - wordclearing almost never ever interested anybody back then . . .
 
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Kalle

troubleshooter
I'd be interested to hear what proof you were provided.
That's interesting!

You pretend to be curious - but you have NOT read or NOT understood my posts from yesterday - as I described exactly this in great detail . . .

Or are you a real pirate?

Lying and cheating your way through life . . . ?
 

PirateAndBum

Administrator
Staff member
That's interesting!

You pretend to be curious - but you have NOT read or NOT understood my posts from yesterday - as I described exactly this in great detail . . .

Or are you a real pirate?

Lying and cheating your way through life . . . ?
So a failed purpose was given to you as the reason you father killed himself. indication to your father which supposedly cured him of his depression was the proof you needed. What exactly is the proof?

As to my handle Pirate and Bum -- I guess you never listened to the PDC lectures.

For having done so very very little in scn it is surprising how you bought it all and after 45 years you are still buying it.
 
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Kalle

troubleshooter
He's been a "conspiracy promoter" for decades: LRH arrested in the 70's, Scientology
taken over by the CIA, and run by the government since then, etc. That's his shtick.
A true believer of that narrative, I guess.
You are a blatant LIAR!

Come back onto my lines - once you have exchanged your delusions for solid PROOF - I am not YOUR problem!
 

stratty

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
You are a blatant LIAR!

Come back onto my lines - once you have exchanged your delusions for solid PROOF - I am not YOUR problem!
Look matey, I don't know what it is you're looking for, but I have a strong suspicion you're not going to find it here. You are not going to sell scientology to many of us, I'm pretty sure of that, and you don't seem to have hit it off very well with anybody here as far as I can tell, so why don't you just run along and find another group of septuagenarians to play with, preferably one that hasn't come across scientology before. Who knows, you really might win some friends and influence them.
 
D

Deleted member 51

Guest
Hi Dotey OT,
I had only one wordclearing session at Flag with a Flag-wordclear in the summer of 1976. It was a desaster.
I had been studying in the AOSH EU in Copenhagen, in spring 76, and the Course was sceduled for two weeks. I studied for three month, and still had a confusion on the HCOPL Method 4 wordclearing, which would not resolve, although I had looked up all the words etc. over and over again . . .
I felt this was a deep seated confusion - that I could not handle by myself, and I kept asking for a WCCL - which had to be delivered by a Class VI Auditor. and was considered to be too expansive for staff I guess . . .
After three month of not being able to attest, there came a Flag-mission to pick people from all over Europe for Supervisor and even Auditor-Training at Flag, and I really WANTED that, as I had the Idea Flag had a much higher STANDARD of tech, and would help me out of my confusion on HCO PL Method 4 wordclearing.
So I ended my studies with a FALSE attest, and went to Flag. When my program was established, I said, that I had a confusion on this on PL which the AOSH EU could not resolve with me . . .
So I endet up with a overworked Flag wordclearer, who talked to me while finishing his last student's paperwork.
He pulled out the HCO PL on Method 4 and asked me to start reading aloud, as he declared to me we'd doi it wit method 3 while not even looking at me . . .
So I started to read the headline aloud - which I almost knew by heart - as I had studied this particular PL over and over again, on my course in Europe.
I think he made me look up 33 words on this short PL in a dictionary - and I realized quickly trhis guy had no clue whatsoever, what I been telling him before . . .
So I endet up totally pissed with a FALSE F/N indicated, and a FALSE F/N from the Examiner and I understood that Flag was not the place were Standard Tech was pure & perfect . . .
To cut a long story short,
I had my win on TR O, as I insisted on doing it the old & hard way - and Flag hated it - and today I think that STOP might well have saved my life . . .
Back in Copenhagen I insisted on a WCCL - which this time I received from Class VI Stig Jörgenson - and that Word Clearing Correction List endet after ten Minutes with my biggest win ever . . .
It listed TWO ERRORS: 1.) uncomplete TR's (thats my Flag-experience till today, and 2.) FAILED to go E/S in wordclearing, which finally HANDLED my confusion, which was an incident way back on my timetrack, and th FIRST word of that HCOPL Method 4 wordclearing, the wor "METHOD" had been the constant RESTIMULATOR, which I could only find and DISCHARGE with the help of a fantastic AUDITOR and that WCCL, as a standard tool in wordclearing that was NOT used, as it should have been . . .

Your second question I can not answer, as I have not ever had any DOUBT on the power of the wordclearing technology of 1975 / 1976 as the criminals on board back then were interested in OT-levels, PTS-tech and exteriorisation to screw it up - wordclearing almost never ever interested anybody back then . . .
I read about three paragraphs of your post and thought, this guy would have liked Method 2 and then at the end that's exactly what you said. For some background, I was trained and worked as a pro WCer in the SO for the EPF(when it was about 200 strong in the mid-70s) for over a year.

Although I've left scn completely, language is an odd thing and I saw some real weird stuff doing wordclearing... weirder stuff than I ever saw as a D of P or auditor or from OTs or OT levels.

Words represent complicated concepts and some of those concepts are powerfully basic. How we respond to each other, to written books and other things has to do with whether we perceive those words as negative or positive and some are just, well, packed. Maybe packed more than they should be.

I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but the power of words didn't start with Scientology and IMO, L Ron Hubbard barely touched on their real significance, and sort of missed the boat when he went off in this entirely different direction of alien invasion.

Anyway, just saying I totally get it and good for you. It doesn't happen to everybody. It's kind of rare, but when it does, it's quite a crash-bang, isn't it? The Jews had a similar idea about words, btw.
 

Kalle

troubleshooter
So a failed purpose indication to your father which supposedly cured him of his depression was the proof you needed.

As to my handle Pirate and Bum -- I guess you never listened to the PDC lectures.

For having done so very very little in scn it is surprising how you bought it all and after 45 years you are still buying it.
I call yo a LAZY pirate,

You still have NOT read or NOT understood what I wrote:

THIS will be my LAST effort with YOU - dear pirate . . .

In 1963 a MEDICAL Doctor commits suicide with NO apparent reason

For 12 years I search the medical world for an answer, AS I WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE CAUSE.

If you manage to find an honest medical doctor anywhere on the planet - he will tell you the same - they have NO clue whatsoever on the real CAUSE of depression & suicide, and even the criminal WHO said in 2015, that by 2030 suicide would be CAUSE No 1 for death on planet earth . . .

Most medical personel are LIARS as they sell PILLS (SSRI-drugs) that suppress the signals but handle NOTHING

The best PROOF you find yourself by contacting doctors or scientific papers, and they all say the same: WE CAN SUPPRESS THE SYMPTOMS, BUT WE DO NOT KNOW THE CAUSE.

I do not know if you think like a medical doctor - who thinks the BODY is the human being - and looks for the CAUSE of a depression in the BRAIN.

In the good old days in Germany BEFORE the crazy war - people knew the BODY, the MIND & the SOUL - but that has changed now, as everything is now reduced to the BODY, if you can follow . . . ?

Thats why it took 12 years - before I dared to look elsewhere for the CAUSE of depression - until this guy throws me two words: "failed purpose", which is comparable to a screwed up NAVIGATION towards a specific GOAL in your life.

You will understand what I mean - when you walk into world famous MAYO-CLINIC and tell the specialist who is giving you a DIAGNOSIS: My GOAL is broken, it doesn't work anymore, can you fix it, or do I need a transplant of my GOAL . . . ?

He will think you are crazy - because he KNOWS - your GOAL is not an organ like your liver . . .

And from HERE on you should start thinking for yourself:

WHO on this fucked up planet cares for YOUR GOAL?

WHERE do you go, if it's broken, missing, falsely programmed, hidden, invalidated or suppressed?

This is what happened to me after 12 years of SEARCHING in vain in the medical world only.

"FAILED PURPOSE" did not exist in Germany BEFORE Scientology!

That is why I had a com-lag first, but slowly I understood, that my dad had been directed into a FALSE life for him.

And THAT was the way most parents would "EDUCATE" their children into a "HAPPY" life . . .

What people AND medical doctors did not know - human beings are unique INDIVIDUALS - and everybody needs a different life and sometimes coaching to find his best possible life for him-SELF!

That is why I called my mom in 1975 and told her: You always wanted me to be a medical doctor - but I have now found the medical profession of the future - I want to study to become an AUDITOR.

So I put my brother onto lines and my mother also - but al Flag the enbtire family got screwed up - and mom died in 2003, and my brother on OTVII has completely withdrawn from all of the family . . .

So I have gotten all the answers I had been looking for regarding "depression" - but I had a new problem - that I have been STOPPED from becoming an AUDITOR ever since 1976, and that is MY PERSONAL FAILED PURPOSE!

But I am not the only one, that is having problems with church management, so WHY are you so shy or so scared or so what . . . ?

Most of the CLASS XII AUDITORS that Ron trained himself up to 1972 are dead or declared, or ended up like Quentin in Las Vegas - around that time I got to know those SQUIRRELS at Flag in 1976 - that let all this crazy stuff happen . . .

And if you have PROOF - that AMERICANS do understand and apply Scientology correctly anywhere in the United States of America - let me know, there is an open bill to be paid . . .

So I consider my self a lucky survivor, as I have created a beautiful family with my french wife, starting in 1977, and we have three happy girls, three sons in law and six happy & healthy grandchildren . . .

I need NO friends or "pen pals" - I just love to help, when help is needed - otherwise I prefer WRITING in german, as it is a much more sophisticated language, and I can much better express my thoughts, and I prefer right now to communicate to WOGS in Germany, Switzerland & Austria, WHO had been overwhelmed with US/Chinese BIO-WEAPON-ATTACK from the DEEP STATE, with the HIDDEN GOAL of sterilizing up to 7 Billion people on earth as written on the Georgia Guide Stones, which stand for forty years on public ground and promote GENOZIDE, and NO ONE IN AMERICA SEEM TO SENSE THAT COMING CRIME IN THE MAKING . . .
So if Amerika is unable to wake up to the REAL challenges in PRESENT TIME - don't worry - go back to sleep and have a nice day . . .

Life-Savers are highly trained - to not get knocked out - from drowning people in panic . . .

THAT is what happens, when you are too long and too close in contact with REAL professional criminals - that try to fool the entire planet
 

Kalle

troubleshooter
" . . . I have a strong suspicion . . . " get some pills!

Elvis was cool: "If you're looking for trouble - you've come to the right place . . . !"
 

stratty

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
You seem to believe that we are all incapable of distinguishing between the body and the mind (our thoughts). That's your first mistake (see, I am helping you out of the darkness you are wandering around in matey).

Your second (and far more serious mistake) is believing that scientology is the answer to anything other than having far too much money and far too much belief in the words of a conman and shyster.

Q: How many Clears are there?
A: None
Q: How many OT's are there?
A: None.

Nothing more needs to be said.
 
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