Auditing effectiveness...Does it really work?

[freethinker]

The Independents are such a minute, TINY, infinitesimal, incalculably small part of Scientology and Scientologists that I feel it is discussed way out of proportion to the who, what, when, where, how and what CRIMES are being committed here and now.

I stay focused on the cult. Diverting off the cult into some nondescript, non effective label does nothing to expose the rogue cult and is simply off track and a diversion of where I want to put my attention.

Independents come and go. It is a soft landing and many wake up after learning more, reading more, experiencing Fair Game and watching Leah Remini and the Aftermath !

I didn't say anything about not exposing the cult in favor of just going after Independent Scientology, but Scientology is Scientology and they are the way they are because of the tech and policy. The CO$ is said to be tiny and infinitesimal as well so if you don't follow independants then how would you know how big they are? They did file legal documents.

 

[Veda]

I doubt they would get very far with a suit against an indy organization. Kinda be like Methodists saying Baptists can't use the bible. What kind of religion would do such a thing? A business would. A religion - not so much.

Scientology is a business that incessantly reminds people that it's a "religion," so it's in a bit of a bind.

During the early 1980s, Lawrence West ("West" being the Anglicized version of his name, which eludes me at this moment) started the Reformed Church of Scientology and was quickly sued into submission, as I recall.

At that time, Scientology Inc. was very aggressive about trademarks and copyrights.

Have times changed?

 

[pineapple]

Scientology is a business that incessantly reminds people that it's a "religion," so it's in a bit of a bind.

During the early 1980s, Lawrence West ("West" being the Anglicized version of his name, which eludes me at this moment) started the Reformed Church of Scientology and was quickly sued into submission, as I recall.

At that time, Scientology Inc. was very aggressive about trademarks and copyrights.

Have times changed?

Maybe CoS has realized, in some belated lucid moment, that their reputation is in the toilet, and that attacking Indies who still have some faith in "Ron" and "the tech" doesn't help them and only further alienates people.

Given CoS's long history of shooting themselves in the foot it's hard to credit them with any common sense, but maybe they've realized their current public image is shit and this has shocked them into a momentary semblance of sanity on this point.

 

[stratty]

Maybe CoS has realized, in some belated lucid moment, that their reputation is in the toilet, and that attacking Indies who still have some faith in "Ron" and "the tech" doesn't help them and only further alienates people.

Given CoS's long history of shooting themselves in the foot it's hard to credit them with any common sense, but maybe they've realized their current public image is shit and this has shocked them into a momentary semblance of sanity on this point.

You're using the pronouns 'they' and 'them', but isn't it the truth that the only one who can actually change anything is DM himself? Given what I've learned about him here, I can't see that happening.

 

[Lulu Belle]

You're using the pronouns 'they' and 'them', but isn't it the truth that the only one who can actually change anything is DM himself? Given what I've learned about him here, I can't see that happening.

Yeah, I gotta agree with that.

Every time I've read "maybe the church has come to it's senses" about something...

.... uhm, no.

That's never what happens.

 

[Bill]

Dear Freethinker,

I have little to no knowledge of this area. I do have a couple of occasional Facebook friends who would call themselves Independent Scientology but that's as far as it goes.

It is baffling to me that the cult that huffs and puffs and threatens and snarls has never filed one single law suit on their copyrighted trademarked *tech* being used ~~ this group uses all of Hubbard per their Internet sites ~~

Why no law suit ? Do they believe they have already lost these trademarks. ?

I'm no lawyer but I'd guess that any sane court would simply say, "This isn't a legal issue, this is a religious issue, a religious schism, that can only be dealt with internally within the religion."

And that is totally true. The independents, as Scientologists, have every legal right to their full religion, texts, symbols and all. And the CoS knows this. If they took the independents to court, is is likely that would only confer legal legitimacy to the independents.

That would not apply to CoS' businesses: Able, Narconon, etc as those are business trademarks.

 

[Karen#1]

The cult fought tooth and nail in the Israeli courts to ban that runaway mission from practicing any of it. Haifa Mission, This played out in the Israeli courts and the little Haifa Mission won all the way up to their highest court.

Marc Yager was back in the game, even after living 2 years in the wilderness with only a garden hose to wash himself because he tried to buck Miscavige. Yager was the chief Missionaire arguing in front of the Judges who did not want to hear one damned thing about what Hubbard said and shut him down constantly. Yager is apparently tight with Miscavige again and has survived it all.

The Cult lost. The Mission in Israel can practice what it wants. This is just an example of an outcome of appealing to the courts. Albeit this was not a US court.

Marc Yager is more known by this group for his stalking Marty Rathbun at LAX with certifiably insane Jenny Linsen ("What are YOU doing to save mankind?)

This is Mark back in the day when he was Inspector General Admin

 

[Karen#1]

This is Marc Yager, Jenny Linson and David Bloomberg, all out of SP Hole to carry off this mission (this video was referred to above.)

 

[pineapple]

You're using the pronouns 'they' and 'them', but isn't it the truth that the only one who can actually change anything is DM himself? Given what I've learned about him here, I can't see that happening.

Yeah, well, I was including his BT's.

I know. Wishful thinking.

 

[Zertel]

If I recall correctly, on his blog Mike Rinder has said several times that the C of S hasn't sued anyone in at least the last five years. Maybe the Israeli mission is an exception.

Regarding the C of S suing one of the few indie groups left, those groups would mostly be mopping up blown Scientologists who are a lost cause to the C of S anyhow with no profit to be gained.

 

[Helena Handbasket]

Dear MAQ,

I'm going to attempt to answer your questions.

First of all, I'm a bit of a "moderate" here. While many posting on this forum are vehemently anti-tech, I do believe there is something of value there.

[1] I myself have had success with dianetics -- once the areas I wanted addressed were addressed. There is a tendency to look only at the Dianetic Original Assessment Sheet, and ask the client questions in those areas (like problems you've had with your mother). Once this list is finished, you are done, and you've never had a chance to talk about what was on your mind. The OAS covers a lot but it also tends to "box you in" to only discussing what was on the list.

Having said that, the results you get ARE permanent. But it's easy to not dig deep enough, and while some part of a particular traumatized area may be cleaned out, any bits and pieces that were left will get you. (Aside: there are "wins" and there are "gains". Wins are temporary, like the feeling you get when you win a race. Gains are permanent, like building up your leg muscles by practicing every day.)

But dianetics, while it was designed to handle moments of shock, will not fix ALL such moments. Some things are just too deep for dianetics to deal with. (I myself have had a broken relationship that I'm still struggling with).

[2] If you define "clear" as being eligible to receive a certificate saying you have attained the state of clear, it took me about 5 to 6 years. If you define it as attaining all the qualities a clear is SUPPOSED to have, according to the hype, it has never been done. L. Ron Hubbard made it a point to claim as much "result" as he could for each level, knowing that most people if not all would never achieve all the results. (This was his way of growing his church as quickly as possible.)

[3] Self-analysis lists are generally NOT part of an auditing program. (Exception: the next-to-last list in the book IS included in the standard bridge. They call it ARC Straightwire.) It might be a good idea to just buy the book and do it, before even talking to them about auditing, if you want to "do the program". You can finish in a few weeks if you keep at it.

[4] You are encouraged to become a member right away; but I'm sure there's a point where you will NOT be permitted to continue without a membership card. They have a six-month free introductory membership to get you started. (I remember being reluctant to accept this, wanting to know a bit more about the organization before I join it. They didn't care to explain what it was all about until I made them, concentrating instead on the fact it was free. Which is a bit strange because they have a policy of refusing services to anyone who joins an opposing group; not caring if you agree with that group or not, just joining it is sufficient to make you "one of them".)

But I haven't encountered an independent group or practitioner that has any sort of membership at all. (If you do want auditing, I strongly recommend the independents -- a lot less ********.)

[5] Yes, you ARE expected to re-experience the incident over and over again. Otherwise it wouldn't work. The ultimate goal is "revivification", where you experience it just like it was happening in the present. But once you have accomplished this, the practitioner is supposed to stop, and you're supposed to have a great feeling of relief.

If you DO get overwhelmed, the fix is always to keep doing it -- until "you come out the other side". 1950's style dianetics sessions could run for many hours.

[6] If there is some incident that is just TOO MUCH for you to talk about, then say so. They're supposed to work those incidents you CAN deal with first, and then when you're stronger, go back to "the big one".

[7] They make a big deal about confidentiality, but there is no confidentiality WITHIN the church. If you confess to a big crime, you can bet they'll go straight to the Ethics Officer (the last person you would want to know) and tell HIM all about it.

[8] I consider dianetics to be an outgrowth of Freudian abreaction therapy. Hubbard said dianetics was "a bolt from the blue" as if it had no precedent. Not true. To answer your question, the wording of the commands is slightly different, that's all.

[9] I myself was terrified of communication. (Maybe I was really terrified of people in general.) The TR's let you practice communication skills in a structured environment. This is good for those who communicate poorly, but since auditing consists mainly of communicating back and forth, its main purpose is to empower future auditors to do their job better.

I hope this has helped.

Helena

 

[Karen#1]

If I recall correctly, on his blog Mike Rinder has said several times that the C of S hasn't sued anyone in at least the last five years. Maybe the Israeli mission is an exception.

Regarding the C of S suing one of the few indie groups left, those groups would mostly be mopping up blown Scientologists who are a lost cause to the C of S anyhow with no profit to be gained.

The cult has not sued Media ~~ any media for at least 15 years. They do pile on threat letters.
All Bogus. All Hot air. All bark and no bite.

In Israel, I am not sure that the cult initiated the law suit or were responding.

Even though Dani Lemberger had been a Mission Holder for 20 years, they put up a hate page on him stating he was a DRUG DEALER. LOL
Then they upped the ante and called him out as a DRUG DEALER for a CARTEL.

!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't recall exactly but I think the law suit started with the complaints of Fair Game "drug dealer" and ended up on trademark/copyright.

 

[pineapple]

[8] I consider dianetics to be an outgrowth of Freudian abreaction therapy. Hubbard said dianetics was "a bolt from the blue" as if it had no precedent. Not true. To answer your question, the wording of the commands is slightly different, that's all.

I think Hubbard was also highly influenced by the work of two hypnotists who wrote books in the 1940's, G. H. Estabrooks and Andrew Salter. Some of what they have to say sounds very much like parts of DMSMH, and preceded it by several years.

From G. H. Estabrooks "Hypnotism," originally published in 1943:

"... the kleptomaniac and the pyromaniac are really working under a posthypnotic suggestion -- minus the hypnotist. They act in exactly the same way as if they had been hypnotized and given their instructions in the trance. As a matter of fact we will see that they have been hypnotized at some time in their life and given the suggestion in question. The fact that no hypnotist was involved, that they may never have seen a hypnotist in all their life, we will see, has no bearing on the question." -- page 95.

"We will see that emotional shock produces exactly the same results as hypnotism, that hypnotism may in reality be a form of emotional shock. We are not clear on this point, but we do know that shock gives us the phenomena of hypnotism and vice versa." -- page 110.

Link to where this originally appeared, "Has Anybody Run An Engram" on ESMB 1

Has anybody run an Engram?

This is a ex scientology message board. Have any of you people that regularly post here, ever run an engram?

exscn.net

 

[programmer_guy]

@pineapple

My opinion:
Long term memory is a copy of short term memory (brain activity).
Short term memory is formed in the prefrontal cortex.
If the prefrontal cortex is disabled (unconsciousness) then, during that time, there is no short term memory being recorded.
If there is no short term memory recorded, during that time, then there is nothing to be copied later to long term memory.
So, Hubbard's definition of engram is not true (pseudoscience).

However, bad experiences during consciousness can/will affect us? Yes.
(And, BTW, the e-meter pinch test has nothing to do with so-called engrams.)

 

[Zertel]

@pineapple

My opinion:
Long term memory is a copy of short term memory (brain activity).
Short term memory is formed in the prefrontal cortex.
If the prefrontal cortex is disabled (unconsciousness) then, during that time, there is no short term memory being recorded.
If there is no short term memory recorded, during that time, then there is nothing to be copied later to long term memory.
So, Hubbard's definition of engram is not true (pseudoscience).

However, bad experiences during consciousness can/will affect us? Yes.
(And, BTW, the e-meter pinch test has nothing to do with so-called engrams.)

A person would recall the moment before going unconscious and the moment of awakening. There are reports of people recalling some parts of an incident while unconscious but that might be explained by the prefrontal cortex somehow becoming temporarily reactivated. The many reports of the near death experience is a different subject.

Two years ago on a Scn blog a university psychology professor participated for a couple of months. She mentioned that there might be as many mysteries to discover about how the brain works as there are mysteries about how the universe works.

She also mentioned that she thought auditors would make good psychologists since they are/were interested in helping people. In her opinion some of the procedures and phenomena encountered in Scn of which she was aware cross referenced mainstream psychology and auditors becoming psychologists would need to rename them.

 

[Zertel]

Dear MAQ,

I'm going to attempt to answer your questions.

First of all, I'm a bit of a "moderate" here. While many posting on this forum are vehemently anti-tech, I do believe there is something of value there.

[1] I myself have had success with dianetics -- once the areas I wanted addressed were addressed. There is a tendency to look only at the Dianetic Original Assessment Sheet, and ask the client questions in those areas (like problems you've had with your mother). Once this list is finished, you are done, and you've never had a chance to talk about what was on your mind. The OAS covers a lot but it also tends to "box you in" to only discussing what was on the list.

Having said that, the results you get ARE permanent. But it's easy to not dig deep enough, and while some part of a particular traumatized area may be cleaned out, any bits and pieces that were left will get you. (Aside: there are "wins" and there are "gains". Wins are temporary, like the feeling you get when you win a race. Gains are permanent, like building up your leg muscles by practicing every day.)

But dianetics, while it was designed to handle moments of shock, will not fix ALL such moments. Some things are just too deep for dianetics to deal with. (I myself have had a broken relationship that I'm still struggling with).

[2] If you define "clear" as being eligible to receive a certificate saying you have attained the state of clear, it took me about 5 to 6 years. If you define it as attaining all the qualities a clear is SUPPOSED to have, according to the hype, it has never been done. L. Ron Hubbard made it a point to claim as much "result" as he could for each level, knowing that most people if not all would never achieve all the results. (This was his way of growing his church as quickly as possible.)

[3] Self-analysis lists are generally NOT part of an auditing program. (Exception: the next-to-last list in the book IS included in the standard bridge. They call it ARC Straightwire.) It might be a good idea to just buy the book and do it, before even talking to them about auditing, if you want to "do the program". You can finish in a few weeks if you keep at it.

[4] You are encouraged to become a member right away; but I'm sure there's a point where you will NOT be permitted to continue without a membership card. They have a six-month free introductory membership to get you started. (I remember being reluctant to accept this, wanting to know a bit more about the organization before I join it. They didn't care to explain what it was all about until I made them, concentrating instead on the fact it was free. Which is a bit strange because they have a policy of refusing services to anyone who joins an opposing group; not caring if you agree with that group or not, just joining it is sufficient to make you "one of them".)

But I haven't encountered an independent group or practitioner that has any sort of membership at all. (If you do want auditing, I strongly recommend the independents -- a lot less ********.)

[5] Yes, you ARE expected to re-experience the incident over and over again. Otherwise it wouldn't work. The ultimate goal is "revivification", where you experience it just like it was happening in the present. But once you have accomplished this, the practitioner is supposed to stop, and you're supposed to have a great feeling of relief.

If you DO get overwhelmed, the fix is always to keep doing it -- until "you come out the other side". 1950's style dianetics sessions could run for many hours.

[6] If there is some incident that is just TOO MUCH for you to talk about, then say so. They're supposed to work those incidents you CAN deal with first, and then when you're stronger, go back to "the big one".

[7] They make a big deal about confidentiality, but there is no confidentiality WITHIN the church. If you confess to a big crime, you can bet they'll go straight to the Ethics Officer (the last person you would want to know) and tell HIM all about it.

[8] I consider dianetics to be an outgrowth of Freudian abreaction therapy. Hubbard said dianetics was "a bolt from the blue" as if it had no precedent. Not true. To answer your question, the wording of the commands is slightly different, that's all.

[9] I myself was terrified of communication. (Maybe I was really terrified of people in general.) The TR's let you practice communication skills in a structured environment. This is good for those who communicate poorly, but since auditing consists mainly of communicating back and forth, its main purpose is to empower future auditors to do their job better.

I hope this has helped.

Helena

Hubbard had something to say about damn near everything. If nothing else, being in scientology was a basis for comparison.

Assuming everyone being a bit tipsy, at a cocktail party I can carry on a conversation with anyone regarding the extrasensory, paranormal or supernatural.

 

[BTW]

Hubbard had something to say about damn near everything. If nothing else, being in scientology was a basis for comparison.

Assuming everyone being a bit tipsy, at a cocktail party I can carry on a conversation with anyone regarding the extrasensory, paranormal or supernatural.

"Hubbard had something to say about damn near everything." - LOL!

He "knew better" about anything and everything than anybody else. (NOT)

He HAD to smash his name into history.

Ha-Ha

 

[BTW]

I don't think anyone would argue with that. I certainly wouldn't.

Very diplomatic!

(Love that)

 

[MAQ]

What you have to ask first is: what are the proven effective therapies for OCD, PTSD, and mood and anxiety disorders? ;
Then you will come up with clinical studies, regarding effectiveness of several therapies, but one way or the other, it will relate to the psychology field, but in no way to either Dianetics or $scientology.

Dianetics, scientology, auditing have never ever been proven effective since they are actually not considered as therapies nor they belong to the mental health field. Neither any clinical study have ever been conducted to evaluate their effectiveness regarding mental health care.

No research has ever been done. It's all based on the guru pretense who was a ty a charlatan, liar and suffered severe mental illness and personality disorder.

Among effective proven therapies are cognitive behavioral therapy and EMDR which can be both delivered either by a licensed psychologist or physiotherapist.

The good news are that the price is very affordable, they can work in a short time base and are focussed on getting results VS client goals achievement.

Regarding Scientogy; It is a money scam and may defenitely worsen any mental condition. It's an abusive cult and their processes are only oriented to control people and manipulate their mind in beliefs like they are invaded by Ms y entities they must cure with expensive auditing. You can find many testimonies in searching for psychotic breaks and suicides in scientology.

Get professional help if you need mental health care!

I have already tried CBT but it didnt help much. That's why i am looking into alternative therapies now. I am interested in EMDR but haven't been able to find a therapist who practices that. The kind of information i got on the internet about scientology was scary to say the least but the person who told me about dianetics is someone i trust with my heart and the auditor he referred me to, left scientology years ago. He told me that he has seen some people who went through a mental breakdown & could't even talk or walk properly and after a few months of auditing sessions they went back running and laughing. The thing is that, i have already tried conventional therapy where they made me go through the traumatic experiences over and over again and it didnt even help a bit. I told him about my experience too but he said if i did this with a professional auditor following the actual auditing procedure, the results would be different. I am not sure how and i dont just wanna waste more money only to find out later that its the exact same technique that psychotherapists use and that i've already tried out. So, I am a bit confused right now.

 

[Type4_PTS]

I have already tried CBT but it didnt help much. That's why i am looking into alternative therapies now. I am interested in EMDR but haven't been able to find a therapist who practices that. The kind of information i got on the internet about scientology was scary to say the least but the person who told me about dianetics is someone i trust with my heart and the auditor he referred me to, left scientology years ago. He told me that he has seen some people who went through a mental breakdown & could't even talk or walk properly and after a few months of auditing sessions they went back running and laughing. The thing is that, i have already tried conventional therapy where they made me go through the traumatic experiences over and over again and it didnt even help a bit. I told him about my experience too but he said if i did this with a professional auditor following the actual auditing procedure, the results would be different. I am not sure how and i dont just wanna waste more money only to find out later that its the exact same technique that psychotherapists use and that i've already tried out. So, I am a bit confused right now.

Hi MAQ,

Glad to see you back here.

I was worried you weren't coming back!

Here are some general thoughts about your post here.

I wouldn't necessarily look for any single therapy to address all of those issues you're wanting to resolve. Some therapies may be very effective for one of the issues but not others, so I would recommend attacking them individually.

There are many therapies I'd try before I try Dianetics. Some people have felt they've received benefits through its use, but also some felt they got worse, so it's like playing Russian Roulette in a way. It sounds as though your friend recommending it to you does believe in it. But the thing about trusted friends is that while they would never intentionally recommend something to us that may not be in our best interests, they may themselves be misinformed.

Whatever type of practitioner you choose to go to, whether a psychologist, an EFT practitioner, an EDMR practitioner, or something else, I would recommend interviewing a number of them, finding one who has a successful track record in resolving the issues you're wishing to address, and picking someone you're comfortable working with. Also, I'd find out what certifications they have. With EFT I know there are several different levels of certifications.

You mentioned that you were interested in EDMR therapy but couldn't find a local practitioner. I've heard of practitioners helping someone virtually so that's a possibility you can look into . There's a site about that here:

Virtual EMDR

#1 Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing EMDR online self-guided therapy program. Mental health treatment for PTSD, childhood trauma, depression, anxiety, addiction, stress, anger management, grief

virtualemdr.com

(EDIT:. Appearently this is some do it yourself at home program. Not what I thought it was when I looked earlier)


Also, another site that lists practitioners. You may find one there you like that practices remotely as well:

12051 EMDR Therapist - EMDR Therapist 12051 - EMDR Counseling 12051

Find EMDR Therapists, Psychologists and EMDR Counseling in 12051, get help for EMDR in 12051.

www.psychologytoday.com

Good luck MAQ! Get back to us and let us know how it goes.