Auditing effectiveness...Does it really work?

Thanks for making my point. You are absolutely invested in being dismissive here. "Cherry-picked"? That's a flat-out lie. These testimonials are honest and heartfelt, sent to me by my participants, and I post every all of them on my website- I don't "cherry-pick" selectively. And as to saying I'm "just like Hubbard", you expose and embarrass yourself. Since you can't or won't retrain your tendency to be utterly childish and intentionally offensive toward me, and the admin here finds that acceptable, then from this point forward, I'm done with you, I won't respond any further to your provocations.
If you were able to duplicate what I wrote, the conversation would be a lot more civil. Since you can't understand what I actually wrote and since you create antagonism that does not exist on my part, it would probably be best if you did ignore me.
 
I have to say this, I have been on the alert since you-know-who showed up back at you-know-where. That's just me personally, I will not speak for anyone else here, I have only been around for a very short while compared to most of you. You guys have probably seen a lot!!

At any rate, I have to say I love the candor and thought put into just this thread. I hope @MAQ hasn't been put off by all this, and has their question answered.

Since I have been here I've seen about three people that came on and posted about their "special therapy" or "special abilities." The guy that said he could write with his mind, Andy Nolch hasn't been around these parts, maybe he won't be allowed, there was something else, but I am too lazy to go back over to the old place and look. That's just in a few months, really.

But here is what I want to say with all this, that it would be pretty damn crazy to come onto this board and hang a therapy shingle, or advertise of a "fantastic new approach" or "the holy grail of therapy." Look where it gets you. This group isn't cynical, just razor sharp on this particular point. It's like trying to hide the elephant in the living room, just ain't gonna happen.
 
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But here is what I want to say with all this, that it would be pretty damn crazy to come onto this board and hang a therapy shingle, or advertise of a "fantastic new approach" or "the holy grail of therapy." Look where it gets you. This group isn't cynical, just razor sharp on this particular point. It's like trying to hide the elephant in the living room, just ain't gonna happen.
Hilarious! :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

I haven't posted on this thread because I went through all the discussions
on the Idenics thread years ago. It ended up nowhere. What I wrote then:

A fully realized and completed subject, a marketable subject would spell out everything. It could be taught out of the book in colleges and to therapists/counselors around the world. Results could be quantified and tested. Otherwise the book is just a lead generator for a private counseling practice. A local “mom and pop” therapy practice, I call it. Which is OK. Just calling it as I see it.​
​
Realize one thing: people that didn’t hold Hubbard’s “feet to the fire” when they had the chance to (like me) are going to be extra critical of anyone else presenting any “answer” in any aspect of life from then on. Doing the proper due diligence, that is, next time around.​

Unless someone writes a book and explains the technique so others can
understand it easily, replicate it easily, and replicate the results easily, you
have nothing but a local neighborhood therapy practice. It dies when the
main practitioner retires or dies.

Beyond that, it's a lot of noise and fury signifying little or nothing, IMO.

Sorry, life is tough that way.
 
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Hilarious! :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

I haven't posted on this thread because I went through all the discussions
on the Idenics thread years ago. It ended up nowhere. What I wrote then:

A fully realized and completed subject, a marketable subject would spell out everything. It could be taught out of the book in colleges and to therapists/counselors around the world. Results could be quantified and tested. Otherwise the book is just a lead generator for a private counseling practice. A local “mom and pop” therapy practice, I call it. Which is OK. Just calling it as I see it.​
​
Realize one thing: people that didn’t hold Hubbard’s “feet to the fire” when they had the chance to (like me) are going to be extra critical of anyone else presenting any “answer” in any aspect of life from then on. Doing the proper due diligence, that is, next time around.​

Unless someone writes a book and explains the technique so others can
understand it easily, replicate it easily, and replicate the results easily, you
have nothing but a local neighborhood therapy practice. It dies when the
main practitioner retires or dies.

Beyond that, it's a lot of noise and fury signifying little or nothing, IMO.

Sorry, life is tough that way.
I keep running into things to "peel" off since the cult. Was just outside working on the yard thinking, I could talk to someone that said they were a scientologist, and know within about ten seconds of talking, their level of involvement, training level, time in the cult, their personal "KSW" (spit), you know what I mean. I was in long enough, eyes open enough, willing to ask the questions, to know. BUT, I would have to learn something about this thing called "real mental therapy or help", because I would probably use an incorrect criteria. Just what @Glenda said above. I've lived a few years and know a couple of things, hung around here and there, I know a couple things. But mental therapy, nope.

But I am getting better at spotting what thoughts are mine that aren't influenced by the tek, etc.
 
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I am going to quietly wade in here. Real name: Glenda.

People speak of academic qualifications and certificates on the wall. That is only one part of professional therapy. The other part is possibly, imo, more important. Supervision of the therapy, the therapist and monitoring codes of conduct. The coal-face of healthy therapy can be full of tears and rising fears and snot and inspection of some pretty grizzly stuff. Of course there is the pretty happy-clappy light-weight version of therapy which doesn’t go very deep and that is fine too. I can only speak from what I, gratefully, experienced.

Some realities: testimonials only go so far. No one advertises their bad feedback. The one where inappropriate touching might have allegedly happened or where the client was (emotionally, psychologically) swamped by the therapist during a particularly vulnerable period. Or where a highly inappropriate boundary is violated, let's say flirting enters the therapy. This is a short list of the things that can go wrong during therapy. I didn’t want to know the happy success stories of former clients, I wanted to know I was in good hands as I spilt my guts all over an office floor and tried to make sense of things. I wanted the therapist to build a safe place for me to explore my pain. This is intimate stuff so the person offering their services needed to have their shit together. I needed to have real trust to do some deep work.

Healthy therapy has back-up. A safe place for both the therapist and the client to go if things go a little, or a lot, pear-shaped. One of the things I have always asked when I have begun therapy with someone new is "who is supervising your work please?" It protected both of us. That supervision must be secure under strict codes of conduct for privacy reasons. I have had these discussions with therapists. I speak not from a hole in my left foot. The other factor is I liked knowing the therapist had a safe place to go if they needed support. Listening to people's darkest secrets and fears can impact another human, trained or not. The more training and years of experience does tend to keep the therapist in a stronger position but not always. My first therapist was still going for her professional certification. She was incredibly careful and alert. The safety of both therapist and client is imperative imo. It helps provide a safe place where trust can be genuinely built, without agendas. This is not provided by testimonials of former clients but by a robust transparent structure supporting the therapist – and client.

Professional bodies/associations: This is beyond academic qualifications and certificates hanging on walls. This is the car that has been test-run on the road, is reliable and can deal with the tight corners type thing. It is not enough for testimonials, self-promotion and word-of-mouth to be the deciding factors about who you let inside your head and your heart. Things can get very triggered when working with trauma and other mental health issues. There has to be support in the background for the therapist to brainstorm and get a different perspective on things. Even good life-coaches belong to professional associations to give the best possible support to clients - and themselves. Ego should not come into play when a healthy therapeutic relationship is sought.

Note: I am not trying to be right – or righteous – with the above. I am writing it so that anyone who may be considering entering therapy potentially has something to reflect upon. Trust is vital to heal wounds, etc. If the structure behind a therapist is not transparent, without agenda, without healthy support for both therapist and client, then there are way more risks.

What’s my view of people taking scientology methods and bending them around a bit, then setting up shop? I have had some excellent psychological based therapy and the two methods are not in the same league. I am fully aware that some psych based therapy can be total bullshit but my experience was supportive of my spiritual, emotional and psychological needs. Having worked with professional therapists I would never consult a therapist without the structures in place that I mention above. Internal monitoring (such as scientology uses) of therapy is fraught with potential danger. Only external monitoring can, in the long run, provide robust safety for all involved. Imo and experience.


Jesus, Glenda.

You really come up with some amazing posts.
 
I'm sorry, I haven't seen your question, what was it? Rudiments were an Alan Walter contribution. Sometimes they were helpful and appropriate, but mostly they were used to key out and get out of the way the issues and problems that really mattered to you so that the focus could be on the zillion irrelevant subjects of the grade chart.
It's a few posts back, but if rudiments ruin a session because they key out what should be audited, then why not run them at the end instead of the beginning?
 
ooops posted on wrong thread (deleted)

.
 
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But here is what I want to say with all this, that it would be pretty damn crazy to come onto this board and hang a therapy shingle, or advertise of a "fantastic new approach" or "the holy grail of therapy." Look where it gets you. This group isn't cynical, just razor sharp on this particular point. It's like trying to hide the elephant in the living room, just ain't gonna happen.


Yeah. It pretty much always goes like this when some kind of Freezone practitioner shows up.

I'd like to tell Dex Gelfand not to take it personally, but I think he's already past that point.

I am kind of surprised he got as angry and upset as he did. You'd kind of think he would have expected it.

I guess not everyone is made of Teflon like Terrill...
 
.

THINGS THAT HELP SPIRITUAL LEADERS ATTRACT SPIRITS
View attachment 392
(spiritual stuff)



THINGS THAT DON'T HELP SPIRITUAL LEADERS ATTRACT SPIRITS
(stuff like this)

DALAI LAMA
. . . and so we must rise above the human condition and
continue to love our fellow man despite what they have done to us.

SOMEONE IN CROWD
Hey, Lama! My sister-in-law went to see you for healing
and even donated 25,000 dollars to your new temple--but now
they increased the dosage of her anti-psychotic medication.
So obviously your shit don't work.

DALAI LAMA
Fuck You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.




​

HH,

To my knowledge the Dalai-Lama never promess anything and certainly not to heal people. He is more and advocate of cultivating mindfulness ( via meditation and concrete actions, and kindness ) as a way to avoid unnecessary suffering which would create better families,communities, societies and world.

As a Buddhist, the more money I spent yearly, to cover my meditation classes, courses, lectures, celebrations etc... was no more than the equivalent of 300 $ US. I never ever was asked any money or donations.

When I see a Tibetan Lama physician (graduated from a school of Medicine) it cost me the equivalent of 40 $ US; However, I would get an apt even it couldn't afford the cost. The Dalaï-lama is not a physician thus he doesn't heal.

If you want to point flaws, regarding money, his entourage should be a better target IMO.

😉
 
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Yeah. It pretty much always goes like this when some kind of Freezone practitioner shows up.

I'd like to tell Dex Gelfand not to take it personally, but I think he's already past that point.

I am kind of surprised he got as angry and upset as he did. You'd kind of think he would have expected it.

I guess not everyone is made of Teflon like Terrill...


I watched the video and thought Dex was sincere in his wish to help others and enthusiasm for what he believed was a superior counseling technique or approach. As far as I understood, he put quite a lot of importance on addressing ("handling") what the client wants to handle, rather than a boilerplate approach Grade Chart, like Scientologists are crazy glued to.

Okay, I thought that was a nice improvement, but it also seemed to me that conventional "best practices" in psychology has known and used that approach since---forever. Perhaps I misunderstood what Dex was pointing to that was the "holy grail", that could be.

Now here is a kind of ironic thing I observed on this thread. He received a lot of unexpected negative reactions and he didn't like it at all. He got pretty feisty and nasty in pushing back against those he perceived were libeling his professional practice and livlihood. That much seems clear, but here is a big WHAT IF. . . .

WHAT IF Dex approached the members of this message board as he advises he approaches his counseling clients? Instead of "feeding" others his system (grade chart) what if he addressed what people here "wanted to handle"----exactly as he described his breakthrough technique. I would think he would be certain to get an entirely different and far more supportive/positive approach.

I have been here a while (LOL) and am quite sure that what people here DO NOT WANT HANDLED is a technique that is promoted in any way that reminds them of Scientology promo & promises.

Hey Dex, what do you think about a complete DO-OVER of your approach on this thread? You might even consider starting another thread with a different NAME that doesn't have ANY similarity to the sound and vibe of a Hubbard "breakthrough".

CONCLUSION: Try your technique on everyone again, think of it as "group processing" and help the client (the people on this website) in a way they WANT to be helped, rather than a pre-ordained path that you want them to either try (for themesleves) or agree to.

Honestly, I think it's that simple. The approach was not optimized for success. And if you decide to try a "re-boot", you might consider very patiently answering people's questions, concerns, doubts and disagreements----so that they feel you are talking WITH them rather than DOWN AT THEM, see what I mean?

Well, i think I'll just put my motorcycle helmet on now, just in case this post is viewed as an "attack" which it certainly is not.

.
 
HH,

To my knowledge the Dalai-Lama never promess anything and certainly not to heal people. He is more and advocate of cultivating mindfulness ( via meditation and concrete actions, and kindness as) as a way to avoid unnecessary suffering which would create better families,communities, societies and world.

As a Buddhist, the more money I spend yearly, to cover me meditation classes, courses, lectures, celebrations etc... was no more than the equivalent of 300 $ US. I never ever was ask any money or donations.

When I see a Tibetan Lama physician it cost me the equivalent of 40 $ US and would get an apt even it can't afford the cost. The Dalaï-lama is not a physician thus he doesn't heal.

If you want to point flaws, regarding money, his entourage should be a better target IMO.

😉


Sure, i am happy with what you posted.

I never had anything negative to say (or think) about the Dalai Lama, whatsoever. I just picked out a symbolic person that was quite famous, wonderfully well-respected and an icon of spiritual values.

Sorry you thought i was criticizing the Dalai Lama, quite the opposite. When my spoof post has him yelling "FUCK YOU" it was to show how ludicrous it would be for a "spiritual" leader to behave that way. I was trying to make a point that Dex was not doing himself any favors by snapping back with hostility whilst trying to establish his bona fides as a professional counselor of the mind and spirit. See my point? :)

Namaste, madmoiselle!

.
 
I never had anything negative to say (or think) about the Dalai Lama, whatsoever. I just picked out a symbolic person that was quite famous, wonderfully well-respected and an icon of spiritual values.

Sorry you thought i was criticizing the Dalai Lama, quite the opposite. When my spoof post has him yelling "FUCK YOU" it was to show how ludicrous it would be for a "spiritual" leader to behave that way. I was trying to make a point that Dex was not doing himself any favors by snapping back with hostility whilst trying to establish his bona fides as a professional counselor of the mind and spirit. See my point? :)

Namaste, madmoiselle!

.

Yes I see your point now; Sorry as I didn't read the whole thread which is made of the exact same arguments, pretense and behavior seen on ESMB 10 years ago.... 🙄


But hey, I am an advocate of criticizing the Dalai-Lama ; I do it myself when I disagree with some of his sayings.

Although the old man is quite a good philosopher and teacher. He also is very funny. 😊

But when you find some " real flaws” let's go and make some funny parodies😊
(for example him (them) sitting on a throne as the path to humbleness....

Namaste
ML
This is true ☺️
 
Well, i think I'll just put my motorcycle helmet on now, just in case this post is viewed as an "attack" which it certainly is not.

.


Hey, If in danger call the Mamoiselle frog... I need to get some adrenaline out of my degraded body.
💪
😊
 
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The Dalai Lama is quite a wise fellow and is known for his equanimity.

Just one of many testimonials.

​

Yes, from my personal observation I'd also say equanimity is his main characteristic ( his absence of hate toward China governments speaks for it) second would be equally his compassion and sense of humour.
 
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Yeah. It pretty much always goes like this when some kind of Freezone practitioner shows up.

I'd like to tell Dex Gelfand not to take it personally, but I think he's already past that point.

I am kind of surprised he got as angry and upset as he did. You'd kind of think he would have expected it.

I guess not everyone is made of Teflon like Terrill...

Keep remain in good shape!
David St-Laurence shall (normally) show up to introduce to entities invaded prospects.

😋
 
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Yes to your question about seeing a psychologist. I nearly passed out in the waiting room the first time I saw a psych-trained therapist. I am ex-CCHR and was up to my eyeballs in "the psychs are evil". I had a "brilliant" panic attack in the waiting room. I didn't think I'd make it into the therapists office without collapsing. I wanted to run out into the car-park. By the time I got into her office I was inelegantly glowing with sweat. I told her I was terrified, and why. She addressed my insane fears with dignity and calm.

So much of what my phobias were based on (Hubbard's stuff) became irrelevant once I started therapy. My spirituality was respected, encouraged even. I was very wary in the beginning. I think I was a total pain to be honest. I insisted the door be left ajar - my theory was if I didn't like what was happening I could get out of the room easily and run like hell to the car-park. My "the car-park is my safe place" theory. :eyeroll::

Later on I worked with a really experienced psychologist. I was still a little "psychs are all evil" and I told him that. We ended up working really well in a therapeutic relationship. I was able to "use him" to help me overcome the phobias scientology had installed. He encouraged me to explore, freely, what my fears of the psychs were based on. Terrific bloke. A very funny man too.

My point is, it can be done. A good psychologist, therapist, is worth working with if you can form a trusting therapeutic relationship. For me it wasn't easy in the beginning. I had that head-full of "the psychs are evil" to work through. But I did and I reckon if I can anyone can. :)

Same here, I had personal encounters with psychs and knew about lots of abused cases first hand. Thank you for sharing your experience and I am glad to see that a number of people here did go see someone and found it beneficial. ;)
 
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