OT VIII "Confidential" Student Briefing

[Panda Termint]

In a message exchange I had with Trey Lotz last year, he said a lot of people actually felt they had gains on OT VIII. He's of the opinion though that the Fishman doc is some concoction.

Yep, that's my experience too. The thing is that whilst we've heard plenty from detractors we don't hear much from those of a differing opinion. They seem somehow unwilling to counter the accepted narrative or be seen as endorsing scientology in any way. I'm sort of like that in some ways, I'd hate for my words to be taken as an endorsement of scientology but, at the same time, I see no point in sitting on the sidelines while people are being misled or misinformed about things I know about. What other use could I possibly have for this experential knowledge? I'm only here to help educate and perhaps impact upon still-in lurkers. OTVIII, Class VI, Hubbard Advanced Technical Specialist means nothing in the real world but it still means something to still-in scientologists. If any of that particular breed of cat heeds my words, I'm going to feel that posting here has been well worth the effort.

 

[Veda]

-snip-

The saddest complaints about OTVIII that I've seen stem from people unwilling to let go of the misconception of some precious past identity.

-snip-

Why should they let go of a past identity?

Because the e-meter tells then so? Because some procedure tells them so?

This is Hubbard's case superimposed over others.

 

[Panda Termint]

Why should they let go of a past identity?

Because the e-meter tells then so? Because some procedure tells them so?

This is Hubbard's case superimposed over others.

Gee, let me think. Maybe because their belief in that past identity is most likely delusional? Do delusional beliefs about Self help or hinder in life, I wonder? Remember all those Jesuses, Napoleans, Cleopatras, etc in scientology that we're always laughing about? That.

 

[Veda]

Gee, let me think. Maybe because their belief in that past identity is most likely delusional? Do delusional beliefs about Self help or hinder in life, I wonder? Remember all those Jesuses, Napoleans, Cleopatras, etc in scientology that we're always laughing about? That.

Who is to say? The Hubbard Guidance Center?

The (adverized) premise of auditing is that the person decides from himself. (Minus subtle coercion.)

This is broader than New OT 8, and also broader then the 1980 Student Briefing.

This is a matter of Hubbard deteriorating and his followers following him down.

 

[Panda Termint]

Who is to say? The Hubbard Guidance Center?

The (adverized) premise of auditing is that the person decides from himself. (Minus subtle coercion.)

This is broader than New OT 8, and also broader then the 1980 Student Briefing.

This is a matter of Hubbard deteriorating and his followers following him down.

Lol, and you apparently think that people doing OT8 don't decide for themselves. You're misinformed but we're going around in circles. You know one of the actual barriers to learning is the idea that you already know all about it. Let me know if you ever decide that you want to learn something new about OT8, until then, I'll leave you to it.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Gee, let me think. Maybe because their belief in that past identity is most likely delusional? Do delusional beliefs about Self help or hinder in life, I wonder? Remember all those Jesuses, Napoleans, Cleopatras, etc in scientology that we're always laughing about? That.

Panda, how many HCOBs were part of the VIII course that were specific to the level itself. I've heard a couple renditions of what is on the level but never really have heard any specifics as to the course materials.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Why should they let go of a past identity?

Because the e-meter tells then so? Because some procedure tells them so?

This is Hubbard's case superimposed over others.

@Veda : Are you saying that Hubbard had an "identity phobia", where he wanted to be rid of these and thus everyone should be rid of them too - is that what you mean by superimposing his case over others?

 

[Panda Termint]

Panda, how many HCOBs were part of the VIII course that were specific to the level itself. I've heard a couple renditions of what is on the level but never really have heard any specifics as to the course materials.

Maybe half a dozen (including the usual suspects KSW#1 and Tech Degrades) if memory serves. The History Of Man Chapter on Time Track of Theta, particularly that dealing with Transfers is the main body of indoc. The OTVIII course was updated around the time of GAT but by that time I had no need or desire to do anything further in scientology. I did audit on OTVII Expanded after OTVIII until sometime in 2004, I was gone by 2008. I'm 11 years out now and loving life more with every passing day.

 

[Free to shine]

Gee, let me think. Maybe because their belief in that past identity is most likely delusional? Do delusional beliefs about Self help or hinder in life, I wonder? Remember all those Jesuses, Napoleans, Cleopatras, etc in scientology that we're always laughing about? That.

Question from a non-OT. Where does the first idea about identities come on "the bridge"? In normal life I have never met someone who thinks they are Cleopatra or Napoleon or whatever, yet it is fairly common in scientology. I even had a family member who was convinced they had been Beethoven. It seems that identities becomes a more imortant subject the more you do. So it follows, to me, that Hubbard's views have something to do with that.

 

[Panda Termint]

Question from a non-OT. Where does the first idea about identities come on "the bridge"? In normal life I have never met someone who thinks they are Cleopatra or Napoleon or whatever, yet it is fairly common in scientology. I even had a family member who was convinced they had been Beethoven. It seems that identities becomes a more imortant subject the more you do. So it follows, to me, that Hubbard's views have something to do with that.

It's mentioned often in scientology basics under the subject of valences and addressed as an undesirable state in auditing when someone is seen as being "out of valence" (being someone other than themself). I only used those the extreme examples of Cleopatra and Napoleleon to make a rhetorical point, an identity might be anything/anyone, the point being that it's an identification as something other than self. Read that "neti neti" link I posted above if you don't want to dive into Hubbard on Identities. Yes, I believe that you're right, it does seem to take on more importance as you progress in scientology,. When you consider that most auditing after OTIII is addressing Beings other than oneself, it kind of makes sense. Identity (as a subject) is also specifically addressed in the L12 Rundown, if I remember correctly.

 

[TheSneakster]

I understand that when OT VIII was released in 1988, the EP was given as "Truth Revealed."

"Truth Revealed" was never anything but Marketing Hype. The actual End Phenomena was (and still is in the C of $) Confidential to my best recollection.

Panda? is that correct ? Isn't the actual OT VIII E/P Confidential (in the C of $ ?)

 

[Panda Termint]

"Truth Revealed" was never anything but Marketing Hype. The actual End Phenomena was (and still is in the C of $) Confidential to my best recollection.

Panda? is that correct ? Isn't the actual OT VIII E/P Confidential (in the C of $ ?)

Yes. Everything about New OTVIII is confidential in the CofS. Security of data is paramount. That's just one of the reason why those OTVIII Success Stories are so lame, anyone who has done the Level is very careful about what they say about it. Videos of their onboard Graduation speeches are Qual checked for acceptable levels of enthusiasm and any hint or allusion towards confidential data. Completions know that including the obligatory thank you to RTC and COB will help them get their Success Story approved and help them route out swiftly without having to jump through too many more hoops.

 

[TheSneakster]

Why should they let go of a past identity?

Because the pre-OT is superimposing a past identity - which they are no longer and have not been for ages beyond count (usually) on the Whole Track - upon their present time existence ? Because they haven't layered just one expired previous identity (or entirely invented identity) upon themselves, but many thousands or millions of them ?

If a spirit truly finds itself so burdened, I would imagine having them fix it themselves (through solo auditing) ought to be very salutary.

 

[stratty]

<snip>Let me know if you ever decide that you want to learn something new about OT8, until then, I'll leave you to it.

If we're talking about opinions, then here's mine. OT VIII (or OT anything you like) is a fairy tale devised by Hubbard as a means of extracting money from those poor deluded souls who have yet to peek behind the curtain and see that the whole of the 'advanced levels' was a worthless crock of shit.

By what mechanism people like Terril and others can apparently 'make gains' from running this stuff is utterly beyond me, but if they say they did I'm not going to argue with them, but I'm willing to bet that when it comes down to the nitty-gritty it probably has little to do with the materials involved and more to do with that person's psychological make up.

What on earth is there else to 'learn' about OT VIII other than it's a piece of second-rate science fiction from the pen of a second-rate science fiction writer?

 

[TheSneakster]

Because the e-meter tells then so?

Veda,

Now I'm very curious to know what was your training level whenever you were still a member of the Church of Scientology ?

All of Hubbard's materials I've ever seen about the psycho-meter have been consistent on this one particular point: the psycho-meter tells the auditor that there is a reaction to the auditing question or command and that is all it ever tells the auditor. The meter never tells the auditor what generated that reaction. The pre-clear or pre-OT has to observe the thing that read and learn for themselves what it is and the truth of it for themselves.

So exactly where did you get this notion that the E-Meter tells anybody what is or is not true (if I understood you correctly)?

Mind you, I have no formal certification in Scientology, so I don't claim expertise. I merely have invested a few thousand hours studying Hubbard's materials over the years.

 

[Deleted member 51]

Because the pre-OT is superimposing a past identity - which they are no longer and have not been for ages beyond count (usually) on the Whole Track - upon their present time existence ? Because they haven't layered just one expired previous identity (or entirely invented identity) upon themselves, but many thousands or millions of them ?

If a spirit truly finds itself so burdened, I would imagine having them fix it themselves (through solo auditing) ought to be very salutary.

Of course, to actually live, work and maintain personal relationships and personal concepts of right and wrong, we all need an identity. An identity is basically what we identify (relate, agree, like, prefer) with as individuals. To live without an identity is to blow around like a plant with no roots - tumbleweed. Vacant mind, nobody home, no goals, skills or ambitions and only vague memories of when you had them. Doesn't seem very spiritual to me. Just the opposite, in fact, like turning into a zombie.

Our personal identities might include, for example, family, friends, favorite foods, natural and acquired skills, personal goals and interests, and life experiences and wisdom earned from it, among other things.

It would be very strange to have a personal problem with getting confused about your identity and believing you were someone or something else. How in the world would someone get that confused, unless they've had their identity stripped from them in the first place, or had some sort of mental disorder, and someone else superimposed their own goals over another's after stripping away the personal personality?

Cults strip away a person's identity and fill in the identities with their own priorities to replace what is stolen. Anything offered by COS has that spin to it.

I've cared for people who were delusional or schizophrenic who were definitely confused about their identities. The ones I knew had physical tests that proved they had brain disorders, though, so this wouldn't help them in the least.

 

[Veda]

Lol, and you apparently think that people doing OT8 don't decide for themselves.

-snip-

Those doing OT 8 are financially and heavily psychologically invested in the cult of Scientology. And let's not forget that it is a cult. OT 8 is done on the ship which is a cult within a cult (the Sea Org) within a cult (Scientology).

"People doing OT 8 'think for themselves'." Lol!

IMO, you need a few more years to get your bearings to recover fully from your Scientology experience.

 

[Veda]

Because the pre-OT is superimposing a past identity - which they are no longer and have not been for ages beyond count (usually) on the Whole Track - upon their present time existence ? Because they haven't layered just one expired previous identity (or entirely invented identity) upon themselves, but many thousands or millions of them ?

If a spirit truly finds itself so burdened, I would imagine having them fix it themselves (through solo auditing) ought to be very salutary.

If you're so impressed with the OT levels why haven't you done them?

One of the first things I did after resigning my membership in the organization, a long long time ago, was find a 'pc" and audit him from ARC S/W, to Dianetics, to Lower Grades, to Clearing, and onto the OT levels. I wanted to see what auditing others was like outside the organization, without all the red tape.

This has been covered elsewhere. You can look it up if you want to.

If you're so enamored with Scientology processing, then do it. Get an e-meter, and get some training, find a "pc" and audit.

 

[Type4_PTS]

From what I’m reading in this thread, it sounds as though Scientology can cause people to become delusional, obtaining certainty that they were Jesus, JFK, or some other famous person in a previous life. They might be left in that state for decades, or forever, if they don’t have the additional hundreds of thousands of dollars needed to get through OT VIII to discover that that’s not who they are.

How many would actually start on the “Bridge” if they knew all this up front?

 

[Veda]

From what I’m reading in this thread, it sounds as though Scientology can cause people to become delusional, obtaining certainty that they were Jesus, JFK, or some other famous person in a previous life. They might be left in that state for decades, or forever, if they don’t have the additional hundreds of thousands of dollars needed to get through OT VIII to discover that that’s not who they are.

How many would actually start on the “Bridge” if they knew all this up front?

When I first encountered Scientology, over a period of a few months, I purchased all the books and read them. One of the books was History of Man, originally titled What to Audit. In this book Hubbard presented the idea that a human being was a composite being.

The composite consisted of individual cells, collective cells/protoplasm, synthetic entities, the Genetic Entity, and the theta being. Each of these was considered to have its own time track and, as a composite, a shared time track.

The "I" was the theta being.

Per this way of thinking, a picture contacted during auditing might not be one's own. It was just a picture. It was usually obvious as to whose picture it was.

In many cases, IMO, these pictures were simply imagination. That an e-meter may have responded, IMO, means very little, although the e-meter responding, typically, would impress Scientologists greatly.

While Hubbard gave lip service to warning about over dependence of the e-meter, he, in other writings, assured Scientologists that the unreality of implants would disappear once they saw the e-meter reads and, generally, that their e-meters would tell them.

Scientologists' views changed as the view presented to them by Hubbard changed.

In 1958, the book, Have You Lived Before This Life? was published. It consisted of case histories of sixty two people. It reflected the view presented by Hubbard circa 1958.

When Hubbard's condition worsened dramatically in the mid 1960s, and he invented explanations to account for the worsening, and provided seeming remedies, Scientologists went along.

When Hubbard told them they were engulfed in "Body Thetans" then they were engulfed in "Body Thetans."

On New OT 8, "Hubbard" told them something again, and with their e-meters, which would also "tell them," the Scientologists, as usual, cooperated.

If Hubbard had lived another ten years, he likely would have told them something else, and Scientologists would have gone along with that.

Which returns us to those lines from Hubbard's 'Affirmations' cited on this thread.