Losing my religion - the future of Scientology

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Grats! Donuts in the breakroom.

View attachment 11710

Glorious!

THANK YOU!!!

I have to admit that i really miss those jumbo completion certificates that I can hold overhead for photo ops.

I am honored to receive such a status-laden certificate on this planet. If I am being totally honest, i haven't actually received ANY certs from other planets this lifetime. They are probably just backlogged due to inflationary intergalactic postal rates.

.
 

Barile

Well-known member
Glorious!

THANK YOU!!!

I have to admit that i really miss those jumbo completion certificates that I can hold overhead for photo ops.

I am honored to receive such a status-laden certificate on this planet. If I am being totally honest, i haven't actually received ANY certs from other planets this lifetime. They are probably just backlogged due to inflationary intergalactic postal rates.

.
well, that's just your opinion... man.
 

Xenu Xenu Xenu

Well-known member
I can imagine Hubbard being in a jealous rage that another entity was more successful and popular than he was.
Especially when they were using "his" "tech".

Since these mission holders were not liars and crooks like Hubbard, they automatically were more likable as people I would assume. It is possible that they took on some of Hubbard's personality though considering a lot of them actually knew Hubbard such as Ray Kemp or Rowan Grassi. That part is bad but I doubt they were ever as bad as LRH.

No, there was only room for one rock star and that was Hubbard.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
these mission holders were not liars and crooks like Hubbard
That's a bold assumption. Seeing the documents I can say with some certainty that a few of them were in fact crooks and grifters.
 

Xenu Xenu Xenu

Well-known member
That's a bold assumption. Seeing the documents I can say with some certainty that a few of them were in fact crooks and grifters.
What I mean is they were drinking Hubbard's koolaid. While I never liked any of the mission holders that I met, none of them were in Hubbard's league for criminality, fraud, or abuse and can't be compared to Hubbard. They might have been ordinary jerks or assholes but Hubbard another thing all together.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Well-known member
Especially when they were using "his" "tech".

Since these mission holders were not liars and crooks like Hubbard, they automatically were more likable as people I would assume. It is possible that they took on some of Hubbard's personality though considering a lot of them actually knew Hubbard such as Ray Kemp or Rowan Grassi. That part is bad but I doubt they were ever as bad as LRH.

No, there was only room for one rock star and that was Hubbard.
Ray Kemp used to write for Ivy (the Independents' magazine in the 90s). The US Navy trusted him enough to let him run a branch of their cadets, so he must have had something going for him. He was also an accomplished stage magician.

Pam Kemp was still auditing, the last I heard about her. She liked to tell a story (which I think I may have told before) of how she got started in Scn; she was at a party with Ron Hubbard and he overheard her saying something about how she would like to learn the subject but couldn't afford the courses.

Hubbard handed her a glass of whisky, and said, "Drink this down in one go and you can start". She did drink the whisky, but thought he was joking until she got a call from the org the following Monday asking why she wasn't on course.
 
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Xenu Xenu Xenu

Well-known member
Ray Kemp used to write for Ivy (the Independents' magazine in the 90s). The US Navy trusted him enough to let him run a branch of their cadets, so he must have had something going for him. He was also an accomplished stage magician.

Pam Kemp was still auditing, the last I heard about her.
Hubbard borrowed a few hundred bucks from Ray Kemp. Next time they met Hubbard had already acquired St. Hill and Hubbard still didn't pay him back!!!
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
What I mean is they were drinking Hubbard's koolaid. While I never liked any of the mission holders that I met, none of them were in Hubbard's league for criminality, fraud, or abuse and can't be compared to Hubbard. They might have been ordinary jerks or assholes but Hubbard another thing all together.
They were not in Hubbard's league. But I'm not quite convinced that all of them were true believers drinking Ron's koolaid.
I think most started out as true believers, but my impression is that by the end many stayed it in purely for the money and the power. Similar to many FSMs.

I wasn't around before 1982 (I just worked with a lot of documentation from that time), but I got an impression that being a mission holder back then came with many of the same "perks" like those of a wealthy ED in the 2000s: You are surrounded by staff (mostly poor and struggling, often young) and you end up having both hierarchical control over them and financial control. I think you can imagine where this might go.
 

Xenu Xenu Xenu

Well-known member
They were not in Hubbard's league. But I'm not quite convinced that all of them were true believers drinking Ron's koolaid.
I think most started out as true believers, but my impression is that by the end many stayed it in purely for the money and the power. Similar to many FSMs.

I wasn't around before 1982 (I just worked with a lot of documentation from that time), but I got an impression that being a mission holder back then came with many of the same "perks" like those of a wealthy ED in the 2000s: You are surrounded by staff (mostly poor and struggling, often young) and you end up having both hierarchical control over them and financial control. I think you can imagine where this might go.
I know what you mean but when you have a franchise that is what happens. You become a rock star if you own a franchise. Even way back when I was involved I noticed that in franchises. I don't know if it is really true what you believe that many knew what a fraud it was but even so, by that time they had lost their Missions anyways. A few may have started their own brand of voodoo but most went back to some sort of normal life or as normal as they could get. Rowan Grassi moved out of town and opened an antiques shop. Then of course were the true believers who carried on and even added their own shit to the crap that is Scientology. You know, the crazies.:)

Yes, I saw how easy it was for franchise owners to be loved, admired, and looked up to. More than a few of these people once worked for "Ron". That alone gives them a sort of pedigree, as if they are one of the original "Apostles" of the Messiah Ron. And just like that it would be easy for them to like "the local" cult leader for their area. And just like rock stars, they would have groupies at times as well. Power does that to people. That is reason enough to hate cults alone.

But just to be fair, I saw the same behavior with male auditors at official Orgs and Centers. Auditors were generally looked up to and most male single auditors I saw generally had a rock star attitude in their ways. I also saw these auditors take advantage of their reputation and status. They too acted like mini-cult leaders with that "fearless leader" act of theirs and they too used it to get laid and all that other stuff a small time cult leader might be tempted to do.

Not touch assist
Not contact assist
But narcissist

It's easy to become a narcissist in Scientology
Scientology can help you with that
You could say they have the technology for that
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
But just to be fair, I saw the same behavior with male auditors at official Orgs and Centers. Auditors were generally looked up to and most male single auditors I saw generally had a rock star attitude in their ways. I also saw these auditors take advantage of their reputation and status. They too acted like mini-cult leaders with that "fearless leader" act of theirs and they too used it to get laid and all that other stuff a small time cult leader might be tempted to do.
I know, right? It happened with female auditors in the 80s and 90s as well. Heck, my mom case in point: An attractive divorcee auditor in her late 20s moving between some of the "elite" orgs around the country. You know how that usually ends up.

I do think auditors lost some of their glamor in the 2000s however. The cult's schwerpunkt shifted more strongly from processing to income at the time.

Also auditors had less "organizational" power, so their affairs were on average far less toxic, actualy consensual and less institutionally abusive.

With EDs or wealthy businessmen it was worse. Instead of some consensual no-strings-attached flick, you ended up with these quid-pro-quo arrangements. Some dirt-poor 17 year old Venezuelan on a religious visa arrives, then before you know it the Ed is renting her a place to sleep, employing her after hours in his private business venture, assigns her some nice post at the org... and then he wants us to believe that they just started sleeping with one another entirely by accident with no exchange of favors and money. Yeah right :whistle:
 
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Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
I think one of the biggest mistakes Hubbard made was destroying the mission network. Missionaries were mostly normal people with jobs, families and lives and, as such, had an invaluable "outreach" function for Scn.
He destroyed the Mission Network, and also field auditors, because he wanted it ALL.

With field auditors, they were increasingly squeezed until they stopped auditing.

First was requiring them to get all their C/Sing done at the Org (for lots of money, and their being at lower priority than HGC folders).

Then, any time the Org C/S deemed them to have "flubbed", they were supposed to get crammed at the Org (for $$$ and at lower priority than org people). When my friend's Class VI field auditor was ordered to re-train, he said "screw it", put away his e-meter, and got a regular job.
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
He destroyed the Mission Network, and also field auditors, because he wanted it ALL.

With field auditors, they were increasingly squeezed until they stopped auditing.

First was requiring them to get all their C/Sing done at the Org (for lots of money, and their being at lower priority than HGC folders).

Then, any time the Org C/S deemed them to have "flubbed", they were supposed to get crammed at the Org (for $$$ and at lower priority than org people). When my friend's Class VI field auditor was ordered to re-train, he said "screw it", put away his e-meter, and got a regular job.
Hu666ard was like Stalin.

It was a death sentence to be powerful and close to "source".

Likewise, this mentality seems to be extended out to networks where it was a death sentence to be successful or have autonomy or productivity or power or wealth. You became a target.
 
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Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
With EDs or wealthy businessmen it was worse. Instead of some consensual no-strings-attached flick, you ended up with these quid-pro-quo arrangements. Some dirt-poor 17 year old Venezuelan on a religious visa arrives, then before you know it the Ed is renting her a place to sleep, employing her after hours in his private business venture, assigns her some nice post at the org... and then he wants us to believe that they just started sleeping with one another entirely by accident with no exchange of favors and money. Yeah right
Your assumption regarding "quid-pro-quo" situations is that, by cracking down on them, you are making things better.

In your hypothetical of the Venezuelan girl, you assume that, with quid-pro-quo eliminated, she would get the benefits of being brought here without cost, as opposed to never being brought out of her dirt-poor condition in Venezuela to begin with. People go into these arrangements, because they are an improvement over all available alternatives.

Something like the outrage over "third world sweatshops", which (despite the low wages paid) were still a better deal than trying to survive on subsistence farming. And looking at "third-world sweatshops" the pattern has been that if there are good workers there willing to work cheap, other companies will show up and competition will bid up wages.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
Your assumption regarding "quid-pro-quo" situations is that, by cracking down on them, you are making things better.
I think I can simplify it even further: My assumption was that by participating in Scientology Ethics I was making things better.

There. You proved me stupid. I just made the proof more streamlined and elegant, that's all.


In your hypothetical of the Venezuelan girl, you assume that, with quid-pro-quo eliminated, she would get the benefits of being brought here without cost, as opposed to never being brought out of her dirt-poor condition in Venezuela to begin with.
Speaking more seriously, the cult would have brought her in either way. Its not like these guys ordered a mail -order-bride. The difference would have been that she would have had to work to earn enough cash to make ends meet (which as you know is no small feat at a class V org) and the nice post might have gone to someone with actual experience and skills to handle it.

I'm being cynical, I know. Trying to improve the cult is like trying to make a Ford escort look good. Wash and polish it as you might, it's still a turd.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Speaking more seriously, the cult would have brought her in either way. Its not like these guys ordered a mail -order-bride. The difference would have been that she would have had to work to earn enough cash to make ends meet (which as you know is no small feat at a class V org) and the nice post might have gone to someone with actual experience and skills to handle it.
Plus if she's here on a religious visa, she's not legally allowed to work a regular job. The Church would have to provide for her living expenses (and we know how that would go). I'm sure he would prefer an "arrangement" over having to survive on staff pay, in worse poverty than she left.
 

Xenu Xenu Xenu

Well-known member
Hu666ard was like Stalin.

In what a death sentence to be powerful and close to "source".

Likewise, this mentality seems to be extended out to networks where it was a death sentence to be successful or have autonomy or productivity or power or wealth. You became a target.
Stalin required all citizens to snitch if they saw anyone displaying non-loyal attitudes or actions. Hubbard required Scientologists to write Knowledge Reports.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
Plus if she's here on a religious visa, she's not legally allowed to work a regular job.
"Oh no, I'm gonna stop moonlighting because I'm on a religious visa!"..




...said no one ever. :moodswing:

I'm sure he would prefer an "arrangement" over having to survive on staff pay, in worse poverty than she left.
I'm sure both parties got something out of it. But remember, I wasn't there to make people happy. I was to stand for justice and honesty and a world without war, crime and insanity.

Yeah... I think we should stop talking about my lack of wisdom.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
"Oh no, I'm gonna stop moonlighting because I'm on a religious visa!"..
...said no one ever.
My point regarding "quid-pro-quo" is that at least it's fairly legal, unlike visa violations.

Then again, I'm going to assume that staff members working in violation of visa, in order to survive well enough to be staff, would not get hit by Ethics.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
My point regarding "quid-pro-quo" is that at least it's fairly legal, unlike visa violations.
Well, if you end up in continental management, that means you have already taken all your concern for wog laws, your doubts, fears, moral compass, conscience and critical thinking and you locked it all in a small box and sent it to some other sector of the galaxy.

The sublime and the ridiculous are very closely related. Certainty itself is not the greatest peril in the cult, the greatest peril is the certainty that what you are doing is an expression of justice.

Then again, I'm going to assume that staff members working in violation of visa, in order to survive well enough to be staff, would not get hit by Ethics.
Not unless you got caught or was doing something blatant and likely to draw attention. Most volunteers, if they worked, worked for scientologist-owned companies where the owner would cover up for them if needed (oh and Gods help him if he would decline to cover up for them in front of the authorities!)
 
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