False flag operations and fake personas

Karakorum

Well-known member
This not even remotely the first rodeo for most of the members here. Tory "Magoo" Christman briefed the ex-Co$ community on the OSA INT Internet Investigations Unit two decades ago. Nothing in your post is new information.
I'm a bit puzzled by the purpose of this statement... is that a suggestion that I should not have posted the thread because others in the past also talked about this topic?
If so, I would vehemently disagree, because by this coin 99% of threads here were already discussed in one form or another at some other exer forum/site/book.

I've never claimed the status of "sole source" btw :cool:

As for the OSA strategies themselves not being original - they are not and they borrow heavily from all sorts of places including stasi and other communist agencies.
I've talked to some old anti-commie dissidents here who were active in the 1980s and they told me that these things were used by local security services. Especially the "while elephant herder" persona. Back in the day samizdat was one of the main propaganda tools, but this relied on print machines and paper which were both in short supply. The security service undercover agents would try to steer the dissident movements to print books orbrochures which were deemed dated or harmless by the regime, as opposed to printing real hot stuff.

He has disclosed much about OSA's thuggish activity, more than anyone else has ever disclosed.

What is it specifically that you believe he has 'publicly denied' and how do you know about it (assuming there is a specific) in the first place?

Would you have preferred it if he had crept off into a corner somewhere and said and done nothing at all as he attempted to build a life after he escaped the cult?
He disclosed some things. But I'm still waiting to see something about heavy-duty OSA coverups. Things like pedophilia, or rape, or things related to Travolta and Cruise etc.
I have not seen any of this during my time inside, but other people who I trust (Aaron Smith Levin for example) confirmed that pedophilia cases existed and were covered up.
So, if we continentals didn't get these cases (never even got to see files) and I now know they existed that means there must have been some other higher-level team tasked with resolving them. I see no other explanation, other than that it was some int-level OSA tiger team. And the person such a team would report to would be Mike.

Again: This is my speculation based on what I know about the way they function. I was never at int level. If anyone here has a better theory where the heavy out-PR cases landed (or knows for certain), please speak up. For now I can only assume it was an int OSA team.
 
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Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
I have not seen any of this during my time inside, but other people who I trust (Aaron Smith Levin for example) confirmed that pedophilia cases existed and were covered up.
I know of at least one pedophile case, involving the 10 year old daughter of an org staff member by another staff member. He was quietly kicked out. I'm pretty sure it was handled by OSA.

Relationships with girls who were merely underage (15 and up) were common and accepted in the org.
 

Karakorum

Well-known member
I know of at least one pedophile case, involving the 10 year old daughter of an org staff member by another staff member. He was quietly kicked out. I'm pretty sure it was handled by OSA.

Relationships with girls who were merely underage (15 and up) were common and accepted in the org.
Yeah cases like some older guy being out-2D with a 17 year old subordinate - we would get and handle these cases. But cases of actual pedophilia - nope, we never got them. Back in the day I naively assumed these either would not happen, or happen very rarely like once every 2 decades or something.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Yeah cases like some older guy being out-2D with a 17 year old subordinate - we would get and handle these cases. But cases of actual pedophilia - nope, we never got them. Back in the day I naively assumed these either would not happen, or happen very rarely like once every 2 decades or something.
My experience is that anything which had the potential for "scandal" (actual crimes like child molestation, rape, murder) were handled by GO/OSA. If it was something that WOULD involve the police if it got out, then it went automatically to OSA, who would do their damnedest to make sure the org was not deemed to be involved, suppressing all info if possible.

Another example: HAS NYFdn Mark Harrison murders Scientologist celebrity
(Mark was a con-man who made his living by, among other things, passing bad checks. He came into Scn, joined staff, was made HAS, and started 2D with Judy Heiss, a part-time TV actress. Police caught up to him, he went to Judy's apartment, she confronted him about his criminal activities, and he strangled her. GO worked overtime to make sure Scientology connection never made it into the press, including lying to Scientologists that he had been caught, so that people would not go to the police to give information to help catch him. That resulted in him staying loose for a further five years)

 
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Chuck J.

Election Fraud Has Consequences
Yeah cases like some older guy being out-2D with a 17 year old subordinate - we would get and handle these cases. But cases of actual pedophilia - nope, we never got them. Back in the day I naively assumed these either would not happen, or happen very rarely like once every 2 decades or something.
I saw some paper on what may have been the case Enthetan is referring to. Was in the back of a file cabinet drawer that I had been given to use in the INCOMM courseroom. Was cleaning it out and, viola! "What's this?" I had finished reading 3/4 of it before I realized I maybe shouldn't be reading it. Or maybe it was another different case. IDK.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
I saw some paper on what may have been the case Enthetan is referring to. Was in the back of a file cabinet drawer that I had been given to use in the INCOMM courseroom. Was cleaning it out and, viola! "What's this?" I had finished reading 3/4 of it before I realized I maybe shouldn't be reading it. Or maybe it was another different case. IDK.
You remember any details?
 

Chuck J.

Election Fraud Has Consequences
You remember any details?
Not many. Either ASHO or AOLA staff member, male. No intercourse, but was apparently having his daughter fondle his genitals. I don't know if any fellatio was involved. At the time I read it it (mid 1984) was over a year old according to the date on the paper. No idea of the outcome.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Not many. Either ASHO or AOLA staff member, male. No intercourse, but was apparently having his daughter fondle his genitals. I don't know if any fellatio was involved. At the time I read it it (mid 1984) was over a year old according to the date on the paper. No idea of the outcome.
You happen to know if the file looked like an HCO/Ethics file, or a GO file?
 

Chuck J.

Election Fraud Has Consequences
You happen to know if the file looked like an HCO/Ethics file, or a GO file?
It was a different color paper than normal. But, I don't remember what color :blink: Might, maybe have been GO ??
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Mark was a con-man who made his living by, among other things, passing bad checks. He came into Scn, joined staff, was made HAS, and started 2D with Judy Heiss, a part-time TV actress. Police caught up to him, he went to Judy's apartment, she confronted him about his criminal activities, and he strangled her
.

Fascinating how the top of the command channel recruits and populates the highest level ETHICS POSTS, even above the "Ethics Officer" with people deemed the most ethical---who are in fact con men, crooks, criminals and in some cases like this, murderers.

In case anyone is not familiar, "HAS" stands for HCO Area Secretary, the senior executive that is senior to all staff members in the org, presiding over the "DEPT OF PERSONNEL" (the hiring/management of all staff) and the "DEPT OF INSPECTIONS & REPORTS" (the department that boasts the MAA, Ethics Officer and other positions that ensure that staff members act ethically.
It's no coincidence that the biggest criminals rise to the highest level posts. To wit, L. Ron Hubbard, David Miscavige, Marty Rathbun, et al.

Some folks end up confused about the multi-layered, multi-faceted criminal lie machine called Scientology. But, in reality, it's quite simple. It's organized crime and the most dominating criminals run it.

Sorry to cut this short, I have to go! Ron just called an ALL HANDS ON DECK muster because he has a big treat for us to watch. Not only is he going to have a frail elderly woman who can't swim thrown off the ship where she will suffer broken bones and nearly die by drowning---he has a special bonus surprise since we've all been upstat. Ron wants to also let us enjoy watching him have a 3 year old child brutally imprisoned in a dark/dangerous chain locker where he will cry hysterically for days.

Ron needs to do these things---because our slave planet is so out-ethics that he is literally forced to use stiff ethics gradients in order to save people. It's incredible, how Ron sacrifices his personal time in order to salvage old women and children--such is his love for all humanity.

.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Fascinating how the top of the command channel recruits and populates the highest level ETHICS POSTS, even above the "Ethics Officer" with people deemed the most ethical---who are in fact con men, crooks, criminals and in some cases like this, murderers.
The quality most prized in an executive, more than any other thing, was obedience. Could senior management be confident that this person would follow orders? Even (or especially) if the orders were horrible?
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation.
He disclosed some things. But I'm still waiting to see something about heavy-duty OSA coverups. Things like pedophilia, or rape, or things related to Travolta and Cruise etc.
I have not seen any of this during my time inside, but other people who I trust (Aaron Smith Levin for example) confirmed that pedophilia cases existed and were covered up.
So, if we continentals didn't get these cases (never even got to see files) and I now know they existed that means there must have been some other higher-level team tasked with resolving them. I see no other explanation, other than that it was some int-level OSA tiger team. And the person such a team would report to would be Mike.

Again: This is my speculation based on what I know about the way they function. I was never at int level. If anyone here has a better theory where the heavy out-PR cases landed (or knows for certain), please speak up. For now I can only assume it was an int OSA team.
I don't believe that trying to make Mike a part of the 'enemy' is the way to go ... at all. I didn't believe it was very clever when it was being done to Marty Rathbun either but it happened and the result is there for all to see.

If he has chosen not to disclose certain things he will have good reason for that and that is his business not ours.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
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I told you I was trouble said:
He has disclosed much about OSA's thuggish activity, more than anyone else has ever disclosed. What is it specifically that you believe he has 'publicly denied' and how do you know about it (assuming there is a specific) in the first place?.
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karakorum answered:
(--snipped)
He disclosed some things. But I'm still waiting to see something about heavy-duty OSA coverups. Things like pedophilia, or rape, or things related to Travolta and Cruise etc.

This is my speculation based on what I know about the way they function. I was never at int level. If anyone here has a better theory where the heavy out-PR cases landed (or knows for certain), please speak up. For now I can only assume it was an int OSA team.

posted by HH (blue):

Let's break that down, since you have quite a continuing crusade to trash Mike Rinder, despite no evidence of any kind.

"But, I'm still waiting to see something about heavy-duty OSA coverups. Things like pedophilia or rape. . . "
You have zero facts yet you continue targeting Mike Rinder, one of the most outspoken and successful whistleblowers in the cult's 70 year history. How is that different again from Alanzo's, Rathbun's and OSA's hate sites?

"This is my speculation. . ."
Speculation is, at best, worthless. And at worst it is nothing more than vicious innuendo, character assassination, "dead-agenting" and "black pr". ESMB is not a Com Ev or an "Investigation" instrument. You have mentioned many dozens of times how amazing you are at "investigations". You have often recounted your glorious staff days where you successfully investigated so many Scientologists! If that is true, go do your brilliant investigating and if you ever find anything post some facts rather than unfounded, relentless and nasty innuendo targeting Mike Rinder.

"If anyone has a better theory. . ."
Nobody besides you gives a shit about "theories". Ex-Scientologists have already had an ocean of "theories" slammed down their throats during their time with Hubbard & Miscavige. Go set up a "theory thread" and see how many people are interested.

"I can only assume. . . "
Yeah, I thought so. Let us know if you ever accidentally stumble over a fact.

PERSONAL MESSAGE: Hey karakorum, you are chronically "investigating" others. You investigated me and quickly published your findings that i am an evil troll trying to harm others on ESMB. Thus you are not reading this because you disconnected ("ignore button") from the wicked SP HelluvaHoax! LOL.

Then your investigations discovered that Leah Remini is no good either and she is harming Scientologists and Scientology staff by not doing her whistleblowing the way you demand. Then you investigated Mike Rinder and determined that there are very very bad things he is withholding. He's no good either.

You keep demanding others (e.g. Mike R.) disclose their crimes. Are you not aware what a joke that makes you look like? Virtually everyone on this message board has been laughing for over a decade about the cult's #1 moronic handling of "bad people", by imperiously demanding of them:
"WHAT ARE YOUR CRIMES?!" Now you are running that on Rinder as if nobody here knows where that stupid SP shattering tech came from.

Here's a great idea for you. WHY DON'T YOU LEAD BY EXAMPLE? Why don't you do a full and complete O/W writeup and detail time/place/form/event for all your crimes, overts and harmful acts. You love running the process on others, so run it on yourself and then you can happily share all your wins.

If you don't have any facts or evidence on Mike Rinder, stop stalking him and STFU. If you are compulsively needing to "investigate" someone, investigate yourself.


.

I am .
 
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ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
If he has chosen not to disclose certain things he will have good reason for that and that is his business not ours.
Someone who was an aide to LRH and traveled with him from time to time
told one of my friends that after he left the SO, he suffered from a severe case
of PTSD, similar to what soldiers from the front experience. Seems like for
him working close to LRH was not therapeutic to say the least.

John Atack commented in a recent video interview about Mike Rinder
having harassed him back in the day: "He . . . cannot remember what he did
to me." "There must be a whole area of his life that has just closed down."
"He's certainly not the only one [who cannot remember past events]."

I'm not meaning to make a jab at Mike, but only pointing out the possibility
that a lot of the higher ups who leave after being in service for decades have
legitimate "blank spots" or missing memories about many things.

People who have fought in actual shooting wars generally have blank spots or
missing memories, especially as they age.

Good god, I have blank spots -- incorrect recalls or complete loss of information
about large swathes of my life. Life and memories are imperfect, I've discovered.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Someone who was an aide to LRH and traveled with him from time to time
told one of my friends that after he left the SO, he suffered from a severe case
of PTSD, similar to what soldiers from the front experience. Seems like for
him working close to LRH was not therapeutic to say the least.

John Atack commented in a recent video interview about Mike Rinder
having harassed him back in the day: "He . . . cannot remember what he did
to me." "There must be a whole area of his life that has just closed down."
"He's certainly not the only one [who cannot remember past events]."

I'm not meaning to make a jab at Mike, but only pointing out the possibility
that a lot of the higher ups who leave after being in service for decades have
legitimate "blank spots" or missing memories about many things.

People who have fought in actual shooting wars generally have blank spots or
missing memories, especially as they age.

Good god, I have blank spots -- incorrect recalls or complete loss of information
about large swathes of my life. Life and memories are imperfect, I've discovered.

Good post.

For anyone who didn't "serve" in the Salvation Navy, I'll just remind everyone that not only
were Sea Org members TERRORIZED they were also PSYCHOLOGICALLY MOLESTED with
deranged processes, conditions formulas, punishments, and other forms of mental torture. In
addition to that they were often physically compromised, undernourished, ill and/or sleep-deprived!

They were also assigned impossible tasks and blamed, shamed and humiliated for not "making
it go right", even though no human alive [including Hubbard & Miscavige] could have performed
that task either. When failing to do the impossible, they were degraded and forced to
find their evil purposes and crimes because they were "purposely sabotaging" the
road to salvation for all beings in the universe.

There were hundreds of methods of torture and deprivation.

It can easily turn one into a walking zombie.

I remember leaving the SO and making the long journey home to my parent's house. That
night I slept perhaps 12-14 hours of deep, deep, deep, deep sleep. I woke up and felt
astonishingly great for the first time in YEARS! It was like the scene in the Wizard Oz where
the dreary black and white footage begins to fill with color until it Dorothy has arrived
in full Technicolor at the Land of Oz!

Exhaustion plays crazy tricks with the mind. It would not surprise me at all if a chronically
sleep-deprived, malnourished, terrorized SO member did not recall all of the details
of their activities. I can remember times when I was sleep deprived (long after SO, which I left
as a very young man) when I was traveling or even driving cross-country and I began to
see things--and then realized that I was starting to HALLUCINATE because i was half
unconscious from not sleeping for a ridiculous amount of time.

If exhaustion can produce hallucinations (which it's clinically proven to do) then loss
of memory is no big deal.

What I find offensive about "investigations" targeting wonderfully successful whistleblowers
is that the "investigator" is doing what Scientology did to them. To wit, holding them up
to an IMPOSSIBLY PURE & PERFECT IDEAL, and then viciously castigating them for
every nano human imperfection. The problem the investigator never suspects is that
by announcing all these IDEAL PERFECT QUALITIES, they are very likely to suggest
to others that they (the investigator) likewise be compared to that sacred, saintly state.

That's Scientology in a nutshell. "IDEAL SCENES" and "IDEAL BEINGS" are theories
and speculations written about as if they are fact. Then everyone in sight is shamed
and terrorized into paying the price to become Ideal. It's a hideously hypocritical hoax!



NOT YET IDEAL SCIENTOLOGIST
Hey Ron, I did what you said. I boomed
all the orgs on earth and cleared the planet!
Can I get that day off you promised?

THE IDEAL BEING RON
No. I can't in good conscience reward a downstat. You know god-damned
well you screwed me over and sabotaged my tech, because I specifically
ordered you to Clear the Planet and Salvage This Sector!
Go clay demo my tech on "half-dones" and get
your sorry out-exchange, downstat DB
ass back on post!

.


.
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation.
Someone who was an aide to LRH and traveled with him from time to time
told one of my friends that after he left the SO, he suffered from a severe case
of PTSD, similar to what soldiers from the front experience. Seems like for
him working close to LRH was not therapeutic to say the least.

John Atack commented in a recent video interview about Mike Rinder
having harassed him back in the day: "He . . . cannot remember what he did
to me." "There must be a whole area of his life that has just closed down."
"He's certainly not the only one [who cannot remember past events]."

I'm not meaning to make a jab at Mike, but only pointing out the possibility
that a lot of the higher ups who leave after being in service for decades have
legitimate "blank spots" or missing memories about many things.

People who have fought in actual shooting wars generally have blank spots or
missing memories, especially as they age.

Good god, I have blank spots -- incorrect recalls or complete loss of information
about large swathes of my life. Life and memories are imperfect, I've discovered.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense and added to the whole thing is the fact that he didn't even choose to be a scientologist ... his parents chose it for him when he was a young child and they joined the cult. Then, many decades later when he finally left he lost every member of his family instantly. I've met some of them and he's much better off without them ... but I doubt he feels that way and it has to do something to you deep inside when you have to live with that kind of rejection for no fault of your own.

I will remain grateful for whatever our whistle-blowers choose to give us.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Yes, that makes a lot of sense and added to the whole thing is the fact that he didn't even choose to be a scientologist ... his parents chose it for him when he was a young child and they joined the cult. Then, many decades later when he finally left he lost every member of his family instantly. I've met some of them and he's much better off without them ... but I doubt he feels that way and it has to do something to you deep inside when you have to live with that kind of rejection for no fault of your own.

I will remain grateful for whatever our whistle-blowers choose to give us.
.


I loved that post. Thanks for such a graciously kind & generous reading of a child overwhelmed and victimized by a deranged and very dangerous cult.

Like you said, that's all he knew his whole life, yet he courageously still managed to escape and create a great new life! To this day they and their thug operatives still stalk and try to destroy him. I have nothing but praise and love the the guy!










.





ps: But, wait! What about our ongoing investigation into Rinder? I still have a notion about a perception of a feeling that he might be very close to breaking and admitting his horrendous crimes. I can only assume based on a theory of a speculation that Rinder is about to confess. And I have hard facts to back this up and support it! Two days ago I saw Rinder shopping at Whole Foods and so i used my walkie-talkie to signal one of the PI's to close in and see what he is buying and get it photographically documented. It turned out to be the BOMBSHELL our investigation has been hoping for the past decade!


This proves that he is withholding huge crimes!

Everyone knows that the primary supplement to combat ANXIETY is B5. And Rinder is not only buying it---he is self-medicating with in mega-dosages of 1000mg capsules! By this we can logically conclude that all the pressure of hiding his crimes is weighing down so heavily now that he is literally falling apart. Crumbling from the anxiety! Clinical studies have proven that feelings of guilt and remorse are a major factor in causing anxiety.

Obviously this is no time to abandon our investigation. He is breaking, I could totally perceive that when i saw him acting in a confused state of mind, because he put that brand down and picked up another brand to read the label. Trying to block crimes from his mind is causing him to feel forgetful and confused.


This is no time to abandon our investigation, he's got crimes and he's about to confess. I'd say within 2 weeks he will shatter and then we can move forward to get subpoenas and search warrants. I already have a trained cadaver dog so when we tear apart Rinder's basement we'll discover very quickly where he buried the bodies.

.
 
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Chuck J.

Election Fraud Has Consequences
Someone who was an aide to LRH and traveled with him from time to time
told one of my friends that after he left the SO, he suffered from a severe case
of PTSD, similar to what soldiers from the front experience. Seems like for
him working close to LRH was not therapeutic to say the least.

John Atack commented in a recent video interview about Mike Rinder
having harassed him back in the day: "He . . . cannot remember what he did
to me." "There must be a whole area of his life that has just closed down."
"He's certainly not the only one [who cannot remember past events]."

I'm not meaning to make a jab at Mike, but only pointing out the possibility
that a lot of the higher ups who leave after being in service for decades have
legitimate "blank spots" or missing memories about many things.


People who have fought in actual shooting wars generally have blank spots or
missing memories, especially as they age.

Good god, I have blank spots -- incorrect recalls or complete loss of information
about large swathes of my life. Life and memories are imperfect, I've discovered.
Probably aides them in living with themselves.
 

Karakorum

Well-known member
Not many. Either ASHO or AOLA staff member, male. No intercourse, but was apparently having his daughter fondle his genitals. I don't know if any fellatio was involved. At the time I read it it (mid 1984) was over a year old according to the date on the paper. No idea of the outcome.
Wow, PAC had stuff like that lying around in generally accessible areas back in 1984? :blink: I guess stuff has really changed since. If one of us did anything like that in the 2000s, we'd get our hands chopped off probably.

I don't believe that trying to make Mike a part of the 'enemy' is the way to go ... at all. I didn't believe it was very clever when it was being done to Marty Rathbun either but it happened and the result is there for all to see.

If he has chosen not to disclose certain things he will have good reason for that and that is his business not ours.
I am not trying to make Mike an enemy. But I am openly being somewhat suspicious of him because it seems he is not being very transparent about his activities in OSA. I think everyone who spent enough time in SO did some bad things she/he regrets and would rather forget. I entirely understand that part and the fact that there might be some very personal things in his past that he doesn't want to share.

But Mike was head of OSA and he must have known about the major black hat ops they made and all the other anti-dissident operations that do not involve anything very intimate or personal to Mike. It almost seems as he is more willing to talk about his personal struggles with his former family than he is willing to talk about big OSA ops.

I guess it would not bother me that much if Mike was not such a prominent, leader figure in the ex community. Given the position he has, I think we could expect a bit more transparency from Mike as well as insight into OSA activity and "good tips" on how to avoid OSA traps and protect ourselves from OSA infiltrators etc. At this point I feel like Tory told us more about OSA tactics than Mike did. And she was just a volunteer.

I guess the metaphor I would like to use is: "I'm glad that Mike jumped onto the same bus with us, but I am not fond of seeing him in the driver's seat".
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
--snipped--
I guess the metaphor I would like to use is: "I'm glad that Mike jumped onto the same bus with us, but I am not fond of seeing him in the driver's seat".
.

HELPFUL TIPS:

1. Mike Rinder did not metaphorically jump onto "the same bus with us". There is no "bus", there is no "driver" and there is no "us". There are, however, individuals who each have their own views and their own life choices.

2. Why should anyone care who you are "fond of seeing" in the driver's seat of a non-existent bus?

3. If you are great enough to run a non-stop criticism crusade against one of the most successful whistleblowers in the cult's ignominious 70 year history, then you must be great enough to "drive the bus" and show how it is supposed to be done. But you do nothing but spectate and criticize and expect people to believe this makes you an expert.

4. You likewise severely criticized Leah Remini, arguably the most viewed and therefore successful cult whistleblower of all time. You bizarrely claimed that she is harming Scientologists and victimizing Scientology staff members by her whistleblowing. Ludicrous gaslighting. Nice try.

5. However, by you doing less than 0.0000000000000001% of what Mike & Leah have successfully accomplished, all your boasting about knowing how to properly do whistleblowing is hollow and not of any actual value to anyone.

WHERE IS YOUR IDEAL WHISTLEBLOWING PROWESS EVIDENCED? Do tell.

Why don't you avail yourself of the same generous
challenge traditionally offered to Scientology OTs?

DO SOMETHING! DEMONSTRATE YOUR POWERS!
LET'S SEE YOUR SPECIAL WHISTLEBLOWING ABILITIES!
LEAD BY EXAMPLE--SHOW MIKE AND LEAH HOW IT'S DONE!


(cue cricket sound track)



.
 
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