Auditing effectiveness...Does it really work?

[Dotey OT]

Dex,

I'm going to jump in for a reason. Originally I felt that it was possible you had joined the group for a reason of procuring potential clients. I considered it to be a possibility in what you said earlier in this thread. Since then, others have brought up interesting points about therapy, things that I haven't looked a without a discerning eye, since having a blind spot due to indoctrination by the cult. That you want to help people is admirable.

I've had a short experience of being on this board. I have seen people come for purposes other than the stated purposes for the board. I felt I should bring this up to you, especially since you were possibly sending another into the cult.

Some of us don't think it's a good idea to send someone to the cult.

Some here have horrible stories, this is no small wrongness having been endured by people here.

You see how there could be an abundance of caution and concern exercised here?

 

[Veda]

Excerpts from just one page:

What a load of horseshit... And that tells me all I need to know about you.

...it only demonstrates your whiney, pathetic attitude. At least I'm genuine; you haven't even got the balls to go by your actual names... Step into the light, go by your own name and talk about whatever it is you're doing in your life, then maybe you won't be out of your depth in trying to slur me.

...somewhat disappointed with the juvenile attempts to discredit me. And "being genuine" while not disclosing your identity are mutually exclusive. Be real.

...to turn others against me...

Hogwash. You're in no position to judge my temperament, obviously. As opposed to all my participants, who would beg to differ with you in the strongest terms. One would think that after all these years of playing the same game, you would outgrow seizing on the opportunity to pronounce someone guilty of responding appropriately to being run through the gauntlet by the peanut gallery. But then, "Veda", and the end of the day, while you assume an air of "being above it all", unfortunately, you are what you are.

In your interaction with others here, you have shown yourself as being easily provoked and much too easily offended.

The good news is that you can change your behavior.

 

[mimsey borogrove]

Hi!

I am new here and need some information regarding dianetics…. snip

3. Do they start with self-analysis before starting the actual auditing sessions? How long do the self-analysis sessions last?

snip

Thanks & regards!
MAQ

I will tell you what to do - go buy the book self analysis and run it on yourself. I have audited this on PCs to good results. A really dispersed person calmed down appreciably and got motivated in her life. Give it a try - it is easy to do - you read the question, think of an answer, then an earlier one etc. Easy peasy and it won't cost you the farm.

As for the rest of it, I think you would be better off staying away from the scientology organizations. They are toxic to say the least.

Hubbard's motivation for this book was to give a person wins so he would continue onward with scientology. It is the bait in the rat trap. It is cleverly crafted to give a person wins. If you walk in the door of a scientology org after getting wins from this book, be advised you do so at your own peril. They are expert at extracting money from any that cross the threshold of their doors.

The horror stories of them getting the person to extend their credit with credit cards that the registers aid / coerce them to get, sometimes registers going so far as to get cards without their knowledge, and maxing them out are legend.

There are more ex-scientologists than scientologists for a very good reason. They got seriously burned. Here's some examples:

Paging Graham Berry: Another Scientology horror story of credit fraud targeting retirees | The Underground Bunker

tonyortega.org

Graham Berry does it again: More Scientology financial fraud spelled out in legal demand | The Underground Bunker

tonyortega.org

Scientology deception and financial fraud spelled out in incredible legal letter | The Underground Bunker

tonyortega.org

Best of luck,

Mimsey

 

[Churchill]

Dexter,
I remember you and your older sister from NYO circa ‘68 -‘69.
You were what, 15 or 16 years old?
What happened to Janet?
(She had a cute lisp IIRC.)
So here you are, 50 years later, and if you, or anyone believe that your Scientology training qualifies you in any way as a mental health, or spiritual practitioner, you are sadly mistaken, IMO. It doesn’t make you a bad person. Deluded? Yeah, probably, but we all were.
Oh, and one more thing. If you don’t understand that very many former Scientologists, out of an abundance of caution, wish to remain anonymous, you obviously lack the requisite empathy to counsel them.
Just sayin’

 

[PirateAndBum]

Tough crowd. It's been a tough crowd on ESMB for quite a few years. I know most here have no respect or use for any "tech" that has any whiff of a relationship to scientology. I don't fall so far to the right on the tolerance spectrum.

There are many alternative practices that people try. I'm sure a lot of you would can BS on many such practices as well. I might too, depending on what they are. I do know that psychologists are not all equally talented in their abilities. They do have to meet certain requirements, but that is no guarantee that they can help a person. It is also very true that some people's mental health issues require psychiatric medical treatment and are not amenable to "talk" therapies. In such cases one would hope that a practitioner would send them to a doctor. This is where practices such a scientology are dangerous (Lisa McPherson and many others that did not get proper care) because their beliefs preclude sending a person to get medical mental heath care.

I think there can be value in practices such as Kn, Idenics, TROM and even grade processes. I was not unhappy with the auditing I paid for in scientology. I guess I was lucky. I never had to write a success story against my will. I may have been deluded as to achieving the "grade EPs" but at the time I was a happy camper. I do recall the L's D of P wanting me to attest to L12 and I refused. But the handling was to do more L12 until I was satisfied.

I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind on "tech". That's fine. I remember a long back and forth with Bill on the Idenics thread years ago.

I do agree that this is not a place to hang out a shingle and try to attract clients. Realize that the indy field is going to be a possible way stop on the way out of the cult for some. It was for me for a while, until I finally realized that scientology's "bridge" was merely a pier.

A discussion of "tech" stuff is fine. If you don't like it don't read the threads. If you want to rebut, go ahead. I'd just ask that you try to keep the ad hom down to a dull roar and not start blazing infernos. In the end agreeing to disagree is probably the best that can be expected.

Dex, let me ask you: If a person came to you that was clearly psychotic, say a hallucinating paranoid schizophrenic. What would you do? Would you send them to a psychiatrist? How about someone that was bipolar? And therein lies the rub, would you be able to determine that? Have you ever had a client that was "nuts"? How did you deal with that?

 

[Veda]

Tough crowd. It's been a tough crowd on ESMB for quite a few years. I know most here have no respect or use for any "tech" that has any whiff of a relationship to scientology.

-snip-

Just for the record, I'm not one of those and, I think, at least some here share my view that the "tech" is not all bad.

My problem with Dexter is his manner of interaction with others here when he is challenged.

 

[Glenda]

I am going to quietly wade in here. Real name: Glenda.

People speak of academic qualifications and certificates on the wall. That is only one part of professional therapy. The other part is possibly, imo, more important. Supervision of the therapy, the therapist and monitoring codes of conduct. The coal-face of healthy therapy can be full of tears and rising fears and snot and inspection of some pretty grizzly stuff. Of course there is the pretty happy-clappy light-weight version of therapy which doesn’t go very deep and that is fine too. I can only speak from what I, gratefully, experienced.

Some realities: testimonials only go so far. No one advertises their bad feedback. The one where inappropriate touching might have allegedly happened or where the client was (emotionally, psychologically) swamped by the therapist during a particularly vulnerable period. Or where a highly inappropriate boundary is violated, let's say flirting enters the therapy. This is a short list of the things that can go wrong during therapy. I didn’t want to know the happy success stories of former clients, I wanted to know I was in good hands as I spilt my guts all over an office floor and tried to make sense of things. I wanted the therapist to build a safe place for me to explore my pain. This is intimate stuff so the person offering their services needed to have their shit together. I needed to have real trust to do some deep work.

Healthy therapy has back-up. A safe place for both the therapist and the client to go if things go a little, or a lot, pear-shaped. One of the things I have always asked when I have begun therapy with someone new is "who is supervising your work please?" It protected both of us. That supervision must be secure under strict codes of conduct for privacy reasons. I have had these discussions with therapists. I speak not from a hole in my left foot. The other factor is I liked knowing the therapist had a safe place to go if they needed support. Listening to people's darkest secrets and fears can impact another human, trained or not. The more training and years of experience does tend to keep the therapist in a stronger position but not always. My first therapist was still going for her professional certification. She was incredibly careful and alert. The safety of both therapist and client is imperative imo. It helps provide a safe place where trust can be genuinely built, without agendas. This is not provided by testimonials of former clients but by a robust transparent structure supporting the therapist – and client.

Professional bodies/associations: This is beyond academic qualifications and certificates hanging on walls. This is the car that has been test-run on the road, is reliable and can deal with the tight corners type thing. It is not enough for testimonials, self-promotion and word-of-mouth to be the deciding factors about who you let inside your head and your heart. Things can get very triggered when working with trauma and other mental health issues. There has to be support in the background for the therapist to brainstorm and get a different perspective on things. Even good life-coaches belong to professional associations to give the best possible support to clients - and themselves. Ego should not come into play when a healthy therapeutic relationship is sought.

Note: I am not trying to be right – or righteous – with the above. I am writing it so that anyone who may be considering entering therapy potentially has something to reflect upon. Trust is vital to heal wounds, etc. If the structure behind a therapist is not transparent, without agenda, without healthy support for both therapist and client, then there are way more risks.

What’s my view of people taking scientology methods and bending them around a bit, then setting up shop? I have had some excellent psychological based therapy and the two methods are not in the same league. I am fully aware that some psych based therapy can be total bullshit but my experience was supportive of my spiritual, emotional and psychological needs. Having worked with professional therapists I would never consult a therapist without the structures in place that I mention above. Internal monitoring (such as scientology uses) of therapy is fraught with potential danger. Only external monitoring can, in the long run, provide robust safety for all involved. Imo and experience.

 

[kaiser]

Auditing effectiveness: does it really work?

Let's see, when I was doing Dianetics and I started coming up with / making up "past life" images, the auditor told me: Let's focus on this life. That was my first disappointment. I was like "whaat?", I thought I am going to explore terra incognita, forbidden paths and mysteries of human life.

When I did Scientology grades and went through the whole notion of answering endless repeated commands, all I had to do what at some point star smiling and saying I feel good, and I feel like this and like that, and sort of like you know, enlightened and free.... I was done! The grade was finished. My first impression after my first grade completion was: "That was it? That's all I get for a couple of thousand bucks? Damn. I don't know. This is weird, I hope there is more to come."

In 15-ish years, we never addressed my actual childhood trauma, I never got to tell anyone how I felt about everything that happened to me when I was a child. I did not have the opportunity to cry my eyes out. To this day, just the thought of some events in my childhood bring back tears. Actually, when I cried in session, it was because the auditor kept asking me these acusative questions over and over and over, and I was so desperate to come up with something and I could not. I started crying because I felt like an idiot, like something is wrong with me. It felt awful.

Anyhows, I want to thank again for this forum and the ability to express my thoughts here. It is very therapeutic.

One last thought. I would like to go seek out a licensed psychologist however I am still afraid, suspicious. You know, I was brainwashed for far too long.

Did anyone one of you seek out a psychologist and tell them everything that was on your heart without the fear of being found out about?

 

[Glenda]

Auditing effectiveness: does it really work?

Let's see, when I was doing Dianetics and I started coming up with / making up "past life" images, the auditor told me: Let's focus on this life. That was my first disappointment. I was like "whaat?", I thought I am going to explore terra incognita, forbidden paths and mysteries of human life.

When I did Scientology grades and went through the whole notion of answering endless repeated commands, all I had to do what at some point star smiling and saying I feel good, and I feel like this and like that, and sort of like you know, enlightened and free.... I was done! The grade was finished. My first impression after my first grade completion was: "That was it? That's all I get for a couple of thousand bucks? Damn. I don't know. This is weird, I hope there is more to come."

In 15-ish years, we never addressed my actual childhood trauma, I never got to tell anyone how I felt about everything that happened to me when I was a child. I did not have the opportunity to cry my eyes out. To this day, just the thought of some events in my childhood bring back tears. Actually, when I cried in session, it was because the auditor kept asking me these acusative questions over and over and over, and I was so desperate to come up with something and I could not. I started crying because I felt like an idiot, like something is wrong with me. It felt awful.

Anyhows, I want to thank again for this forum and the ability to express my thoughts here. It is very therapeutic.

One last thought. I would like to go seek out a licensed psychologist however I am still afraid, suspicious. You know, I was brainwashed for far too long.

Did anyone one of you seek out a psychologist and tell them everything that was on your heart without the fear of being found out about?

Yes to your question about seeing a psychologist. I nearly passed out in the waiting room the first time I saw a psych-trained therapist. I am ex-CCHR and was up to my eyeballs in "the psychs are evil". I had a "brilliant" panic attack in the waiting room. I didn't think I'd make it into the therapists office without collapsing. I wanted to run out into the car-park. By the time I got into her office I was inelegantly glowing with sweat. I told her I was terrified, and why. She addressed my insane fears with dignity and calm.

So much of what my phobias were based on (Hubbard's stuff) became irrelevant once I started therapy. My spirituality was respected, encouraged even. I was very wary in the beginning. I think I was a total pain to be honest. I insisted the door be left ajar - my theory was if I didn't like what was happening I could get out of the room easily and run like hell to the car-park. My "the car-park is my safe place" theory. :

Later on I worked with a really experienced psychologist. I was still a little "psychs are all evil" and I told him that. We ended up working really well in a therapeutic relationship. I was able to "use him" to help me overcome the phobias scientology had installed. He encouraged me to explore, freely, what my fears of the psychs were based on. Terrific bloke. A very funny man too.

My point is, it can be done. A good psychologist, therapist, is worth working with if you can form a trusting therapeutic relationship. For me it wasn't easy in the beginning. I had that head-full of "the psychs are evil" to work through. But I did and I reckon if I can anyone can.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Just for the record, I'm not one of those and, I think, at least some here share my view that the "tech" is not all bad.

My problem with Dexter is his manner of interaction with others here when he is challenged.

I know you're not "one of those". I agree with you that Dex could keep his TRs in better when being challenged. It's not easy to have what you devote your life to criticized.

 

[pineapple]

Did anyone one of you seek out a psychologist and tell them everything that was on your heart without the fear of being found out about?

Yes, I saw a therapist for 2 1/2 years, starting a few years after I got out of scn. I didn't do this to handle trauma from scn, though. I was in scn for 7 years and was only lightly traumatized. Never joined SO (though I was on staff almost the whole time), didn't spend huge amounts of money on it, had no family in scn.

I never completely bought the "evil psychs" scenario. Ironically I began reading psych books while I was on staff. I had a nighttime wog job where I had lots of time to read. I read "I'm OK, You're OK" and "Games People Play" by Eric Berne, then tackled Freud's "Introductory Lectures on Psychoanalysis."

Seeing a therapist was a very good idea. I consider it one of the best decisions I've made in my life.

 

[He-man]

Did anyone one of you seek out a psychologist and tell them everything that was on your heart without the fear of being found out about?

I was seeing a psychologist for some years, once a month, to deal with a lot of the mental issues that I had/has. I had to change after three session because my first one just didn't get it. I figure he was too young and inexperienced I suppose.

After that, I met a real good one, she was able to help me put a lot of shit into perspective and gave me some useful tools to work with, I think she was a good listener, that's always important.

Been to a psychiatrist at two separate times, first when my mom died, second when my divorce was at its lowest peak.

For me, I think I come from the same mindset that @Glenda goes into in her post. I was scared at first, really scared. I mean, most of my "healing" or defrosting from the Scientology mind fuck I'd done alone, with a lot of help from this community, but I was only ever able to go seek help from the "psychs" once I was well scrubbed clean of the idea that they were evil, and even then it was hard to do it, since it entails being honest, sharing ones traumas and fears of "me".

I think, for me, once I had explained who I was, where I came from, it got easier. But building up to that point was the hard part. Once I was there it just flooded out of me.

My advice is always to not let your own fears shy you from getting help. If it feels better and you have friends who have no connection to actual Scientology, maybe you can share with one of them and see if they can go with you? That worked for me at one occasion.

Oh and yeah, stay away from Australian psychs. Most of them lack the koalafications to deal with Exes.

 

[Free to shine]

Oh and yeah, stay away from Australian psychs. Most of them lack the koalafications to deal with Exes.

Dear He-man, don't generalise.

I have an Australian psychologist who is more than Koalafied. Not only did she help this totally confused and at the time fucked up 2nd gen understand 'what is NORMAL' with humour and common sense, she also became quite educated on the horrible cult of scientology herself. She watched Going Clear and the Aftermath series so she could begin to understand the confusion and complexity I was trapped in, which is really something.

I must admit it took a while for some of my precision scientology facade to develop some cracks, maybe even a year or two to feel safe enough for the first tears to appear. And considering the vast lake of grief and distress I kept so well contained, she accomplished it well. Her remarkable patience and robust sense of humour at constantly being asked "Is this fucking NORMAL and how do normal people deal?" (that's what 2nd gens need to know) was exactly what I needed. I am very grateful to have had a qualified hand to grab onto through some of the incredibly challenging events of the last years.

 

[stratty]

Dear He-man, don't generalise.

I have an Australian psychologist who is more than Koalafied. Not only did she help this totally confused and at the time fucked up 2nd gen understand 'what is NORMAL' with humour and common sense, she also became quite educated on the horrible cult of scientology herself. She watched Going Clear and the Aftermath series so she could begin to understand the confusion and complexity I was trapped in, which is really something.

I must admit it took a while for some of my precision scientology facade to develop some cracks, maybe even a year or two to feel safe enough for the first tears to appear. And considering the vast lake of grief and distress I kept so well contained, she accomplished it well. Her remarkable patience and robust sense of humour at constantly being asked "Is this fucking NORMAL and how do normal people deal?" (that's what 2nd gens need to know) was exactly what I needed. I am very grateful to have had a qualified hand to grab onto through some of the incredibly challenging events of the last years.

I have an enormous amount of sympathy for 2nd gen scientologists. At least those of us who were 1st gen had some idea of what is 'normal' from our pre-scientology life, whereas those brought up hearing scientologese spoken all around them (sometimes from birth) have so much to unlearn before they even start approaching 'normality', not to mention scientology thinking, e.g. you're criticising 'x', what have you done to 'x'?

 

[He-man]

Dear He-man, don't generalise.

Saawry...



Friends again?

 

[Type4_PTS]

<snip>
Some realities: testimonials only go so far. No one advertises their bad feedback. The one where inappropriate touching might have allegedly happened or where the client was (emotionally, psychologically) swamped by the therapist during a particularly vulnerable period. Or where a highly inappropriate boundary is violated, let's say flirting enters the therapy. This is a short list of the things that can go wrong during therapy. I didn’t want to know the happy success stories of former clients, I wanted to know I was in good hands as I spilt my guts all over an office floor and tried to make sense of things. I wanted the therapist to build a safe place for me to explore my pain. This is intimate stuff so the person offering their services needed to have their shit together. I needed to have real trust to do some deep work.
<snip>

I don't bother to even look at testimonials that are put onto the website (or other marketing materials) of any medical professional or a business of any kind, for the exact reason you wrote. They can too easily be manipulated where only the very best feedback is cherry picked to lure in new customers, and typically that's the standard operating basis.

I do like third party review sites though where the business owner has little control of what gets posted. In the past, when choosing a doctor of any kind I've found it helpful reading reviews on multiple sites, and have found some great doctors in that way. Here's a random review site that has reviews of tens of thousands of psychologists in the U.S.
Best Psychologists in United States - Psychologists Reviews & Ratings - RateMDs

It's true that even these independent review sites can be manipulated to a degree, but they're much more reliable than testimonials one will find on the website of the business owner.

 

[Free to shine]

I have an enormous amount of sympathy for 2nd gen scientologists. At least those of us who were 1st gen had some idea of what is 'normal' from their pre-scientology life, whereas those brought up hearing scientologese spoken all around them (sometimes from birth) have so much to unlearn before they even start approaching 'normality'.

Thanks Stratty. I am luckier than most as my parents were Methodists before Dad found scio and had normal working lives, so I absorbed some of that up to 13. It's the 'born-ins' that have it the worst, because that is when core values are instilled. My children and siblings and others I know have no bloody idea of how they were affected because they think they "weren't scientologists" even though raised within it and maybe did a few courses as children. And so they don't know why such things as "exchange" or a myriad of other concepts seem to make life so difficult. Sigh.

 

[Free to shine]

Saawry...



Friends again?

I know your sense of humour, all is well.

 

[No One]

I will be the featured guest on a live TV program tomorrow, criticizing Scientology, in person, in my own name, stating specifics and showing my face. What will you be doing-sniping at me anonymously on the internet? How impressive.

DUDE - With this post and the last posts before it, you have not directed your vitriol at anyone in particular; IMO you are triggering a lot of people who have said nothing to you, about you, or about this thread, etc.

Rude! That alone makes me agree with the other's posting contrary to yours, or inquisitively as to qualifications.

Let's not make people block other people this first month in, eh? So let's take a step back, take a deep breath and chill the fuck out.

Some people remain anonymous because of 'reasons', as much as they might like to be able to do otherwise.

-No One

 

[Dex G]

Are you saying if you don't use a true name that you can't be credible? That's a stretch, many great writers used a pen name. I'm not including Hubbard in that.

What did you think of my question on rudiments?

I'm sorry, I haven't seen your question, what was it? Rudiments were an Alan Walter contribution. Sometimes they were helpful and appropriate, but mostly they were used to key out and get out of the way the issues and problems that really mattered to you so that the focus could be on the zillion irrelevant subjects of the grade chart.