What is Rhetoric?

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.
Irony...such as a strong proponent of Rhetoric does not have to ability to persuade anyone?
.

Well, now we 'bout ta edumacate Riddick to the vast and nuanced subject of RHETORIC; which is far more articulated, extensive and informative than his over-simplistic 3-choices-only model (pathos, ethos, logos).

To begin with I apologize for teaching Riddick an entire new glossary of RHETORIC terms, because it means this thread will last for millions of years, LOL. For example, he has never (to my knowledge) even mentioned
"Kairos" as the 4th component alongside of his favorite three. But, the list of rhetoric categories is far more extensive than "experts" formerly believed!

Well, here's an entire all-you-can-eat smorgasbord of rhetorical delicacies, LOL.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

REFERENCE LINK:
A rhetorical device is a linguistic tool that employs a particular type of sentence structure, sound, or pattern of meaning in order to evoke a particular reaction from an audience. Each rhetorical device is a distinct tool that can be used to construct an argument or make an existing argument more compelling.

Any time you try to inform, persuade, or argue with someone, you’re engaging in rhetoric. If you’ve ever had an emotional reaction to a speech or changed your mind about an issue after hearing a skilled debater's rebuttal, you've experienced the power of rhetoric. By developing a basic knowledge of rhetorical devices, you can improve your ability to process and convey information while also strengthening your persuasive skills.
Types of Rhetorical Devices
Rhetorical devices are loosely organized into the following four categories:

  1. Logos. Devices in this category seek to convince and persuade via logic and reason, and will usually make use of statistics, cited facts, and statements by authorities to make their point and persuade the listener.
    1. Pathos. These rhetorical devices base their appeal in emotion. This could mean invoking sympathy or pity in the listener, or making the audience angry in the service of inspiring action or changing their mind about something.
    2. Ethos. Ethical appeals try to convince the audience that the speaker is a credible source, that their words have weight and must be taken seriously because they are serious and have the experience and judgment necessary to decide what’s right.
    3. Kairos. This is one of the most difficult concepts in rhetoric; devices in this category are dependent on the idea that the time has come for a particular idea or action. The very timeliness of the idea is part of the argument.
Top Rhetorical Devices
Since rhetoric dates back to ancient times, much of the terminology used to discuss it comes from the original Greek. Despite its ancient origins, however, rhetoric is as vital as ever. The following list contains some of the most important rhetorical devices to understand:

  1. Alliteration, a sonic device, is the repetition of the initial sound of each word (e.g. Alan the antelope ate asparagus).
    1. Cacophony, a sonic device, is the combination of consonant sounds to create a displeasing effect.
    2. Onomatopoeia, a sonic device, refers to a word that emulates the real-life sound it signifies (e.g. using the word "bang" to signify an explosion).
    3. Humor creates connection and identification with audience members, thus increasing the likelihood that they will agree with the speaker. Humor can also be used to deflate counter-arguments and make opposing points of view appear ridiculous.
    4. Anaphora is the repetition of certain words or phrases at the beginning of sentences to increase the power of a sentiment. Perhaps the best-known example of anaphora is Martin Luther King Jr.'s repetition of the phrase "I have a dream."
    5. Meiosis is a type of euphemism that intentionally understates the size or importance of its subject. It can be used to dismiss or diminish a debate opponent's argument.
    6. Hyperbole is an exaggerated statement that conveys emotion and raises the bar for other speakers. Once you make a hyperbolic statement like “My idea is going to change the world," other speakers will have to respond in kind or their more measured words may seem dull and uninspiring in comparison.
    7. Apophasis is the verbal strategy of bringing up a subject by denying that that very subject should be brought up at all.
    8. Anacoluthon is a sudden swerve into a seemingly unrelated idea in the middle of a sentence. It can seem like a grammatical mistake if handled poorly, but it can also put powerful stress onto the idea being expressed.
    9. Chiasmus is a technique wherein the speaker inverts the order of a phrase in order to create a pretty and powerful sentence. The best example comes from President John F. Kennedy's inaugural address: "Ask not what your country can do for you— ask what you can do for your country."
    10. Anadiplosis is the use of the same word at the end of one sentence and at the beginning of the subsequent sentence, forming a chain of thought that carries your audience to the point you’ve chosen.
    11. Dialogismus refers to moments when the speaker imagines what someone else is thinking, or speaks in the voice of someone else, in order to explain and then subvert or undermine counterpoints to the original argument.
    12. Eutrepismus, one of the most common rhetorical devices, is simply the act of stating points in the form of a numbered list. Why is it useful? First off, this devices makes information seem official and authoritative. Second, it gives speech a sense of order and clarity. And third, it helps the listener keep track of the speaker's points.
    13. Hypophora is the trick of posing a question and then immediately supplying the answer. Do you know why hypophora is useful? It's useful because it stimulates listener interest and creates a clear transition point in the speech.
    14. Expeditio is the trick of listing a series of possibilities and then explaining why all but one of those possibilities are non-starters. This device makes it seem as though all choices have been considered, when in fact you've been steering your audience towards the one choice you desired all along.
    15. Antiphrasis is another word for irony. Antiphrasis refers to a statement whose actual meaning is the opposite of the literal meaning of the words within it.
    16. Asterismos. Look, this is the technique of inserting a useless but attention-grabbing word in front of your sentence in order to grab the audience’s attention. It's useful if you think your listeners are getting a bit bored and restless.
Examples of Rhetorical Devices
Rhetoric isn’t just for debates and arguments. These devices are used in everyday speech, fiction and screenwriting, legal arguments, and more. Consider these famous examples and their impact on their audience.

  1. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back.
    Rhetorical Device: Anadiplosis. The pairs of words at the beginning and ending of each sentence give the impression that the logic invoked is unassailable and perfectly assembled.
    1. Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.” —President John F. Kennedy.
      Rhetorical Device: Chiasmus. The inversion of the phrase can do and the word country creates a sense of balance in the sentence that reinforces the sense of correctness.
    2. "I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent’s youth and inexperience." –President Ronald Reagan
      Rhetorical Device: Apophasis. In this quip from a presidential debate, Reagan expresses mock reluctance to comment on his opponent's age, which ultimately does the job of raising the point of his opponent's age.
    3. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground.” —Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg Address.
      Rhetorical Device: Anaphora. Lincoln’s use of repetition gives his words a sense of rhythm that emphasizes his message. This is also an example of kairos: Lincoln senses that the public has a need to justify the slaughter of the Civil War, and thus decides to make this statement appealing to the higher purpose of abolishing slavery.
    4. Ladies and gentlemen, I've been to Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan, and I can say without hyperbole that this is a million times worse than all of them put together.” The Simpsons.
      Rhetorical Device: Hyperbole. Here, hyperbole is used to humorous effect in order to undermine the superficial point of the sentence.
Key Terms
  • Rhetoric. The discipline of discourse and persuasion via verbal argument.
    • Rhetorical Device. A tool used in the course of rhetoric, employing specific sentence structure, sounds, and imagery to attain a desired response.
    • Logos. The category of rhetorical devices that appeal to logic and reason.
    • Pathos. The category of rhetorical devices that appeal to emotions.
    • Ethos. The category of rhetorical devices that appeals to a sense of credibility.
    • Kairos. The concept of “right place, right time” in rhetoric, wherein a specific rhetorical device becomes effective because of circumstances surrounding its use.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

.
 
Last edited:

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.


And when you finish all your clay demos on the new terms (above) here are 30 MORE rhetorical terms no one on this planet has ever heard of, LOL.

LINK HERE


.
 

F.Bullbait

Wise Guy
.


.


Well, now we 'bout ta edumacate Riddick to the vast and nuanced subject of RHETORIC; which is far more articulated, extensive and informative than his over-simplistic 3-choices-only model (pathos, ethos, logos).

To begin with I apologize for teaching Riddick an entire new glossary of RHETORIC terms, because it means this thread will last for millions of years, LOL. For example, he has never (to my knowledge) even mentioned
"Kairos" as the 4th component alongside of his favorite three. But, the list of rhetoric categories is far more extensive than "experts" formerly believed!

Well, here's an entire all-you-can-eat smorgasbord of rhetorical delicacies, LOL.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

REFERENCE LINK:
A rhetorical device is a linguistic tool that employs a particular type of sentence structure, sound, or pattern of meaning in order to evoke a particular reaction from an audience. Each rhetorical device is a distinct tool that can be used to construct an argument or make an existing argument more compelling.

Any time you try to inform, persuade, or argue with someone, you’re engaging in rhetoric. If you’ve ever had an emotional reaction to a speech or changed your mind about an issue after hearing a skilled debater's rebuttal, you've experienced the power of rhetoric. By developing a basic knowledge of rhetorical devices, you can improve your ability to process and convey information while also strengthening your persuasive skills.
Types of Rhetorical Devices
Rhetorical devices are loosely organized into the following four categories:

  1. Logos. Devices in this category seek to convince and persuade via logic and reason, and will usually make use of statistics, cited facts, and statements by authorities to make their point and persuade the listener.
    1. Pathos. These rhetorical devices base their appeal in emotion. This could mean invoking sympathy or pity in the listener, or making the audience angry in the service of inspiring action or changing their mind about something.
    2. Ethos. Ethical appeals try to convince the audience that the speaker is a credible source, that their words have weight and must be taken seriously because they are serious and have the experience and judgment necessary to decide what’s right.
    3. Kairos. This is one of the most difficult concepts in rhetoric; devices in this category are dependent on the idea that the time has come for a particular idea or action. The very timeliness of the idea is part of the argument.
Top Rhetorical Devices
Since rhetoric dates back to ancient times, much of the terminology used to discuss it comes from the original Greek. Despite its ancient origins, however, rhetoric is as vital as ever. The following list contains some of the most important rhetorical devices to understand:

  1. Alliteration, a sonic device, is the repetition of the initial sound of each word (e.g. Alan the antelope ate asparagus).
    1. Cacophony, a sonic device, is the combination of consonant sounds to create a displeasing effect.
    2. Onomatopoeia, a sonic device, refers to a word that emulates the real-life sound it signifies (e.g. using the word "bang" to signify an explosion).
    3. Humor creates connection and identification with audience members, thus increasing the likelihood that they will agree with the speaker. Humor can also be used to deflate counter-arguments and make opposing points of view appear ridiculous.
    4. Anaphora is the repetition of certain words or phrases at the beginning of sentences to increase the power of a sentiment. Perhaps the best-known example of anaphora is Martin Luther King Jr.'s repetition of the phrase "I have a dream."
    5. Meiosis is a type of euphemism that intentionally understates the size or importance of its subject. It can be used to dismiss or diminish a debate opponent's argument.
    6. Hyperbole is an exaggerated statement that conveys emotion and raises the bar for other speakers. Once you make a hyperbolic statement like “My idea is going to change the world," other speakers will have to respond in kind or their more measured words may seem dull and uninspiring in comparison.
    7. Apophasis is the verbal strategy of bringing up a subject by denying that that very subject should be brought up at all.
    8. Anacoluthon is a sudden swerve into a seemingly unrelated idea in the middle of a sentence. It can seem like a grammatical mistake if handled poorly, but it can also put powerful stress onto the idea being expressed.
    9. Chiasmus is a technique wherein the speaker inverts the order of a phrase in order to create a pretty and powerful sentence. The best example comes from President John F. Kennedy's inaugural address: "Ask not what your country can do for you— ask what you can do for your country."
    10. Anadiplosis is the use of the same word at the end of one sentence and at the beginning of the subsequent sentence, forming a chain of thought that carries your audience to the point you’ve chosen.
    11. Dialogismus refers to moments when the speaker imagines what someone else is thinking, or speaks in the voice of someone else, in order to explain and then subvert or undermine counterpoints to the original argument.
    12. Eutrepismus, one of the most common rhetorical devices, is simply the act of stating points in the form of a numbered list. Why is it useful? First off, this devices makes information seem official and authoritative. Second, it gives speech a sense of order and clarity. And third, it helps the listener keep track of the speaker's points.
    13. Hypophora is the trick of posing a question and then immediately supplying the answer. Do you know why hypophora is useful? It's useful because it stimulates listener interest and creates a clear transition point in the speech.
    14. Expeditio is the trick of listing a series of possibilities and then explaining why all but one of those possibilities are non-starters. This device makes it seem as though all choices have been considered, when in fact you've been steering your audience towards the one choice you desired all along.
    15. Antiphrasis is another word for irony. Antiphrasis refers to a statement whose actual meaning is the opposite of the literal meaning of the words within it.
    16. Asterismos. Look, this is the technique of inserting a useless but attention-grabbing word in front of your sentence in order to grab the audience’s attention. It's useful if you think your listeners are getting a bit bored and restless.
Examples of Rhetorical Devices
Rhetoric isn’t just for debates and arguments. These devices are used in everyday speech, fiction and screenwriting, legal arguments, and more. Consider these famous examples and their impact on their audience.

  1. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back.
    Rhetorical Device: Anadiplosis. The pairs of words at the beginning and ending of each sentence give the impression that the logic invoked is unassailable and perfectly assembled.
    1. Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.” —President John F. Kennedy.
      Rhetorical Device: Chiasmus. The inversion of the phrase can do and the word country creates a sense of balance in the sentence that reinforces the sense of correctness.
    2. "I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent’s youth and inexperience." –President Ronald Reagan
      Rhetorical Device: Apophasis. In this quip from a presidential debate, Reagan expresses mock reluctance to comment on his opponent's age, which ultimately does the job of raising the point of his opponent's age.
    3. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground.” —Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg Address.
      Rhetorical Device: Anaphora. Lincoln’s use of repetition gives his words a sense of rhythm that emphasizes his message. This is also an example of kairos: Lincoln senses that the public has a need to justify the slaughter of the Civil War, and thus decides to make this statement appealing to the higher purpose of abolishing slavery.
    4. Ladies and gentlemen, I've been to Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan, and I can say without hyperbole that this is a million times worse than all of them put together.” The Simpsons.
      Rhetorical Device: Hyperbole. Here, hyperbole is used to humorous effect in order to undermine the superficial point of the sentence.
Key Terms
  • Rhetoric. The discipline of discourse and persuasion via verbal argument.
    • Rhetorical Device. A tool used in the course of rhetoric, employing specific sentence structure, sounds, and imagery to attain a desired response.
    • Logos. The category of rhetorical devices that appeal to logic and reason.
    • Pathos. The category of rhetorical devices that appeal to emotions.
    • Ethos. The category of rhetorical devices that appeals to a sense of credibility.
    • Kairos. The concept of “right place, right time” in rhetoric, wherein a specific rhetorical device becomes effective because of circumstances surrounding its use.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

.
Wellll...he DID persuade me that he was unpersuasive.
 

F.Bullbait

Wise Guy
.


And when you finish all your clay demos on the new terms (above) here are 30 MORE rhetorical terms no one on this planet has ever heard of, LOL.

LINK HERE


.
To really make this go on and on, after his clay demos, have him M1 everything then retread everything then send him to ethics then pathics then logoics then route him to the reg to sign him up for some rundowns and repair actions and then top it off with a billion year contract.

Anyhoo...after all that he should be convinced if not persuaded. Ah, the good old fashioned cult wringer!
 
Last edited:

pineapple

Well-known member
To really make this go on and on, after his clay demos, have him M1 everything then retread everything then send him to ethics then pathics then logoics then route him to the reg to sign him up for some rundowns and repair actions and then top it off with a billion year contract.

Anyhoo...after all that he should be convinced if not persuaded. Ah, the good old fashioned cult wringer!
That's yet another rhetorical device -- scientologos.
 

Bill

Well-known member
The whole purpose, one might ask, is of rhetoric? That purpose is to persuade another of ones' ideas. Hubbard's ideas were that one could go clear using dianetic procedures when that book first came out. Later on, his purpose or rhetoric was to persuade that scientology was the answer.

Rhetoric: A Definition and Rhetorical Devices Explained| Grammarly Blog

"Rhetoric is language that’s carefully constructed to persuade, motivate, or inform the reader or listener about the speaker or writer’s position."

Hubbard's position was one could go clear and then OT.

Of course, this is all false, for nobody went clear or OT or returned from past life.
I think you'd better go back and word clear the word "rhetoric". You appear to think that "lies" and "rhetoric" are the same thing. "Rhetoric" might include false information or might not. It isn't part of the definition. :duh:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
I think you'd better go back and word clear the word "rhetoric". You appear to think that "lies" and "rhetoric" are the same thing. "Rhetoric" might include false information or might not. It isn't part of the definition. :duh:
.

It's a bummer when the expert on rhetoric is spotted in the cramming department, bogged down with 7 dictionaries open at the word clearer.

I think where Riddick first got into trouble (besides not fully understanding what the word "rhetoric" means) is just this. He only knows and uses 3 words or we should say 3 BOXES that he tries to fit everything into.

LOGOS BOX

PATHOS BOX

ETHOS BOX​

An analogous problem would be if someone tried to explain Scientology only using three boxes.


ENGRAMS

BTs

IMPLANTS​

In such a case, no matter what was being described there would be a tortured effort to try to answer by attributing the problem to one of those three. Naturally, someone who only knew 3 of Scientology's 3 million technical explanations would become very confused and promptly be asked to stop giving introductory lectures in Div VI. LOL

..
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
The purpose of this tread is to point out Hubbard's rhetoric, not mine. I'm only trying to point what I see regards Hubbard's rhetoric.

It's amazing the trolling going on regarding my postings here. I promised to not post on other treads about Hubbard's rhetoric and have kept that promise.

The Now: What is Trolling? (gcfglobal.org)
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
Even the words dianetics and scientology are logos appeals, to make the subject sound logical.

Dianetics means according to hubbard and derived from the Greek word dia meaning through and nous meaning mind or soul. So in simple terms this meant if one did dianetics auditing, why one could become a well and happy person (pathos). Hubbard presented himself in this book as figuring it all out (ethos) and he told or wrote on why it was possible.

Scientology means science plus ology which means science (logos) plus ology which means study of. This is a logos appeal to make scientology sound scientific or logical. When the emeter was introduced and included in auditing, this was another logos appeal of Hubbard's rhetoric.
 
Last edited:

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.

Scientology means science plus ology which means science (logos) plus ology which means study of. This is a logos appeal to make scientology sound scientific or logical. When the emeter was introduced and included in auditing, this was another logos appeal of Hubbard's rhetoric.

PRO TIP: An e-meter is not a "logos appeal". An e-meter is a device. A pseudo-scientific quack device used by charlatans and con men. An e-meter is a thing--a physical universe object. It would be good if you understood the words you are using if you want to persuade anyone. The e-meter is merely one (1) component or element of a scientific fraud. It's not the same as the word rhetoric or logos. Be sure to write a success story.

.
 
Last edited:

Bill

Well-known member
The purpose of this tread is to point out Hubbard's rhetoric, not mine. I'm only trying to point what I see regards Hubbard's rhetoric.

It's amazing the trolling going on regarding my postings here. I promised to not post on other treads about Hubbard's rhetoric and have kept that promise.

The Now: What is Trolling? (gcfglobal.org)
I know this what you think you are doing, but it isn't. What you are doing, in a very limited way, is pointing out Hubbard's lies. That is not good examples of rhetoric.

If you want to keep lecturing your invisible audience about "rhetoric", you should understand rhetoric. You could give specific examples of how Hubbard used various persuasive techniques in his writings and lectures and that might be a very interesting study -- but you haven't done that. You just say "Hubbard lied! That shows rhetoric!"

You are increasing reader's misunderstanding of rhetoric.
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
I myself fell for the most part Hubbard's logos appeal of being a nuclear scientist as his logos appeal, of course I didn't know at the time he was not and only said so. I didn't research at the time when I got involved, there was no internet back then. Only word of mouth or reading his books, but I never heard of dianetics and scientology before when I got involved.

The book dianetics the modern science of mental health appealed to me because of the word science. Scientology later appealed to me because it has the word science in it. My background is more or less from a science or engineering background.

I reckon doctors and chiropractors got involved for the same reason.

I think, IMHO, actors and celebrities got involved for more pathos reasons.

But, it is still a combo of ethos, pathos and logos to persuade one to join a idea or group.
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
This is good:

6 Ways to Persuade People - wikiHow

"Lean on ethos, pathos, and logos. You know how in college you went through that Lit course that taught you about Aristotle's appeals? No? Well, here's your brush up. The guy was smart -- and these appeals are so human they remain true to this day.
  • Ethos -- think credibility. We tend to believe people whom we respect. Why do you think spokesmen exist? For this exact appeal. Here's an example: Hanes. Good underwear, respectable company. Is that enough for you to buy their product? Well, maybe. Wait, Michael Jordan has been sporting Hanes for over two decades?[3] Sold!
  • Pathos -- relies on your emotions. Everyone knows that SPCA commercial with Sarah McLachlan and the sad music and the sad puppies. That commercial is the worst. Why? Because you watch it, you get sad, and you feel compelled to help the puppies. Pathos at its finest.
  • Logos -- that's the root of the word "logic." This is perhaps the most honest of the persuasion methods. You simply state why the person you're talking to should agree with you. That's why statistics are used so prevalently. If you were told, "On average, adults who smoke cigarettes die 14 years earlier than nonsmokers," (which is true, by the way[4]), and you believed you wanted to live a long, healthy life, logic would dictate that you stop. Boom. Persuasion."
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
"Logos -- that's the root of the word "logic." This is perhaps the most honest of the persuasion methods. You simply state why the person you're talking to should agree with you. That's why statistics are used so prevalently. If you were told, "On average, adults who smoke cigarettes die 14 years earlier than nonsmokers," (which is true, by the way[4]), and you believed you wanted to live a long, healthy life, logic would dictate that you stop. Boom. Persuasion."

Scientology is big on statistics. Anybody who was a staff member or even public will know this. Gotta gets our stats up, week after week, day by day.
 

F.Bullbait

Wise Guy
Before Rhetoric, there was just Rock...


Later in life Ron brought back Rock as a valid concept but only if it is just Ron's Rock. That is the Game.
 
Last edited:

Riddick

I clap to no man
"Ethos -- think credibility. We tend to believe people whom we respect. Why do you think spokesmen exist? For this exact appeal. Here's an example: Hanes. Good underwear, respectable company. Is that enough for you to buy their product? Well, maybe. Wait, Michael Jordan has been sporting Hanes for over two decades?[3] Sold!"

Some examples would be John McMaster. And of course, Mike Rinder Marty Rathbun Guillaume Lesevre Debbie Cook, etc.

These were all spokesmen forwarding Hubbards ethos of scientology. You have to think big picture.

All these people are out or in the hole. The point is the rhetoric of ethos that we fell for, for hubbard and his spokesmen.
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
"Ethos -- think credibility. We tend to believe people whom we respect. Why do you think spokesmen exist? For this exact appeal. Here's an example: Hanes. Good underwear, respectable company. Is that enough for you to buy their product? Well, maybe. Wait, Michael Jordan has been sporting Hanes for over two decades?[3] Sold!"

Some examples would be John McMaster. And of course, Mike Rinder Marty Rathbun Guillaume Lesevre Debbie Cook, etc.

These were all spokesmen forwarding Hubbards ethos of scientology. You have to think big picture.

All these people are out or in the hole. The point is the rhetoric of ethos that we fell for, for hubbard and his spokesmen.
The Missing Executives of Scientology (mikerindersblog.org)

"Guillaume, due to his popularity and recognition as a public figure in scientology was seen by Miscavige as a threat to his position. Thus, he was removed from the public eye. So too Heber Jentzsch and anyone else Miscavige thought a threat: Marc Yager, Norman Starkey, Ray Mithoff, Mark Ingber and even Janet Light (former head of IAS) and Russ Bellin (former head of CST). His wife Shelly fell into the same category."

This is because of the ethos appeal these executives had and DM did not. I don't think some posters here will get this.
 
Top