Karakorum
千差万別
Huh?
Revisiting OTVIII . . . what, again??!! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- Thread starter ILove2Lurk
- Start date
D
Deleted member 51
Guest
Huh?
Hubbard was cremated. He was under control of DM and handlers for years. That evidence doesn't exist and wouldn't ever exist in the cult of Scientology. That's what I mean by you're dreaming.
Karakorum
千差万別
That's exactly what I meant. Check this post here
"We have the problem of not having much trustworthy and independent data on Hubbard's last month. We have the coroner's report and not much else. "
That was exactly my point: Trustworthy and independent evidence does not exist... other than the coroner's report.
So if I see any witness testimony that doesn't match the coroner's report, I go with the report.
ILove2Lurk
. . Lisbeth Salander . . Back in Sweden
Steve "Sarge" Pfauth is as trustworthy and loyal of an individual as you could
meet in this world, according to people who knew him well over many years.
Hubbard considered him as one his most trusted long-term friends, helpers.
His account of the events is good enough for me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Karakorum
千差万別
I respect that, but when I have to choose between him and the coroner, I'll go with the coroner.
The coroner's report is in no way flattering to Hubbard or the church so I don't see any evidence of the coroner being bribed.
ILove2Lurk
. . Lisbeth Salander . . Back in Sweden
Yes, people have different views about life.
D
Deleted member 51
Guest
Thanks.
As far as Hubbard's last month, besides the coroner's report, there's Sarge's testimony, and also Jesse Prince's. Jesse was the head of RTC at the time. Much as I adore Jesse, you'll have to wade through his book; it's not his best style of writing (What happened, Jesse?) but packed with information, with a lot of detail about Hubbard's final few months.
Karen said in her post here: Revisiting OTVIII . . . what, again??!! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
that there is documentation of letters Sarge wrote at the time to Janis Grady and Terri Gamboa. @Karen#1 , are these letters available for us to see?
Dotey OT
Re-Membered
It seems that a thread can be derailed.
@ILove2Lurk please post more while the detective inspector snoozes!!!
@ILove2Lurk please post more while the detective inspector snoozes!!!
Karen#1
Well-known member
No autopsy was performed.
Unless Ray Mitzinberger blows and speaks out about it or Pat Broeker comes out of hiding there's no other witnesses.
Karen#1
Well-known member
Excerpt from Associated Press wire
Four days before his death, Hubbard signed a document requesting that no autopsy be conducted because of his religious beliefs, church officials said. His body was cremated.
Source:
apnews.com
Four days before his death, Hubbard signed a document requesting that no autopsy be conducted because of his religious beliefs, church officials said. His body was cremated.
Source:
Sheriff-Coroner Declines To Conduct Inquest In Hubbard Death
SAN LUIS OBISPO, Calif. (AP) _ A coroner has rejected a request for an inquest into the death of Church of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, saying there's no reason to doubt that he died of a stroke. At the time of Hubbard's death, he was attended by Dr. Eugene Denk of Los Angeles, who...
apnews.com
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ILove2Lurk
. . Lisbeth Salander . . Back in Sweden
Oh, that's so funny. Some folks don't have the ability to look at a simple fact
staring them in the face and have to make much more of it to fit a more
complex way of looking at the world. Oh, well.
I pretty much said all I had on my mind in the OP then clarified it in this post,
which some people really liked a lot.
For a fantasy to be carried along, people have to lie about it every day, otherwise
it blows away in the wind and is gone forever. Most of us who were public or staff
just believed it all and sustained the fantasy. Until we didn't. I suspect a lot of Int
management learned the truth about Hubbard's utter failure to achieve a higher,
super-human state and decided to sustain the fantasy over time for their own reasons.
Over the years, I've asked a few former upper SO management to spill the beans on
the whole insider story and nobody will. Probably because of their own involvements.
Stealing $3 billion from people for something you found out doesn't really exist could
cause some sleepless nights. Or recruiting some young person into the SO when you
yourself know it's a living hell and bunch of BS most days . . . .
HelluvaHoax!
Well-known member
When Ron was cremated the coroner did not observe any evidence that Ron was hiding large amounts of cash inside his clothing---so I don't see any evidence that Ron defrauded Scientologists out of 250 million dollars.
Like you, "I'll go with the coroner" who proved that Ron was super ethical and kept his exchange in.
.
D
Deleted member 51
Guest
Apparently you are either unfamiliar with the lawsuit that was filed against COS over the Hubbard estate, as well as other affidavits and statements from MANY members about coercive measures taken by COS or you are just refusing to accept them.
For starters, here is one of the affidavits of Andre Tabayoyon. There are quite a few.
Operation Clambake and ronthenut.org present: Andre Tabayoyon Affidavit
Det er kulter der ute som trenger å avsløres, fordi de ødelegger mennesker. Scientologikirken er en slik kult, og for å dokumentere en så sterk påstand behøver jeg å samle noe av deres hemmelige lære. Mitt ønske er at du leser dette og gjør deg opp din egen mening.
www.xenu.net
I knew Andre personally and very well. He is a good man with a great deal of integrity. Andre was on one of the original sea vessels with L Ron Hubbard and worked as his personal valet and bodyguard for many years, sleeping in an adjoining room to his. He was with L Ron daily. Andre was loyal to Hubbard because Hubbard had rescued him at sea with one of the original SO ships, so L Ron trusted him completely and Andre felt he owed his life to Hubbard so stayed on the ship protecting and helping in any way, even though he was not initially recruited to the Sea Org as a believing Scientologist. That was until the late 70s and early 80s, when L Ron became increasingly paranoid and one of the messengers (I believe it was DM) worked hard to separate Tabayoyon from Hubbard. Andre was hurt and perplexed (I remember it because we were friends) and worried that L Ron was in danger.
I'm telling you this as background so you understand their close relationship. Few people alive today spent as much time with Hubbard as Andre. For many years, Andre was featured as a speaker and told personal stories about Hubbard at Sea Org and Scientology events. He came out as an ex-Scientologist but has not been publicly active exposing Scientology crimes for many years.
Andre's testimony here and elsewhere is completely dependable.
HelluvaHoax!
Well-known member
.
Apologies for de-railing all the forensics surrounding the last days of "mankind's greatest dead OT" but I just re-read the original post on this lively thread, and took a moment to read the link to Tony Ortega's UNDERGROUND BUNKER that originally ran the story. Here is for all intents and purposes the key quote by eyewitness Steve Hall:
"That night when Dan and I were called up to the CMOI Conference Room, we were handed a single LRH Advice which was the very one now identified as from the Original OT 8 materials, but neither Dan nor I knew from whence it had come. In the advice, LRH said that he had been Lucifer, whose name meant “bringer of light.” He said that Jesus was a lover of young boys, etc. After we read the advice, COB wanted to know what Dan and I thought about it. We didn’t really know what to say (as per usual, a fact which drove COB nuts) since with COB anytime he asked you a question, you were on the edge of a precipice. Answer wrong, and you could expect instant retaliation and likely punishment. In that kind of situation, something vague was usually a safer response. So we both just said we thought it was “really cool.” COB questioned us a bit more to verify we had a positive reaction to it. We said we thought it was “definitely OT.” After he saw our reaction was “positive,” he looked at Marc Yager as if to say, “See, I told you so you, you stupid fuck.” Today, that encounter tells me that it was probably COB’s idea (if not Hubbard’s) to incorporate that advice into the OT 8 materials, an idea that went over like a lead balloon filled with bricks… and angry killer bees. [The Original OT 8 course was only offered for a few months in 1988, reportedly causing considerable upset with the Scientologists who experienced it. Since then a different version, which we detailed here, has replaced it, and makes no mention of Hubbard’s claim to be the Antichrist."
It's a stunning revelation, because:
Apologies for de-railing all the forensics surrounding the last days of "mankind's greatest dead OT" but I just re-read the original post on this lively thread, and took a moment to read the link to Tony Ortega's UNDERGROUND BUNKER that originally ran the story. Here is for all intents and purposes the key quote by eyewitness Steve Hall:
"That night when Dan and I were called up to the CMOI Conference Room, we were handed a single LRH Advice which was the very one now identified as from the Original OT 8 materials, but neither Dan nor I knew from whence it had come. In the advice, LRH said that he had been Lucifer, whose name meant “bringer of light.” He said that Jesus was a lover of young boys, etc. After we read the advice, COB wanted to know what Dan and I thought about it. We didn’t really know what to say (as per usual, a fact which drove COB nuts) since with COB anytime he asked you a question, you were on the edge of a precipice. Answer wrong, and you could expect instant retaliation and likely punishment. In that kind of situation, something vague was usually a safer response. So we both just said we thought it was “really cool.” COB questioned us a bit more to verify we had a positive reaction to it. We said we thought it was “definitely OT.” After he saw our reaction was “positive,” he looked at Marc Yager as if to say, “See, I told you so you, you stupid fuck.” Today, that encounter tells me that it was probably COB’s idea (if not Hubbard’s) to incorporate that advice into the OT 8 materials, an idea that went over like a lead balloon filled with bricks… and angry killer bees. [The Original OT 8 course was only offered for a few months in 1988, reportedly causing considerable upset with the Scientologists who experienced it. Since then a different version, which we detailed here, has replaced it, and makes no mention of Hubbard’s claim to be the Antichrist."
It's a stunning revelation, because:
- - It finally puts to rest all the hand-wringing speculation about whether Hubbard wrote the "ANTI-CHRIST" version of OT VIII. He wrote it. And that once again confirms how incredibly stupid Hubbard's hoax truly is.
- - And here's the other key takeaway, that has everything you ever wanted or needed to know about how frightfully crazy a crazy cult can be.
COB
So now that you have read that Ron stated that
he is the Anti-Christ, what do you think of it?
STEVE/DAN
(thinks "Ron's totally psychotic!" but
responds aloud in cheery unison)
Really Cool!!!
COB
(triumphantly glaring at elite international exec Yager)
See, I told you so, you stupid fuck!
YAGER
(says nothing, thinks to himself: "You stupid fuck,
one day I am going to blow and turn state's witness--but
not before loading your car with remote-detonating explosives".
Yager then responds cheerily--)
Really Cool!!!"
.
So now that you have read that Ron stated that
he is the Anti-Christ, what do you think of it?
STEVE/DAN
(thinks "Ron's totally psychotic!" but
responds aloud in cheery unison)
Really Cool!!!
COB
(triumphantly glaring at elite international exec Yager)
See, I told you so, you stupid fuck!
YAGER
(says nothing, thinks to himself: "You stupid fuck,
one day I am going to blow and turn state's witness--but
not before loading your car with remote-detonating explosives".
Yager then responds cheerily--)
Really Cool!!!"
.
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ILove2Lurk
. . Lisbeth Salander . . Back in Sweden
Thank you.
Confirms why I wrote my original post to revisit the topic one more time.
I'm not a lone voice in the wilderness!
What went on behind closed doors in those heady years right after LRH died, as evidenced
by the goofy repartee @HelluvaHoax! just pointed out, has got to have been mind-blowing.
Sadly, not a whole lot of the "deep insiders" are talking. I assume most of them are still locked
up in The Hole under house arrest for the rest of their lives. We all know the names and faces.
The Cabal of SO execs, who inherited a hefty war war chest of about $425 million, sat there and
schemed and invented a whole new dazzling panoply of fraudulent technology and hyperbolic
promises to layer on top of then recently deceased Hubbard's failed 36-year experiment. They
knew what they were doing. How could they not?
The Phoenix that rose from the ashes of Tech 1.0 saw life and a future reborn in Tech 2.0, which
ultimately grew, let's say, to about a $3 billion corporate valuation under Miscavige and The Cabal.
Oh, how I would have loved to have been a fly in the room. There's a whole supremely interesting
story to be told.
My book cover vision for an expose of The Cabal and their fraudulent machinations post '86 . . .
in the spirit of the book about the Enron insiders and their fraudulent machinations. All the closed-
door conversations, the flights of (tech) fancy, the then newly wealthy, self-aggrandizing dreamers
and schemers laid bare.
"I respect that, but when I have to choose between
him and the coroner, I'll go with the coroner."
him and the coroner, I'll go with the coroner."
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HelluvaHoax!
Well-known member
Thank you.
Confirms why I wrote my original post to revisit the topic one more time.
I'm not a lone voice in the wilderness!
What went on behind closed doors in those heady years right after LRH died, as evidenced
by the goofy repartee @HelluvaHoax! just pointed out, has got to have been mind-blowing.
Sadly, not a whole lot of the "deep insiders" are talking. I assume most of them are still locked
up in The Hole under house arrest for the rest of their lives. We all know the names and faces.
The Cabal of SO execs, who inherited a hefty war war chest of about $425 million, sat there and
schemed and invented a whole new dazzling panoply of fraudulent technology and hyperbolic
promises to layer on top of then recently deceased Hubbard's failed 36-year experiment. They
knew what they were doing. How could they not?
The Phoenix that rose from the ashes of Tech 1.0 saw life and a future reborn in Tech 2.0, which
ultimately grew, let's say, to about a $3 billion corporate valuation under Miscavige and The Cabal.
Oh, how I would have loved to have been a fly in the room. There's a whole supremely interesting
story to be told.
My book cover vision for an expose of The Cabal and their fraudulent machinations post '86 . . .
in the spirit of the book about the Enron insiders and their fraudulent machinations. All the closed-
door conversations, the flights of (tech) fancy, the then newly wealthy, self-aggrandizing dreamers
and schemers laid bare.
"I respect that, but when I have to choose between
him and the coroner, I'll go with the coroner."
LOL - LOL - LOL. Burst out laughing on that one. Damn I may have actually gotten an adrenaline spike from the double-barreled punchlines---so if i don't fall asleep before sunrise, expect a KR!
By the way, that book ("Smartest Guys In The Room") was such a smash hit, it's safe to assume there is a huge public appetite for a sequel.
I have contender for the next book's title. Same graphics, but the Helluvahoax quote reads: "A BLUEBIRD RISING FROM THE ASHES!" (and the phoenix bird's color should be changed from gold to a Pac "Big Blue" color.
.
Enthetan
Veteran of the Psychic Wars
I also knew Andre, and also vouch for him.
ILove2Lurk
. . Lisbeth Salander . . Back in Sweden
I just read through this entire thread again from the beginning.
One of the most entertaining and interesting threads I've ever
read. Especially good for new "ex" people or curious visitors.
One of the most entertaining and interesting threads I've ever
read. Especially good for new "ex" people or curious visitors.
"One of the most insightfully direct and irrefutably illuminating
posts (ever) whether on ESMB or any other Scn-related website."
"lively thread"
I was the OP (original poster). 
Pretty biased.
Pretty biased.
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