Revisiting OTVIII . . . what, again??!! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I M Dex said:
I can de-mystify that one for you. This was before L's, False Purpose Rundown, Key to Life, Survival Rundown, Super Duper Pooper Power and any and all other ancillary "bridge" income streams, and the cardinal rule of Scientology being to always have something else to use to extract money from everybody, so all that was left to sell as the solution to why everybody never actually arrived at the promised lofty states of being was more of the same.
It reminds me of the NY org C/S I had to deal with in the 1980's who called people "missed cases" and "flubby auditors" behind their backs. (You see, "the tech" was 100% workable, it was just that nobody worked it right). :)
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OK let's pretend for a moment that the tech works, that Scientology alone can give us immortality and all that...

Scientology has a problem. If you believe that the only salvation for mankind is Sienctology then per KSW policy there is no one that could be trusted to invent, improve or change the tech in any way. LRH was perfect but he got it wrong himself or Dianetics the modern science of mental health would be all that was needed. Therefore the bridge to total freedom only goes half way across the abyss, leaving the foot passengers high above the swirling waters and spitting magma bellow. Therefore unless Hubbard comes back the faithful are probably worse off than they were before. I know that people who didn't move on after clear were supposed to be in danger of becoming ethics catastrophes so I suppose OT8s would be the same dramatising the next thing (that isn't there) that OT9 would handle, If the result of OT9 would be truly being yourself then I would expect OT8s to be completely 'out of valence' and in deep shit.
 
La La Lou Lou said:
OK let's pretend for a moment that the tech works, that Scientology alone can give us immortality and all that...

Scientology has a problem. If you believe that the only salvation for mankind is Sienctology then per KSW policy there is no one that could be trusted to invent, improve or change the tech in any way. LRH was perfect but he got it wrong himself or Dianetics the modern science of mental health would be all that was needed. Therefore the bridge to total freedom only goes half way across the abyss, leaving the foot passengers high above the swirling waters and spitting magma bellow. Therefore unless Hubbard comes back the faithful are probably worse off than they were before. I know that people who didn't move on after clear were supposed to be in danger of becoming ethics catastrophes so I suppose OT8s would be the same dramatising the next thing (that isn't there) that OT9 would handle, If the result of OT9 would be truly being yourself then I would expect OT8s to be completely 'out of valence' and in deep shit.
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..
Cool post and perspective!

If OT VIII is the "final product" of Scientology---which it absolutely is---then it means that:

ALL OT 8s HAVE BEEN RELEASED INTO THE ENVIRONMENT
WITH THE SAME PECULIARLY BIZARRE MENTAL AFFLICTION.
THEY ALL "KNOW WHO THEY ARE NOT BUT THEY ARE
INTERESTED TO FIND OUT WHO THEY ARE".
​
Consider that for a moment. . .

No really, picture a mob of cult zombies all shuffling in trance-like fashion thru a city with the identical mental disability that causes them to conclude that they are not the BTs they thought they were---and they now need to go out into the world to somehow figure out who they really are.

Who would want to pay $700,000 to end up with that implant and resultant mental illness? LOL

Weirdest of all, OT 8s wander around trying to figure out who they are while grinning and glowing at graduations and events where they promote the glorious state of OT VIII to other lower level cult members. Wogs call that lying.

..
 
HelluvaHoax! said:
..
Cool post and perspective!

If OT VIII is the "final product" of Scientology---which it absolutely is---then it means that:

ALL OT 8s HAVE BEEN RELEASED INTO THE ENVIRONMENT
WITH THE SAME PECULIARLY BIZARRE MENTAL AFFLICTION.
THEY ALL "KNOW WHO THEY ARE NOT BUT THEY ARE
INTERESTED TO FIND OUT WHO THEY ARE".
​
Consider that for a moment. . .

No really, picture a mob of cult zombies all shuffling in trance-like fashion thru a city with the identical mental disability that causes them to conclude that they are not the BTs they thought they were---and they now need to go out into the world to somehow figure out who they really are.

Who would want to pay $700,000 to end up with that implant and resultant mental illness? LOL

Weirdest of all, OT 8s wander around trying to figure out who they are while grinning and glowing at graduations and events where they promote the glorious state of OT VIII to other lower level cult members. Wogs call that lying.

..
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That sounds familiar, it's a very low condition, meaning that all the OT8s would be either enemies or treasonous, can't remember which one now. It wouldn't bode well for the Cult Of Scientology
 
Reyne Mayer said:
was that during the period of "quickie clears" -- "natural clears" and that sort of thing?

i get the impression that LRH was trying to increase the income of the orgs, when they were struggling in the wake of the end of the youth counterculture movement.
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vegan3 said:
i don't know what a "natural clear" is so i would say no. i haven't heard that term so my only guess is that it was after my era. i hadn't done the grades, only learned how to audit them. when i learned, you had to do the processes i think it was four flows. the newsletters mentioned it a bit back then. me to you, you to me, me to others, others to others or some such thing. there is a definition out there of what the flows are about. so the quickie ones meant all the flows weren't run. theoretically, if all flows weren't run, then you weren't "flat" on the subject, you still had the "charge". but since he was a complete raving loon, nothing really makes sense anyway! nor does it generally work.
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yes. Around 1972 there was Natural Clear… Keyed out Clear…and even last lifetime Clear, I believe??

Expanded Dianetics was still done, which was canceled as a procedure later. Grades were 3 flows?
The Clearing Course still had to be done…as any sort of keyed out clear was not considered permanent.
Later around 1978 there was the Clear Certainty Rundown…. For those who had gone Clear on Dianetics as that was then considered valid. Then one didn’t have to do the clearing course… 4 Flows were done. But one could go in and do "expanded grades" and just pick up that last flow....on the things run from one's folders...
Expanded Dianetics was cancelled….and that Book was no longer sold.

I’d forgotten about all the changes during that time period.

Edited: Then the whole bridge changed again with New OT 4,5 6 and 7. The original OT Levels 4, 5, 6 and 7 were completely cancelled....
I believe this was around 1978 also....but don't remember.

Was always curious about the Original OT Levels...... I think it even became an Ethics Matter if one said "original OT Levels..."
 
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Lee #28 said:
y
Later around 1978 there was the Clear Certainty Rundown…. For those who had gone Clear on Dianetics as that was then considered valid. Then one didn’t have to do the clearing course…
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Actually, around 1979, the DCSI ("Dianetic Clear Special Intensive") was put together to settle uncertainty about being "clear" (nobody ever was, so you can imagine the cognitive dissonance). Needless to say, it didn't. Around 1982, in the face of the DCSI not working out very well, it was cancelled and replaced by the CCRD ("Clear Certainty Rundown"), which, while rebranded, was not substantially different in procedure or results. Of course, the real unending quandary was and is that the "state of clear", as described (and even with shifting watered down and vague redefining) in Scientology was an endlessly promoted myth.
 
Lee #28 said:
yes. Around 1972 there was Natural Clear… Keyed out Clear…and even last lifetime Clear, I believe??
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yeah idk. don't remember anybody discussing it or attesting to anything without doing all the auditing through power. my friend that got in during the early 80's tried to attest without having done power release and whatever else she didn't do. i think that was when she blew. they wouldn't let her attest to clear.

according to veda, this was a late 70's thing.

Vintage Carmelo

Interesting. I attested to Dianetic Clear sometime in 1978 which is when the Clear numbers started to rise and my number was in in the mid 8000s although I don't recall the exact number. To me it was a something rather than a nothing. The numbers of "Dianetic Clears" started rapidly rising...
exscn2.net
 
vegan3 said:
yeah idk. don't remember anybody discussing it or attesting to anything without doing all the auditing through power. my friend that got in during the early 80's tried to attest without having done power release and whatever else she didn't do. i think that was when she blew. they wouldn't let her attest to clear.

according to veda, this was a late 70's thing.

Vintage Carmelo

Interesting. I attested to Dianetic Clear sometime in 1978 which is when the Clear numbers started to rise and my number was in in the mid 8000s although I don't recall the exact number. To me it was a something rather than a nothing. The numbers of "Dianetic Clears" started rapidly rising...
exscn2.net
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I was a natural clear, I FN'd at exams!
 
I M Dex said:
Actually, around 1979, the DCSI ("Dianetic Clear Special Intensive") was put together to settle uncertainty about being "clear" (nobody ever was, so you can imagine the cognitive dissonance). Needless to say, it didn't. Around 1982, in the face of the DCSI not working out very well, it was cancelled and replaced by the CCRD ("Clear Certainty Rundown"), which, while rebranded, was not substantially different in procedure or results. Of course, the real unending quandary was and is that the "state of clear", as described (and even with shifting watered down and vague redefining) in Scientology was an endlessly promoted myth.
Click to expand...

Yea....not a good memory about that exactly. But you are right....I think. I thought it was the other way around... Or there might have been a Rundown before DCSI and CCR....? I think that the DCSI was actually sold as an "Intensive." In other words....one price to rehab the state of clear....whether you used 12.5 hours or not? It was a relatively simply procedure, IMO...so kind of a ripoff.

That reminds me....more than a decade later....around the 1990's at AOLA doing the New Pro TRs Course with Clay Table Auditing one of my twins.....an older Lawyer and I were doing TRs and he had the most horrific blood shot red eyes I'd ever seen. He told me that he had gotten back from Flag and they had told him that he wasn't Clear. I think he was new OT 5 at the time.... OUCH.... .Yea....what a dog's breakfast that was..... But he was soldiering on......

Yea....I was very pissed, back then, that I could not do the old style bridge with Power and Power Plus.....that was not right. Not to mention the tons of processes in the Creation of Human Ability that were written about....

Anyway.....water under the bridge a long time ago...
 
I had an instinct that what Hubbard said about running power on "clears" was untrue, and for years I ran Power on "clears", literally hundreds of times without anything bad ever resulting. I came to know power processing probably better than anyone, after studying John Mcmasters' lectures, and then analyzing and penetrating the simplicity of it. As to the "confidential HCOB's" on power, I've studied them, they are mostly lies.
 
I M Dex said:
I had an instinct that what Hubbard said about running power on "clears" was untrue, and for years I ran Power on "clears", literally hundreds of times without anything bad ever resulting. I came to know power processing probably better than anyone, after studying John Mcmasters' lectures, and then analyzing and penetrating the simplicity of it. As to the "confidential HCOB's" on power, I've studied them, they are mostly lies.
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Wish I'd known you back when I wanted to do them..... That would have been great...

After I got kicked out.....I actually drove from LA up to Seattle to see that guy.....what was his name, Geoffrey something....that was well know for writing a book that basically had all the Scientology Processes...in it....

Had a brief meeting with him....but he kinda brushed me off. I guess he thought I was crazy or something. I wanted to do the Power Processes...

As usual....I had no money...so that was probably more the problem.
 
Lee #28 said:
Yea....not a good memory about that exactly. But you are right....I think. I thought it was the other way around... Or there might have been a Rundown before DCSI and CCR....? I think that the DCSI was actually sold as an "Intensive." In other words....one price to rehab the state of clear....whether you used 12.5 hours or not? It was a relatively simply procedure, IMO...so kind of a ripoff.
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The original DCSI circa 1979 was only FIVE hours, and was only given to people who tried to attest to clear and didn't make it. (Even then there were some.) I remember a girl I was on staff with getting it. After that she was allowed to attest. She must have been a "natural" or past life, as she'd had NO auditing at all in this lifetime.

The CCRD was given to everyone who attested clear, I think, but I was out the door by that time.
Lee #28 said:
After I got kicked out.....I actually drove from LA up to Seattle to see that guy.....what was his name, Geoffrey something....that was well know for writing a book that basically had all the Scientology Processes...in it....
Click to expand...
Filbert. "Excalibur Revisited."
 
pineapple said:
The original DCSI circa 1979 was only FIVE hours, and was only given to people who tried to attest to clear and didn't make it. (Even then there were some.) I remember a girl I was on staff with getting it. After that she was allowed to attest. She must have been a "natural" or past life, as she'd had NO auditing at all in this lifetime.

The CCRD was given to everyone who attested clear, I think, but I was out the door by that time.

Filbert. "Excalibur Revisited."
Click to expand...

Yes....that is his name. Thanks.

Is he still around?
 
The never-ending "clear or not" quandary. I remember, around 1978, Hubbard reshuffled the deck in his campaign to get everybody to start spending again and buy the "new OT levels" (NOT'S, NOT'S and more NOT'S, all of which evolved out of David Mayo's creative ad hoc "OT assist" to help Hubbard out of the deep pit of depression he was experiencing in 1977). Hubbard reverted to the position that "going clear on Dianetics" without power and the clearing course was again ok, and besides that, "technically, a few thetans have never been anything but clear". So the floodgates opened wide to thousands of Scientologists now attesting to "Dianetic Clear" and "natural Clear".
Personally, what still gives me the biggest belly laugh is all the Scientologists who decided that their not having wins on Dianetics proved that they were "already clear" (Because Dianetics works so great for everybody, but doesn't work at all for clears, even though Hubbard issued bulletins about successfully running "OT's" on Dianetics without any problems, but that was before he changed the rules, and any satisfactory sense you may have that you are whole as a spiritual being can only mean that you are or have arrived at "the state of clear", unless of course you lose it because you're "PTS", ...) :roflmao:
And then "the pendulum swung the other way" a year or two later, and thousands of "clears" were r-factored that they weren't really "clear" and needed their "lower bridge", and David Mayo as "Senior CS Int" toured the orgs for a "special event" to broadly announce this so that the road was paved to channel the masses through "D of P R-factors" and straight to the reg to pay up for more auditing.
Perhaps the question shouldn't have been "am I clear?", but instead, "what's my clear status this week?":roflmao:
 
I M Dex said:
The never-ending "clear or not" quandary. I remember, around 1978, Hubbard reshuffled the deck in his campaign to get everybody to start spending again and buy the "new OT levels" (NOT'S, NOT'S and more NOT'S, all of which evolved out of David Mayo's creative ad hoc "OT assist" to help Hubbard out of the deep pit of depression he was experiencing in 1977). Hubbard reverted to the position that "going clear on Dianetics" without power and the clearing course was again ok, and besides that, "technically, a few thetans have never been anything but clear". So the floodgates opened wide to thousands of Scientologists now attesting to "Dianetic Clear" and "natural Clear".
Personally, what still gives me the biggest belly laugh is all the Scientologists who decided that their not having wins on Dianetics proved that they were "already clear" (Because Dianetics works so great for everybody, but doesn't work at all for clears, even though Hubbard issued bulletins about successfully running "OT's" on Dianetics without any problems, but that was before he changed the rules, and any satisfactory sense you may have that you are whole as a spiritual being can only mean that you are or have arrived at "the state of clear", unless of course you lose it because you're "PTS", ...) :roflmao:
And then "the pendulum swung the other way" a year or two later, and thousands of "clears" were r-factored that they weren't really "clear" and needed their "lower bridge", and David Mayo as "Senior CS Int" toured the orgs for a "special event" to broadly announce this so that the road was paved to channel the masses through "D of P R-factors" and straight to the reg to pay up for more auditing.
Perhaps the question shouldn't have been "am I clear?", but instead, "what's my clear status this week?":roflmao:
Click to expand...
Hindsight being 20-20, in retrospect, how funny is it that back then, nobody openly questioned, with all these "Dianetic Clear Special Intensives", "Clear Certainty Rundowns" and definitions and re-definitions of the "state", how real and evident could it even be when it took all this work, time and money just to try to figure out whether or not you've got it? :bwahaha:
 
I M Dex said:
Of course, the real unending quandary was and is that the "state of clear", as described (and even with shifting watered down and vague redefining) in Scientology was an endlessly promoted myth
Click to expand...
Nobody ever achieved all the powers of Clear (specifically including perfect memory and not needing glasses) as originally described in DMSMH.
 
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