Is There A Base Population In The Scn. Cult That Would Exist Regardless Of What Happens?

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
Thinking more about this recently.

I know some long time scamatologists (Twenty to thirty years) that are just now moving onto the OT levels, or have moved onto them recently. People that, for whatever reason, had never made bridge progress until within the last ten years, or less. Just the result of whatever life events, income, jobs, marriages, etc. We know most of the people in our city's field of SCN's due of our level of involvement, at least those that were active when we were active. We still see a good number of them, and it's still true. I know for a fact that there are people UTR, because I now have spoken to a few. I know a few that won't be going back, but haven't looked online. So it's interesting to note that it's possible to be gone forever, as far as scamatology is concerned, but not to have read the truth in what is available to be read on the interwebs. I spoke to a guy that was declared in the early 2000's, that attested to OTVII back then, and has not visited the internet on this subject.

It appears that mostly there is the core group, a ton of 2nd gens, and a ton of aging veteran scamatologists. I don't see or hear many new names, and I am on the comm lines still.

The recent process of people getting "unplugged" and having time to review their lives, and scamatology, may have resulted in some not going back. I will be using my UTR lines to see if this is indeed an issue that we all hope and expect will be true.
 

The Oracle

Not the same Oracle from a decade ago
I had the thought the other day, after driving by the org and seeing five cars in the parking lot at a peak time of day, what number of people would stay involved almost regardless of what happens? I see active scamatologists almost every day. I have business relationships with active scamatologists. I have people that I am responsible for having gotten out. I have people that I am responsible for keeping them from going in. But I see people that are in now, that are totally, totally unaware of any of the truth about it, and would not at first blush accept anything bad. I actually have had people end relationships with me concerning how I left the cult. They could not "in good conscience" continue a relationship in any capacity. These people do not live in a vacuum without internet. They see something new all the time. Even with the filtering that I have hear about, you can't hardly go through a few weeks without some random damning tidbit somewhere. Some of these current people will peel off. I think I don't truly know what would happen if the dwarf disappeared. Would someone from the ranks step forward? Under someone's auspices, like Diana Hubbard?

But with such a war chest, how long could this go on? I think there are parishioners practicing snake handling in the southeast US than are active planetary scamatologists. 125 churches with people handling snakes? How many parishioners at each church? I will guarantee that anyone that has been there for awhile knows someone that lost a digit or worse!! Yet they still exist?


I see the same thing. Always the same cars in the lot and only a few families holding up each Org.

I often drive by the Org I used to go to and it is always the same people in there keeping Scientology working while their heads are in a bubble of delusion choosing not to look at the truth about Scientology, the founder and the leader. Many of them have committed criminal offenses by bankrupting each other, causing suicides by disconnection and shunning and shattering famillies. They do it with such certainty too. I can't imagine the few that are still in will ever leave. Scientology will always be around due to the clever "tech" L Ron Hubbard designed. It is a circle jerk of mind manipulation and self delusion.
 

The Oracle

Not the same Oracle from a decade ago
Thinking more about this recently.

I know some long time scamatologists (Twenty to thirty years) that are just now moving onto the OT levels, or have moved onto them recently. People that, for whatever reason, had never made bridge progress until within the last ten years, or less. Just the result of whatever life events, income, jobs, marriages, etc. We know most of the people in our city's field of SCN's due of our level of involvement, at least those that were active when we were active. We still see a good number of them, and it's still true. I know for a fact that there are people UTR, because I now have spoken to a few. I know a few that won't be going back, but haven't looked online. So it's interesting to note that it's possible to be gone forever, as far as scamatology is concerned, but not to have read the truth in what is available to be read on the interwebs. I spoke to a guy that was declared in the early 2000's, that attested to OTVII back then, and has not visited the internet on this subject.

It appears that mostly there is the core group, a ton of 2nd gens, and a ton of aging veteran scamatologists. I don't see or hear many new names, and I am on the comm lines still.

The recent process of people getting "unplugged" and having time to review their lives, and scamatology, may have resulted in some not going back. I will be using my UTR lines to see if this is indeed an issue that we all hope and expect will be true.
I looked up the people still in the Org I used to go to and they are all moving up the Bridge. They borrow money off of credit cards and then file bankruptcy. They borrow money from each other and never pay it back.

Hubbard designed a system where once you check in, you will never check out.

We should consider ourselves very lucky we were able to see through the "magick" and get ourselves out.
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
Thinking more about this recently.

I know some long time scamatologists (Twenty to thirty years) that are just now moving onto the OT levels, or have moved onto them recently. People that, for whatever reason, had never made bridge progress until within the last ten years, or less. Just the result of whatever life events, income, jobs, marriages, etc. We know most of the people in our city's field of SCN's due of our level of involvement, at least those that were active when we were active. We still see a good number of them, and it's still true. I know for a fact that there are people UTR, because I now have spoken to a few. I know a few that won't be going back, but haven't looked online. So it's interesting to note that it's possible to be gone forever, as far as scamatology is concerned, but not to have read the truth in what is available to be read on the interwebs. I spoke to a guy that was declared in the early 2000's, that attested to OTVII back then, and has not visited the internet on this subject.

It appears that mostly there is the core group, a ton of 2nd gens, and a ton of aging veteran scamatologists. I don't see or hear many new names, and I am on the comm lines still.

The recent process of people getting "unplugged" and having time to review their lives, and scamatology, may have resulted in some not going back. I will be using my UTR lines to see if this is indeed an issue that we all hope and expect will be true.
Without revealing too much of meself, I think there will always be a proportion of generational Scientologists.

When my parents died, there was a schism in the family.

Among me and my siblings In my family, there are those who have left, openly or under the blanket, and those who decided to remain. There are some who are able to stay in contact with those still in, and some who are disconnected. I am pretty certain, based on previous engagements, that some of us, and whatever offspring there is from their side, will remain in Scientology.

I don't think it has a lot to do with Scientology, but more to do with staying true to our parents purpose, strange as it may seem in a Scientology family, I suppose we were extremely co-dependent as a unit when we were younger.

I can see parts of this in some other Scientology families here in Sweden, where a part choose to remain, because they were brought up in it and don't know any better.

So I think, yes, there will always be a core, ever shrinking, yet with a tiny inflow of new children born and raised in Scientology.
 

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
Without revealing too much of meself, I think there will always be a proportion of generational Scientologists.

When my parents died, there was a schism in the family.

Among me and my siblings In my family, there are those who have left, openly or under the blanket, and those who decided to remain. There are some who are able to stay in contact with those still in, and some who are disconnected. I am pretty certain, based on previous engagements, that some of us, and whatever offspring there is from their side, will remain in Scientology.

I don't think it has a lot to do with Scientology, but more to do with staying true to our parents purpose, strange as it may seem in a Scientology family, I suppose we were extremely co-dependent as a unit when we were younger.

I can see parts of this in some other Scientology families here in Sweden, where a part choose to remain, because they were brought up in it and don't know any better.

So I think, yes, there will always be a core, ever shrinking, yet with a tiny inflow of new children born and raised in Scientology.
I like the "under the blanket" reference!! Under the radar, under the blanket, those beat under the influence!! I'm over it!!!

In a very daring move, I approached an old friend that had been in since 1995. We had been on staff together for some years, and were good friends, but he had moved to the other end of our broad country. I had trusted him to be a sane person in the island of insanity that we call orgs. (Funny how opposite this cult is to it's advertising) He attested to clear within the last couple years, as did his wife. They have two young children, ripe for the S.O. picking, in many, many ways that I cannot divulge here at the moment. The only reason that I started the "cycle" with him was because of his kids, and I told him so. We talked back and forth for a couple weeks, the covid started and I haven't talked since.

That whole 2nd gen thing really rankles me though. I was brought up a christian, and sort of inherited that as the family religion. I see families that have a certain breed of dogs continue that into the future, where the kids have that same breed. So many things passed down from gen to gen.
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
I like the "under the blanket" reference!! Under the radar, under the blanket, those beat under the influence!! I'm over it!!!

In a very daring move, I approached an old friend that had been in since 1995. We had been on staff together for some years, and were good friends, but he had moved to the other end of our broad country. I had trusted him to be a sane person in the island of insanity that we call orgs. (Funny how opposite this cult is to it's advertising) He attested to clear within the last couple years, as did his wife. They have two young children, ripe for the S.O. picking, in many, many ways that I cannot divulge here at the moment. The only reason that I started the "cycle" with him was because of his kids, and I told him so. We talked back and forth for a couple weeks, the covid started and I haven't talked since.

That whole 2nd gen thing really rankles me though. I was brought up a christian, and sort of inherited that as the family religion. I see families that have a certain breed of dogs continue that into the future, where the kids have that same breed. So many things passed down from gen to gen.
I really wish you the best of luck with your friend and seeing if you can get him to leave, even if I always felt that the old Scientology truth, you only leave when the heat is on you, very much applies. Maybe he is in that spot, if he is I hope he get the whole fams with him.

Yeah knowing that 2nd gens do get stuck in Scientology is one of those things that I feel very strong about. I wish there was a simple solution to that problem, but there isn't one.
 

The Oracle

Not the same Oracle from a decade ago
About the initial topic of the thread:
The people who are lest likely to leave seem to be of the following categories:
  • CMO, RTC, CST people. In general: those who are part of Dave's command structure that he created to replace the WDC and int management. They have certain privileges, an "esprit de corps" and a feeling of agency and power.
  • Older people (70s etc) who spent the vast majority of their lives in scientology, who have many family members inside. they are unwilling to risk getting disconnected from their grandchildren and are afraid they won't be able to make a living alone in the "big world" at their age.
  • People who experienced direct positive effects during processing. They might be 100% convinced the tech absolutely works and they want to stay inside because they feel that's the only place where they will get the correct OT levels.
  • A sub group of the above is people waiting for OT IX.
  • People who may think Dave and the current management sucks, but that the church is still delivering the correct tech and thus is the only organization that would save the world when push comes to shove.
  • A LOT of people are kept in by inertia. They won't leave unless they see other people around them leave. I think that's what happened back in 2006. So many people were leaving that a lot of those previously kept inside by inertia were taken away by the tide.

Speaking about SO - there is an esprit de corps and a general notion along the lines of:
- "We are rough and tough. Lots of stuff is not ok, but we can withstand anything, we can soldier on. I'm not a wuss, I won't quit. The job needs to get done and I'll get it done even if some people will get minced on the way there. Can't make an omelette without crushing some eggs."
So I think with most SO members when it comes to leaving we are looking at an all-or-nothing scenario. People stay until the moment they had enough of it so badly that they just catapult out of it.



I heard the numbers 71.000 and 78.000 back in the early 2000s. For the love of God, I cannot recall if they referred to just WUS, the whole of US, the whole of North America or the world. But I am pretty sure I recall hearing about numbers in the 70.000 range.
From late 2003 you could feel that there's more people leaving than coming in (including 2nd gen kids being joining staff). Starting early 2006 you could feel that the levee broke and that there's hordes of people leaving. Increasing number of cases and KRs were assigned to us, that I decommited as: "Guy already left the church. Pass this case to OSA if you want as an external. Inv considers the matter closed". This means that there was a very short time between guy being reporting and having him leave.
In winter 2006/2007 there were real feelings of concern being felt across the whole structure including FOLO, CMO etc.

I have no real data about current numbers, but I'd expect something in the 30.000 - 20.000 range.
Do all high ranking officials who leave Scientology speak in acronyms for the rest of their lives. I was a public and have no clue what FOLO, WUS,. CMO, etc stand for. Any chance you could lose the loaded language so us peons can understand?
 

The Oracle

Not the same Oracle from a decade ago
If I learned anything from Scientology,


The human mind can imagine any reality and believe in it despite evidence to the contrary staring them in the face because they BELIEVE the SOURCE.

Here's a very recent example ~~
Whatever the mind can believe, the mind can create and achieve.
Scientology is a lie.
It will disappear when the lie is known.
I think even Hubbard wrote about how to "as is" something.
He said a lie persists as long as people keep telling the lie and so on and so forth.
 

Karakorum

Well-known member
Do all high ranking officials who leave Scientology speak in acronyms for the rest of their lives. I was a public and have no clue what FOLO, WUS,. CMO, etc stand for. Any chance you could lose the loaded language so us peons can understand?
I'm sorry if my messages were a little on the hermetic side. I hope none of the peons were too annoyed ;)

WUS = Western US. A "continent" from the administrative point of view.
FOLO - Flag Operations Liaison Office
CMO = Commodore's Messengers Organization. It used to be a private communication service for Hubbard, but Dave Misacvige now uses it as how own chain of command line, which runs parallel to the formal chain of command. The formal chain is a facade, the real power is with Dave and his orders are transmitted primarily by RTC and CMO.
RTC- Religious Technology Center. The top management structure of scientology, with Dave at the helm.
CLO - Continental Liaison Office. Its pretty much continental managaement.

I would suggest the following link for a glossary of the various SO and scientology terms:
Scientology Glossary - A

Also, its a bit amusing to be claled a "high ranking official" - I was just with continental management, never with international management or in RTC.
 

The Oracle

Not the same Oracle from a decade ago
I'm sorry if my messages were a little on the hermetic side. I hope none of the peons were too annoyed ;)

WUS = Western US. A "continent" from the administrative point of view.
FOLO - Flag Operations Liaison Office
CMO = Commodore's Messengers Organization. It used to be a private communication service for Hubbard, but Dave Misacvige now uses it as how own chain of command line, which runs parallel to the formal chain of command. The formal chain is a facade, the real power is with Dave and his orders are transmitted primarily by RTC and CMO.
RTC- Religious Technology Center. The top management structure of scientology, with Dave at the helm.
CLO - Continental Liaison Office. Its pretty much continental managaement.

I would suggest the following link for a glossary of the various SO and scientology terms:
Scientology Glossary - A

Also, its a bit amusing to be claled a "high ranking official" - I was just with continental management, never with international management or in RTC.
You were higher than a degraded being public schlepp like me. Lol
 

Karakorum

Well-known member

The Oracle

Not the same Oracle from a decade ago
I have nothing to be proud of or brag about - rest assured.
I agree ... in a good way. You did not know. We all aided and abetted the criminal cult. We were duped. That "looking down" on public did a number on my head though. I could not figure out why people would not listen to me when I saw "outpoints" and tried to do the right thing by reporting them. Then, it dawned on me. They were under a spell and using Ron's Tech. "Any entheta or nattering - a person is hiding big crimesw. It is a form of gas lighting. Also a form of "thought stopping. Scientology is a science of Mind Fuckery.
 

Karakorum

Well-known member
I agree ... in a good way. You did not know.
I wish I could say that, but I knew some things. I knew about the invigilation and about sharing recordings or transcripts of confessionals for example.

I didn't know about a lot of other stuff. I never knew about the hole, I never knew of any pedophilia instances inside scientology. I never knew Dave was personally beating people up...
But I'm not in any way going to present myself as an innocent pure "victim", that simply wouldn't be true. I was part and parcel of the whole transmission line and a cog in the machine. Maybe I was an annoying cog that stuck out and would never budge the way they wanted, but I'm sure in the end tally I did far more "good" for the church than caused trouble. Otherwise they would have kicked me out.

That "looking down" on public did a number on my head though.
Yeah, that's a headspace I am not going to revisit. Not gonna be part of any caste system, inside or out. I firmly believe all our experiences are valuable and it doesn't matter if someone was a paying public, or a manager at the int base. If one just speaks out on twitter, or if one was on the show or the Theroux film.

I could not figure out why people would not listen to me when I saw "outpoints" and tried to do the right thing by reporting them. Then, it dawned on me. They were under a spell and using Ron's Tech. "Any entheta or nattering - a person is hiding big crimesw. It is a form of gas lighting. Also a form of "thought stopping. Scientology is a science of Mind Fuckery.
That's a clear-cut cult system. Stop critical thinking, stop any questioning of the system. Separate the "sheep from the goats", keep the "full of doubts" super busy until they get over it. Send them off to faraway places where they won't "infect" the rest.

Various cults do parts of that, but Scientology is one of the few cults that tries and does pretty much any control mechanism out there AT THE SAME TIME AND IN CONCERT.
 

UTR

Celestial Spork
I've seen people who were originally deemed security risks starting to be allowed to go to Flag. I don't know what's going on exactly, but I would guess Flag has loosened restrictions on a case-by-case basis, in order to keep people coming in.

Even if organized Scientology were to collapse one day (and frankly, I don't think that will happen any time soon), I don't think independent Scientology would ever completely disappear. There will always be people who latch onto illogical beliefs that give them hope.
 

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
We see more and more that there are a few "old timers" that somehow stay in, regardless of their personal financial disasters or all of the "redo this" admonitions of the CO$ (I always hated to see that CO$ when I was drinking the Kool-Aid, now here I am using it!!).

I looked at the financials of the churches the other day, really the question that I have is what are the revenue streams and income sources that make up the income.

I think that it is easiest to assign classes of income to "Years In", not looking at services versus tangible property donations, and take wild unfounded guesses as to the percentages allocated to each class. I am always game to embarrass myself with wild theories and supposition, now is no exception!

I am willing to take a stab at this because what the hell!!!


Duration in SCN (Not applicable to 2nd gens, I would think. 2nd gens have a different circumstance, maybe one could verify for us)


Class A : 0 - 1 year in. So new that they are still agog. Maybe a friend, love interest or co-worker got them to look. Total newbies. Money and cost issues haven't fully sunk in yet. They are "Wait and See", or "WOO-HOO!"

Class B : 2 - 5 years in. It got under their skin, and they are in it too see where it goes. Money starting to go out towards this. They probably have received a KR or written one. Seemingly would have had to been totally blind to the "entheta" on the interwebs to be here.

Class C : 6 - 10 years in. Pretty stiff Kool-Aid drinkers in this crowd.

Class D : 11 - 19 years in. It would take a pretty big speed bump to derail this crowd, but it can be done.

Class E : 20+ years. It would take something mighty big and serious to get these guys off the rails.

I was thinking that the heavy financial lifting comes from Class D and Class E types. This not looking at anything other than how long they have been around.

Whatever your idea of the number of "Active Scientologists" is on this planet, from 15,000 to 35,000, the idea that jumps out is that the income that supports the church is coming from a percentage that is in the group of people that have been around from eleven plus years.

The internet has done a job at making those earlier classes A, B & C be a smaller number now than they have ever been historically.

You could argue that the age of social media has made it harder to get wrapped up in scamatology, because of the savvy of the younger generation.

So the support comes from an aging base, another activity could be guessing the age median of this group.

All of these wild guesses on my part.
 

TrevAnon

Big list researcher
A while ago I did an estimate of the number of members ever (200,000 - 300,000, about 100,000 at the peak)


I think Tony recently estimated the current number of scientologists at 15,000. (Can't find it at the moment.)

That would make sense. He also had a 20,000 number but that's from 2013, which is before Going Clear and The Aftermath.

This means we now have about 7.5 to 5% of the members ever still in.

(As for the acronyms: I was never in and I am actually scared of myself that I know so many (not all) of them. :D )
 

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
A while ago I did an estimate of the number of members ever (200,000 - 300,000, about 100,000 at the peak)


I think Tony recently estimated the current number of scientologists at 15,000. (Can't find it at the moment.)

That would make sense. He also had a 20,000 number but that's from 2013, which is before Going Clear and The Aftermath.

This means we now have about 7.5 to 5% of the members ever still in.

(As for the acronyms: I was never in and I am actually scared of myself that I know so many (not all) of them. :D )
I love the work that others have done in estimating how many are in and active.

My question now is how many would stay in REGARDLESS of what happened? We have friends that are in and they are broke, overworked, abused, etc. I just don't see them leaving. Most of these people have been in twenty plus, maybe thirty years.
 
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