If Dianetics was Hypnosis, how come all the people who first got Dianetics auditing aren't still involved?

[Riddick]

This latest interview by Chris Shelton of somebody who recently left, guess what she didn't read dianetics but yet still somehow got involved, her mom did and read dianetics and SOS, it's at the beginning of the video, 3:30 mark and even Chris says he didn't read dianetics.

Chris Shelton interviews Katherine Olson, who only escaped Scientology’s Sea Org last year | The Underground Bunker (tonyortega.org)

Question to ask oneself, and like I said earlier and elsewhere lots of staff never got auditing. So the hypnosis theory doesn't sit right with me. What was it to get people involved?

 

[marra]

I have the same training as you, @marra: I was an interned IV C/S and interned NED C/S. When I left in 1981 the term Grad V wasn't in use yet, but it's the same stuff.

As you must remember, LRH says dianetics and scn are two completely different kinds of auditing: In scn you audit the pc in present time (supposedly); in dns the pc is NOT in present time, he's "returned" on the time track, in "dianetic reverie," which is a (usually) light hypnotic trance. If your dianetic pc's were in PT and not in a trance, I don't think you were doing it right.

I certainly wasn't aware that I was hypnotizing anyone either. And if I'd been told I was I'd have denied it, though I knew nothing about hypnosis at the time. LRH says it's not hypnosis, after all.

The role of the auditor in hypnotizing the pc is minimal. He only has to say the usual things and the pc, who knows what's expected of him, willingly does most of it himself.

You and I have disagreed about hypnosis in scn before and I think we'll probably continue to do so. I'm not going to knock myself out trying to change your mind. I'm not on a crusade here.

I still think there is a confusion which I was trying to address. What Hubbard did in the early days with Dianetics may or may not have been hypnosis. But he later introduced Scientology auditing, Dianetics became New Era Dianetics and was added to the Scientology Bridge and therefore auditors who were trained to audit processes up to Grade IV did not have to learn any new type of auditing to audit Dianetics on Grade V. It was just another set of processes with the same set of auditing rules that they had already learned. The old days of "Dianetic reverie" did not apply.

So, yes if someone is talking about Hubbard in the early days of Dianetics then hypnosis may have been used. But since scientology came along I don't think it is relevant to talk about hypnosis.

 

[pineapple]

It was the Comm Course that hooked me. It actually did what it claimed: improved my ability to communicate, with a resultant big boost in self-confidence. That's what convinced me that "Scientology Works" (popular slogan then) and made me want to go on.

Of course, I think hypnosis can also play a role on the Comm Course. While on the course, I had what I then considered the most intense mystical experience of my life.

I was doing TR-0 with a staff member, a middle-aged woman who was an OT and Cl VI auditor. Her face started to change rapidly, and I saw a cascade of different faces, one after the other, many, many of them. I got the idea that I was seeing all the different people that she'd been in her past lives, and that she was deliberately showing this to me, making me see it because she wanted me to know that scn was the real deal, that it was all true!

I was in awe, and also somewhat afraid. This surpassed anything I'd ever experienced on drugs. (I'd taken LSD about 75 times over the previous 6 or 7 years.) I'd been reading Carlos Castaneda recently and it was like something in one of his books.

I don't know how long the cascade of faces went on. After a while it stopped and it was just "normal" TR-0. When we finished the drill I told her what I'd seen. She said, "Sounds like you were picking up on my track pictures," and gave a cackling, witch-like laugh. This confirmed my suspicion that she had intentionally made me see what I'd seen.

I think now that this experience was probably brought on by the fixated attention, that it was a sort of sensory deprivation phenomenon. I never again had such vivid hallucinations while doing TR's. I think my brain eventually learned to adjust to it.

Also I was very impressed by OT's at that time and thought they might really have "powers" like the ability to read minds or make me see things. So the woman I was doing the drill with had great "altitude" as far as I was concerned.

I'd definitely say I was hypnotized there. I was certainly in a trance.

 

[pineapple]

I still think there is a confusion which I was trying to address. What Hubbard did in the early days with Dianetics may or may not have been hypnosis. But he later introduced Scientology auditing, Dianetics became New Era Dianetics and was added to the Scientology Bridge and therefore auditors who were trained to audit processes up to Grade IV did not have to learn any new type of auditing to audit Dianetics on Grade V. It was just another set of processes with the same set of auditing rules that they had already learned. The old days of "Dianetic reverie" did not apply.

So, yes if someone is talking about Hubbard in the early days of Dianetics then hypnosis may have been used. But since scientology came along I don't think it is relevant to talk about hypnosis.

So you're saying that Hubbard "may have" used hypnosis early on (may have? He said he did!) but later decided to dispense with it. Why would he do that? Because he cared so much about our self-determinism and didn't really want to control us?

Have you watched this video by Jon Atack, "Never Trust A Hypnotist" (Hubbard's words)? Jon goes through loads of things Hubbard said about hypnosis in the early days, 1950-'51. It's long, about 2 hours, but you can watch it in segments if you want. I recommend it.

 

[pineapple]

Whoops, sorry. Here's that video again.

 

[mimsey borogrove]

Question to ask oneself.

Ah? Since they were mostly adults in the 50's when dianetics came out, I'd guess they have picked up new bodies by now. When Frank Geltman died of a heart attack in the 60's ( he was an OT 3 mission holder) it made me wonder about the claims that Scientology was pushing about achieving immortality. Why would an OT die if he were OT?

Mimsey

 

[Bill]

I still think there is a confusion which I was trying to address. What Hubbard did in the early days with Dianetics may or may not have been hypnosis. But he later introduced Scientology auditing, Dianetics became New Era Dianetics and was added to the Scientology Bridge and therefore auditors who were trained to audit processes up to Grade IV did not have to learn any new type of auditing to audit Dianetics on Grade V. It was just another set of processes with the same set of auditing rules that they had already learned. The old days of "Dianetic reverie" did not apply.

So, yes if someone is talking about Hubbard in the early days of Dianetics then hypnosis may have been used. But since scientology came along I don't think it is relevant to talk about hypnosis.

That was my experience with Dianetics. It certainly wasn't hypnosis - I got some Dianetics after a bunch of Grades, so it was the later version of Dianetics. It was boring but not hypnosis.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

<snip> So the woman I was doing the drill with had great "altitude" as far as I was concerned.

I'd definitely say I was hypnotized there. I was certainly in a trance.

OTs had a certain altitude for me, perhaps awe, when I was young and naive.
Embarrassing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't know but a parallel experience could be the Christian church and being
served holy Communion. A lot of that experience is all about altitude too.

As I recall from my youth, you enter the sacred place, that holy church, and feel
a sense of reverence and respect. The priests are treated with a special altitude,
even though they're just normal humans like you and me. (So we've learned.)
And the Communion itself is supposedly a special life-altering moment.

So much of the whole experience is built upon one's own cherished beliefs and the
altitude you've imagined and created in your mind. So be it with Hubbard, Sci and
many other religions and belief systems.* You create the revered persons and places.

No offense meant to beliefs and believers.


*Think even Tony Robbins and Grant Cardone, LOL. Both are revered by some of their
followers. People really get whipped up in a quasi-religious frenzy at their events.

 

[Type4_PTS]

This latest interview by Chris Shelton of somebody who recently left, guess what she didn't read dianetics but yet still somehow got involved, her mom did and read dianetics and SOS, it's at the beginning of the video, 3:30 mark and even Chris says he didn't read dianetics.

Chris Shelton interviews Katherine Olson, who only escaped Scientology’s Sea Org last year | The Underground Bunker (tonyortega.org)

Question to ask oneself, and like I said earlier and elsewhere lots of staff never got auditing. So the hypnosis theory doesn't sit right with me. What was it to get people involved?

That Katherine Olson or so many others never read Dianetics and yet still got involved is completely irrelevant. You seem to be implying that that invalidates the claim that there was any use of hypnosis. But it does nothing of the sort. Hubbard gave the CoS many different techniques that were designed to recruit and retain members. His use of rhetoric that you mentioned on a couple of occasions was part of it but your claim that "it was all rhetoric" ignores so many important cult-building tactics that Hubbard used. Someone could be the very best in the universe at using rhetoric but if he omitted most of the other standard cult-building tactics then his attempt at building a cult would fail miserably.

Cult leaders tend to use the same general tactics to recruit and retain members and Hubbard was no exception. In Steve Hassan's BITE Model of Authoritarian Control he's got 4 general categories of methods that cults use, and Hubbard used methods in each of the categories.

Steven Hassan’s BITE Model of Authoritarian Control

BITE Model of Authoritarian Control - Freedom of Mind Resource Center

Discover the foundational principles of psychological freedom with our BITE Model PDF. Dr. Steven Hassan's pioneering framework offers insights into controlling behaviors and thoughts. Download now to explore strategies for personal empowerment and understanding undue influence. Perfect for...

freedomofmind.com

Excerpt:
Dissertation published January 2021: “The BITE Model of Authoritarian Control: Undue Influence, Thought Reform, Brainwashing, Mind Control, Trafficking and the Law” <The BITE Model of Authoritarian Control: Undue Influence, Thought Reform, Brainwashing, Mind Control, Trafficking and the Law - ProQuest

Many people think of mind control as an ambiguous, mystical process that cannot be defined in concrete terms. In reality, mind control refers to a specific set of methods and techniques, such as hypnosis or thought-stopping, that influence how a person thinks, feels, and acts.

Based on research and theory by Robert Jay Lifton, Margaret Singer, Edgar Schein, Louis Jolyon West, and others who studied brainwashing in Maoist China as well as cognitive dissonance theory by Leon Festinger, Steven Hassan developed the BITE Model to describe the specific methods that cults use to recruit and maintain control over people. “BITE” stands for Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotional control.

<snip> Full post at link above.

Here's one of the 4 categories - Information Control. Does any of it sound familiar from the Scientology days? If none of this was done how would that impact the ability of the CoS to recruit and retain members?

 

[ILove2Lurk]

Does any of it sound familiar from the Scientology days?

Yes! Also, from current media-politics. Almost identical in some respects.

Fortunately, I was inoculated from future infections somewhat by my sci experience.

 

[Pepin]

Question to ask oneself.

Hypnosis is implanting. Auditing is removal of implants

 

[Bill]

Hypnosis is implanting. Auditing is removal of implants

When did auditing ever do that?

 

[Riddick]

Whoops, sorry. Here's that video again.

I luv the discussion between you and Marra, and Ilove2lurk, and I pondered on those things as well, the question still stands in my post title, where are the people who first got involved? One would think they would still be involved as they were supposedly hypnotized. So I asked myself who were the original people that first got dianetics auditing and are they still involved?

I found John Galusha of Identics & Mike Goldstein fame was involved so I read everything I could find on that. John G was a expert at Dianetics but left and wanted nothing to do with it until Goldstein found him and one can read the story on ESMB (per Mike Goldstein).

But one day a poster on ESMB mentioned that when he read the Heinlein letters that convinced him, that was Afaceinthecrowd. Tony O even made a post about the Heinlein letters. But, I researched further in the Heinlein letters and found the original letters between Campbell and Heinlein during the development of dianetics were much more fruitful for info so I purchased them & read them, although not easy to piece together timeline. I discovered the first dianetics auditor was actually Campbell auditing his niece or kid, I forget now w/o looking up.

I was also trying to research who were the 270 or whatever the number is that Hubbard mentions in dianetics that he cleared, That book also says any 2 people can clear themselves using dianetics. The only thing I could find was that what I found in the heinlein letters between hubbard & heinlein and between campbell & heinlein, they were all connected during the 1950 when the book was to be published. It turns out after Campbell was giving auditing but the person never went clear, nor did campbell go clear by getting auditing by hubbard. The whole thing was rhetoric. Heinlien even asked Campbell if his body problem was handled, and he said no. Campbell then a year or so later from 1950 said Hubbard got it wrong and went off and did his thing.

Now, I have to tell you, I created many threads on ESMB to explain this all under Gib, and now all of you so called well known members have not read or researched what I posted back in the day. I even told Tony O about it and Karen & Jeffery, even sent materials, kind of pisses me off, but not really. I have read Jon Atack, Madman, etc, lots of others. You name it, I probably read it or saw the interview on you tube, etc. So I'm posting again my research with my latest questions and hoping others will question the same thing.

My research still stands in my eyes, in the end from the get go, it was all rhetoric. Hubbard created ethos, pathos and logos in his dianetics and then later scientology to persuade people. Now, just so you know, Jon Atack, Veda, Chris Shelton, Karen, Mike Rinder, etc and others have NOT done or gone further into the past timeline or researched like I have, sorry to say this, but they missing info.

What Are Ethos, Pathos, & Logos? Examples & How To Use Them (thesaurus.com)

"The terms ethos, pathos, and logos and the theory of their use can be traced back to ancient Greece to the philosophy of Aristotle. Aristotle used these three concepts in his explanations of rhetoric, or the art of influencing the thought and conduct of an audience. For Aristotle, the three modes of persuasion specifically referred to the three major parts of an argument: the speaker (ethos), the argument itself (logos), and the audience (pathos). In particular, Aristotle focused on the speaker’s character, the logic and reason presented by an argument, and the emotional impact the argument had on an audience. "

"the art of influencing the thought and conduct of an audience." and that's what Hubbard did. You became a scientologists because hubbard influenced you to become one, with all his ethos, pathos and logos, and not hypnosis or any other thing..

 

[marra]

It was the Comm Course that hooked me. It actually did what it claimed: improved my ability to communicate, with a resultant big boost in self-confidence. That's what convinced me that "Scientology Works" (popular slogan then) and made me want to go on.

Of course, I think hypnosis can also play a role on the Comm Course. While on the course, I had what I then considered the most intense mystical experience of my life.

I was doing TR-0 with a staff member, a middle-aged woman who was an OT and Cl VI auditor. Her face started to change rapidly, and I saw a cascade of different faces, one after the other, many, many of them. I got the idea that I was seeing all the different people that she'd been in her past lives, and that she was deliberately showing this to me, making me see it because she wanted me to know that scn was the real deal, that it was all true!

I was in awe, and also somewhat afraid. This surpassed anything I'd ever experienced on drugs. (I'd taken LSD about 75 times over the previous 6 or 7 years.) I'd been reading Carlos Castaneda recently and it was like something in one of his books.

I don't know how long the cascade of faces went on. After a while it stopped and it was just "normal" TR-0. When we finished the drill I told her what I'd seen. She said, "Sounds like you were picking up on my track pictures," and gave a cackling, witch-like laugh. This confirmed my suspicion that she had intentionally made me see what I'd seen.

I think now that this experience was probably brought on by the fixated attention, that it was a sort of sensory deprivation phenomenon. I never again had such vivid hallucinations while doing TR's. I think my brain eventually learned to adjust to it.

Also I was very impressed by OT's at that time and thought they might really have "powers" like the ability to read minds or make me see things. So the woman I was doing the drill with had great "altitude" as far as I was concerned.

I'd definitely say I was hypnotized there. I was certainly in a trance.

I had exactly the same experience in a scientology auditing session. The auditor was giving the command "Look at me. Who am I?" and every time I looked at his face it changed into someone else. I would answer "You are .........." and he would repeat the command. Eventually his face stopped changing and when he repeated the command I said "You are my auditor". He then indicated that my needle was floating and that was the end of that process.

I knew at the time that he was running this process because I was having a hard time concentrating on the auditing because of my involvement with this auditor outside of session. I needed to concentrate on the session rather than him as a person. That's why the c/s ordered this process to be run and I knew that at the time and it worked.

Was I in a trance? What does it matter? I knew where I was and what I was doing and why I was doing it. I found it quite entertaining.

 

[pineapple]

The woman I was doing TR-0 with that day, taken a few years earlier, standing two to the right of Yvonne Jentzsch.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Adding to my original answer above during an earlier exchange:

I believe that Book 1 Dianetics DOES include some hypnosis. I've seen the opinions of professional hypnotists who examined Dianetics and for me what they wrote was pretty convincing.

who were the people that wrote were pretty convincing to you? Specifics please.

Lafayette Ronald Hubbard

The specifics have been acknowledged by Hubbard himself.

 

[Zertel]

It was the Comm Course that hooked me. It actually did what it claimed: improved my ability to communicate, with a resultant big boost in self-confidence. That's what convinced me that "Scientology Works" (popular slogan then) and made me want to go on.

Of course, I think hypnosis can also play a role on the Comm Course. While on the course, I had what I then considered the most intense mystical experience of my life.

I was doing TR-0 with a staff member, a middle-aged woman who was an OT and Cl VI auditor. Her face started to change rapidly, and I saw a cascade of different faces, one after the other, many, many of them. I got the idea that I was seeing all the different people that she'd been in her past lives, and that she was deliberately showing this to me, making me see it because she wanted me to know that scn was the real deal, that it was all true!

I was in awe, and also somewhat afraid. This surpassed anything I'd ever experienced on drugs. (I'd taken LSD about 75 times over the previous 6 or 7 years.) I'd been reading Carlos Castaneda recently and it was like something in one of his books.

I don't know how long the cascade of faces went on. After a while it stopped and it was just "normal" TR-0. When we finished the drill I told her what I'd seen. She said, "Sounds like you were picking up on my track pictures," and gave a cackling, witch-like laugh. This confirmed my suspicion that she had intentionally made me see what I'd seen.

I think now that this experience was probably brought on by the fixated attention, that it was a sort of sensory deprivation phenomenon. I never again had such vivid hallucinations while doing TR's. I think my brain eventually learned to adjust to it.

Also I was very impressed by OT's at that time and thought they might really have "powers" like the ability to read minds or make me see things. So the woman I was doing the drill with had great "altitude" as far as I was concerned.

I'd definitely say I was hypnotized there. I was certainly in a trance.

You took 75 LSD trips? Wow. I only took about a dozen but I can still relate.

It probably didn't alter my DNA but my Genetic Entity probably didn't know what was coming at it.
.
.
(joke)

 

[Zertel]

Someone who did the original OT8 said Hubbard wanted OTs to work on producing genetically pure bodies. I guess he wanted some good choices available for when he comes back.

Scn certainly covered a broad range of topics, everything from past lives to assigning the autonomic nervous system a personality. I could go to a Psychic Faire and have a discussion with anyone about just about anything paranormal or supernatural.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Oh, I don't know Gibby, was it really rhetoric or was it his mellifluous voice? Could have been his red hair was mightily influencing the minions.

 

[Veda]

Someone who did the original OT8 said Hubbard wanted OTs to work on producing genetically pure bodies. I guess he wanted some good choices available for when he comes back.

Scn certainly covered a broad range of topics, everything from past lives to assigning the autonomic nervous system a personality. I could go to a Psychic Faire and have a discussion with anyone about just about anything paranormal or supernatural.

I think you mean the 1980 "Lucifer" OT 8 ("theory," more like rambling) that was briefly tossed in with Ray (then senior C/S int) Mithoff's OT 8. Ray's OT 8 had both theory and practical and it constituted an an actual level, although not from Hubbard.

The original OT 8 was from the late 1960s and, IIRC, consisted of a page of theory about failed purposes, and never existed as a level, even though it was sold, and used, for years, to recruit people, and convince them to permit Scientology to assert and maintain dominion over their thoughts and loyalties, and bank accounts, and even their children.

The 1980 OT 8 appears to have been the inspiration for Bill Robertson's OT 8, the Ron's Orgs OT 8, called EXCALIBUR:

"Excalibur [Ron's Org OT 8] - handle the most secret and ancient barriers to OT, an organized attempt on the seventh dynamic to force one to conform to a lower state of awareness."

​

Link to the most recent reference to Ron's orgs OT 8 on ESMBR, this by (non responsive) new ESMBR member DavidStLawrence.

It's interesting that the so called higher OT levels go in an opposite direction than initially envisioned, or at least promised. The promise was EXTROVERSION and vivid reality ("Total Freedom," "exteriorization with full perception," etc.), but what is delivered in INTROVERSION and significance.

Really, not much different than the significance of a stereotypical psychoanalytical session, but with the intangible haziness of an old fashioned seance.

Very different from the bold promises made by Hubbard during the 1950s.

But during the 1960s Hubbard down-trended and introverted and took Scientologists with him.

*​

Aleister Crowley wrote in his 1911 Batrachophrenoboocosmachia (which - as with his Naples Arrangement, which Hubbard re-wrote as his The Factors - was derived from earlier material): "B. It is assumed that he has conquered the elementary difficulties of Dharana, and is able to prevent mental pictures from altering shape, size, and color against his will."

That, as I recall, is similar to what is in Hubbard's 1957/1958 Clear procedure booklet.

Crowley's 1911 Batra is the antecedent of Hubbard's 1954 Grand Tour.

Link to Batra. (Note: the word "Nuit" means infinity.)

Quoting John Symonds and Kenneth Grant, who were editors of some of Crowley's writings:

"It [the above linked collection of 110 year old processes] deals with the magical practice of expanding consciousness to the stars and planets... Consciousness - so the theory goes - is exalted to infinity by this method."

But no, no extroversion was to be.

"OT" Scientologists are, instead, spending their time concerned with their "fleas."

​