If Dianetics was Hypnosis, how come all the people who first got Dianetics auditing aren't still involved?

[Zertel]

I think you mean the 1980 "Lucifer" OT 8 ("theory," more like rambling) that was briefly tossed in with Ray (then senior C/S int) Mithoff's OT 8. Ray's OT 8 had both theory and practical and it constituted an an actual level, although not from Hubbard.

The original OT 8 was from the late 1960s and, IIRC, consisted of a page of theory about failed purposes, and never existed as a level, even though it was sold, and used, for years, to recruit people, and convince them to permit Scientology to assert and maintain dominion over their thoughts and loyalties, and bank accounts, and even their children.

The 1980 OT 8 appears to have been the inspiration for Bill Robertson's OT 8, the Ron's Orgs OT 8, called EXCALIBUR:

"Excalibur [Ron's Org OT 8] - handle the most secret and ancient barriers to OT, an organized attempt on the seventh dynamic to force one to conform to a lower state of awareness."

​

Link to the most recent reference to Ron's orgs OT 8 on ESMBR, this by (non responsive) new ESMBR member DavidStLawrence.

It's interesting that the so called higher OT levels go in an opposite direction than initially envisioned, or at least promised. The promise was EXTROVERSION and vivid reality ("Total Freedom," "exteriorization with full perception," etc.), but what is delivered in INTROVERSION and significance.

Really, not much different than the significance of a stereotypical psychoanalytical session, but with the intangible haziness of an old fashioned seance.

Very different from the bold promises made by Hubbard during the 1950s.

But during the 1960s Hubbard down-trended and introverted and took Scientologists with him.

*​

Aleister Crowley wrote in his 1911 Batrachophrenoboocosmachia (which - as with his Naples Arrangement, which Hubbard re-wrote as his The Factors - was derived from earlier material): "B. It is assumed that he has conquered the elementary difficulties of Dharana, and is able to prevent mental pictures from altering shape, size, and color against his will."

That, as I recall, is similar to what is in Hubbard's 1957/1958 Clear procedure booklet.

Crowley's 1911 Batra is the antecedent of Hubbard's 1954 Grand Tour.

Link to Batra. (Note: the word "Nuit" means infinity.)

Quoting John Symonds and Kenneth Grant, who were editors of some of Crowley's writings:

"It [the above linked collection of 110 year old processes] deals with the magical practice of expanding consciousness to the stars and planets... Consciousness - so the theory goes - is exalted to infinity by this method."

But no, no extroversion was to be.

"OT" Scientologists are, instead, spending their time concerned with their "fleas."

​

The person who did the Lucifer Version which I apparently inaccurately called Original OT8 was George M. White. He went into detail on it years ago on Rathbun's blog and it was also once a topic on Ortega's blog. He and over 100 others did it on the Freewinds (?) around 1987 (?). It caused a big flap and was soon withdrawn. George said a lot of the auditing he did on it came from History of Man so it might be his impression that Hubbard (assuming it was Hubbard who wrote it) wanted OTs to go off the Theta Trail and do work on The Body or Genetic Entity. That's just from memory so I'm not saying it's accurate.

George said he "blew a ton of charge" while auditing the "incidents" in History of Man so I guess you can add that to the discussion of hypnosis, trance or pre suggestion in auditing. Lol

Like most people George has now discarded most of what he once thought was factual in scn and particularly on the OT levels.

As a bit of justification, most people give credence to Darwinian evolution so it's not too far fetched that some people would go along with the idea of genetic memories impinging on us as a possibility to investigate. Hubbard took it a step further and even gave it a name, the Genetic Entity. Wow

 

[PirateAndBum]

It was summer of 88. I was o the ship with George when he was doing OT 8

 

[Zertel]

It was summer of 88. I was o the ship with George when he was doing OT 8

I guess in 1988 the release of OT VIII would have been a very big deal.

Since George had theoretically run out all the History of Man incidents and might now be free of passing on genetic defects, I suggested to him on Marty's blog that he find a reputable sperm bank to store some of his sperm for future scn research. It got a couple laughs.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

George said he "blew a ton of charge" while auditing the "incidents" in History of Man so I guess you can add that to the discussion of hypnosis, trance or pre suggestion in auditing. Lol

that sounds more like cathartic release. there's a variety of phenomenon that could be at work at various points in auditing and processing.

As a bit of justification, most people give credence to Darwinian evolution so it's not too far fetched that some people would go along with the idea of genetic memories impinging on us as a possibility to investigate. Hubbard took it a step further and even gave it a name, the Genetic Entity. Wow

i think the GE has more to do with LRH taking stab at confronting the reality that we have a lot of innate or instinctual behaviors and responses -- you might say kind of the mental equivalent of the knee jerk reflex doctors trigger with that little hammer -- but that was irreconcilable with his theory of the the mind being an infinitely reprogrammable computer, so it conveniently was more or less dropped. the reality of things like that, including cognitive biases, is well established now. speculative theories that we might have something like a species or genetic memory are a different matter, necessarily only to describe more elusive possible phenomenon like the tiny fraction of seeming past life memories that can't be readily explained by false memory system (often resulting from trance states, and induced by suggestions like 'go back further' commands).

it seems to me that one of the lures of scientology was the promise of a simple single explanation for life's mysteries, like engrams stored in a computer-like bank. it didn't work in scientology, and it doesn't work to explain scientology, either.

 

[pineapple]

Like I said in my above post, if John Campbell was Hubbard's first auditor, and Hubbard audited him, why didn't Campbell continue to follow hubbard? How come? Was Campbell hypnotized? I think not. Think about it. Hubbard thru his rhetoric convinced Campbell he had solved world problems and the answer was dianetics which Campbell fell for but later rejected. Think about it. Campbell was Hubbard's first dianetics auditor but never produced a clear. Think about that..

@Riddick, you're still making the assumption that the use of hypnosis would guarantee permanent allegiance to Hubbard and dianetics. You seem to have a "held-down seven" in this area. There's no basis for this assumption. Hypnosis normally wears off over time.

Hypnosis definitely was used in the early days of dianetics. Don Rogers, Campbell, J. A. Winter, even Hubbard himself, have all said so. This is a fact.

Campbell and Winter resigned from the HDRF because they realized Hubbard had exaggerated the potential of dianetics -- no clears, etc. -- and also because they were fed up with Hubbard's autocratic attitude and refusal to adopt a more scientific approach.

I recommend Winter's book "A Doctor's Report on Dianetics." The book is anti-Hubbard, not anti-dianetics. Winter still thinks dianetics has potential benefit. He hadn't given up on dianetics, at least not at this point.



As for Campbell, he and his first wife Doña divorced and he married J. A. Winter's sister. According to Perry Chapdelaine, Sr., Campbell and his new wife continued to practice 1950-style dianetics on each other for the rest of their marriage. If this is true, Campbell hadn't completely given up on dianetics either.

(Perry is best known for "clearing" the infamous Ron Howes. He was in his 90's when he made the claim about Campbell, so maybe he was a little confused. It's in one of his videos, I don't remember which one. These are pretty interesting, in any case.)

 

[Zertel]

that sounds more like cathartic release. there's a variety of phenomenon that could be at work at various points in auditing and processing.



i think the GE has more to do with LRH taking stab at confronting the reality that we have a lot of innate or instinctual behaviors and responses -- you might say kind of the mental equivalent of the knee jerk reflex doctors trigger with that little hammer -- but that was irreconcilable with his theory of the the mind being an infinitely reprogrammable computer, so it conveniently was more or less dropped. the reality of things like that, including cognitive biases, is well established now. speculative theories that we might have something like a species or genetic memory are a different matter, necessarily only to describe more elusive possible phenomenon like the tiny fraction of seeming past life memories that can't be readily explained by false memory system (often resulting from trance states, and induced by suggestions like 'go back further' commands).

it seems to me that one of the lures of scientology was the promise of a simple single explanation for life's mysteries, like engrams stored in a computer-like bank. it didn't work in scientology, and it doesn't work to explain scientology, either.

Scientifically speaking there is no such thing as a Genetic Entity, only the autonomic nervous system. A genetic "entity' is from Hubbard's imagination or maybe other sources he came across along the way.

When George mentioned blowing tons of charge I'm sure he was referring to Long Falls or Long Fall Blowdowns which are extra long falls of the e-meter needle. As often mentioned the e-meter reacts on imaginative as well as real incidents. By the time George or anyone else gets to OT8 they have a well developed ability to come up with near instantaneous unfiltered imaginative "pictures" in response to an auditing command or procedure. Regarding the topic of hypnosis I don't think that has much to do with it, only a mental ability if you want to call it that which is developed over time with practice. On the other hand some people might say that when you go into a formal auditing session, solo or otherwise, you are automatically allowing yourself to go into an altered state.

There are unlimited stories about people overcoming the normal autonomic nervous system responses through practice. I once watched a TV show where some monks in a high mountain retreat were comfortably bathing in ice cold water. I bet their GE wasn't too happy about it the first time they jumped in. (joke)

There are similar stories in Native American lore with Indian Masters able to traverse vast distances over hostile terrain for days without food or water, having first overcome mind over matter and then eventually Spirit over mind.

 

[Veda]

After an excited Pat Broeker gave David Mayo the Lucifer OT 8 in 1980, Mayo read it and discarded it. He was supposed to do something with it, and make it into an actual level, but did nothing.

As far as I know, Ray Mithoff also did nothing with it. It was briefly appended to his "New" OT 8, but was a non sequitur.

The only person who seems to have done anything with the 1980 OT 8 was Bill Robertson of Ron's Orgs.

Circa 1987 "New" OT 8 is something Mithoff concocted because he had to produce something that could be called OT 8, because it had been promised and people were waiting and expecting it.

The G.E. is a term for the animal soul.

 

[Riddick]

@Riddick, you're still making the assumption that the use of hypnosis would guarantee permanent allegiance to Hubbard and dianetics. You seem to have a "held-down seven" in this area. There's no basis for this assumption. Hypnosis normally wears off over time.

Hypnosis definitely was used in the early days of dianetics. Don Rogers, Campbell, J. A. Winter, even Hubbard himself, have all said so. This is a fact.

Campbell and Winter resigned from the HDRF because they realized Hubbard had exaggerated the potential of dianetics -- no clears, etc. -- and also because they were fed up with Hubbard's autocratic attitude and refusal to adopt a more scientific approach.

I recommend Winter's book "A Doctor's Report on Dianetics." The book is anti-Hubbard, not anti-dianetics. Winter still thinks dianetics has potential benefit. He hadn't given up on dianetics, at least not at this point.

View attachment 18251

As for Campbell, he and his first wife Doña divorced and he married J. A. Winter's sister. According to Perry Chapdelaine, Sr., Campbell and his new wife continued to practice 1950-style dianetics on each other for the rest of their marriage. If this is true, Campbell hadn't completely given up on dianetics either.

(Perry is best known for "clearing" the infamous Ron Howes. He was in his 90's when he made the claim about Campbell, so maybe he was a little confused. It's in one of his videos, I don't remember which one. These are pretty interesting, in any case.)

"@Riddick, you're still making the assumption that the use of hypnosis would guarantee permanent allegiance to Hubbard and dianetics. You seem to have a "held-down seven" in this area."

I'm not making that assumption, others are, such as Veda, PTStype4, Jon Atach, etc.

Not me. I'm trying to point it out it wasn't hypnosis.

 

[Type4_PTS]

"@Riddick, you're still making the assumption that the use of hypnosis would guarantee permanent allegiance to Hubbard and dianetics. You seem to have a "held-down seven" in this area."

I'm not making that assumption, others are, such as Veda, PTStype4, Jon Atach, etc.

Not me. I'm trying to point it out it wasn't hypnosis.

No, I never made that assumption you claim I did nor did I ever write or imply that the use of hypnosis would guarantee permanent allegiance to Hubbard, Dianetics, or the CoS.

Your claim that I did is false and/or you have a severe misunderstanding.

 

[marra]

The person who did the Lucifer Version which I apparently inaccurately called Original OT8 was George M. White. He went into detail on it years ago on Rathbun's blog and it was also once a topic on Ortega's blog. He and over 100 others did it on the Freewinds (?) around 1987 (?). It caused a big flap and was soon withdrawn. George said a lot of the auditing he did on it came from History of Man so it might be his impression that Hubbard (assuming it was Hubbard who wrote it) wanted OTs to go off the Theta Trail and do work on The Body or Genetic Entity. That's just from memory so I'm not saying it's accurate.

George said he "blew a ton of charge" while auditing the "incidents" in History of Man so I guess you can add that to the discussion of hypnosis, trance or pre suggestion in auditing. Lol

Like most people George has now discarded most of what he once thought was factual in scn and particularly on the OT levels.

As a bit of justification, most people give credence to Darwinian evolution so it's not too far fetched that some people would go along with the idea of genetic memories impinging on us as a possibility to investigate. Hubbard took it a step further and even gave it a name, the Genetic Entity. Wow

He wrote a book about it using the name George Witek. The title is "Lucifer's Bridge".

 

[Zertel]

After an excited Pat Broeker gave David Mayo the Lucifer OT 8 in 1980, Mayo read it and discarded it. He was supposed to do something with it, and make it into an actual level, but did nothing.

As far as I know, Ray Mithoff also did nothing with it. It was briefly appended to his "New" OT 8, but was a non sequitur.

The only person who seems to have done anything with the 1980 OT 8 was Bill Robertson of Ron's Orgs.

Circa 1987 "New" OT 8 is something Mithoff concocted because he had to produce something that could be called OT 8, because it had been promised and people were waiting and expecting it.

The G.E. is a term for the animal soul.

Thanks. That makes sense. The people on the level obviously thought it came from Hubbard and dove in. George mentioned that he did a lot of his own case supervising on the level but I'm not sure exactly how much. He would write up a CS and submit it to the Case Supervisor for approval and then go run it.

He came out of the level smiling and waving his new OT VIII certificate so I guess he thought everything was cool at the time. He was later told he had to redo it and he told them to get lost. Lol

ETA: So where did the Lucifer stuff come from in the first place? Was that part of Hubbard's random musings or did someone else just make it up? In 1980 Hubbard was still alive and it doesn't seem likely that someone would concoct a story and say it was Hubbard's in that time frame. Scn trivia I guess.

additional edit: Never mind - Here's a write up about the whole thing:

Documents: L. Ron Hubbard Said He Was the Antichrist

Written by L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology’s original OT VIII level had Hubbard describing himself as the Antichrist spoken of in the Book of Revelation: No doubt you are familiar with the Revelations […]

scientologymoneyproject.com

excerpt:

"We accept George W. White’s personal testimony that these are the authentic words written by L. Hubbard contained in a letter dated May 5, 1980. White was on the original OT VIII course delivered on The Freewinds in July 1988. Former Scientology executives Frank Oliver and Jesse Prince have also corroborated the document as being authentic.

Former Scientologist Steven Fishman introduced the original OT VIII document into his court case; scroll down to read the document. Citation for the court case:"
........................................................................................

The "George W. White's personal testimony" reference goes to George's story on Ortega's blog.

 

[pineapple]

This is the video where Perry claims Campbell and his wife continued practicing 1950-style dianetics "until the day he died" (at about 2:25).

 

[Karakorum]

(...) how come all the people who first got Dianetics auditing aren't still involved?

Question to ask oneself.

Because Ron was such a great judge of human character and because dianetics was created to help the able become more able. This is obviously why most of the early clears turned out to be SPs.

 

[Veda]

This is the video where Perry claims Campbell and his wife continued practicing 1950-style dianetics "until the day he died" (at about 2:25).

Link to California Association of Dianetic Auditors Christmas party of 1964, recording of a session (barely audible), plus, at 33:30, additional (audible) commentary.

This is unusual as it's described as being from "the Aldous Huxley and Laura Huxley papers at the UCLA Library."

There was a CADA Journal (CADA was the first "squirrel" group) that existed from 1952 into, at least, the late 1980s.

 

[pineapple]

Link to California Association of Dianetic Auditors Christmas party of 1964, recording of a session (barely audible), plus, at 33:30, additional (audible) commentary.

This is unusual as it's described as being from "the Aldous Huxley and Laura Huxley papers at the UCLA Library."

There was a CADA Journal (CADA was the first "squirrel" group) that existed from 1952 into, at least, the late 1980s.

Thanks. That CADA auditing demo was very interesting, and funny at times. Obviously the pc wasn't a real "raw meat" volunteer, actually some guy playing a part. Van Vogt's commentary was less interesting and becoming more soporific as it went on. I gave up around 40:00.

That's only the second time I've ever heard 1950-style auditing (obviously very different from what we were doing in the 70's). I once heard a tape of Hubbard doing an auditing demo in 1950, with what was apparently a real volunteer. He was counting, snapping his fingers, etc. He got the pc into an incident quickly, but then tried to get her to go earlier without success and was clearly losing patience with her. As usual in any LRH auditing demo, he seemed to be doing things he cautions other auditors NOT to do. In this case he started feeding phrases to the pc, like, "Let's get right down to it!" and "Let's cut it out!" (looking for one of those ubiquitous attempted abortions, I guess). He finally said, "One of my assistants will finish this chain," and that was the end of the tape.

 

[Inanna]

Question to ask oneself.

Cuz they’re all dead.

 

[pineapple]

Cuz they’re all dead.

The grave's a fine and private place,
But none, I think, do there erase.

 

[Type4_PTS]

My opinion on this:
Hubbard was using/experimenting with hypnotic trance induction in the 1940s.
I don't know the percentage but many people don't go into trance state even if you try to do it and they are willing to do it.
So, the switch to using e-meter was eventually done (measure of neurotransmitter effects in the skin).

(Maybe I am not answering the question?)

I've seen a number of professional hypnotists state that absolutely everyone can go into a trance state, and people do naturally often go into a trance state during their daily activities while driving, watching TV or a movie, and during many other activities.

Maybe it is impossible to hypnotize someone against their will and put them into a trance state, but I've seen a number of hypnotists claim that they can get any willing person into such a state. Here's one of them, Steve G. Jones. He's been a clinical hypnotist for over 35 years and has written 22 books on the subject.

Hypnosis Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)

Get your Hypnosis and Hypnotherapy questions answered here. A hypnosis FAQ covering your questions about hypnotic techniques.

stevegjones.com

Can Everyone be Hypnotized?
YES. The lightest state of hypnosis (Alpha) is achieved easily. Everyone enters a hypnotic state every day, several times per day. It’s that state you are in when you are watching TV, reading a good book, playing video games, and, yes, even driving. It’s the state you are in when you are just waking up or just going to bed. You are not fully conscious, but you are not fully unconscious either.

In this state you’re up to 200 times more suggestible than when you are fully awake (Beta). Many people, when they hear about hypnosis, say, “Well, I can’t be hypnotized.” These people have been misinformed, mostly by Hollywood, about what hypnosis is and is not.

It is not necessary to be in some sort of an otherworldly trance to be in hypnosis. Hypnosis is a natural state which everyone moves in and out of throughout each day. Many of our everyday normal activities are actually performed under hypnosis without us being aware of it. Hypnosis is just like the state you are in when you have been driving a car for a long distance. You know that feeling. It’s not that you are oblivious to everything, it’s just that you have tuned out all of the unimportant stimuli. Your focus is the road.

If something were to happen which required your attention, such as a car trying to pass you, your body and mind would be able to properly respond. Also, you would be able at any time you chose, to notice the beautiful trees or old farm mills or anything else you may be driving past. Another example of hypnosis is playing video games. Some people can play video games for hours in one sitting. If someone were to talk to you while you were in a video game session, you would be able to respond.

A third good example of a hypnotic state is being on the computer. People who are using a computer are focused on what they are doing, but can intelligently answer the phone when it rings. So, hypnosis is no different than driving a car, playing video games, or working on a computer. Most people engaged in these activities would not think they are in a trance, but they are. They are in a light hypnotic trance known as Alpha.

Oh, by the way, reading a fascinating article (like this one) is another form of hypnosis…surprise! You’re in hypnosis!!! In alpha, your mind is slowed down just a little, your focus is narrow, your breathing is slow, and you are relaxed.

Most people have either driven a car, played a video game, worked on a computer, or read a really good article; therefore, to say that you cannot be hypnotized is to misunderstand the true nature of a hypnotic state. Since you are up to 200 times more suggestible even while you are in the light state of alpha, anything beyond this is unnecessary for most purposes (i.e. programming someone to lose weight, stop smoking, overcome fear of flying, etc.). You can have an extremely effective hypnosis session while being aware of and able to recall every word spoken by the Hypnotherapist.

 

[Riddick]

@Riddick, you're still making the assumption that the use of hypnosis would guarantee permanent allegiance to Hubbard and dianetics. You seem to have a "held-down seven" in this area. There's no basis for this assumption. Hypnosis normally wears off over time.

Hypnosis definitely was used in the early days of dianetics. Don Rogers, Campbell, J. A. Winter, even Hubbard himself, have all said so. This is a fact.

Campbell and Winter resigned from the HDRF because they realized Hubbard had exaggerated the potential of dianetics -- no clears, etc. -- and also because they were fed up with Hubbard's autocratic attitude and refusal to adopt a more scientific approach.

I recommend Winter's book "A Doctor's Report on Dianetics." The book is anti-Hubbard, not anti-dianetics. Winter still thinks dianetics has potential benefit. He hadn't given up on dianetics, at least not at this point.

View attachment 18251

As for Campbell, he and his first wife Doña divorced and he married J. A. Winter's sister. According to Perry Chapdelaine, Sr., Campbell and his new wife continued to practice 1950-style dianetics on each other for the rest of their marriage. If this is true, Campbell hadn't completely given up on dianetics either.

(Perry is best known for "clearing" the infamous Ron Howes. He was in his 90's when he made the claim about Campbell, so maybe he was a little confused. It's in one of his videos, I don't remember which one. These are pretty interesting, in any case.)

I read the book by Winter.

 

[Cat_Daddy]

Mind Control - Hubbard explains Scientology Youtube clip. 15 years ago. 10:59 minutes