Revisiting OTVIII . . . what, again??!! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Karakorum]

I don't question Sarge's story, but since he wrote that decades later, he may have made some errors in the times different things occurred and there may have been a bit of unconsciously filling in missing details with things he was told by others. We ALL do that. It's how visual and other tricks work on us.

All fair points. Perhaps I'm unfairly assuming active attempts at obfuscation. Perhaps Sarge wasn't very well informed about the injections and he did unconsciously made some mistakes in his own account due to the fact that he was recalling it years later.

Regardless, the coroner's report doesn't paint a picture of a man who was in control over his own life at the end. The report however also stresses that there's no signs of violence, no evidence to suggest murder or suicide either.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

. . . used the term "assisted suicide" sort of tongue in cheek.

Not so tongue in cheek.

Nov '85 -- LRH Had an electrified e-meter made up to try to kill the body with electricity. Gave it a try and the e-meter blew up.

I would consider that a suicide attempt.

Jan '86 -- Had stroke; refused to go to hospital; said wanted to die. Ray Mithoff administered "end of life" commands.

I would consider that an "assisted" suicide or death.

Assisted suicide, also known as assisted dying, is suicide undertaken with the aid of another person.​

​

Suicide is the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally​

I'm not married to my comment, but that's how I see it sorta. He wanted to die. I'm a simple person in my thinking.

Not a big deal . . . except, he promised me immortality if I would devote my life to his study, and then he takes his
own life when Dianetics or Dianetics for OTs does not fix him as he claimed it would for decades. He had a less
than average early seventies.

If someone could show me the error of my thinking, I'll change it. Not a big deal though. I heard what I heard.
Confirmed it six ways to Sunday.

I've spoken to people who knew Sarge really, really well. A real solid and trusted guy. Take it to the bank.

Splitting hairs after a point, IMO.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

That final will makes me sick.

Last I heard the estate was about $425 million in 1986. ($1billion in 2020 dollars) No wonder all the "read in"
or briefed individuals in upper management kept quiet, kept their mouths shut, and kept the con going.

The Hubbard kids as well as Mary Sue were screwed over.

I happen to know what Arthur got. It was an embarrassing pittance. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[cakemaker]

Not so tongue in cheek.

Nov '85 -- LRH Had an electrified e-meter made up to try to kill the body with electricity. Gave it a try and the e-meter blew up.

I would consider that a suicide attempt.

Jan '86 -- Had stroke; refused to go to hospital; said wanted to die. Ray Mithoff administered "end of life" commands.

I would consider that an "assisted" suicide or death.

Assisted suicide, also known as assisted dying, is suicide undertaken with the aid of another person.​

​

Suicide is the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally​

I'm not married to my comment, but that's how I see it sorta. He wanted to die. I'm a simple person in my thinking.

Not a big deal . . . except he promised me immortality if I would devote my life to his study, and then he takes his
own life when Dianetics or Dianetics for OTs does not fix him as he claimed it would for decades. He had a less
than average early seventies.

If someone could show me the error of my thinking, I'll change it. Not a big deal though. I heard what I heard.
Confirmed it six ways to Sunday.

I've spoken to people who knew Sarge really, really well. A real solid and trusted guy. Take it to the bank.

Splitting hairs after a point, IMO.

Totally agree that it was assisted.
Hubbard was done physically and mentally and he knew it.
I think he was terrified of going into a coma or ending up on life support and then the whole truth would unravel instantly.

Sarge was an uncomplicated person and what he told was not embellished. He considered Hubbard a friend and was very reticent about divulging what he knew.

When a person who has had a stroke and is in a really bad state, predicting the exact time of death is not easy but can be done as in "in the next few days". I'm sure the Vistaril was used to help push him over the edge. Maybe something else (untraceable) was used too.

Pat Broeker, if he's still alive, knows. Mithoff knows. Miscavige knows.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

I think he was terrified of going into a coma or ending up on life support and then the whole truth would unravel instantly.

What I think too. Perfect post. Every point .

Sarge was an uncomplicated person and what he told was not embellished.

This is what I concluded after interviewing people who knew him well.

Plus, Hubbard was on the verge of being located by the Feds -- to serve him a subpoena -- and author Russell Miller had said
he was very close to locating Hubbard's haunts in Northern California. It was only time.

David Miscavige was reported in prior testimony as stating, in effect, "the IRS indictments are about to come down. The only
thing that will save us now is if the Old Man dies."

All this stuff is easily searchable via google.

 

[Karen#1]

At an Indie reunion near San Antonio Texas in 2011, I spent time with Sarge. RIP
I found him to be a truly honorable and honest person.
At this get together Larry Wright showed up, he was working on the book that later became the movie
"Going Clear".

Larry filmed Sarge so this was recorded on video.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

........

...Plus, Hubbard was on the verge of being located by the Feds -- to serve him a subpoena. David Miscavige was reported in prior testimony as stating, in effect, "the IRS indictments are about to come down. The only thing that will save us now is if the Old Man dies."
.

That certainly sounds like squirrel reverse-dianetics technology. . .

The original unaltered HCOB states:

"If we lose the Old Man, we lose our political contacts and half our strength. The other New York families might wind up supporting Sollozzo just to avoid a long, destructive war. This is almost 1946. Nobody wants bloodshed anymore. If your father dies, you make the deal, Sonny."​

​

​

.​

 

[ILove2Lurk]

"If we lose the Old Man, we lose our political contacts and half our strength." Sonny

"Bada bing bada boom"
Circa 1986


​

Spoiler

I think this is after the funeral repast . . . the smiling faces of the new multi-millionaire elites of COS.
Photo from my private archives.

 

[Karen#1]

And this is Steve Pfauth's memorial that Tony Ortega posted

Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard’s caretaker and friend, Steve ‘Sarge’ Pfauth, 1945-2016 | The Underground Bunker

tonyortega.org

 

[Riddick]

I wonder how much Hubbard was influenced (or copied) some of the famous guru's of the 1950's. Krishnamurti comes to mind.

he never mentioned the name in books or lectures, So I don't think you can correlate.

 

[Riddick]

At an Indie reunion near San Antonio Texas in 2011, I spent time with Sarge. RIP
I found him to be a truly honorable and honest person.
At this get together Larry Wright showed up, he was working on the book that later became the movie
"Going Clear".

Larry filmed Sarge so this was recorded on video.

yep, Sarge said Hubbard failed. Yep, that means no clears or OT's. BTW, Hubbard cuts my lawn.

"“That’s bull crap,” Pfauth said. “He wanted to drop the body and leave. And he told me basically that he’d failed. All the work and everything, he’d failed.”

Like I said, fuck you Hubbard, asshole.

There are no clears, no OT's, it's much ado about nothing.

 

[Karen#1]

One more Sarge video which was posted by Larry Wright

 

[Riddick]

Last I heard the estate was about $425 million in 1986. ($1billion in 2020 dollars) No wonder all the "read in"
or briefed individuals in upper management kept quiet, kept their mouths shut, and kept the con going.

I happen to know what Arthur got. It was an embarrassing pittance. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Mary Sue got her house and dog. Oh, I forget, Marty was part of the getting MarySue to sign the documents, as well as DM.

 

[Riddick]

One more Sarge video which was posted by Larry Wright

thank you Ron, Mankinds greatest friend, simply says he failed.

I think this interview should be part of The Basics that DM ordered everybody to do. LOL

 

[Karen#1]

One more note on a Sarge anecdote.

Sarge had been the loyal friend and caretaker and a Mr. Fix it guy for all things that could arise on a ranch.
Although he was in the Sea Org for a lot of years, he was a what is loosely called "a lower level case"
He had never done the upper *confidential* levels so he had no information on Body Thetans and attached spirits.

Sarge shared with several of us a little story that mystified and bothered him.
In the last months of Hubbard's life, Hubbard was bothered by certain Body Thetans (BTs) that he could not apparently get rid off.
One day in those last weeks, he called for Sarge.
He asked Sarge to walk down the perimeter white fence and handle "a BT sitting on the white fence."
Dutifully, Sarge walked down to the white fence.
Sarge could not find any Body Thetan sitting on the fence.
Sarge walked back and reported to Hubbard and there was no BT on the fence.

Image: Main building in Creston, 4 years to make while Hubbard lived and died in the Bluebird camper van.

.......

 

[Deleted member 51]

Mary Sue got her house and dog. Oh, I forget, Marty was part of the getting MarySue to sign the documents, as well as DM.

She was under guard in that house for the rest of her life.

 

[Dotey OT]

All fair points. Perhaps I'm unfairly assuming active attempts at obfuscation. Perhaps Sarge wasn't very well informed about the injections and he did unconsciously made some mistakes in his own account due to the fact that he was recalling it years later.

Regardless, the coroner's report doesn't paint a picture of a man who was in control over his own life at the end. The report however also stresses that there's no signs of violence, no evidence to suggest murder or suicide either.

I have been doing mostly reading on the board recently. I have enjoyed this thread, and only ask that all who are participating by posting DATA on this thread PLEASE KEEP POSTING!!

I respect the freedoms to post as one wants, within the discretion of the mods.

I believe that it is too easy to jump to conclusions and question the data. Time has elapsed, memories fade, and there has been an attempt in general to squash data from leaking out in regards to this subject, or anything about hell-r-aich that would put him in a bad light.

I have had a chance to look at this and know for a fact that if I were in at that time and was in management, and I heard or saw anything that would have brought questions to the mind of any reasonable person in regards to his superstar thetan status, that I would have MADE IT OK in my own mind. I would have totally pushed aside any thoughts that did not align with he was mankind's best friend.

I would have done stuff that I would regret later, having found the truth about it all.

I think it is easy to second guess and question this from afar with the benefit of time. That sort of "Let's really get to the bottom of this because it does not yet fully conform to how I think" sort of thing, well, it just sort of sticks out here on this thread.

My utterly lousy two cents worth.

 

[pkatz]

Sarge could not find any Body Thetan sitting on the fence.
Sarge walked back and reported to Hubbard and there was no BT on the fence.

You left out the best part, if I remember correctly, LRH's reply:

Well, you handled him, then.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

I have been doing mostly reading on the board recently. I have enjoyed this thread, and only ask that all who are participating by posting DATA on this thread PLEASE KEEP POSTING!!

Sure.

I've looked into the Sarge claims and written about them extensively since the books
Going Clear by Lawrence Wright and Marty's Book III both came out.

COS and Sarge
The COS either likes and respects Sarge a lot or is scared to death of what he told many people.

They haven't made a hate site about Sarge and they don't refute his story anywhere.
They'd rather not put any attention on it. It's the "third rail" topic for the COS.

COS inadvertently confirms the accuracy of most of the main plot points in Going Clear . . . link.

COS is mum about Sarge . . . link. Understandably so.

Footnote: The COS of Scientology has NEVER* disputed Sarge's most revealing story or claims. On the
COS Lawrence Wright book rebuttal website, they do dispute over 200 details or less important facts or
minor errors, but they do not directly dispute Sarge's story, even though they easily could. What does
that tell you?

*For about 48 hours, the attempt to besmirch Sarge -- screen grab below -- had been posted on the website,​

but they took it down pretty quickly. No denial of the suicide attempt in November or Hubbard's refusal to​

receive proper medical care (which were both in the book), all so he could die. Case closed.​

~ click to view larger ~


​

Is Norman Starkey even a credible person at make claims about a drinking problem? . . . link

What afaceinthecrowd most eloquently opined about Sarge . . . link.

Further reading for newbies for the whole unvarnished Sarge story:

Last chapter of Going Clear by Lawrence Wright​

​

Chapter 24 of Scientology Warrior by Mark "Marty" Rathbun​

 

[ILove2Lurk]

"I strenuously object to your unfounded
insinuation about my drinking habits."


​

Where has Norman been for decades by the way?
He used to be a regular at all the events.