Are you stupid about things but yet give your opinion?

[Riddick]

I'm not stupid about dianetics and scientology, I do know some things.

Are people stupid about dianetics and scientology but yet give their opinions?

 

[Enthetan]

I used to be. As I get older I try to shut up about topics if I haven't confirmed my facts. Sometimes I still wind up embarrassing myself.

 

[Helena Handbasket]

I have opinions on almost everything, and I'm not afraid to give them.

But if it's something I don't know much about, I'll say one or two things about it then say I don't know enough to say any more.

Helena

 

[F.Bullbait]

Hey, it's all in the rhetoric...

 

[Riddick]

I have opinions on almost everything, and I'm not afraid to give them.

But if it's something I don't know much about, I'll say one or two things about it then say I don't know enough to say any more.

Helena

so why give your opinion in the first place if you don't know enough about it?

 

[Riddick]

Hey, it's all in the rhetoric...

my work is free to set scientologists free.

 

[F.Bullbait]

People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.

-Isaac Asimov

 

[Riddick]

so how do you explain how people got hoodwinked into dianetics or scientology? Was it hypnosis, was it lack of critical thinking, was it rhetoric, was it MagiK by Alister Crowely, etc, etc?

 

[Type4_PTS]

so how do you explain how people got hoodwinked into dianetics or scientology?

.

Hubbard used lots of methods. Milieu control as described by Robert Jay Lifton was one of them.

Scientology absolutely does use rhetoric, and Hubbard was excellent at using it to deceive, but his ability to create a cult depended on various mind control tactics.

The PTS/SP handlings that CoS does on members are critical in retaining them. When a friend or family member attempts to extract someone from the cult then these handlings are designed to cut off those connections to whatever degree is necessary so that friend or family member no longer can influence the member. And they indoctrinate the member to instill a belief that anyone who is critical of Scientology just does not understand it or they are PTS or SP. There is no valid criticism of Scientology.

 

[Riddick]

.

Hubbard used lots of methods. Milieu control as described by Robert Jay Lifton was one of them.

Scientology absolutely does use rhetoric, and Hubbard was excellent at using it to deceive, but his ability to create a cult depended on various mind control tactics.

The PTS/SP handlings that CoS does on members are critical in retaining them. When a friend or family member attempts to extract someone from the cult then these handlings are designed to cut off those connections to whatever degree is necessary so that friend or family member no longer can influence the member. And they indoctrinate the member to instill a belief that anyone who is critical of Scientology just does not understand it or they are PTS or SP. There is no valid criticism of Scientology.

"Hubbard used lots of methods. Milieu control as described by Robert Jay Lifton was one of them."

"Scientology absolutely does use rhetoric, and Hubbard was excellent at using it to deceive, but his ability to create a cult depended on various mind control tactics. "

I've pondered both statements by you in the past, valid questions to ask oneself. And I researched even further. Both of your statements say Hubbard used lots of methods, but I ask the question how do you know he used them? How do you know he used the various methods as Lifton describes? Did Hubbard read Lifton to use it? Do you know just because somebody else said it? If you did, then you fell for somebodies' else rhetoric.

How can one say Lifton explains it all, how can one say Jon Atach explains it all as hypnosis or even the vid you posted which I have seen many moons ago. One has to consider sources of dianetics and scientology which I have done and tried to explain and it ain't Crowley.

How do you know Hubbard used many methods? What proof you got he used them?

If you research a lot, it will all boil down to rhetoric, and you ought to research that, it doesn't just mean persuasion.

 

[Type4_PTS]

If you research a lot, it will all boil down to rhetoric, and you ought to research that, it doesn't just mean persuasion.

My knowledge comes from having worked as a staff member and Sea Org member close to 25,000 hours over 10 years for several different organizations. And witnessing first hand MANY of those methods described by Steven Hassan in his BITE model I linked to earlier in another thread. If we go through that model point by point I would bet good money that ALL former Scientologists (including yourself) would be able to confirm that some of those methods were used on them when in and/or they observed them being used on others.

Saying that "it's all rhetoric" would be tantamount to walking through a museum, viewing great works of art from different artists who use various styles such as realism, impressionism, abstract art, surrealism, cubism, and other styles and I proclaim "it's all paint". I would be correct in saying that but it doesn't show I really understand what I'm looking at nor would it help others understand.

ALL cult leaders use rhetoric, but it takes more than rhetoric to build a successful cult.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

Saying that "it's all rhetoric" would be tantamount to walking through a museum, viewing great works of art from different artists who use various styles such as realism, impressionism, abstract art, surrealism, cubism, and other styles and I proclaim "it's all paint". I would be correct in saying that but it doesn't show I really understand what I'm looking at nor would it help others understand.

it's not even all paint....

 

[Type4_PTS]

it's not even all paint....

I was expecting that someone was going to point that out. It didn't take long.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

I was expecting that someone was going to point that out. It didn't take long.

it's not even necessarily just one thing or the other, either.

painting or sculpture?

3 or 4 or 5 different media and techniques? (household object as mixed media, sculpture and/or ceramics, paint or decoration)

 

[Reyne Mayer]

How do you know Hubbard used many methods? What proof you got he used them?

how do you know Hubbard relied on just rhetoric? what proof do you have that was all he used?

or what if, like with magicians and street scammers (see the Derren Brown videos i've posted) the patter or rhetoric is just a distraction from the techniques actually being used?

over in the Scio Susceptibility thread, i just posted a list of Predisposing Factors to cultic recruitment and involvement, and among them are:

Low tolerance for ambiguity (need for absolute answers, impatience to obtain answers)

are you maybe a bit hung up on that?

Curiosity Is as Important as Intelligence

You need both to manage complexity.

hbr.org

 

[Helena Handbasket]

so why give your opinion in the first place if you don't know enough about it?

If I have a little bit of knowledge I'll give a little bit of opinion. If I have a lot of knowledge, I'll give a lot. If I have too much knowledge, I'll give too much. Often I have plenty of knowledge and will be plenty opinionated (thank you, Marx Bros).

Helena

 

[Riddick]

how do you know Hubbard relied on just rhetoric? what proof do you have that was all he used?

or what if, like with magicians and street scammers (see the Derren Brown videos i've posted) the patter or rhetoric is just a distraction from the techniques actually being used?

over in the Scio Susceptibility thread, i just posted a list of Predisposing Factors to cultic recruitment and involvement, and among them are:



are you maybe a bit hung up on that?

Curiosity Is as Important as Intelligence

You need both to manage complexity.

hbr.org

"how do you know Hubbard relied on just rhetoric? what proof do you have that was all he used?"

I pretty much gave my proof or reasoning in the Dean Wilbur tread I posted on ESMB with my research.

Here is something else that is interesting:

Tips for Rhetoric from Hypnosis (geoffsmiscellany.com)

Rhetoric and Dialectic in Apologetics (geoffsmiscellany.com)

The Third Art of the Trivium: Rhetoric (geoffsmiscellany.com)

Words and Rhetoric (geoffsmiscellany.com)

I don't know if you or anybody else will read the links I just provided, he writes better than me so I posted them.

I have read Steven Hassan BITE Model & listened to his vids, and listened to (You Tube'd) Derren Brown in the past. The reason I researched was simply to find out if I was hypnotized since everybody said we were, but I wasn't sure. I came to the conclusion I was not, but simply persuaded by rhetoric. I do appreciate all the work these folks have done, many of them, lots of exmembers and lots of outsiders you might say.

Will I persuade anybody posting here it was all rhetoric, I doubt it. Some will accept the new rhetoric to explain it all.

Anyways, always a pleasure to converse in a civil manner.

One day it would be a pleasure to have a beer or two with those posting here.

 

[Inanna]

I'm not stupid about dianetics and scientology, I do know some things.

Are people stupid about dianetics and scientology but yet give their opinions?

Yep. Just look at some of the posts on the Facebook fangroups. There are people who will actually tell Scientology survivors all about it. For a bonus, some throw in some bible thumping.

 

[Inanna]

so how do you explain how people got hoodwinked into dianetics or scientology? Was it hypnosis, was it lack of critical thinking, was it rhetoric, was it MagiK by Alister Crowely, etc, etc?

Why do people get into anything? There are people who straight up joined the FLDS who weren’t even brought up in it.

IMO, Hubbard used the spaghetti technique. He kept tossing all kinds of stuff in to the mix til it would stick when he threw it at the wall.

 

[Lee #28]

OP is a rather loaded question!