Harold#1
A VERY STABLE SUPER GENIUS!!
WWP had a DRAMA thread that was sometimes as entertaining as this one, but you are right. It's time to move on.
I thought Leah's first book totally tanked! Does anyone disagree?
"You can't be poor and be a scientologist" -the view from the rich public
- Thread starter Karakorum
- Start date
I thought Leah's first book totally tanked! Does anyone disagree?
HelluvaHoax!
Well-known member
That may be a fitting BOOKEND to literally end this thread. LOL.
Hey Harold, that was some rather extensive research you did there!
I knew your post was bogus but just to satisfy my morbid sense of curiosity, I invested 3 seconds to look at Google and another 5 seconds to look at one book seller (Amazon). I see you are using the "acceptable" definition of tanked.
You asked, 'does anyone disagree?' Yeah. Amazon disagrees. Reality also disagrees.
The book went to #1 on the BESTSELLER LIST.
The reviews on Amazon are extraordinarily favorable (94%)--or 4.7 out of 5 stars.
Were you trying to troll this thread or you just normally make up facts and throw them out there for fun? LOL
.
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I told you I was trouble
Suspended animation.
True ... and for many of us that feeling will (hopefully) last forever.
It's an ability regained!
Bill
Well-known member
You are, in my opinion, quite wrong. Scientology IS a rich person's cult. It is, now, only a rich person's cult. OF COURSE rich people require slaves to service all their needs -- and that IS the Sea Org.You are very, very far from understanding it correctly. I'd say you are on the other side of the Van Allen belt from "correctly".
In reply, I'm first gonna go and quote myself (post #23 of this thread):
"One of the major problems with the current image of scientology is the "UFO cult for rich Hollywood actors" stereotype. While this image certainly doesn't help Scientology recruitment, it is also damaging to current and ex-members. It causes the general public to dismiss Scientology as a "celebrity fad" and thus doesn't make them treat Scientology seriously. Nobody will revoke its tax free status or establish humane work norms for its employees if people continue to see it just from the rich celebrity angle."
I just feel that looking at scientology from the rich public angle alone is simply unhelpful at this point. One needs to point out the situation on staff, in the SO and among scientology's kids. Leah referred to this on various parts of her show. But she did not mention any of this in this interview, just focused on how scientology rips rich people off. That's my criticism and I stand by it. OSA suspicions or not.
I'd rather be a suspected of being an OSA agent than start to self-police my own comments.
Scientology isn't there for the Sea Org members -- they will never get those services except in the most superficial way. S.O. members are certainly part of the rich person's cult but not recipients of it's services.
So presenting it as a rich person's cult is ACCURATE in all ways that matter. The fact that S.O. members are, essentially, unpaid slaves to the rich is why it is serious and is but one more reason why its tax exempt status must be cancelled.
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programmer_guy
True ex-Scientologist
I was poor when I was a young Scientologist (and staffer).
I got so tired of this condition that I left Scientology to go back to college. (But I still believed in "the tech" for many years)
I got so tired of this condition that I left Scientology to go back to college. (But I still believed in "the tech" for many years)
stratty
Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
Yes, trying to live on the meagre pay was the main reason I left too (that and being separated from my wife at the time). I didn't go to college when I got out (that came much later) but I was lucky enough to get trained up in an occupation that ensured I worked for the next 25 years or so.
I was very lucky, if I hadn't have stumbled into the gaming industry I don't know what might have become of me.
HelluvaHoax!
Well-known member
...
Excellent points!
I would add the following---the entire premise of Karakorum's original post is incorrect for another reason as well. Much fuss was made about how Leah was not answering the interviewers' (Larry King and/or Joe Rogan) correctly and doing a very bad job as an ex-Scientologist speaking publicly.
Further, the point being hammered was that Leah was not only doing a terrible job but actually HARMING Scientologists by not sticking to a very specific script of talking points. There are too many unproven assertions like that to list here, but let's inspect just one (1) of them:
That is quite a bizarre assertion for a number of reasons, including:
The above illustrates that the entire premise that Leah is HARMING Scientologists is absurd and fully qualifies and Orwellian propaganda. The book 1984 had such slogans as WAR IS PEACE, and this entire campaign to denigrate Leah might have its own bumper sticker "WHISTLEBLOWING IS ABUSE". That's Leah's crime, her whistleblowing about abuse is the the thing that is allowing the abuse to continue.
I want to bring up another point that has not been discussed. Karakorum holds herself up as a master of talking points, sternly reprimanding Leah for not answering questions about Scientology as Karakorum says SHE would answer them. There is about to be another Orwellian moment that nobody has mentioned:
By contrast, the person leveling all the criticisms and scolding against Leah has zero experience, zero success and zero people she has reached to inform them of Scientology's abuse.
It gets even stranger. Not only has Karakorum never evidenced any ability to wins the hearts and minds of many tens of millions of people, she cannot even make her case in a way that a tiny number of Ex-Scientologists on this website agree with, let alone like.
Yet, the person who has been proven to TURN PEOPLE OFF to her speaking points is the one lecturing the most successful and well loved public speaker on the subject, Leah.
If Karakorum had won people over with her talking techniques, maybe there would be an argument she could make that she should be Leah's speechwriter and that Leah must always follow her speaking technology.
Could anyone rationally look at Leah's spectacularly successful track record of speaking in public and even wonder for one second whether Karakorum is a more effective speaker? If she COULD speak convincingly and win people over, she would be able to do that for herself as well--which provably she cannot.
Consider this--Leah speaks and millions listen because they like/love her and what she is saying and how she is saying. Then consider---when Karakorum communicates even to a few people (like this message board) over days (not minutes) she is unable to win support.
In fact what she is saying and how she is saying it is roundly rejected by most. And instead of helping raise awareness of Scientology's abuses, she instead focuses her listeners on what a hugely successful activist against Scientology's abuses is doing wrong.
An activists like LEAH can activate others with compelling and visionary narratives and facts. If someone cannot activate others, they are the last person in the world to be giving expert advice to those who can.
Again, I invite Karakorum to offer ANY evidence at all that she has had success convincing anyone of anything on any medium, let alone on an international national stage.
One wonders how someone can conclude with so much certainty that they are an expert at something they are fully unable to do.
.
Excellent points!
I would add the following---the entire premise of Karakorum's original post is incorrect for another reason as well. Much fuss was made about how Leah was not answering the interviewers' (Larry King and/or Joe Rogan) correctly and doing a very bad job as an ex-Scientologist speaking publicly.
Further, the point being hammered was that Leah was not only doing a terrible job but actually HARMING Scientologists by not sticking to a very specific script of talking points. There are too many unproven assertions like that to list here, but let's inspect just one (1) of them:
"If people believe this is just about rich actors... nobody will care and nobody will bother investigating if there is abuse in the church or not." -karakorum
That is quite a bizarre assertion for a number of reasons, including:
- - That is an unproven theory that there is zero evidence or support for.
- - If anyone is even slightly familiar with Leah Remini's body of work as an activist, they are aware the Leah has done more to raise the awareness and demand redress for Scientology's human rights abuse than perhaps any other person in Scientology's entire 70 years. I am unable to think of anyone who has even come within 1M light years of publicizing Scientology's abuses at the sheer viral volume of Leah's multi-season hit tv show, book, massively seen interviews and guest appearances on talk shows. Nobody has generated the hundreds of millions of impressions that Leah did, so to attempt to blame Leah for harming the public perception of Scientology abuse--well, that is not only a lie, it's character assassination by innuendo.
- - Leah actually did the exact OPPOSITE of what she is being falsely accused of. She created a multi-season hit TV show that was DEDICATED to exposing the human rights abuses, introducing Scientology's actual VICTIMS each episode. Her victims were not movie stars, they were ordinary people, Scientologists at all levels, and especially the forgotten lowly staff members that suffered greatly under Scientology's sociopathy.
The above illustrates that the entire premise that Leah is HARMING Scientologists is absurd and fully qualifies and Orwellian propaganda. The book 1984 had such slogans as WAR IS PEACE, and this entire campaign to denigrate Leah might have its own bumper sticker "WHISTLEBLOWING IS ABUSE". That's Leah's crime, her whistleblowing about abuse is the the thing that is allowing the abuse to continue.
I want to bring up another point that has not been discussed. Karakorum holds herself up as a master of talking points, sternly reprimanding Leah for not answering questions about Scientology as Karakorum says SHE would answer them. There is about to be another Orwellian moment that nobody has mentioned:
WHEN MEASURED BY NUMBER OF PEOPLE REACHED, LEAH IS THE
SINGLE MOST SUCCESSFUL WHISTLEBLOWER AND ADVOCATE FOR
SCIENTOLOGY'S ABUSE VICTIMS THAT EVER EXISTED.
SINGLE MOST SUCCESSFUL WHISTLEBLOWER AND ADVOCATE FOR
SCIENTOLOGY'S ABUSE VICTIMS THAT EVER EXISTED.
By contrast, the person leveling all the criticisms and scolding against Leah has zero experience, zero success and zero people she has reached to inform them of Scientology's abuse.
It gets even stranger. Not only has Karakorum never evidenced any ability to wins the hearts and minds of many tens of millions of people, she cannot even make her case in a way that a tiny number of Ex-Scientologists on this website agree with, let alone like.
Yet, the person who has been proven to TURN PEOPLE OFF to her speaking points is the one lecturing the most successful and well loved public speaker on the subject, Leah.
If Karakorum had won people over with her talking techniques, maybe there would be an argument she could make that she should be Leah's speechwriter and that Leah must always follow her speaking technology.
Could anyone rationally look at Leah's spectacularly successful track record of speaking in public and even wonder for one second whether Karakorum is a more effective speaker? If she COULD speak convincingly and win people over, she would be able to do that for herself as well--which provably she cannot.
Consider this--Leah speaks and millions listen because they like/love her and what she is saying and how she is saying. Then consider---when Karakorum communicates even to a few people (like this message board) over days (not minutes) she is unable to win support.
In fact what she is saying and how she is saying it is roundly rejected by most. And instead of helping raise awareness of Scientology's abuses, she instead focuses her listeners on what a hugely successful activist against Scientology's abuses is doing wrong.
An activists like LEAH can activate others with compelling and visionary narratives and facts. If someone cannot activate others, they are the last person in the world to be giving expert advice to those who can.
Again, I invite Karakorum to offer ANY evidence at all that she has had success convincing anyone of anything on any medium, let alone on an international national stage.
One wonders how someone can conclude with so much certainty that they are an expert at something they are fully unable to do.
.
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guanoloco
As-Wased
Great post!
I just realized what a complete fuckup Remini is.
Botched the whole thing.
Did untold damage to the whole cause.
Ruined people's lives.
stratty
Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
Yeah, it's a good thing there are enlightened people around who can point out exactly where she's going wrong and who are actually doing something that really IS making a difference! Oh, ... wait ...
HelluvaHoax!
Well-known member
At least we now know why Scientology's abuse has continued unchecked. It's because Leah once mentioned that Scientology was incredibly expensive. No wonder nobody can stop Scientology's mass victimization---she should never never never never never have revealed that. WTF was she thinking?!
This thread has been so illuminating. I also learned that telling people that Scientology is going to try and take all their money---well that would NEVER be a way to stop people from joining Scientology. This thread has educated me that people really don't care about spending all their money and going broke in Scientology.
What wogs listening to Larry King or Joe Rogan DO care about very very very deeply is attending academic lectures detailing the nuanced differences between Scientologists so that they really really really understand that staff Scientologists are not really Scientologists like the other Scientologists are Scientologists. They need to learn the difference!!!!!!!!! If wogs in their living room can only learn that abstraction, then the Scientology will not longer abuse people.
Can you imagine Karakorum being interviewed on Larry King and Joe Rogan---that would be amazing---she would ignore their questions and get busy on a big white board to diagram out why the most important thing to know about Scientology is to learn what Scn staff members problems are---even before they know what Scientology IS! LOL
LARRY KING
So, help us out. Nobody really has any clue what
Scientology is. So what actually IS Scientology.
I mean, for example, is it expensive?
EXPERT SPOKESPERSON
Larry, I am not going to answer that
question about whether Scientology
is expensive. What people need to
first learn about Scientology is
some of the differences between
Scientology staff members and
Scientologists who get auditing.
LARRY KING
What is auditing?
EXPERT SPOKESPERSON
Larry, you are really focusing on the
wrong thing. I was on staff and I
want to explain to all your viewers
how Scientology orgs work and
what staff scientologists do.
LARRY KING
Wait, you still haven't explained
what Scientology is so nobody
is going to understand or even
care what you tell them about
"staff members". They are going
to turn off this show in the next
15 seconds if you can't even
answer a simple question
about what IS Scientology.
EXPERT SPOKESPERSON
Well, the most important thing for your
viewers to understand is the concept of
"staff". And as far as them turning off
the show, I condemn them for not
caring about the abuses of Scientology.
LARRY KING
So you don't even care that hundreds of
thousands of people right now are turning
off their tv or switching to another show?
EXPERT SPOKESPERSON
Don't question me, I know what I am doing.
LARRY KING
But when we had Leah Remini on our show
750,000 tuned in and she answered my
questions and people LOVED her!
EXPERT SPOKESPERSON
Well she's not a good speaker. All the people
turning off their TVs will later realize that
I am a great speaker and they made
a terrible mistake. Then you'll all
be sorry. So, lets now continue
clearing the word "staff".
Do you happen to
have some
clay?
.
So, help us out. Nobody really has any clue what
Scientology is. So what actually IS Scientology.
I mean, for example, is it expensive?
EXPERT SPOKESPERSON
Larry, I am not going to answer that
question about whether Scientology
is expensive. What people need to
first learn about Scientology is
some of the differences between
Scientology staff members and
Scientologists who get auditing.
LARRY KING
What is auditing?
EXPERT SPOKESPERSON
Larry, you are really focusing on the
wrong thing. I was on staff and I
want to explain to all your viewers
how Scientology orgs work and
what staff scientologists do.
LARRY KING
Wait, you still haven't explained
what Scientology is so nobody
is going to understand or even
care what you tell them about
"staff members". They are going
to turn off this show in the next
15 seconds if you can't even
answer a simple question
about what IS Scientology.
EXPERT SPOKESPERSON
Well, the most important thing for your
viewers to understand is the concept of
"staff". And as far as them turning off
the show, I condemn them for not
caring about the abuses of Scientology.
LARRY KING
So you don't even care that hundreds of
thousands of people right now are turning
off their tv or switching to another show?
EXPERT SPOKESPERSON
Don't question me, I know what I am doing.
LARRY KING
But when we had Leah Remini on our show
750,000 tuned in and she answered my
questions and people LOVED her!
EXPERT SPOKESPERSON
Well she's not a good speaker. All the people
turning off their TVs will later realize that
I am a great speaker and they made
a terrible mistake. Then you'll all
be sorry. So, lets now continue
clearing the word "staff".
Do you happen to
have some
clay?
.
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guanoloco
As-Wased
Remini is a joke.
A fraud.
She's responsible for the damage that Scientology abuse does because people won't take it seriously because it's just a bunch of rich celebrities.
stratty
Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
Listen, Tom Cruise is a great actor, and if he says scientology is a wonderful thing, that's good enough for me.
guanoloco
As-Wased
Hilarious!!
LMFAO!!!!
It's about as stupid as Miscavige re-selling the basics over punctuation and that after DECADES of checksheets starting out with "WE HAVE THE CORRECT TECHNOLOGY".
What's the focus? Commas and colons!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The reason no one has gone OT is because of these misplaced commas over here.
As if the interview is soooooooo delicate that a nuance that an "only in" would get destroys the whole context.
HelluvaHoax!
Well-known member
,
LOL
.
LOL
.
SUCCESS STORY
When I saw the movie Top Gun and Mr. Cruise gave the
thumbs-up, I blew a lot of by-passed-charge. Afterwards,
the staff member that routed me to the theater told me
that I could also wear a military uniform so
I signed a billion year contract.
- Billy Blowdown
.
When I saw the movie Top Gun and Mr. Cruise gave the
thumbs-up, I blew a lot of by-passed-charge. Afterwards,
the staff member that routed me to the theater told me
that I could also wear a military uniform so
I signed a billion year contract.
- Billy Blowdown
.
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He-man
Hero extraordinary
@HelluvaHoax! and all other ongoers.
Don't you think the fine line between getting a point across, and hammering it down with a sledgehammer, was crossed already someplace before #170?
Anyways. Music is always a great soothener.
Don't you think the fine line between getting a point across, and hammering it down with a sledgehammer, was crossed already someplace before #170?
Anyways. Music is always a great soothener.
M&M
Self-Born Unicorn
)
Karakorum
千差万別
I agree that Scientology isn't there for Sea Or members. Though I would also add that Scientology isn't there for the rich public. Scientology isn't there for Tom Cruise or the Whales. The Whales are the most broken pieces of them all. They have the money, the power and the opportunity to just leave and slam the door - but they choose not to.
Public, Whales, Staff, SO, Management, Dave... they all exist for Scientology, not the other way around. The game master might be gone, but the game goes on.
I told you I was trouble
Suspended animation.
I agree with all of that except the final line ... the new game master is Miscavige and he is even worse than the original one.
Karakorum
千差万別
Davey is running the game worse than Hubbard, but I do not believe he acts as a game-master. I don't think he himself believes himself to be a game master. Guy spent all his adult life in the cult, most of it in management. He doesn't have have a place to go.
Can you imagine Dave leaving and the pleading with Ron for a couch to sleep on? Neither can I.
guanoloco
As-Wased
I vociferously disagree with the utilization of the concept of "hammering" being unduly associated with a sledgehammer.
This doesn't convey justice to hammering by implying the use of a sledgehammer.
Hammering isn't just for sledgehammer use.
There are a degree of hammers and their subsequent application is also part and parcel to hammering.
For instance: there's a device known as a tackhammer that in comparison to a sledgehammer is actually a fine tool for delicate and intricate application. However, it is a device for hammering.
Chiropractors use a reflex hammer. This is hammering. By stating "sledgehammer" you rule out the various other applications of hammering.
No one would ever use a sledgehammer for applications that require a ball-peen hammer or a claw hammer. One is for metal and the other is for wood.
When you post an association between hammering and a sledgehammer this leaves an incomplete reference in reader's minds that aren't familiar with hammering.
Hammering isn't just for sledgehammers.