Will the penny ever drop in the Sea Org?

Hi there Trouble,

Thanks for your responses so far. I'm starting to get worried that I'm grilling people on here, including you, and this thread could end badly as a result (I've seen it happen elsewhere), but I have to say that the overall verdict here isn't what I thought it would be .

I posted this thread thinking that everyone on staff in the CofS is there primarily because they believe in the tech and want to disseminate it (and this coincides with my experience when I was "in," at least amongst the ones who stay on staff), whereas what you're saying, basically, is "well no, actually they're not."

Gadfly posted three core beliefs on the old board that he was insistent everyone on staff had (I'll see if I can find them). From what you're saying, those beliefs aren't very influential in why people on staff stay there?

I don't feel as if I'm being grilled so don't worry about that ... it's a good thread.

It goes without saying that I'm only speaking of my own experiences within the SO and though I believe I'm fairly perceptive I realise my opinions are just that, my opinions.

I'm pretty sure any ex-staff member will confirm that being public and being staff are chalk and cheese. From the moment a person joins staff they are there on the same terms as everyone else, as per that brutal KSW policy. Of course there would be people there that believe in the tek and are deluded enough to think they are saving the planet but I find it hard to believe there are many in 2020. I certainly didn't believe that but then I didn't go the SH intending to join the SO. I was just visiting my dearest girlfriend and got virtually kidnapped (truly). If you have ever met or heard of Ivis Bulger, Don Larson or Ira Chaleff you may understand, though only staff knew what they could really be like behind the scenes, they could all be absolutely charming and filled with warmth when they had to be (ie when dealing with public).


Hi again Trouble,

I think there are pockets of that warmth in the CofS that are genuine. At the org where I was, the ED's wife once offered my a place to stay when I was finding it hard to cope with a very difficult situation at home (and she'd given up a highly paid job to work full time on staff). If they didn't exist it would be a lot easier to leave.

Yes, of course ... all I'm saying is that (from my experience) once you put a foot out of line you were on your own, any 'warmth' disappeared in a heartbeat and you were the enemy (as per that other policy on conditions). I just found it easier not to relax or trust any of them.
 
Hi again Trouble,

I think there are pockets of that warmth in the CofS that are genuine. At the org where I was, the ED's wife once offered my a place to stay when I was finding it hard to cope with a very difficult situation at home (and she'd given up a highly paid job to work full time on staff). If they didn't exist it would be a lot easier to leave.


I expect her offer was genuinely due to warmth and caring ... but having been on staff I also know that having a person 'under control' and not 'PTS' is always better than letting them go their own way ... sorry, but it's the truth Cats and they are trained to respond that way so that it makes it difficult for people to leave.

:)
 
Staff members, even hard edged sea org ones are there because they care, they are there because they want people they love and those they don't even know to live better lives. That basic warm fuzzy loving is what the cult feeds on, it turns it into cold hearted zeal. Sooner or later people become zealots focussed on stamping out and knocking off and determined to carry on with or without sleep, knowing that their pathetic little existence is nothing compared with the greater good. They are happy to turn into ice queen robots because in the end there will be warm fuzzy fluffy cuddles again.
 
I expect her offer was genuinely due to warmth and caring ... but having been on staff I also know that having a person 'under control' and not 'PTS' is always better than letting them go their own way ... sorry, but it's the truth Cats and they are trained to respond that way so that it makes it difficult for people to leave.

:)


A close friend of mine made this observation:

"When you are around a Scientology Org, you have to be very
suspicious and untrusting of 51% of the staff, clears and OTs.
However, you don't have to be suspicious of the OTHER 49%--

because you already know they are doing everything
possible to deceive & defraud you."
L. Don Hubbard

.
​

.
 
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Hi everyone,

I'm returning here to a question I raised in passing on the old board. Most people who join staff, and those who join the Sea Org in particular, are there because they want to save the world through Ron Hubbard's technology - they think that if the tech is disseminated and then applied throughout the world, there'll be no more war, crime or insanity as Hubbard claimed. Most of them work very hard (or are worked very hard) to try and make this come about. And yet it's blindingly obvious to anyone with a nodding acquaintance with the CofS stats that this dissemination isn't happening and is vanishingly unlikely to ever happen.

It's relatively easy to keep people in outer orgs, such as the one I was at, in the dark - the only people they ever meet are other outer org people, mostly from the same area, and the occasional higher-up from St. Hill who is well versed in the notion of the "shore story" and unlikely to spill the beans to them. But how about the St. Hillers themselves, the long time staffers in the Advanced Orgs, and other people near the top of the Scn pyramid who see far more of what is actually going on than the outer org people do and are in a position to see for themselves how far the CofS is from delivering on its promises?

What are the chances that some of them will start to put two and two together and realise that Miscavige's leadership isn't delivering on the promises they signed up for all those years ago, and start to question what he is doing in charge of it all? And then, once they've reached the conclusion that he is toxic to the whole enterprise, put a plan together to depose him?
Well, you just very aptly described a huge part of my own mental journey that, at the end, led me out of scientology. From "the leadership sucks" through: "They are not getting the job done, we need to get rid of them" to "it won't work, I'm outta here".

There was a period when I had very seriously considered that some sort of proactive leadership change (ie: coup) was necessary. However, I then came to the conclusion that such action was not possible, at least from my own position among the continentals.

For a coup to occur, it would have to involve CST and CMO people and would have to take place at gold or at flag with Davey being present. Was it possible? I think you can ask Mike, Karen or other people who were at gold.

On my end, I can only say that if a coup attempt would have occurred in the late 2000s, loyalties at PAC would have been divided. I doubt anyone at inv would have disobeyed my orders, but I have no idea which way div 4, div 7 would have tilted. I assume OSA would have been Davey's bitterenders.
During my final 1.5 years there, I had probably played all the iterations of such a coup scenario a million times in my head.
 
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There was never unconditional warmth in Scientology.

It was always conditional on you being obedient.
Or conditional on your signing up or handing over the money, or finishing your course, or writing enough success stories, or getting your stats up before Thursday 2pm.

But there were some staff members who crossed the road to talk to people even though they knew they were declared, there were some scientologists in good standing who would give food to someone who was downstat and broke, some people who didn't shout at people whose parent had just died for having case on post. Not everyone told the ethics officer that they thought their spouse wanted to leave. Some scientologist are still humans.
 
My viewpoint is that they were decent humans because they were decent humans.

In other words, they were decent IN SPITE OF being Scientologists, rather than BECAUSE they were Scientologists; that Scientology did not contribute to decency.
Exactly, and they would have been good Catholics, or NOIs or Orthodox Jews, or Trump supporters or Biden supporters Brexiters or Remainers. People sometimes define themselves by the ideologies they follow, but they are themselves non the less. I am not an ideology, I am not my voting history, I am me and fit into no pigeon hole's confining walls. When you start to realise how those prison walls impinge on you, then, and only then do you become free.
 
Emphasis mine.

Exactly, and they would have been good Catholics, or NOIs or Orthodox Jews, or Trump supporters or Biden supporters Brexiters or Remainers. People sometimes define themselves by the ideologies they follow, but they are themselves non the less. I am not an ideology, I am not my voting history, I am me and fit into no pigeon hole's confining walls. When you start to realise how those prison walls impinge on you, then, and only then do you become free.



Likewise.

:heartflowers:
 
There are dedicated staff and sea org members who will never open their eyes to the fact that scientology does not do what it promises. I'm sure some of them realize that they will never clear the planet but I think most of them simply not-is it (to borrow a scientology term).

But I think there are some, particularly in the "second" generation, who will eventually open their eyes and see.

So there's always going to be a base/core group but it will shrink and shrink. Heck, I'd say only about 50% of scientology kids get heavily involved with the cult and I think a number of those that do get involved eventually slip away.

Also, the cult has for a long time pushed money money money as the most important thing and in a way that cuts their own throat. No one wants to join the sea org or be an auditor, they want to be a big time ias donator.
 
No one wants to join the sea org or be an auditor, they want to be a big time ias donator.
[/QUOTE]

WOW that's so different from in my day. We were mostly retired hippies in London Org, money had no value, maybe that's why we never got enough pay to eat or pay rent! Breadheads were seriously looked down on. They were regged for services, not for money, that's a very different thing.
 
WOW that's so different from in my day. We were mostly retired hippies in London Org, money had no value, maybe that's why we never got enough pay to eat or pay rent! Breadheads were seriously looked down on. They were regged for services, not for money, that's a very different thing.

They got rid of auditors day years ago. People see how tough life is on staff/in the s.o. and see how unrewarding it is. Versus the mega donors living their best life and getting praise showered on them. These days, with social media and everything, people all know people who had bad experiences on staff/s.o./training or whatever and they naturally will shy away from that.

In scientology the celebrities are big donors so that's what everyone wants to be or works towards. Not to say that no one looks up to auditors or wants to be on staff/s.o. of course some do. But the celebs are big donors and the primary focus is on how much they've donated or whatever.
 
They got rid of auditors day years ago. People see how tough life is on staff/in the s.o. and see how unrewarding it is. Versus the mega donors living their best life and getting praise showered on them. These days, with social media and everything, people all know people who had bad experiences on staff/s.o./training or whatever and they naturally will shy away from that.

In scientology the celebrities are big donors so that's what everyone wants to be or works towards. Not to say that no one looks up to auditors or wants to be on staff/s.o. of course some do. But the celebs are big donors and the primary focus is on how much they've donated or whatever.
MEST is winning in cultland!
 
A close friend of mine made this observation:

"When you are around a Scientology Org, you have to be very
suspicious and untrusting of 51% of the staff, clears and OTs.
However, you don't have to be suspicious of the OTHER 49%--

because you already know they are doing everything
possible to deceive & defraud you."
L. Don Hubbard

.
​

.

There is a way to get to the bottom of this distrust.
Sea Org personnel have learned to monetize the suspicion
FIND THEIR CRIMES !
Sec Check the living daylights out of one and all for years !
Make them run False Purpose Rundown on all 8 dynamics for YEARS to flush out their EVIL.
Even with end result that they are no bigger than a dot.

Mistrust the OT 7s even more.
Force then to run 75 questions confessionals every 6 months for those
hidden crimes between solo sessions ! Nice revenue for those that meekly comply.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
There is a way to get to the bottom of this distrust.
Sea Org personnel have learned to monetize the suspicion
FIND THEIR CRIMES !
Sec Check the living daylights out of one and all for years !
Make them run False Purpose Rundown on all 8 dynamics for YEARS to flush out their EVIL.
Even with end result that they are no bigger than a dot.

Mistrust the OT 7s even more.
Force then to run 75 questions confessionals every 6 months for those
hidden crimes between solo sessions ! Nice revenue for those that meekly comply.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
The public were always thought to be freeloading scum when I was in. People who lacked enough commitment to join staff. Sounds like it's even more so with utter distrust, or to see it another way, certainty that the paying public are basically criminals and that the staff are worse. They must all be so squeaky clean, or they've managed to work out how to F/N at will. Not that I ever did that of course.
 
There is a way to get to the bottom of this distrust.
Sea Org personnel have learned to monetize the suspicion
FIND THEIR CRIMES !
Sec Check the living daylights out of one and all for years !
Make them run False Purpose Rundown on all 8 dynamics for YEARS to flush out their EVIL.
Even with end result that they are no bigger than a dot.

Mistrust the OT 7s even more.
Force then to run 75 questions confessionals every 6 months for those
hidden crimes between solo sessions ! Nice revenue for those that meekly comply.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

.

Amazing variety of scams Scientology perpetrates on its own loyal supporters, customers and parishioners!

The money schemes and rackets are thoroughly manipulative, covert, cruel and often sadistic.

What is even more remarkable is that while IN the cult, the notion that Scientology management is ripping everyone off blind with lies would be completely unimaginable to a Scientologist. Merely suggesting it would be greeted with a screaming and "snarling defense", exactly per the mandate of the Founder's sacred scripture (i.e. HCO POLICY "The Responsibility of Leaders").

If anyone is sill not sure about Scientology's being "covertly hostile", just consider for a moment the pervasive lying and misdirection in even the title of that POLICY. It pretends to humbly explain the weight "responsibilities" being courageously shouldered by Scientology's "leaders". Instead, it's a wicked dissertation that details the responsibilities of scientology slaves, whose sacred obligation is to lie, cheat and even murder to protect its leaders.

excerpt from Hubbard's cult doctrine "The Responsibility of Leaders"
"When you’re close to power get some delegated to you, enough to do your job and protect yourself and your interests, for you can be shot, fellow, shot, as the position near power is delicious but dangerous, dangerous always, open to the taunts of any enemy of the power who dare not really boot the power but can boot you. So to live at all in the shadow or employ of a power you must yourself gather and USE enough power to hold your own—without just nattering to the power to “kill Pete,” in straightforward or more suppressive veiled ways to him as these wreck the power that supports yours. He doesn’t have to know all the bad news and if he’s a power really he won’t ask all the time, “What are all those dead bodies doing at the door?” And if you are clever, you never let it be thought HE killed them—that weakens you and also hurts the power source. “Well, boss, about all those dead bodies, nobody at all will suppose you did it. She over there, those pink legs sticking out, didn’t like me.” “Well,” he’ll say if he really is a power, “why are you bothering me with it if it’s done and you did it. Where’s my blue ink?” Or “Skipper, three shore patrolmen will be along soon with your cook, Dober, and they’ll want to tell you he beat up Simson.” “Who’s Simson?” “He’s a clerk in the enemy office downtown.” “Good, when they’ve done it, take Dober down to the dispensary for any treatment he needs. Oh yes. Raise his pay.” Or “Sir, could I have the power to sign divisional orders?” “Sure.”​

While Scientologists religiously study and apply the above sociopathic mandates, they do it in the absolute belief that they are protecting "the power source". The power source is L. Ron Hubbard. He awarded himself the cosmic title of "Source" in bulletins, policies, directives, taped lectures and org boards. He even released an abominably horrific music album titled "The Power Of Source". Only He is the "source" of all Scientologists' personal power, which is why they are required to "send a power flow (money) uplines to Source".

If "Source" was really the source of a Scientologist's power, why does source require that Scientologist's forfeit all their time, power and money to HIM? LOL.


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Also, the cult has for a long time pushed money money money as the most important thing and in a way that cuts their own throat. No one wants to join the sea org or be an auditor, they want to be a big time IAS donator.
.
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Excellent point!

The "ideal scene" for Scientologists climbing their "Bridge to total freedom" is to be a rich donor or a movie star.

Those are the two (2) most praised, validated, cheered, admired, privileged and celebrated "big beings" in Scientology. Movie stars and celebrities rank far higher than than mere check writers---because they not only donate millions--they also donate their celebrity recognition, endorsement and entire reputation to cult leaders in order to help them scam others so that Commodores & COBs can live a billionaire lifestyle.

This is the religion of Scientology! Buddhists have Buddha's enlightenment as the holiest of holies. Christians have Jesus' grace, infinite love and forgiveness. Scientologists likewise worship the spirituality of upstat actors whose movies generate blockbuster revenues or lapel pins that demonstrably evidence the exact amount of dollars that the bearer has donated to Scientology's guru du jour.

PREDICTION: In the near future Scientology will cut to the chase and replace their IAS lapel pins with an oversized platinum medallion that every Scientologist is required to wear, bearing two diamond dollar signs and diamond-encrusted numbers evidencing the exact amount of cash they have thus far donated mankind's only hope (e.g. $ 747.456.42 $)

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There is a way to get to the bottom of this distrust.
Sea Org personnel have learned to monetize the suspicion
FIND THEIR CRIMES !
Sec Check the living daylights out of one and all for years !
Make them run False Purpose Rundown on all 8 dynamics for YEARS to flush out their EVIL.

Senior Executive Tom Ashworth was forced to run his evil on 8 dynamics at INT Base RPF for some years and went in to the full blown mental breakdown
~~ what they call "Type 3". He subsequently left it all behind and was at a recent Las Vegas re-union.

Scientology induced psychiatric condition.

WHILE


They critique psychiatry !
 
Awesome thread.

It's another reminder that the only compassion exhibited by scn in any way comes from individuals within the group exhibiting compassion. Compassion is otherwise not condoned or encouraged by policy. In fact, the opposite is true. Being ruthlessly hard on people is. Punishing people is. Whenever I would hear "Rewards and Penalties" apply, what that really meant was here comes the torture. Even when your stats are up, you can get hit.

I think that there must be some other oddly shaped disorder that is a variant of Stockholm Syndrome that exists that keeps the truly beleaguered in in in.
 
I just had a win reading the thread title...
I call it a win because I finally can answer the question.

Will the penny drop in the Sea Org?
No, because the Sea Orger's are broke and have no pennies. (They are slaves)
Sad... but true.
 
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