What is Rhetoric?

programmer_guy

True ex-Scientologist
sorry to lead you guys goes on, hubbard never used rhetoric, it was all Crowley's Magic and AESP's, probably some hypnosis too.
Yes, Hubbard used rhetoric (his pseudo-science) but that is only one part of the story.
You might consider adding brain neuro-science (about auditing) to your list of things to read about and consider.
 
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Riddick

I clap to no man
Some asshole in highschool was badgering me. He got in my face one time and I cold cocked him. He walked around school for a week with a black eye. Problem solved. Rhetoric unnecessary.
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
It's kind of funny, but not really. When you look at the big picture. Hubbard sold his rhetoric books and lectures thru his outlets known as Dianetic centers and scientology orgs, they were called bookstore officers. Hubbard made royalty commissions on each book sold, that's how he made money as a writer.

First there was the Dianetics book, any 2 people can clear themselves by reading and applying Dianetic principles. Then there was Scientology, a applied religious philosophy, where one can go OT and be free from the bondage of flesh and be a free being, a soul.

Here's the sad part, nobody went clear and nobody has gone OT or returned from past life.
 

Zertel

Well-known member
The case might be made that all "Knowledge" is transferred through words and symbols. Regardless of whether said knowledge is true, some of it persists over time through rhetoric or force. Scientific materialism or realism says if it can't be verified by "state of the art" instruments and measurement it's not valid but state of the art will be much different in the future. I need to get back out in the garage and spend some time in my Regeneration Chamber so I can figure this out.
 
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Riddick

I clap to no man
Anybody can type into google "3 parts of rhetoric" and connect dots, if you will.

You have to ask yourself, how did hubbard use ethos, pathos and ethos? And did you fall for his rhetoric? I did.

Did you fall for the ARC triangle or the Rhetoric triangle?

I fell for the ARC triangle when I was a scientologist for I knew nothing about the rhetoric triangle. Maybe now you know.
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation.
Anybody can type into google "3 parts of rhetoric" and connect dots, if you will.

You have to ask yourself, how did hubbard use ethos, pathos and ethos? And did you fall for his rhetoric? I did.

Did you fall for the ARC triangle or the Rhetoric triangle?

I fell for the ARC triangle when I was a scientologist for I knew nothing about the rhetoric triangle. Maybe now you know.




YES! WE DO KNOW ... WE DO WE DO WE DO WE DO ... WE DO KNOW!!!!!!!!!!

WE GET IT ... I SUSPECT WE GOT IT THE VERY FIRST TIME YOU MENTIONED IT ABOUT 7 YEARS AGO.


:dizzy:

:faceslap:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member


YES! WE DO KNOW ... WE DO WE DO WE DO WE DO ... WE DO KNOW!!!!!!!!!!

WE GET IT ... I SUSPECT WE GOT IT THE VERY FIRST TIME YOU MENTIONED IT ABOUT 7 YEARS AGO.


:dizzy:

:faceslap:
...


LOL

The problem I have with "everything Hubbard/Scientology did was rhetoric" is this. . .

Rhetoric is the art of persuasion, in speech and writing. But. . . .

There are so many other methods of persuasion!

I could list an enormous number of them but just for an example. . .

How about a SILENT MOVIE?

How about a PAINTING?

How about an INSTRUMENTAL SONG?

How about someone coming up to you on the street and pointing a gun in your gut and demanding your money, phone and your watch--or your life. Isn't that persuasive? LOL

Rhetoric is like naming one of the forces of nature that wears things down. Like ocean waves eroding and smoothing out sharp rocks over time.

But there are so many other ways to "persuade" things to crumble and fall apart. Bacteria can do that. So can a hurricane. So can ambitiously wielded sledgehammers.

SUMMARY: Hubbard sometimes used rhetoric. And the rest of the time, other persuasive gimmicks.

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Type4_PTS

Well-known member
How about someone coming up to you on the street and pointing a gun in your gut and demanding your money, phone and your watch--or your life. Isn't that persuasive? LOL
It IS pretty persuasive. And in that situation, I'd assign the person with a gun a condition of Enemy or maybe even lower, and help him through the conditions into Non-Existence or Normal.
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
It IS pretty persuasive. And in that situation, I'd assign the person with a gun a condition of Enemy or maybe even lower, and help him through the conditions into Non-Existence or Normal.
Make certain that you've got a good range of dictionaries so that you can do some much needed Standard Word Clearing for this terminal.
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
If Dr.Hubbard's lecture or bulletin didn't persuade you initially, you will be word cleared and harassed until you are persuaded.

that's very true. But one was also persuaded by the emeter, success stories, stats, etc. Those were the logos of rhetoric. Logos is an appeal to logic.

 

Riddick

I clap to no man
that's very true. But one was also persuaded by the emeter, success stories, stats, etc. Those were the logos of rhetoric. Logos is an appeal to logic.

Does anybody know of the appeal to pathos or ethos by Hubbard?
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
that's very true. But one was also persuaded by the emeter, success stories, stats, etc. Those were the logos of rhetoric. Logos is an appeal to logic.
What about people that were persuaded to do Scientology because they saw Tom Cruise's jumbo-age-of-glitz MEDALLION? Or the time he saluted COB on stage, because it reminded them of the movie TOP GUN? Those things are rhetoric too? lol

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Riddick

I clap to no man
What about people that were persuaded to do Scientology because they saw Tom Cruise's jumbo-age-of-glitz MEDALLION? Or the time he saluted COB on stage, because it reminded them of the movie TOP GUN? Those things are rhetoric too? lol

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yep, those are. They are appeals to pathos (emotions) and ethos (status, character).
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
yep, those are. They are appeals to pathos (emotions) and ethos (status, character).
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I am curious. Is it your belief that every form of persuasion (in addition to the traditional written/spoken means) is also necessarily rhetoric? I've never witnessed any definition of "rhetoric" that claims that all forms of persuasion are rhetoric. That seems to be significantly at odds with Aristotle's definition of "rhetoric".

"Aristotle defined rhetoric as the 'ability to discover the available means of persuasion' in each of the three kinds of oratory: deliberative, judicial and epideictic."

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Riddick

I clap to no man
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I am curious. Is it your belief that every form of persuasion (other than written/spoken) is necessarily rhetoric? I've never witnessed any definition of "rhetoric" that claims that all forms of persuasion are, by definition, rhetoric. That seems to be significantly at odds with Aristotle's definition of "rhetoric".

"Aristotle defined rhetoric as the 'ability to discover the available means of persuasion' in each of the three kinds of oratory: deliberative, judicial and epideictic."

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you are quoting the general definition, you have to look at the 3 means of rhetoric, used by hubbard overall in the big scheme as well as the smaller scheme's. Each book, each lecture, everything has elements of rhetoric.

"How to Use Aristotle's Three Main Rhetorical Styles. According to Aristotle, rhetoric is: "the ability, in each particular case, to see the available means of persuasion." He described three main forms of rhetoric: Ethos, Logos, and Pathos. "
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
Ethos is about establishing your authority to speak on the subject, logos is your logical argument for your point and pathos is your attempt to sway an audience emotionally.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
you are quoting the general definition, you have to look at the 3 means of rhetoric, used by hubbard overall in the big scheme as well as the smaller scheme's. Each book, each lecture, everything has elements of rhetoric.

"How to Use Aristotle's Three Main Rhetorical Styles. According to Aristotle, rhetoric is: "the ability, in each particular case, to see the available means of persuasion." He described three main forms of rhetoric: Ethos, Logos, and Pathos. "
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I don't understand your answer. Are you saying that although Aristotle narrowly used the word rhetoric to describe written/oratorial persuasion, he actually meant that ALL methods of persuasion (other than written/verbal) should also be added to the definition of the term rhetoric?

Isn't that like a dictionary giving a definition for the word "moon" and then adding a footnote that all similarly shaped round objects like planets, stars and basketballs were all "moons"—if people felt like calling them that?

I do understand that you are allegorically interpreting the word rhetoric to extend far beyond its actual definition, but that is not the same as defining what the word actually means. You could clear this up if you cited any dictionary definition of the word "rhetoric" in which all forms of persuasion are necessarily the same as "rhetoric".
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Riddick

I clap to no man
Ever wonder why Hubbard called the Sea Org staff members the most ethical people on the planet. It was for establishing ethos, one mean of persuasion. He also established a EO, Ethic's Officer, in each Mission and Scientology org.

 
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