Scientology experience: pros and cons

[Dygong]

• I was a part of Scientology many years ago. I was only there for a couple of years. I did learn many helpful and worthwhile things. But, I was also mismanaged, and ill-guided. It was this mistreatment that led to my departure.
• While I do still believe in reincarnation, and the spirit/thetan, I don’t believe in the approach of Scientology.
• I had a life changing experience 4 years after Scientology. I saw my mother as a spirit. Within an hour after my mother’s death, she visited me. This was no delusion. I had no information to tell me that she had died, and she had no illness to forecast her death. So, I know that we are more than our bodies. We live on. This event got me thinking of Scientology. It would be lovely to retain memories between lifetimes. But, how can anyone know that you’d really gain this ability through Scientology? Where’s the evidence? If anyone has any evidence, please let me know.
• I was drawn into Scientology when I was 20, in the year 2001. I was young impressionable, and clueless. But it did teach me a few things. From the tech, reading LRH and time in my local org: I developed the beginnings of self-awareness. This awareness, after Scientology, grew on its own with thought, self-exploration and time. Whilst in Scientology, the most important thing I learnt was ‘what is true, is what’s true for you’. But, at the same time, I was told to avoid all anti-Scientology press. And I was “handled” if I encountered any negative press.
• Over time I have learned to trust my feelings and instincts. If something feels wrong, it usually is wrong. If something feels not quite right, then I know I’ve got to dig deeper until I find the correct solution. When something feels right and true, it’s like the clouds part, and it’s a clear sunny day. I believe I have developed an internal e-meter. I can detect my own floating needle and a blowing of charge, lol. I will say this for Scientology, I had never experienced that ‘clear’ feeling before studying tech and processing.
• But, there are many ways that Scientology is mismanaged. They try to hide the truth. And they try to bully people into their way of thinking. They convince the world and themselves that their prior and current overts don’t exist. This all goes against the freedom that it tries to impart on people. It’s only when we have ALL the facts, when we can make up our own minds, that we can be truly ‘clear’. I believe I have now read enough accounts, far and wide, for and against, to be able to make up my own mind. I’m getting that ‘feeling’ that I know the answer. Most of Scientology is good and helpful. But, at some point in the distant past, it and many of its people deviated from its own tenets, which have led to a snowballing of bad decisions. This is why Scientology is not succeeding like it could. There are far too many overts that have been covered up or denied. Scientology would have more success if mistakes were admitted to, aired and addressed.
• Society is very flawed. Governments are flawed. People are flawed. There is no right, except for what is right for you. Other people’s, and other authorities’ opinions don’t mean a thing. It is our own personal truths that matter the most.
• I realised that LRH got something very right. We are all made from the same stuff. The dynamics and its rings of influence show one thing clearly, we are all connected. We all share, to greater and lesser degrees, each other’s virtues and maladies. LRH, his family, David Miscavige, everyone; is, has been, and will continue to be human. We make mistakes. We pay for ours, and other’s mistakes collectively. Every success raises us all by a fraction. Equally, every hurt diminishes us all by a fraction. Ugly acts cannot be hidden and refuted. To paraphrase LRH, they must be ‘as-ised’ to nullify their influence. I think the only way Scientology can survive is if it airs its dirty laundry and takes responsibility for its actions. That key word ‘responsibility’ has the most meaning. Again, paraphrasing LRH, it is only through taking responsibility for everything that we develop true power. Otherwise the good that Scientology intends, can only be overshadowed by its cancerous elements. Cancer created from trying to keep truths hidden. And, as we all know, when you try to contain a cancer, it only makes it grow and spread. To address a cancer, you must tackle it head on, not try to hide it, dress it up, or call it something else. Remember, LRH talked about the 5 ways to address a problem. It would seem that LRH and Miscavige have hidden from their truths, rather than facing them. While there is so much good that could be done by Scientology, it cannot live up to its full potential while it is being hypocritical to its own teachings. A guiding principle to individuals and groups, would be to admit your faults/transgressions so that you can move past them. Only then can we grow and do good in the world. Casting fallacious blame at others does no good. The truth will always come out. And when it comes out by external means, it is all the more damaging.
• The whole SP/PTS thing is over the top. I seriously think the ideas of Scientology management are a bit screwy. What with the whole criteria for the declaration of SPs and PTS. So many people in Scientology are flawed, misguided and actively misleading others. But, what I don’t understand is: how come the tech and processing hasn’t detected this. How come it hasn’t used ethics to solve the situation? The only answer I can come up with is: many people (Miscavige included) have overts, that they just aren’t willing to face. But, that also raises another question: how do these people continue to make case gain? Maybe they don’t, or maybe it’s just slower than it normally would be. Who knows?
• I’ve read that LRH died of several strokes. I think this is true. I think it’s possible that his investigations into the higher OT levels caused these strokes. Caused by too much charge, causing too much strain on the body. I think part of the problem was that he had too many overts that he couldn’t/wouldn’t as-is. One example would be the awful treatment of his family. If you consider an overt as a magnet, a lightning rod, a sticking point for charge. If you handle more and more charge as you go up the bridge, then overts would, concurrently, become more and more deadly. Just a theory. But it feels right somehow.

 

[stratty]

• I was a part of Scientology many years ago. I was only there for a couple of years. I did learn many helpful and worthwhile things. But, I was also mismanaged, and ill-guided. It was this mistreatment that led to my departure.
• While I do still believe in reincarnation, and the spirit/thetan, I don’t believe in the approach of Scientology.
• I had a life changing experience 4 years after Scientology. I saw my mother as a spirit. Within an hour after my mother’s death, she visited me. This was no delusion. I had no information to tell me that she had died, and she had no illness to forecast her death. So, I know that we are more than our bodies. We live on. This event got me thinking of Scientology. It would be lovely to retain memories between lifetimes. But, how can anyone know that you’d really gain this ability through Scientology? Where’s the evidence? If anyone has any evidence, please let me know.
• I was drawn into Scientology when I was 20, in the year 2001. I was young impressionable, and clueless. But it did teach me a few things. From the tech, reading LRH and time in my local org: I developed the beginnings of self-awareness. This awareness, after Scientology, grew on its own with thought, self-exploration and time. Whilst in Scientology, the most important thing I learnt was ‘what is true, is what’s true for you’. But, at the same time, I was told to avoid all anti-Scientology press. And I was “handled” if I encountered any negative press.
• Over time I have learned to trust my feelings and instincts. If something feels wrong, it usually is wrong. If something feels not quite right, then I know I’ve got to dig deeper until I find the correct solution. When something feels right and true, it’s like the clouds part, and it’s a clear sunny day. I believe I have developed an internal e-meter. I can detect my own floating needle and a blowing of charge, lol. I will say this for Scientology, I had never experienced that ‘clear’ feeling before studying tech and processing.
• But, there are many ways that Scientology is mismanaged. They try to hide the truth. And they try to bully people into their way of thinking. They convince the world and themselves that their prior and current overts don’t exist. This all goes against the freedom that it tries to impart on people. It’s only when we have ALL the facts, when we can make up our own minds, that we can be truly ‘clear’. I believe I have now read enough accounts, far and wide, for and against, to be able to make up my own mind. I’m getting that ‘feeling’ that I know the answer. Most of Scientology is good and helpful. But, at some point in the distant past, it and many of its people deviated from its own tenets, which have led to a snowballing of bad decisions. This is why Scientology is not succeeding like it could. There are far too many overts that have been covered up or denied. Scientology would have more success if mistakes were admitted to, aired and addressed.
• Society is very flawed. Governments are flawed. People are flawed. There is no right, except for what is right for you. Other people’s, and other authorities’ opinions don’t mean a thing. It is our own personal truths that matter the most.
• I realised that LRH got something very right. We are all made from the same stuff. The dynamics and its rings of influence show one thing clearly, we are all connected. We all share, to greater and lesser degrees, each other’s virtues and maladies. LRH, his family, David Miscavige, everyone; is, has been, and will continue to be human. We make mistakes. We pay for ours, and other’s mistakes collectively. Every success raises us all by a fraction. Equally, every hurt diminishes us all by a fraction. Ugly acts cannot be hidden and refuted. To paraphrase LRH, they must be ‘as-ised’ to nullify their influence. I think the only way Scientology can survive is if it airs its dirty laundry and takes responsibility for its actions. That key word ‘responsibility’ has the most meaning. Again, paraphrasing LRH, it is only through taking responsibility for everything that we develop true power. Otherwise the good that Scientology intends, can only be overshadowed by its cancerous elements. Cancer created from trying to keep truths hidden. And, as we all know, when you try to contain a cancer, it only makes it grow and spread. To address a cancer, you must tackle it head on, not try to hide it, dress it up, or call it something else. Remember, LRH talked about the 5 ways to address a problem. It would seem that LRH and Miscavige have hidden from their truths, rather than facing them. While there is so much good that could be done by Scientology, it cannot live up to its full potential while it is being hypocritical to its own teachings. A guiding principle to individuals and groups, would be to admit your faults/transgressions so that you can move past them. Only then can we grow and do good in the world. Casting fallacious blame at others does no good. The truth will always come out. And when it comes out by external means, it is all the more damaging.
• The whole SP/PTS thing is over the top. I seriously think the ideas of Scientology management are a bit screwy. What with the whole criteria for the declaration of SPs and PTS. So many people in Scientology are flawed, misguided and actively misleading others. But, what I don’t understand is: how come the tech and processing hasn’t detected this. How come it hasn’t used ethics to solve the situation? The only answer I can come up with is: many people (Miscavige included) have overts, that they just aren’t willing to face. But, that also raises another question: how do these people continue to make case gain? Maybe they don’t, or maybe it’s just slower than it normally would be. Who knows?
• I’ve read that LRH died of several strokes. I think this is true. I think it’s possible that his investigations into the higher OT levels caused these strokes. Caused by too much charge, causing too much strain on the body. I think part of the problem was that he had too many overts that he couldn’t/wouldn’t as-is. One example would be the awful treatment of his family. If you consider an overt as a magnet, a lightning rod, a sticking point for charge. If you handle more and more charge as you go up the bridge, then overts would, concurrently, become more and more deadly. Just a theory. But it feels right somehow.

You sound like you are on some kind of spiritual journey, and so whatever it is you are looking for I sincerely hope that you manage to find it, but one thing is pretty clear to me, you won't find it in scientology. You mention overts, witholds. OT's, as-is and some other scientology terminology and seem to regard them as real. They are not real, they are simply imaginary things Hubbard invented as part of his mind-bending cult and I believe the sooner you rid your mind of all that stuff, the better. Just my two cents worth. Good luck on your quest.

 

[Dygong]

Thank you Stratty
I'll put you firmly in the cons section of the thread. For both meanings of the word.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

.
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Dygong posted:
"I’ve read that LRH died of several strokes. I think this is true. I think it’s possible that his investigations into the higher OT levels caused these strokes. Caused by too much charge, causing too much strain on the body."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

There is much scientific evidence of the tragic phenomena you describe, wherein a Scientologist's physical body is besieged by disease and critical illness---due to their pursuit of ADVANCED LEVEL knowledge & powers that is the very subject of OT levels. ​

​

Hubbard was not alone. I have personally known other Scientologists who became gravely ill and even died as a result of their contact with the life-threatening secrets contained on the UPPER OT LEVELS and other similarly advanced Hubbard discoveries.​

​

For example, a staff member who had attained Class VIII and OT VIII was nonetheless stricken with cancer and they died. One could speculate that then "pulled in" or "were bumping into" OT IX; however, the truth is simpler than that. Their "investigations into the higher OT levels" also informed them of Dr. Hubbard's discovery that cancer is caused by "....not smoking enough cigarettes". Thus, they increased from two packs a day to four packs, which was Ron's successful action. ​

​

So this confirms your theory that contacting advanced levels cause life-threatening disease---but not in the way you had hoped. ​

​

​

.​

​

 

[Dygong]

Their "investigations into the higher OT levels" also informed them of Dr. Hubbard's discovery that cancer is caused by "....not smoking enough cigarettes". Thus, they increased from two packs a day to four packs, which was Ron's successful action.

LOL, brilliant!

 

[Chuck J.]

• I was a part of Scientology many years ago. I was only there for a couple of years. I did learn many helpful and worthwhile things. But, I was also mismanaged, and ill-guided. It was this mistreatment that led to my departure.
• While I do still believe in reincarnation, and the spirit/thetan, I don’t believe in the approach of Scientology.
• I had a life changing experience 4 years after Scientology. I saw my mother as a spirit. Within an hour after my mother’s death, she visited me. This was no delusion. I had no information to tell me that she had died, and she had no illness to forecast her death. So, I know that we are more than our bodies. We live on. This event got me thinking of Scientology. It would be lovely to retain memories between lifetimes. But, how can anyone know that you’d really gain this ability through Scientology? Where’s the evidence? If anyone has any evidence, please let me know.
• I was drawn into Scientology when I was 20, in the year 2001. I was young impressionable, and clueless. But it did teach me a few things. From the tech, reading LRH and time in my local org: I developed the beginnings of self-awareness. This awareness, after Scientology, grew on its own with thought, self-exploration and time. Whilst in Scientology, the most important thing I learnt was ‘what is true, is what’s true for you’. But, at the same time, I was told to avoid all anti-Scientology press. And I was “handled” if I encountered any negative press.
• Over time I have learned to trust my feelings and instincts. If something feels wrong, it usually is wrong. If something feels not quite right, then I know I’ve got to dig deeper until I find the correct solution. When something feels right and true, it’s like the clouds part, and it’s a clear sunny day. I believe I have developed an internal e-meter. I can detect my own floating needle and a blowing of charge, lol. I will say this for Scientology, I had never experienced that ‘clear’ feeling before studying tech and processing.
• But, there are many ways that Scientology is mismanaged. They try to hide the truth. And they try to bully people into their way of thinking. They convince the world and themselves that their prior and current overts don’t exist. This all goes against the freedom that it tries to impart on people. It’s only when we have ALL the facts, when we can make up our own minds, that we can be truly ‘clear’. I believe I have now read enough accounts, far and wide, for and against, to be able to make up my own mind. I’m getting that ‘feeling’ that I know the answer. Most of Scientology is good and helpful. But, at some point in the distant past, it and many of its people deviated from its own tenets, which have led to a snowballing of bad decisions. This is why Scientology is not succeeding like it could. There are far too many overts that have been covered up or denied. Scientology would have more success if mistakes were admitted to, aired and addressed.
• Society is very flawed. Governments are flawed. People are flawed. There is no right, except for what is right for you. Other people’s, and other authorities’ opinions don’t mean a thing. It is our own personal truths that matter the most.
• I realised that LRH got something very right. We are all made from the same stuff. The dynamics and its rings of influence show one thing clearly, we are all connected. We all share, to greater and lesser degrees, each other’s virtues and maladies. LRH, his family, David Miscavige, everyone; is, has been, and will continue to be human. We make mistakes. We pay for ours, and other’s mistakes collectively. Every success raises us all by a fraction. Equally, every hurt diminishes us all by a fraction. Ugly acts cannot be hidden and refuted. To paraphrase LRH, they must be ‘as-ised’ to nullify their influence. I think the only way Scientology can survive is if it airs its dirty laundry and takes responsibility for its actions. That key word ‘responsibility’ has the most meaning. Again, paraphrasing LRH, it is only through taking responsibility for everything that we develop true power. Otherwise the good that Scientology intends, can only be overshadowed by its cancerous elements. Cancer created from trying to keep truths hidden. And, as we all know, when you try to contain a cancer, it only makes it grow and spread. To address a cancer, you must tackle it head on, not try to hide it, dress it up, or call it something else. Remember, LRH talked about the 5 ways to address a problem. It would seem that LRH and Miscavige have hidden from their truths, rather than facing them. While there is so much good that could be done by Scientology, it cannot live up to its full potential while it is being hypocritical to its own teachings. A guiding principle to individuals and groups, would be to admit your faults/transgressions so that you can move past them. Only then can we grow and do good in the world. Casting fallacious blame at others does no good. The truth will always come out. And when it comes out by external means, it is all the more damaging.
• The whole SP/PTS thing is over the top. I seriously think the ideas of Scientology management are a bit screwy. What with the whole criteria for the declaration of SPs and PTS. So many people in Scientology are flawed, misguided and actively misleading others. But, what I don’t understand is: how come the tech and processing hasn’t detected this. How come it hasn’t used ethics to solve the situation? The only answer I can come up with is: many people (Miscavige included) have overts, that they just aren’t willing to face. But, that also raises another question: how do these people continue to make case gain? Maybe they don’t, or maybe it’s just slower than it normally would be. Who knows?
• I’ve read that LRH died of several strokes. I think this is true. I think it’s possible that his investigations into the higher OT levels caused these strokes. Caused by too much charge, causing too much strain on the body. I think part of the problem was that he had too many overts that he couldn’t/wouldn’t as-is. One example would be the awful treatment of his family. If you consider an overt as a magnet, a lightning rod, a sticking point for charge. If you handle more and more charge as you go up the bridge, then overts would, concurrently, become more and more deadly. Just a theory. But it feels right somehow.

Hubbard died because he was an overweight unhealthy sedentary man who smoked too much, drank too much, took a lot drugs and didn't take care of his teeth.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Deleted member 51]

You write like a Scientologist who has been a staff member for many years promoting what you believe are its good points to people who have had problems with the organization or who might have questions.

If this is true, well done. You’ve covered nearly every general point of spirituality within the population and managed to find a way to tie it to agreement with Scientology and also covered most of the common disagreements with Scientology in such a way that Scientology is also presented as the very cure for the problems it creates. Sensational job. Really. It reminded me of President Trump expressing sympathies for Joe Biden’s sexual assault allegations.

If you’re not advertising Scientology here and that idea is entirely wrong, then again, well done. You came here to discuss these ideas with us and you came to the right place. Welcome, either way.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

I’ve read that LRH died of several strokes. I think this is true. I think it’s possible that his investigations into the higher OT levels caused these strokes. Caused by too much charge, causing too much strain on the body.

Let me clue you in on something . . . the tech he created did
not work on LRH himself to save him from mental or physical
deterioration as he aged. This is in direct conflict with what
he promised all of us for 35 years. Sorry about that.

We know Hubbard invented a so-called “science,” but how did he end up himself? I can only go by the actual outcomes it produced in him.​

​

Hubbard was very physically ill on and off from about 1968 to his death in 1986 (ages 57 to 75). Much more so than most people his age. He suffered from multiple bouts of pneumonia yearly at one time (admitted in a personal letter), heart attacks, strokes, pancreatitis (taken to hospital in early ’85 for a very bad attack . . . could not walk by himself), among other things.​

​

From age 64 on, he exhibited early signs of dementia or senility. I’m not a doctor so I can’t exactly describe it . . . but he had it. Something going on there. (From my readings of posts and discussions with people who worked directly with him face to face. Also, his personal doctor, Denk, has said as much, as corroborated by Bill Franks.) He suffered from an uncontrollable temper and rages as he got older.​

​

He wished to die in 1985 and attempted to take his life in November, so we’re told by his close friend and confidant, Sarge. In 1986, he volitionally withheld proper medical treatment at a hospital for a stroke or two, so he would die.​

Source: ESMB post by ILove2Lurk​

That last would be referred to as an "assisted suicide."
Instead of rushing to a hospital to be saved by medical
treatment, he chose just to stay in his motor home for
days until he passed away.

It made me very sad to learn all this over the years. I got
over it though. I wouldn't say it's a particularly easy truth
to confront though, especially if one's spent a lot of time
and money for all this. Nothing like dashing life-long hopes
and dreams.

A lot of revelations are in the book Going Clear by Lawrence
Wright. A good overview and place to begin looking for truth.

 

[Karakorum]

Hi and welcome to the forums.

The whole SP/PTS thing is over the top. I seriously think the ideas of Scientology management are a bit screwy. What with the whole criteria for the declaration of SPs and PTS. So many people in Scientology are flawed, misguided and actively misleading others. But, what I don’t understand is: how come the tech and processing hasn’t detected this. How come it hasn’t used ethics to solve the situation? The only answer I can come up with is: many people (Miscavige included) have overts, that they just aren’t willing to face. But, that also raises another question: how do these people continue to make case gain? Maybe they don’t, or maybe it’s just slower than it normally would be.

A "bit screwy" is a very, very mild and polite way to put it.

The admin tech... It just doesn't function and cannot be beaten into shape. I've worked with some really intelligent hard-working people trying to "make it go right" and it never did despite anyone's efforts and attempts.
Hubbard's structure with the watchdog committee was already clunky and bloated, Dave just added his own parallel RTC command structure on top of it, which just made it 3 times worse.

It doesn't even work that well for the people at the top management. RTC is shrinking and people are hiding in the corners cowering in fear. Dave may be the biggest man on the chessboard... but he's still just a man on the chessboard. Dave doesn't believe in the tech and is not getting auditing, let alone getting sec-checked. He's not making any "case gain" at all and he doesn't seem to be planning to. He's just busy squeezing more money out of the big donors and planning to keep the CoS stable in a "managed decline" until his death.
He's also utterly ruined his own family at this point and no amount of money will fix that. I'm not sure he's even happy now.

I realised that LRH got something very right.

I think that you will find that many members here (me including) had very negative experiences with scientology and some might react pretty strongly whenever anything positive is mentioned about Hubbard or scientology.

 

[Dygong]

You write like a Scientologist who has been a staff member for many years promoting what you believe are its good points to people who have had problems with the organization or who might have questions.

If this is true, well done. You’ve covered nearly every general point of spirituality within the population and managed to find a way to tie it to agreement with Scientology and also covered most of the common disagreements with Scientology in such a way that Scientology is also presented as the very cure for the problems it creates. Sensational job. Really. It reminded me of President Trump expressing sympathies for Joe Biden’s sexual assault allegations.

If you’re not advertising Scientology here and that idea is entirely wrong, then again, well done. You came here to discuss these ideas with us and you came to the right place. Welcome, either way.

Hi Sheila
Yes, i was a staff member for about 6 months. I couldn't stand the stat pushing, tyrannical management, low pay and stupidly long hours longer than that. It was a wake up call.
I believe that much Scientology management is corrupt. I believe that a lot of poor people have been brainwashed and estranged from their loving families. I believe that people have been manipulated into losing their time, money, dignity and status. I believe that too many people have been programmed to take abuse, and to believe that it is right, when it is dead wrong. This is all wrong in the extreme. But many of the principle goals that Scientology has advertised are worthy goals. The problems are that people like Hubbard and Miscavage have perverted those goals and profited from the natural human need to better him/herself.
I was a selfish prick when i was in my late teens. But learning and experiencing a few things from Scientology allowed me to become self aware and a better person. But, unlike so many others, that self awareness made me question Scientology too. I learned to trust my gut. And my gut said their was something wrong in my org, and in the way Scientology was being run.
The idea of an organised and powerful organisation, whose goal is to save mankind from itself is fantastic. I just wish it was a reality.

 

[Dygong]

Hi and welcome to the forums.


A "bit screwy" is a very, very mild and polite way to put it.

The admin tech... It just doesn't function and cannot be beaten into shape. I've worked with some really intelligent hard-working people trying to "make it go right" and it never did despite anyone's efforts and attempts.
Hubbard's structure with the watchdog committee was already clunky and bloated, Dave just added his own parallel RTC command structure on top of it, which just made it 3 times worse.

It doesn't even work that well for the people at the top management. RTC is shrinking and people are hiding in the corners cowering in fear. Dave may be the biggest man on the chessboard... but he's still just a man on the chessboard. Dave doesn't believe in the tech and is not getting auditing, let alone getting sec-checked. He's not making any "case gain" at all and he doesn't seem to be planning to. He's just busy squeezing more money out of the big donors and planning to keep the CoS stable in a "managed decline" until his death.
He's also utterly ruined his own family at this point and no amount of money will fix that. I'm not sure he's even happy now.



I think that you will find that many members here (me including) had very negative experiences with scientology and some might react pretty strongly whenever anything positive is mentioned about Hubbard or scientology.

Hi Karak
Please read my reply to Sheila. I think it should be a reply to you too.
With regard to Miscavage: i don't know everything about him. He seems to have committed some horrible crimes against a lot of people. And he seems to be pulling the strings of Scientology like a mini tyrant. My feeling about him is that he started out, as a kid, to be a believer in the advertised image of Scientology. But, somewhere along the line, he got twisted and sucked into some of the cruel base realities of Scientology. You can see on his face that he's a rage monster, waiting to explode. Rage caused by the many transgressions that he has committed, but tries to deny or hide from. One of the management at my old org had exactly the same feeling about him... scary. LRH discovered a lot of truths about humanity, but he used them too much for his own gain, and not enough for humanity. The good that he did was outweighed by the bad. The important discoveries that he made were tainted by the corruption of power and celebrity. The lies that live the longest are those that have a grain of truth. LRH discovered a lot of truths, but they were the grains of truth inside much bigger lies. The lies were his intentions. The lies were the departures from his own advertised ethical codes, that he covered up or explained away.
Most of the people in this forum have experienced far worse than i have, thanks to the decaying colossus of Scientology. I hope it hasn't embittered them away from the drive for betterment, for self and for others. Out of all the bad, i have come away lucky. I have come away a better person. I believe that the people here are good people, who have been wronged.

 

[Dygong]

Let me clue you in on something . . . the tech he created did
not work on LRH himself to save him from mental or physical
deterioration as he aged. This is in direct conflict with what
he promised all of us for 35 years. Sorry about that.

We know Hubbard invented a so-called “science,” but how did he end up himself? I can only go by the actual outcomes it produced in him.​

​

Hubbard was very physically ill on and off from about 1968 to his death in 1986 (ages 57 to 75). Much more so than most people his age. He suffered from multiple bouts of pneumonia yearly at one time (admitted in a personal letter), heart attacks, strokes, pancreatitis (taken to hospital in early ’85 for a very bad attack . . . could not walk by himself), among other things.​

​

From age 64 on, he exhibited early signs of dementia or senility. I’m not a doctor so I can’t exactly describe it . . . but he had it. Something going on there. (From my readings of posts and discussions with people who worked directly with him face to face. Also, his personal doctor, Denk, has said as much, as corroborated by Bill Franks.) He suffered from an uncontrollable temper and rages as he got older.​

​

He wished to die in 1985 and attempted to take his life in November, so we’re told by his close friend and confidant, Sarge. In 1986, he volitionally withheld proper medical treatment at a hospital for a stroke or two, so he would die.​

Source: ESMB post by ILove2Lurk​

That last would be referred to as an "assisted suicide."
Instead of rushing to a hospital to be saved by medical
treatment, he chose just to stay in his motor home for
days until he passed away.

It made me very sad to learn all this over the years. I got
over it though. I wouldn't say it's a particularly easy truth
to confront though, especially if one's spent a lot of time
and money for all this. Nothing like dashing life-long hopes
and dreams.

A lot of revelations are in the book Going Clear by Lawrence
Wright. A good overview and place to begin looking for truth.

Thanks Lisbeth
It's always better to have all the information. I suppose everything should be treated like historians treat history, from all perspectives. LRH is now a part of history. But, he won't be remembered as a great man. He'll be remembered as a great con-man. It's a shame that he didn't follow his own preaching. If he had followed his own preaching, and if he had been completely transparent and altruistic, then he could have provided a lasting good for the world. And now there is a powerful organisation, with many well intentioned fools being controlled by corrupt management. An organisation that could have been used for good.
I'm forced to ask the question: is it humanity's lot in life to succumb to corruption in all walks of life?

 

[Karakorum]

I couldn't stand the stat pushing, tyrannical management, low pay and stupidly long hours longer than that. It was a wake up call.
I believe that much Scientology management is corrupt. I believe that a lot of poor people have been brainwashed and estranged from their loving families. I believe that people have been manipulated into losing their time, money, dignity and status. I believe that too many people have been programmed to take abuse, and to believe that it is right, when it is dead wrong. This is all wrong in the extreme. But many of the principle goals that Scientology has advertised are worthy goals. The problems are that people like Hubbard and Miscavage have perverted those goals and profited from the natural human need to better him/herself.

I agree with all you wrote. I can just add that on the continental level the management is not corrupt and gets the same nonsense people below get. At that level you get exactly "stat pushing, tyrannical management, low pay and stupidly long hours", only its even worse by some 15% or so. Especially the amount of work and long hours. I worked some long hours while on staff, but only in the SO did I get the "joy" of sleeping 4 hours a night for weeks on end.

With regard to Miscavage: i don't know everything about him. He seems to have committed some horrible crimes against a lot of people. And he seems to be pulling the strings of Scientology like a mini tyrant. My feeling about him is that he started out, as a kid, to be a believer in the advertised image of Scientology. But, somewhere along the line, he got twisted and sucked into some of the cruel base realities of Scientology. You can see on his face that he's a rage monster, waiting to explode. Rage caused by the many transgressions that he has committed, but tries to deny or hide from. One of the management at my old org had exactly the same feeling about him... scary.

He certainly is a mini tyrant, though in some weird way he is still limited to playing field as Hubbard designed it. These boots are too big for him. I think he would have been better off if his coup failed and if he would get kicked out of the SO in the 80s. I know all of us would be better off if that happened.

Out of all the bad, i have come away lucky. I have come away a better person

I think that's an experience common to many people who left relatively quickly (as in: did not stay years and years in the SO or on staff). I'm glad that you got out and are here with us

 

[Zertel]

He wished to die in 1985 and attempted to take his life in November, so we’re told by his close friend and confidant, Sarge. In 1986, he volitionally withheld proper medical treatment at a hospital for a stroke or two, so he would die.

In the Going Clear movie Wright asks Sarge a leading question, something like, "So he wanted to commit suicide?" Sarge replies, "Basically, yes." Basically?

Hubbard wanted to get rid of or blow out a BT using electric shock. I'll go along with him being unbalanced but not necessarily suicidal. Another interpretation might be, "I'll get rid of that BT even if it kills me." Condemning Hubbard as suicidal based on an interpretive statement by Sarge is questionable to me.

 

[Dygong]

Two Main Types of Ex-Scientologists

Mike Rinder gives two types of ex-scientologist: type 1 and type 2. I'd expand the types to decimal places.
And, i'd say i'm a type 1.6.
What type of ex-scientologist are you?

 

[Dygong]

I think that's an experience common to many people who left relatively quickly (as in: did not stay years and years in the SO or on staff). I'm glad that you got out and are here with us

Thank you Karak
So, is this forum all about the Scientology bashing? I'm not against it if it is.
There is, of course, the social element: shared opinions and experiences. And the sharing of information, which is great.
But, are there also many constructive threads you could direct me to?

 

[Zertel]

Hubbard renamed numerous valid observations of human behavior to make scientology seem new and original so it's easy to continue to think with scientology. Many other concepts like responsibility, evaluation, invalidation and a host of other things are studied and worthy of consideration. Separating true from false and fact from fiction is the project for someone leaving the cult.

I "blew"* scientology around 1980 and never read a word about it until watching Going Clear in 2015 got me interested in taking a look at what was going on. At that time there was still some rational debate about the pros and cons of the subject itself on the blogs but now it's mostly satire and criticism.

* I occasionally find using clamspeak fun and descriptive. Over time most of it gets replaced with King's English but it remains a second language.

 

[Karakorum]

Thank you Karak
So, is this forum all about the Scientology bashing? I'm not against it if it is.
There is, of course, the social element: shared opinions and experiences. And the sharing of information, which is great.
But, are there also many constructive threads you could direct me to?

The forum is about all sorts of things. Criticizing scientology is certainly the #1 family-oriented entertainment in these here parts.

 

[Zertel]

Hubbard had something to say about damn near everything. I entered scn in my mid twenties with no background in science, religion or philosophy so for me it was my first study of most of the concepts discussed. After that it's almost impossible for me to study anything else without relating it in some way to what I learned in scn. Hey - someone once said all "knowledge" is valuable - Lol

 

[Karakorum]

Hubbard had something to say about damn near everything.

That's darn right. "Basic cleaning course" anyone?