Revisiting OTVIII . . . what, again??!! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ILove2Lurk said:
The whole question is just a hobbyhorse curiosity of mine.
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okay, cool. i get the impression some are still maybe too invested in it, which doesn't seem useful to me.

i'd like to know more about what really went on, because i think it will likely turn out to be rather banal and dysfunctional -- and involve people who were themselves true believers, at least mostly, though any really cynical machinations would be interesting, too.

and isn't Pat Broker the one people would really want to talk to, not Mike? if you've got time on your hands, i get the impression he could be fairly easy to track down in person, unlike his main partner in crime....
 
Reyne Mayer said:
okay, cool. i get the impression some are still maybe too invested in it, which doesn't seem useful to me.

i'd like to know more about what really went on, because i think it will likely turn out to be rather banal and dysfunctional -- and involve people who were themselves true believers, at least mostly, though any really cynical machinations would be interesting, too.

and isn't Pat Broker the one people would really want to talk to, not Mike? if you've got time on your hands, i get the impression he could be fairly easy to track down in person, unlike his main partner in crime....
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure Pat Broeker has declined to speak publicly about anything that went on for all these decades for at least these 3 reasons: Fear of retribution from Miscavige and his mafia, he was a bad boy stealing and playing with C of S $ and who knows what else, and it wouldn't go well for him to be candid, and he's been paid off to keep his mouth shut.
 
I M Dex said:
I'm pretty sure Pat Broeker has declined to speak publicly about anything that went on for all these decades for at least these 3 reasons: Fear of retribution from Miscavige and his mafia, he was a bad boy stealing and playing with C of S $ and who knows what else, and it wouldn't go well for him to be candid, and he's been paid off to keep his mouth shut.
Click to expand...

yeah -- i think there are various reasons that it's a pipe dream to expect that anyone who really knew what happened (which i'm not sure even really includes Mike Rinder) is going to spill the beans.

and yes, i suspect that at the point Pat's longtime surveillance was pulled he got some sort of cushy 'retirement' plan based on going quietly -- very, very, quietly, or else regular bank transfers stop -- into the night, as seems to be the new strategy starting with Debbie Cook.

plus he may be pretty ashamed of what he did, and has tried to put it far behind him and even out of mind. i notice on more mundane notes we never hear from people admitting they joined to the cult to get a ministerial draft exemption, or stole others' belongings when they were in the SO, even though we know a good bit of that sort of thing went on....
 
Reyne Mayer said:
isn't Pat Broker the one people would really want to talk to, not Mike? if you've got time on your hands, i get the impression he could be fairly easy to track down in person
Click to expand...
Yeah, I did track down Pat Broeker about ten years ago . . . his address, phone numbers, photo of his house at the time. I could have driven over there -- road trip -- and introduced myself. Probably would have been a wasted trip. Did nothing with the information.

People I've spoken with and/or interviewed over the years in my quest to satisfy a thirst for some
honest "insider" information:

David Mayo
My conversations with him were short. He was very honest and open. Liked him.
Wish he was still around.

Larry Brennan
Spoke to him on the phone for a couple hours about the formation of the RTC
and the whole legal and financial scheme he was involved in setting up for the
COS. Also, his negotiations with Omar Garrison, the author of the COS-funded
LRH biography, which was paid for and hidden away in a vault apparently. All
the truth about LRH was spilled out into the laps of the top executives in the early
eighties in this book. They chose to sit on it. Larry, honest and open. No questions
barred.

Veteran of the Apollo; had office a few doors down from LRH; knew him well
Spoke with this guy for probably 25-30 hours over the phone. Did not know him before
our phone interviews. Answered every question I ever had about LRH and then some.
One of the kindest and most decent people. Very honest. No questions barred.
~
~
People I've contacted two times each with lists of things they needed to talk about with
me or I wanted made public for the greater good. Neither would respond or gave specious
reasons not to . . . would take too much time; losing memory as years go on, etc.

Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder

Oh, well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'll comment further in my next post on this thread why this even matters to me after
all these years. It's sorta personal.
 
Reyne Mayer said:
yeah -- i think there are various reasons that it's a pipe dream to expect that anyone who really knew what happened (which i'm not sure even really includes Mike Rinder) is going to spill the beans.
Click to expand...
Putting a personal face on this thread I started back in 2020.

I pre-paid about $32,000 ($72,000 in today's dollars) for a complete OT 9&10 package around 1990.
This is a couple years after the 1988 raid on Pat Broeker's hideaway ranch* and it was discovered that
there were no upper OT levels left by LRH and they'd have to invent some themselves out of whole cloth.
This fact was widely known among the top echelon of the upper management at the time.

The pre-payment documents, as I recall, were on RTC stationary and Marty Rathbun was head
of the RTC at the time. So at least Marty and Dave must have been involved.

I would like to know who came up with the idea for this fraud and who all signed off on it. Who sat and watched
and stayed silent?

wdc1979-2-jpg.24151


I paid about $50,000 ($112,000 in today's dollars) for a few years on OT 7. Then, one day out of the blue, I was
told my courses were cancelled and I had to pay for everything all over again. I considered this theft of the worst
kind and quit. Walked away. (I was one of at least 400 who quit. I confirmed this!) Told them it was financial fraud.

I would like to know who came up with the idea for this fraud and who all signed off on it. Who sat and watched
and stayed silent?

wdc1979-2-jpg.24151


Total amount defrauded in today's dollars: $184,000. Wonderful marriage ruined.

Now, don't feel bad for me. I don't need the money back or anything. I had a successful career in Silicon Valley
and am doing fine. Water under the "bridge" for me.

I want to prevent others from making the same stupid mistakes I did and going "all in" with their lives and finances
and end up after decades old and broke. I have a number of distant acquaintances from back in the day, who are
having to work well into their retirement years. They'll never retire. They'll die "in harness" because they believed
these financial fraudsters and those who sat silent as the frauds happened.



*Footnote: In 1988, Marty Rathbun, Monique Yingling, Mike Rinder, Greg Whilhere, David Miscavige, six armed PIs, and a few others raided LRH’s former ranch at Newbury Springs -- their 3rd raid on the Pat Broeker haunts -- and absconded with a treasure trove of LRH’s auditing folders and research notes. These senior execs, among others, would have known within weeks that OT 9 & 10 didn’t exist in any way, shape or form, but somone(s) made the call to promote and take money for them anyways. Someone(s) signed the orders. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Reyne Mayer said:
i suspect that at the point Pat's longtime surveillance was pulled he got some sort of cushy 'retirement' plan based on going quietly -- very, very, quietly, or else regular bank transfers stop -- into the night, as seems to be the new strategy starting with Debbie Cook.
Click to expand...
Debbie Cook got between $2 and $5 million, less her lawyer percentage. (I know the exact amount, but won't say right now.)

Marty must know her deal -- he was there in the thick of it -- and would not have taken any less, IMO, being the "bigger being" and the more important one in the grand scheme of things.

In the seventies, this was a hippie-cult for ex-druggies and spiritual bohemians -- peace and love and all that -- cheap and fun from what I've heard. Now, it's a world of multi-million dollar hush funds and NDAs and expensive silence contracts.

All on the backs of parishioner's credit cards, second mortgages, raided college funds, raided retirement plans, raided futures, etc.

Glad I got out before all that started. My total "pure donation" amount was $30. I just refused to give pure donations and said so. I only paid for services and material, LOL. This was not appreciated at the time. Have funny stories to tell one day.

This all has evolved from relatively cheap spiritual fun and games into serious financial fraud. Think Bernie Madoff level. Lives ruined beyond really salvaging financially.
 
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..

ILove2Lurk said:
Putting a personal face on this thread I started back in 2020. I pre-paid about $32,000 ($72,000 in today's dollars) for a complete OT 9&10 package around 1990. This is a couple years after the 1988 raid on Pat Broeker's hideaway ranch* and it was discovered that
there were no upper OT levels left by LRH and they'd have to invent some themselves out of whole cloth. This fact was widely known among the top echelon of the upper management at the time.

I would like to know who came up with the idea for this fraud and who all signed off on it. Who sat and watched
and stayed silent?
.
Click to expand...


.
An endlessly fascinating question! I always love reading about this cosmic whodunit.

I am going to give my answer to the question which will be both incredibly stupid and ironically true at the same time. And it will doubtlessly be very unsatisfying, LOL.

The person(s) who came up with the outrageously sleazy idea for the fake OT IX, OTX fraud is.........................

drum-drums.gif



................

................

................

L. Ron Hubbard

​
The Commodore ran that racket (selling ascending levels of non-existent magical powers) for 36 years.

After that, his heir, The Cobodore, has run the identical "Emperor's New OT Levels" racket for the past 38 years. When he ran out of superpower inventory, he effortlessly slipped into selling ascending levels of MEST (eg, "the size of old St. Hill"or ever-bigger buildings thru the"Ideal Org" program, et al). And he also added ascending levels of STATUS (thunderously impressive sounding IAS titles, 7 feet tall power bowling trophies for donating to remodeling buildings, donating to Way To Happiness Foundation and over a dozen other "humanitarian" projects designed to save the planet "before it's too late!"

You have so beautifully researched, written about often and helped others understand this looming unanswered question since you first began digging for real answers to the question of WHO rand the OT IX/OTX scam. As you have generally noted many times it was the cult's elite management. You've pretty much named them all before and unless there are aliens secretly running the cult---them's da perps! That would be somewhere between 6-12 key individuals, starting with Miscavige, Rathbun and the rest of the white collar super-looters. In their case, the "white collar" crime looks like this. . .

MINISTER_MISCAVIGE.jpg



...​
 
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...

madoff-jpg.24448
...

SUCCESS STORY
In the past I had many financial losses with non-standard
terminals and their off-source tech. During the days of
"postulate checks" I wrote over $200K in checks on an
account that was overdrawn--and I ended up arrested
when the org filed a police report on me. Later, I got
caught up by investing with Reid Slatkin and that was
an even greater disaster where I not only lost all my
assets, I then was sued by the trustee in a "clawback"
and it took me 18 years to pay off those debts and work
back up the condition. In the past decade I again connected
up with someone who turned out to be an SP, Grant Cardone.
When he got arrested for multiple fraud, ponzi and securities
violations, I learned that he was actually bankrupt at the same
time he was charging people tens or even hundreds of thousands
of dollars to receive his personal consultations where he required
me to do clay demos that showed I fully duplicated that he
was in fact a billionaire (even though at the time we later
learned that he was bankrupt). I am so thrilled now that my
Church has cleaned up all the lines and is only exporting
100% standard finance/investment technology which is
delivered by Bernie!!! I feel honored and fortunate beyond
belief that he has actually approved my CSW and
approved my ethics history and contributions
sufficiently that he would take me as a client!!!

ML, Billy Blowdown
OT VIII, OEC, FEBC, SuperPower, Metalosis Rundown
Ideal Scientologist of the Year (2001-2023)​


..
 
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ILove2Lurk said:
I pre-paid about $32,000 ($72,000 in today's dollars) for a complete OT 9&10 package around 1990.
This is a couple years after the 1988 raid on Pat Broeker's hideaway ranch* and it was discovered that
there were no upper OT levels left by LRH and they'd have to invent some themselves out of whole cloth.
Click to expand...

fair enough -- that's a pretty blatant fraud even by cult standards, to charge in advance for something that doesn't exist.

my guess though is that the answer is still somewhat banal, and probably involving true believer hopes and delusions. i doubt they sold something they didn't think they'd ever produce, so they must have thought and hoped they were going to come up with those levels somehow -- maybe that they'd turn out to be in Mary Sue's papers, or that a light would go on in Ray Mithoff's head and he'd be able to piece together something out of what they did have of what The Founder left behind (as i figure must have been done at least in part with OT8).

one of the things i've come to understand that your new reference to Bernie Madoff gets to, that i've learned about in the business and financial sector from my uncle on Wall Street, is that people at the top of frauds and scams of all sorts often have a sort of gambler's mentality, believing that if they can just keep the dice rolling and the wheels turning long enough, they will have a winning streak, come out ahead and be lauded as winners. i think LRH essentially did that for over 3 decades, hoping that new 'tech' or heavier 'ethics' or more rigorous 'admin' or whatever latest-and-greatest thing would (first) create real 'clears' as promised in Dianetics (eidetic memory, no eyeglasses, etc.) -- and then OTs, not to mention people able to communicate with anyone about anything, and so on -- and those left with the mess when he died probably were in a similar mindset.


ILove2Lurk said:
I have a number of distant acquaintances from back in the day, who are
having to work well into their retirement years. They'll never retire. They'll die "in harness" because they believed
these financial fraudsters and those who sat silent as the frauds happened.
Click to expand...

that's a truly sad aspect i often refer to -- denied the opportunity to build up a retirement (or even 'regged' to cash in what they did have) staff in particular but even many current members will not be able to enjoy their golden years like most people, and if unable to work will be virtual wards of the state. if the CoS were shut down as a fraud, that's probably the first place its money should go.
 
2022 - 2M followers on social media

'I'm a Narcissist. This is what life is REALLY like' Lee Hammock Interview

 
Where did L Ron Hubbard get his kewl lingo...
Beingness...Doingness.... Havingness... As Is.... IZ-ness....sentient being...immortal spiritual beings.
1776953513675.webp


SOURCE of Aliens and language for L Ron Hubbard to start his cult

Mattilda O'Donnell MacElroy, US Army Nurse who interviewed the Alien called "AirIi

IS-BE​

This is an excerpt from one of the interview transcripts provided by Matilda O’Donnell MacElroy which are duplicated in the book, Alien Interview:

“IS-BE” Definition:​

“Personally, it is my conviction that all sentient beings are Immortal Spiritual Beings. This includes human beings. For the sake of accuracy and simplicity I will use a made-up word: “IS-BE”. Because the primary nature of an immortal being is that they live in a timeless state of “is”, and the only reason for their existence is that they decide to “be”.

No matter how lowly their station in a society, every IS-BE deserves the respect and treatment that I myself would like to receive from others. Each person on Earth continues to be an IS-BE whether they are aware of the fact or not.”

(Airl — from the Official Transcript of the U.S. Army Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, 509th Bomb Group, SUBJECT: ALIEN INTERVIEW, 24. 7. 1947, 1st Session)

HOME | ALIEN INTERVIEW Official Website

www.bing.com www.bing.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.bing.com www.bing.com




Scientologist Lawrence Spencer - author of the book "The OZ factor"
 
Isaac said:
Where did L Ron Hubbard get his kewl lingo...
Beingness...Doingness.... Havingness... As Is.... IZ-ness....sentient being...immortal spiritual beings.
View attachment 30062


SOURCE of Aliens and language for L Ron Hubbard to start his cult

Mattilda O'Donnell MacElroy, US Army Nurse who interviewed the Alien called "AirIi

IS-BE​

This is an excerpt from one of the interview transcripts provided by Matilda O’Donnell MacElroy which are duplicated in the book, Alien Interview:

“IS-BE” Definition:​

“Personally, it is my conviction that all sentient beings are Immortal Spiritual Beings. This includes human beings. For the sake of accuracy and simplicity I will use a made-up word: “IS-BE”. Because the primary nature of an immortal being is that they live in a timeless state of “is”, and the only reason for their existence is that they decide to “be”.

No matter how lowly their station in a society, every IS-BE deserves the respect and treatment that I myself would like to receive from others. Each person on Earth continues to be an IS-BE whether they are aware of the fact or not.”

(Airl — from the Official Transcript of the U.S. Army Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, 509th Bomb Group, SUBJECT: ALIEN INTERVIEW, 24. 7. 1947, 1st Session)

HOME | ALIEN INTERVIEW Official Website

www.bing.com www.bing.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.bing.com www.bing.com




Scientologist Lawrence Spencer - author of the book "The OZ factor"
Click to expand...

I suspect that this is a story fabricated by Spencer based on Hubbard's space opera musings. It sounds like Hubbard wrote the thing. The book came out after Hubbard was dead so I fail to see how it would have influenced him.
 
PirateAndBum said:
I suspect that this is a story fabricated by Spencer based on Hubbard's space opera musings. It sounds like Hubbard wrote the thing. The book came out after Hubbard was dead so I fail to see how it would have influenced him.
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Without a doubt. It's obvious and that has been observed by many. I met him once, kind of an interesting guy. But he's hardly fooling anybody with these books. I imagine some Scientologists have bought it and liked it because it validates their accepted delusions. Maybe he figured this kind of thing worked for Hubbard, maybe it would work for him. He does have a Scn background.
 
Don't bother hunting for this LRH tape (reel or cassette) as it's never been
released to the public, AFAIK. I was never able to locate the tape or its
transcript back in the day.

London Congress on Nuclear Radiation and Health
LCNRH-4B 12 Apr Flying Saucers
April 1957 at the Royal Empire Society Hall

I'm curious what LRH had to say. Probably some pretty very embarrassing
stuff in hindsight. There was a big "flying saucer mania" going on in the 50's.
 
I recently delved into some biographies of C.S. Lewis and his haunts at Oxford and Cambridge, between 1930- 1960. His group, self-named The Inklings had several sci fi writers adjoin daily in the 'rabbit room' of the 'bird and baby' pub. Among those in the entourage there, were variously attending top sci fi celebrities, concurrent with LRH's output.
At that time, The Inklings would read their stories aloud each night over beers. Some of the Charles Williams stories would be even modern. Williams like Hubbard, was connected to the occult. He was friends with Arthur Waite. They would discuss authors like Wells and comment. In the 50s there was such a deluge of sci like Lovecraft. And the odd thing is, half those at the pub started to evangelize. They became religious. Granted, a few were from Belfast and Dublin, the regular Irish holy acres. I did notice when reading, that science fiction and religion sorta got tied together in the era, one sometimes leading to the other.

https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/1caktxa/the_nowclosed_former_haunt_of_jrr_tolkien_and_cs

Tolkein, Lewis, Willams, Arthur C Clark and I forget . Could be ya had to have a religious bent in order to join the fellowship

1777255934487.webp

Screen Shot 2026-04-26 at 10.03.30 PM.webp
 
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These extraterrestrials seem pervasive, calm, and able to bend. Not Tone 40 recalcitrant INTENTION. They might be.....but that never seems to be the focus when recounting meeting them. It's been said these sort of 'flow' 'big' through the immediate space

I don't remember Ron ever saying much about the saucers. But he often inferred the beings involved were somewhat 'buttered' over the universe. Meaning it wasn't the whole package you were seeing or getting with the saucer phenomenon. If one is to crash, how would the 'presence' reintegrate with the whole or group. In the Bible stories o nephilim, explained by the late Chuck Missler, he posited this soul has no place to go. The type of creature it was designed to inhabit no longer exists. And it can't go back to source or God. The genus consciousness is no longer controlling.
 
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