Revisiting OTVIII . . . what, again??!! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Lee #28]

Good points, those. The early 50s were a time of much interest in those spiritual matters. This is usually the case after much death in a previous war. Spiritualism becomes hot. You may have lost the game of existing in a body, but you can still show you will go on as You.

I didn't know what a Class V auditor was. I thought it was someone delivering Power Processing. At least it was on the old grade chart.

I had an opportunity to listen to the goals problems tapes on the BC. Ron explaned his theories showing how the ARC X and the problem and the overt and the withhold conributed to the games terminals in a GPM.

I think it may be too complicated today, as we don't all take for granted those same concepts as in the 50s spiritualistic sense. You were always negotiating into past lives with 3GA and then Criss Cross. R-2-12 was a sojourn into past life identities as reliable items. The caveat was that collections of these got confused and balled up. A person couldn't tell absolutely, perfectly, which belonged to him and it could be deadly to get that wrong. Even an 'almost' right item could be formidable.

I have the tapes and find the SHSBC difficult to listen to. Ron, the raconteur was amusing, but he just liked to talk and tell stories. So much had to have repair lists, or revised over. Contradictions in the nomenclature used was everywhere. Words for things were often interchangeable. This still shows up in the Tech Dictionary.

In 1980, I ordered The Essentials of Auditing tapes. This was a compilation of about 7 cassettes which taught the same basics. That was easier to listen to.

Yea....I don't know that much about the current Cult situation.....except what I see here.... I left around 2000.

As far as my understanding goes....there are no more Class 4 Orgs. They are now all Class 5 Orgs....

What I gathered was that a Grades Auditor and a NED Auditor were squashed together to make a Class 5 Auditor...

Then there was also some alteration for a NED of OT Auditor.....some specialist course....bypassing the BC and Class 8. Again this was to "streamline" the training.... But don't agree that it did.

I rather liked the BC tapes. Listening to over 400 hours of Hubbard talk was rather daunting....he does like to talk. I was always surprised at "old timers" bragging about listening to the tapes at double or triple speed....to get thru them faster... !!!!

I found ( generally speaking and my own thoughts.) that each BC tape lecture was constructed to get a certain mental point or concept across....

I found that Hubbard would tell about 3 or 4 stories for each concept. By the 2nd or 3rd concept I would think that Hubbard was rambling on and on.....but then that last story...the 4th would circle back around and tie all the stories together to get across that one concept.... And it would be .....should I say ...enlightening. I would realize that all the stories were for the same purpose....but all came at the subject from a different angle.... but all pertained. It was all very interesting for me...

I definitely took the "wall of tapes" to be an auditing action.....and changed from listening to them....

Though today.....I couldn't say how. Or what changed.... ( not entirely true...) But don't want to talk about Scientology that much if at all...

 

[Reyne Mayer]

There actually at one time was Ability magazine and The Auditor. Both shared experiences back and forth in a humanitarians and scientific sense.

but i don't think those were really the sort of journals where you could say research and write a paper suggesting things be done differently, improved, etc., were they?

He's still taking a lot of heat about it. He has gone into the story of how the RPF got started. Like Janis Gillham Grady describing how 'her' running program was assigned......and eventually became how to torture staff in Gilman Hot Springs.

when i had a look at the RPF Flag Order that his initials are on the bottom of, it seems pretty much like a gulag from the beginning -- black boiler suits, accompanied by guards anywhere they go, almost no pay, no speaking to other staff, no entertainment or games, has to sign a confession of crimes if leaves the SO. was it really surprising that it turned into an outright penal colony system?

ultimately thousands of people people suffered and in some cases were broken and died, even if he was going along with the totalitarian environment of the time and somehow didn't quite realize it would turn out so horribly. but if he'd done that during WW2 he might have been tried for war crimes at Nuremberg, under the premise that like Eichmann he should have known better and not set up a recipe for inhumanity. though i think it's understandable how he has trouble coming to terms with that -- wand to me it puts the lie to the notion that Hubbard's scientology was really anything special or remarkable, rather than common banality easily turning to evil and bringing out the worst in people.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

As far as my understanding goes....there are no more Class 4 Orgs. They are now all Class 5 Orgs....

except it looks like they are increasingly operating more like Class 4 Orgs, with few if any auditors, unable to deliver much in the way of services and open just to provide the basics and then send people on to higher level orgs. orgs are the new missions....

 

[Hatshepsut]

Yea....I don't know that much about the current Cult situation.....except what I see here.... I left around 2000.

As far as my understanding goes....there are no more Class 4 Orgs. They are now all Class 5 Orgs....

What I gathered was that a Grades Auditor and a NED Auditor were squashed together to make a Class 5 Auditor...

Then there was also some alteration for a NED of OT Auditor.....some specialist course....bypassing the BC and Class 8. Again this was to "streamline" the training.... But don't agree that it did.

I rather liked the BC tapes. Listening to over 400 hours of Hubbard talk was rather daunting....he does like to talk. I was always surprised at "old timers" bragging about listening to the tapes at double or triple speed....to get thru them faster... !!!!

I found ( generally speaking and my own thoughts.) that each BC tape lecture was constructed to get a certain mental point or concept across....

I found that Hubbard would tell about 3 or 4 stories for each concept. By the 2nd or 3rd concept I would think that Hubbard was rambling on and on.....but then that last story...the 4th would circle back around and tie all the stories together to get across that one concept.... And it would be .....should I say ...enlightening. I would realize that all the stories were for the same purpose....but all came at the subject from a different angle.... but all pertained. It was all very interesting for me...

I definitely took the "wall of tapes" to be an auditing action.....and changed from listening to them....

Though today.....I couldn't say how. Or what changed.... ( not entirely true...) But don't want to talk about Scientology that much if at all...

Unlike you, I ddn't do the Briefing Course. I was given access to the library at ASHO while waiting endlessly for an FES and other handlings. It was Julie Grimes an AOLA C/S that suggested I stay occupied and she gave me the hall pass/ permit slip to go across the street to withdraw anything on the list. The Miami Org at one time had this narrow, red paper catalog of tapes they wanted to sell. Everything was up for sale to public in 82. No secrets. You could purchase an e-meter before you did the e-meter course.

I did not listen to the tapes in order while in a courseroom environment, but even the Class VIII tapes became available later.

Since the early 70s, I'd had Zen Buddhism and the state of Clear closely tied together in my mind. Not only did I have recollections of a master who presided over my training, but I seemed to recall the science of GPMs having existed in another universe. Each identity was a separate universe with its own specifc havingnesses and problems. It was like I'd covered the ground before.

 

[Hatshepsut]

but i don't think those were really the sort of journals where you could say research and write a paper suggesting things be done differently, improved, etc., were they?

Yes, some shared new discoveries and their opinions and poems and invitations to group and creative processing seminars.
Reflecting on Kingsley Wimbush, John Galusha, Alan Walter and John McMaster, ya gotta know free communication among techies was at a acrisis level.

Verifying…

 

[pineapple]

I didn't know what a Class V auditor was. I thought it was someone delivering Power Processing. At least it was on the old grade chart.

Nope. It was a Class VII auditor that delivered Power (Grade V). Take another look at an old grade chart (pre-1978).* That may still be true today; I wouldn't know about that.

Once upon a time a Class V was someone who was halfway through the SHSBC (halfway between IV and VI) -- but that designation was very seldom used.

In late 1981 LRH flipped the lower grade chart and put Dns (NED, by then) after grades 0-IV, instead of before, where it had been previously. At that time Class IV's who were also NED auditors became Class V's and Class IV orgs became Class V orgs.

*ETA: In case you don't have an old grade chart lying around, here's a link to a 1970 chart. The auditor classes and what they mean are on the left hand side.

Text: Classification Gradation and Awareness Chart or Dianetic and Scientology Processing. - David Rumsey Historical Map Collection

 

[Hatshepsut]

Nope. It was a Class VII auditor that delivered Power (Grade V). Take another look at an old grade chart (pre-1978).* That may still be true today; I wouldn't know about that.

Once upon a time a Class V was someone who was halfway through the SHSBC (halfway between IV and VI) -- but that designation was very seldom used.

In late 1981 LRH flipped the lower grade chart and put Dns (NED, by then) after grades 0-IV, instead of before, where it had been previously. At that time Class IV's who were also NED auditors became Class V's and Class IV orgs became Class V orgs.

*ETA: In case you don't have an old grade chart lying around, here's a link to a 1970 chart. The auditor classes and what they mean are on the left hand side.

Text: Classification Gradation and Awareness Chart or Dianetic and Scientology Processing. - David Rumsey Historical Map Collection

I had come back on lines in 1980 and the grade chart must've flipped in the early part of 81. The Dianetcs came first when I did the processing route in the mid 70s, but it did feel more right ( to me ) that Grades should preceed it after I'd attested Clear. Picking a bone regardging R3R style (Earlier Similar incident running.) Grinding away from the beggining to the end of every incident found on any flows, over and over, gets a bit much. But, with "Recall a time' and "Is there another time"__ rather than "Locate an incident" and "Locate an earlier incident", the person more quickly sees what he HIMSELF is doing to link that to himself.

If a person is close knit with his time track the R3R will help get him into his own viewpoint again. But if he's already separated out, the auditing acts to 'make' a cluster by pulling at and associating things together. Having more space, a person can reach into just about anything.....or incidents anywhere. They're part of valence packages, but, he's not THAT particular 'package' anymore.

Power Processing went for a condition, incident, or identity the person was stuck in or was creating in present time. It was said people went Clear on this. Wasn't this action on the Grade chart next to R6-EW which also aimed for the key identities dominating the person's attention. I heard more 'Clear' wins from old timers who did the Power portion of the bridge than I did from Dianetics.

The Prometheus Reports

Scroll down the left side bar for Power Processes followed by R6-End Words

https://www.freezoneearth.org/Prometheus04/powerR6/index.htm

 

[Lee #28]

Got this interesting video on my Youtube Feed this morning.....

And interview between Mike Rinder and Aaron Smith Levine.....

In this short interview......Mike Rinder states that he and a bunch of other Sea Org members RAIDED a place in New Berry Springs that Pat Broker had run off to....( purportedly with the unreleased upper OT Level Materials ).....

WITH SHOT GUNS....and a bulldozer???

Kinda a funny ( or terrifying ) picture of all these top level Scientology Execs...( David Miscavige was there too) running around in the desert....with shotguns...

 

[ILove2Lurk]

In this short interview......Mike Rinder states that he and a bunch of other Sea Org members RAIDED a place in New Berry Springs that Pat Broker had run off to....( purportedly with the unreleased upper OT Level Materials ).....

Mike seems to have a very detailed memory about things that happened twenty
years ago. He sat on all this information for twenty years. When I questioned
him shortly after seeing this video in 2016, he said I had very good questions, but it
would take too long to explain everything. I had asked him my questions on two different
occasions. It's something he clearly doesn't want to talk about with me. I just wish he would
have spoken up earlier. I wanted to know the names of the people who actually made
up the all the lies of the 1986-88 period. Who was source of the LRH coverups. His
version of the story. He would not say.

He did not tell me I slept with the dogs and caught fleas, at least.

I'll make this prediction. When this whole thing implodes big time, and it will, and those thousands
of people all learn about LRH's attempted suicide in '85, his "assisted suicide" death in '86, and
the no Upper OT levels scam, the people who donated and donated and donated into the $3 billion
financial folly are gonna want names and a literal head on a pike. Just look at how furious and
out for retribution the victims of the Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme were.

Scientology will blow up eventually. People are gonna want to know the "who" and the "why."

All we need is for a few people who were in the closed door meetings to turn "rat" and start
pointing some fingers. Start squealing. With this much money involved, there will be a massive
retribution decade for scientology. Maybe very soon.

I feel a disturbance in the force, LOL.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Mike seems to have a very detailed memory about things that happened twenty
years ago. He sat on all this information for twenty years. When I questioned
him shortly after seeing this video in 2016, he said I had very good questions, but it
would take too long to explain everything. I had asked him my questions on two different
occasions. It's something he clearly doesn't want to talk about with me. I just wish he would
have spoken up earlier. I wanted to know the names of the people who actually made
up the all the lies of the 1986-88 period. Who was source of the LRH coverups. His
version of the story. He would not say.

He did not tell me I slept with the dogs and caught fleas, at least.

I'll make this prediction. When this whole thing implodes big time, and it will, and those thousands
of people all learn about LRH's attempted suicide in '85, his "assisted suicide" death in '86, and
the no Upper OT levels scam, the people who donated and donated and donated into the $3 billion
financial folly are gonna want names and a literal head on a pike. Just look at how furious and
out for retribution the victims of the Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme were.

Scientology will blow up eventually. People are gonna want to know the "who" and the "why."

All we need is for a few people who were in the closed door meetings to turn "rat" and start
pointing some fingers. Start squealing. With this much money involved, there will be a massive
retribution decade for scientology. Maybe very soon.

I feel a disturbance in the force, LOL.

What the ex-Scientology community needs is someone who was in a very trusted position inside the cult "family". Someone who knew all the inner cult secrets.

Someone who felt they did not get the respect they deserved.

Someone who is smart. Not like everyone said.

Someone who felt "passed over" when it was time to move up the ranks. . .

And they'd have to be someone motivated to sell out the cult family
and rat everyone out in order to score some bucks.

IF ONLY RON HUBBARD & DON HUBBARD HAD A THIRD BROTHER. . .
FREDO HUBBARD.​

...

 

[Hatshepsut]

 

[vegan3]

I'll make this prediction. When this whole thing implodes big time, and it will, and those thousands
of people all learn about LRH's attempted suicide in '85, his "assisted suicide" death in '86, and
the no Upper OT levels scam, the people who donated and donated and donated into the $3 billion
financial folly are gonna want names and a literal head on a pike. Just look at how furious and
out for retribution the victims of the Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme were.

Scientology will blow up eventually. People are gonna want to know the "who" and the "why."

he has fans that don't care about facts. we can see that even in HERE. facts? what facts. la la la la.
all the old time indies are firmly on his side. all the old timers that never could see fact from fiction that stayed in the cult for DECADES.

 

[I M Dex]

What we call "belief" is often a resistance to painful truths, avoidance of the pain/shame/embarrassment in conceding that something that you have wholly invested yourself in was not what you judged and pronounced it to the world to be. It's a refusal to accept the imagined horror of being "so wrong". I believe that this is what is behind what we call "cognitive dissonance", not so much conflicting beliefs as it is a desperate and steadfast avoidance of something so personally distasteful. It is an intractable (unless/until a breaking point) investment in a posture, an identification of self.

 

[Hatshepsut]

If someone really wanted to launch an assault, they could maybe use the old standard accusations of magic and sorcery.

Old cults and dynasties had their day. High priests and those under his enchantment came to their end.





Some auditing approaches closely the ideas found in theurgy and necromancy, and astral projection, prediction and clairvoyance. A repeat trend could happen one day.

The Pythia, the oracles, and the messengers of the gods were persecuted, followng accusations of witchery and impiety by the Romans.

I guess today's witch hunts have come from the orgs themselves with worst abuses against adherents of NOTS. ( fear of black magic?) Cults wipe out their own.

10 Greek and Roman Trials for Magic and Witchcraft You Probably Haven’t Heard Of

Think that persecution for witchcraft was a medieval invention? Then you’d be wrong. People have feared magic from the beginning of time, and accusations of witchcraft…

historycollection.com

I think when Ionia ( Asia Minor ) became bullied by Roman legions there was some actual fear of sorcery and the Oracle and her high priests. It was common for an emperor of Rome to make the trip to Delphi or Claros near Ephesus. And didn't Helen and her lover, Simon Magus get run out of town for their kind of mysticism. The metapsychology of the Greeks had blended with the high magic in the Achaemenid world of spirits and djinn. Rome became full of superstitions and wary of the gods. Sorta like LRH linked Jung's spiritual archetypes with the evil valences of Xenu.

..

 

[pineapple]

What we call "belief" is often a resistance to painful truths, avoidance of the pain/shame/embarrassment in conceding that something that you have wholly invested yourself in was not what you judged and pronounced it to the world to be. It's a refusal to accept the imagined horror of being "so wrong". I believe that this is what is behind what we call "cognitive dissonance", not so much conflicting beliefs as it is a desperate and steadfast avoidance of something so personally distasteful. It is an intractable (unless/until a breaking point) investment in a posture, an identification of self.

A service fac, in scio terms.

 

[I M Dex]

A service fac, in scio terms.

What I call a "stubbornly held defensive/protective attitude". Not as superficial, vague and cryptic as "service fac", but it'll do.

 

[Pepin]

he has fans that don't care about facts. we can see that even in HERE. facts? what facts. la la la la.
all the old time indies are firmly on his side. all the old timers that never could see fact from fiction that stayed in the cult for DECADES.

So true; When people are confronted with truth which flies in the face of a long held belief, people will choose to embrace the strong delusion.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

I wanted to know the names of the people who actually made
up the all the lies of the 1986-88 period. Who was source of the LRH coverups.

what if the ugly truth is more banal, as it often is -- and maybe uncomfortable. young true believers not all that different from what you were -- except in higher positions of power, and maybe a bit more sociopathically thinking and acting in ends-justify-the-means terms.

what would you do if you were in the hothouse of the upper echelons of a cult of true believers, and the beloved guru suffered an ignominious death somewhat before his time and definitely before he'd finished the work he'd promised and devotees were expecting -- but had said that he'd come back, and you'd need to keep things going?

my guess is part of the justification --somewhat cynical and maybe self-serving -- is that the following couldn't have handled the truth. and maybe there's some inconvenient truth in that....

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

what if the ugly truth is more banal, as it often is -- and maybe uncomfortable. young true believers not all that different from what you were -- except in higher positions of power, and maybe a bit more sociopathically thinking and acting in ends-justify-the-means terms.

what would you do if you were in the hothouse of the upper echelons of a cult of true believers, and the beloved guru suffered an ignominious death somewhat before his time and definitely before he'd finished the work he'd promised and devotees were expecting -- but had said that he'd come back, and you'd need to keep things going?

my guess is part of the justification --somewhat cynical and maybe self-serving -- is that the following couldn't have handled the truth. and maybe there's some inconvenient truth in that....

Nicely articulated!

Perhaps an apt analogy would be if L. Ron Hubbard ran a safari travel agency. He offered trips to remote, exotic and unexplored terra incognito. And his most lavishly expensive VIP excursions contained the promise of discovering hidden treasure worth billions. Clientele paid modest amounts at the beginning to travel to a massive stretch of middle easter desert where ancient treasure maps indicated the gold, diamonds and precious gem-embedded artifacts were buried. Each trip got closer and closer to discovering the billions. But they also became more lavishly expensive. Hubbard the tour guide offered many plausible explanations and excuses for each failure ("Hey we were sooooo close this time. I've researched and corrected my map coordinates and now we are guaranteed to bring the excavation equipment to the right spot the next time!")

Hubbard also continued to sell his patron customers specialized training on how to find treasure 100% of the time. This is how he turned problematic questions into sales.

TOUR CUSTOMER
Hey Ron, I don't want to be negative, but what are all
these skeletons we keep seeing in the desert along the
same path that you always lead us thru?

RON HUBBARD
I am so glad you asked me that. You see, those people were
once customers like you. But that was before we had discovered
the technology of how to study maps properly. They thererefor
did not stay on the correct path and when they squirreled and
didn't follow the map standardly----well, you see where they
ended up. Now we have the Golden Age Cartography Course
and everyone that graduates that is fully empowered to find
treasure every time. Can you just hand me your credit card
so we can get you signed up for that and don't miss out on
becoming a multi-millionaire yourself very soon?!​

Well, eventually old man Hubbard's bones were discovered out there in the desert, but his heir took over the tour business and the racket began selling not only maps, but also leasing million dollar high tech scanning devices that could "detect with certainty" underground repositories of gold and diamonds. Business was good.

But nobody was ever reported to have discovered the treasure or get rich. This didn't seem to bother loyal tour customers since the were wildly excited about the newest discovery of 3000 year old maps that were far more specific as to geographic reference points that could now pinpoint where to dig.

The above analogy is Scientology.

It's a treasure hunt. The prize is immortality, total health, total happiness, total riches and total freedom.

Some customers are upset they paid big bucks and never found anything

Some other customers are upset that the latest scam of "upper level advance buried treasure detection tech" did not even exist.

But, in truth there is no slightest difference between the first 36 years of lies (while Hubbard ran the Treasure Hunt company) or the succeeding 38 years while his successor ran the racket. Starting from day one and continuing for 74 years, the lies were always whatever would work to sell a hyperbolic hoax.

The game has never once changed.

The Scientology game is ...FAIR GAME. Where "tricks and lies" are used. People sometimes mistakenly think that Fair Game only applies to Scientology's enemies. No. It also applies to Scientology's customers too. Tricks and Lies. Selling fake technology is the essential lie and the trick is saying whatever will convince people to hand over cash.

...

 

[ILove2Lurk]

what if the ugly truth is more banal, as it often is -- and maybe uncomfortable. young true believers not all that different from what you were -- except in higher positions of power, and maybe a bit more sociopathically thinking and acting in ends-justify-the-means terms.

what would you do if you were in the hothouse of the upper echelons of a cult of true believers, and the beloved guru suffered an ignominious death somewhat before his time and definitely before he'd finished the work he'd promised and devotees were expecting -- but had said that he'd come back, and you'd need to keep things going?

True dat. Very, very much so.
The whole question is just a hobbyhorse curiosity of mine. I have too much time on my hands.