How Ideal Orgs Are Causing Current Scientologists To Leave Scientology

Dotey OT

Re-Membered
When I was at Flag Bureaux, I happened to read the eval on this.

From memory, what happened was, when they announced the prices were going to rise, public borrowed money so they could buy services before the price went up. They also focused on making money more than on taking services. Org Gross Income went up.

When prices were not about to rise, public had no incentive to borrow. They would work on paying down debt, and taking services already paid for. Org GI would go down.

So everybody in management knew that continuing the price rise was unsustainable over the long term, but nobody wanted to be held responsible for crashing THIS WEEK'S GI stats.
That is where things go sideways.

Higher priced services should result in a greater income if you look at it in terms of delivery. But things are looked at in terms of GI. A peak in GI then lower GI after results in, OMG, lower GI after. That is without looking at the production value of services delivered.
 

Lee #28

Well-known member
Screen Shot 2020-09-17 at 2.22.30 PM.png

I don't think this is realistic grasp of the cost of Scientology, HH......not in the least.

I dropped $6000.00 at my local Org around 1972. That did buy a lot of service....but of course not "enough...." it is never enough....( it bought me 200 hours of auditing...)

To say that this was "more reasonable" as far as prices go......well....this is simply not true.

One could buy TWO , brand new, top of the line Mustang Sports cars for that amount of money in 1972....and still have change left over.

And I've never been able to afford a new car in my life....
 

Lee #28

Well-known member
Bulk purchases......

The Cult has a lot of practice in making Bulk Purchases.....

If one looks at Bridge Publications.....what is that but the idea to spin off a money making venture?......Buy printing press capabilities.....and bulk paper purchases.....and spin that off into its own Org.....with its own captive buyers.....and there by maximize profits?

Any up grading things like Tape Players. Clear Sound Cassette Decks must have been a bulk purchase.....

I'm sure there are lots of examples of Bulk Purchases....much earlier than Ideal Orgs....

But perhaps this idea and knowledge of bulk purchases did extend right over into the Ideal Org game plan.
 
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Lee #28

Well-known member
Weekly Fund Raising Events for Ideal Orgs......?

How is this different from Weekly GI for an Org?

All the Sales that are made by an Org ......are COMMISSION Based...

Every sale, someone got a slice of that sale....before the Org did....and before it went " Up-Lines...."

One would have to look at who was closing these Ideal Org donations.... to see who benefited locally....at each Org....

I would say that Regges.....were the VIPs of the local orgs...

Edited: If there were traveling Ideal Org fund raisers....with a Big Celeb....or some Big Name.....that would be interesting to look at also.

These would have been orchestrated at the top.....no doubt.
 
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Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Weekly Fund Raising Events for Ideal Orgs......?

How is this different from Weekly GI for an Org?

All the Sales that are made by an Org ......are COMMISSION Based...

Every sale, someone got a slice of that sale....before the Org did....and before it went " Up-Lines...."

One would have to look at who was closing these Ideal Org donations.... to see who benefited locally....at each Org....

I would say that Regges.....were the VIPs of the local orgs...
The dirty little secret of Scientology, is that Scientology expects all staff to be altruistic, to work for nothing for the sake of helping mankind.

EXCEPT their sales people, who need to be paid cash for every sale. Because the org knows that the kind of personality which will ruthlessly extract every possible penny from org public is not generally altruistic in motivation.
 

onceuponatime

Well-known member
So I've heard rent was a big problem for some orgs. To my knowledge ideal orgs do not pay rent. I don't think they actually own the buildings (CSI or whoever does) but they aren't paying rent to csi. So there are less flaps as far as rent being behind, etc. But fundamentally people still aren't coming into Scientology which is the basic problem they have so they still have money issues, bills get overdue I'm sure, etc. And of course one of the various management orgs always is there to take whatever money they do make.
 

Lee #28

Well-known member
Certainly begs more information.

If CSI owns the buildings.......then there is still who is paying the Utilities.

In whose name are the Utilities......

How about Insurance.....is there Mortgage Insurance....or Liability Insurance?

Is CSI pulling a Grant Cardone....and sell these buildings back to the Local church? Are there Mortages on these buildings?

Are there any Liens on these Properties?

Is CSI using these properties as collateral in any other financial venture? If so....who is the Banker / Investment firm handling this...?
 

Dotey OT

Re-Membered
What must now be the pressure cooker of trying to meet quotas with such fewer people on services. I suspect there will be many road trips to peoples homes.

Anyone in now is getting barraged for donations.

There will be some that see that there is something wrong in greater degree than normal.

The final straw.
 
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D

Deleted member 51

Guest
I have always had that same thought. They have selected several suppliers for certain items, such as the large amount of steel office desks, file cabinets and chairs. Each ideal org has large amounts of donations dedicated to FFE (Furniture, fixtures & equipment).

It might look like this:

$ 10,000,000.00 Building
$ 6,000,000.00 Renovations including site work, remediation, electrical & plumbing, drainage, etc.
$ 4,000,000.00 Meters, books, etc. purchases from Bridge, Gold etc.
$ 8,000,000.00 FFE (Office furniture, other furniture, file cabinets (including CF)

They were very careful to point out that major purchases were arranged with single suppliers. If I could remember some of the names from that video we watched many times!!
I think it’s another tax dodge to spread out donations to various states and deduct it under building costs, then send the money to DM.
 

Dotey OT

Re-Membered
I think it’s another tax dodge to spread out donations to various states and deduct it under building costs, then send the money to DM.
Inside the choich, it has been all about ideal orgs since the early 2000's. If your local org went ideal, ours took thirteen years, then it was all about getting the other orgs ideal. If you have been going to flag over the past several years, it is now also the lrh event hall. Word is that it this alone that will get the world in ARC with lrh. Soon it will be the next thing, all in a string of things that will eventually clear the planet, secure this sector, whatever it is that the regges are saying to get all of the public's money.
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
View attachment 2635

Anyone involved in the COS prior to 2003 can attest to the fact that the state of the buildings housing the orgs was pretty horrible. I had been to a few orgs by that time, none were impressive and most actually looked downstat and were in disrepair. LA Day & FDN, Tampa, CC Nash, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Columbus and Las Vegas were an embarrassment to any hardcore Scientologist. That’s why when the ideal org projected started, a certain excitement and hope started to enter in. Will we actually be able to throw away the folding chairs???

A concern sprung up, which was only whispered amongst friends that were old war horses, which was "this is a violation of having to have before you can do, isn't it?" One could only whisper this. Better not whisper it to the wrong person.


View attachment 2636

The excitement was pretty much drained out by the ten years plus that it took to raise the money for our org. I don't think we were the only org that took that long, and I believe there were a few others which took much longer. A testament to that fact is that it's now 2020, and there are still orgs fundraising at "full blast."

Also, during the period of time from the commencement of fund raising to the grand opening, there was an attitude of "we aren't really worrying about clearing the planet right now because we are fundraising for the new building." It most definitely wasn't business as usual. Again, the old war horses and anyone that had a concern for the production occurring in the org could see the effect that the complete attention org management had on fundraising. Us old war horses had to stifle our concern for fear of not being "with it." What happened to the "The Business of Orgs"???

Then there is the subject of construction or remodeling of buildings. Construction can be a crap shoot. Even the experienced builders/remodelers run into an expensive surprise occasionally, and the surprises that were too great caused the company to go under. The amateurs involved in ideal org projects take the cake!! Earthquake zones, incorrect drainage per NPDES protocols and mold remediation were a few of the very expensive surprises that many a dedicated public had to swallow and donate to overcome. I can't recall all the stories, but I suspect there has been a building or two which was purchased and had to be abandoned as a result of such oversights. (If you have knowledge of these sorts of things with your

orgs, chime in!!)

Value Engineering

Definition : Value engineering is an exercise that involves most of the project team as the project develops. It is about taking a wider view and looking at the selection of materials, plant, equipment and processes to see if a more cost-effective solution exists that will achieve the same project objectives.

Value engineering was non-existent in the process of ideal orgs, at least the ideal org that I was aware of. Maybe actually the opposite was the operating basis. During the fundraising, org public were made aware of the entire process by the landlord office, fundraisers, etc., more or less to make everyone a stakeholder in the process. We were told many of the more finer details of the building plans. I happened to be in the construction industry at the time, and had SCN friends in construction. The lack of attention to value engineering was staggering!! We all had many conversations about how we could speed up the process because we could build the building for way less. Another point in this fiasco, maybe the most important point, was the breaking of a sacred rule. The rule goes like this : Never fall in love with the property. One should always have a dispassionate viewpoint over property, because if you don't, it will cost you. Apparently, cost is no object.

For myself, the ideal org project for our area acted as a never ending supply of conflicting datums. Fundraising, withered orgs, people leaving (Suddenly people were missing or hard to get hold of) events, events, events took it's toll. It didn't cause me to leave at that time, but I became very wary of what was going on. I had to take the attitude of "We will See". I guess that leads to the next point.

Ideal org buildings are very, very empty. I drive past the org in my city on occasion, and there are never more that eight cars in the parking lot. If you frequent Tony Ortega or Mike Rinder, you get a feel for this. There are frequently reports of recently opened ideal orgs with no cars in the parking lots. This is a standard.

I haven't even covered the financial irregularities that I knew of during the fundraising portion. That will have to come at a later time.
What's never stated is the glaring obvious.

The reason for the orgs being shabby shitholes prior to the Ideal Org thing is the abject rape by Int and Flag.

You can see it with staff. Class V orgs send staff out to be trained and they were taken by the Sea Org.

That was the routine. As a result orgs never could deliver because every single trainee was recruited away.

The same thing was going on with cash on a daily basis.

Let's face it, if you can't afford toilet paper there's not much money left over to improve or maintain the building.
 

Dotey OT

Re-Membered
What's never stated is the glaring obvious.

The reason for the orgs being shabby shitholes prior to the Ideal Org thing is the abject rape by Int and Flag.

You can see it with staff. Class V orgs send staff out to be trained and they were taken by the Sea Org.

That was the routine. As a result orgs never could deliver because every single trainee was recruited away.

The same thing was going on with cash on a daily basis.

Let's face it, if you can't afford toilet paper there's not much money left over to improve or maintain the building.
Ever since I first started in scn, at class V orgs I would watch the best staff get recruited and pulled into the S.O. and leave to go wherever. There were never real replacements, in spite of "project prepares" where someone agreed to fill in. One for one, those fill-in's left after a shitty tenure as the replacement. Never saw one work out, but saw at least ten leave. Then saw those same recruited people leave the S.O. eventually.

The org I was in never had enough money to pay the rent, and was almost evicted several times. In my thirty years, it moved seven times, the last being the move into the ideal facilities.

Now it's an empty building with five day staff, about the same on foundation. No more moving now, but no more new public coming in.

What will happen next??
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.

There is, in fact, something IDEAL about IDEAL orgs.

They provide an IDEAL distraction for Scientologists who at some level of cognitive dissonance know that nobody is Clear and nobody can go exterior and no OT has any of the magically miraculous superpowers that Hubbard promised.

Thus, instead of worrying about the tech not working, Scientologists can instead worry about raising money to remodel a building, a task that does not require a miraculous superpower—because any DB wog construction worker can be paid MEST money to perform these tasks.

This is all an IDEAL business model because when the old linoleum bathroom floors are replaced with Italian marble, the Scientologists' trances are not broken and they can continue giving glowing cosmic success stories without any interruptions.

SUMMARY: Once upon a time, the states of Clear and OT were celebrated SYMBOLS of earthbound heaven and bliss that could be enjoyed without dying. When that didn't work, a substitute was required and the "Ideal Org" concept became a SYMBOL of the previously failed SYMBOL. Because if everything inside the building was "ideal" then that was pretty much just as blissful as going to heaven. Once installed into Scientologists' unquestioning (yet grateful) minds, the euphoric gushing could then ensue every time a donation dollar was raised! Thus, Scientology no longer was required to deliver to their paying customers an escape from the MEST universe---but merely to spruce it up a bit. This accounts for why all Scientology promotional materials then discontinued the graphics of gleaming gold rocket ships hurtling through intergalactic space towards a glowing gold OT symbol. Now they only need to show Scientologists an artist's rendering of how things will look after the remodel.

PRO-TIP FOR STAFF MEMBERS: If any nosey Scientologist demands to know why their failing little crappy looking org needs to raise $20,000,000 or more to move into a new mega space, one need only explain that Ron made a discovery that the tech doesn't work when the PC's chair is touching a linoleum floor. Scientologists will thereupon begin cogniting and blowing charge and soon publish OT wins about finding parking spaces.


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onceuponatime

Well-known member
What's never stated is the glaring obvious.

The reason for the orgs being shabby shitholes prior to the Ideal Org thing is the abject rape by Int and Flag.

You can see it with staff. Class V orgs send staff out to be trained and they were taken by the Sea Org.

That was the routine. As a result orgs never could deliver because every single trainee was recruited away.

The same thing was going on with cash on a daily basis.

Let's face it, if you can't afford toilet paper there's not much money left over to improve or maintain the building.
Management/SO/up-lines taking money, staff, public, etc. is definitely part of the problem, but it's not the root of the issue.

The problem Scientology, and Class V orgs especially, has these days is that no one new comes into Scientology. Yes, they are very inefficient with how they handle the resources they do have (look how many ex-SO members there are, in most fields there are far more ex-SO members than current Class V org staff members) but it would be less of a problem if they had new people coming in.

I'm thankful that they are so inefficient and so set in following LRH policy (which doesn't work at all). If they were smarter about handling the resources they do have then I think Scientology could stick around for quite a bit longer. I'm not saying Scientology is going to disappear tomorrow but it is shrinking and I really don't know what shape it will be in 20-30 years from now.
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
Management/SO/up-lines taking money, staff, public, etc. is definitely part of the problem, but it's not the root of the issue.

The problem Scientology, and Class V orgs especially, has these days is that no one new comes into Scientology. Yes, they are very inefficient with how they handle the resources they do have (look how many ex-SO members there are, in most fields there are far more ex-SO members than current Class V org staff members) but it would be less of a problem if they had new people coming in.

I'm thankful that they are so inefficient and so set in following LRH policy (which doesn't work at all). If they were smarter about handling the resources they do have then I think Scientology could stick around for quite a bit longer. I'm not saying Scientology is going to disappear tomorrow but it is shrinking and I really don't know what shape it will be in 20-30 years from now.

I'm not talking about nowadays.

I'm talking about the whole "why" finding that started the Ideal Org mess to begin with.

The reason that these buildings were in disrepair wasn't due to not enough people and money coming through them. The 80s saw a significant boom. Nothing was invested in their upkeep either materially or people-wise. Even paying public were/are routinely stolen.

The reason was exactly like the Mission network. It was fleeced, raped, robbed. That's what's been going on with the Class V orgs all along. They were feeding grounds for Upper Management and Flag - the ultimate parasites.

It's nothing but a pyramid of theft from the bottom to the top with the top being the worst of the vampirism.
 

onceuponatime

Well-known member
I'm not talking about nowadays.

I'm talking about the whole "why" finding that started the Ideal Org mess to begin with.

The reason that these buildings were in disrepair wasn't due to not enough people and money coming through them. The 80s saw a significant boom. Nothing was invested in their upkeep either materially or people-wise. Even paying public were/are routinely stolen.

The reason was exactly like the Mission network. It was fleeced, raped, robbed. That's what's been going on with the Class V orgs all along. They were feeding grounds for Upper Management and Flag - the ultimate parasites.

It's nothing but a pyramid of theft from the bottom to the top with the top being the worst of the vampirism.
Yeah, I agree with you. Scientology has always been very short sighted, have to get the stats up this week, never mind that the public will declare bankruptcy and won't do services for another 10 years. Public going to Flag at the expense of the local org, etc.

Part of the ideal org program, a big part, was the idea that once the orgs went ideal they would get a flow of new public in. That's what was sold to staff/public/SO. Obviously that hasn't happened. I'm not sure what orgs were like in the 70s/80s, from what I've heard there was a big boom during that time. A big part of that was because they could, and did, get new people in. If you go around and ask a bunch of still in Scientologists when they became involved it will be the 70s/80s. The flow of new people in stopped, the 90s/00s were very lean in terms of new people coming in. The ideal org program was supposed to fix this.

My point was that even if Scientology were smarter about how they handled their resources they'd still have the problem of no new people coming in. The cat is out of the bag on Scientology and it is doomed, now it's just how quickly will it crash, luckily because they are terrible at handling resources it is going to crash fast (in my opinion).
 

Dotey OT

Re-Membered
They have had empty ideal orgs, well almost empty ideal orgs for over ten years. I was in and just couldn't come to terms. Atlanta went from grand opening and hundreds of staff (there were hundreds of people wearing uniforms, if that counts) to five cars in the parking lot all day in less than three years. Then the pandemic, and it's dead even after reopening. The real number of scientologists was the first thing that I allowed myself to search for in 2017. The rest is history.

The question is how soon and how many will finally wake up as a result of the new "Downsized scamatology."
 

onceuponatime

Well-known member
Off the top of my head, the only ideal org that has maintained its size is Tampa. And that's because they get all the Flag rejects and have a large local population of Scientologists. They also get new people in, but not from Div 6, from people moving to the area (for Flag). There are probably some orgs in California that also do well, because of the population of Scientologists locally, but I don't know much about WUS.
 

Karakorum

Ron is the source that will lead you to grief
The question is how soon and how many will finally wake up as a result of the new "Downsized scamatology."
Davey will create yet another excuse and will use it again for some fund drive. Even if more realize what is going on, the question is: What they will do? Will they act, or just wait? Or fall into despair?

And if anything would actually happen inside, can we or the indies play any role? Could we help it become any better?



🎵 I hope you know 🎵
🎵 I hope you can see 🎵
🎵 The march is beginning 🎵
🎵 All over again 🎵
🎵 Will we ever learn 🎵
🎵 Will we ever know peace 🎵
🎵 Before all of our sins 🎵
🎵 Drag us to the deep 🎵

🎵What would it take 🎵
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To force us to act🎵
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Before visions have faded🎵
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And hope is worn out🎵
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Would we strive to be better🎵
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Could we learn from the past🎵
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For all of our sins🎵
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Atonement at last🎵
 
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