How do I determine if Scientology works?

[mimsey borogrove]

Good question. The answer is in Ron Hubbard's policies about detractors. The only reason to declare people suppressive is to cut communication with them. Why? To keep them from speaking out about the lack of results to the buying public.

If Scientology actually produced OT's that possessed the gains Hubbard promised in his books, films, lectures, people would be beating down the doors. Who wouldn't want those abilities? The lines would be around the block to get in the orgs. The parking lots would be full.

There would be no need to declare people Suppressive, the demand would be too great.

Therefore we see the simple truth - L. Ron Hubbard's policies bespeak his own knowledge of the subject's lack of workability. As do his actions, running from England to cruise the Mediterranean and later the Bahamas, sending spylike operatives into the US government on Operation Snow White, hiding from process servers, hiding out in various cities, and ultimately ostensibly becoming a hermit, living in a Blue Bird mobile home almost totally out of communication with the behemoth he created. Are those not the actions of a guilty conscious?

Consider also the constant redefining of the State of Clear downscale until it is cause over mental matter, energy space and time. Really? Is that so earth shaking? Think of or visualize meeting a friend of yours tomorrow for lunch. Did you do it? Then I declare that you have reached the State of Clear. Doing that has all the elements contained in the definition of a Clear. Ergo, you are Clear. And have always been so.

So, I say to you, that Scientology's very actions spell out in green and white that it does not work. Everything else is part of the dog and pony show to distract you from that simple truth, and to keep you pulling out your wallet or purse, and forking over your hard earned dollars, or joining staff.

Remember - the best liars are those that do not know they are lying. So ignore what the moving lips are saying and look at the actions the organization does. The answer to the question "Does Scientology work?" is readily apparent if you look.

Best,

Mimsey

A recent picture of Scientology's LA Org, ASHO and AOLA Org's parking lot on Sunset Blvd. Notice how packed to the gills it is?

 

[marra]

"Scientology" encompasses many different things and therefore I don't think it is possible to say either it works or it doesn't. There are a lot of common sense things such as looking up words you don't know the meaning of and these obviously work because people were doing them long before Hubbard came along. Then there is the nutty stuff devised by Hubbard, such as Clear and OT, which obviously doesn't work.

 

[Enthetan]

Old plaque:

"If you're so smart,​

why ain't you rich?"​

Contains much truth.

 

[stratty]

"Scientology" encompasses many different things and therefore I don't think it is possible to say either it works or it doesn't. There are a lot of common sense things such as looking up words you don't know the meaning of and these obviously work because people were doing them long before Hubbard came along. Then there is the nutty stuff devised by Hubbard, such as Clear and OT, which obviously doesn't work.

Not one person has ever come forward and demonstrated any of the 'abilities' attributed to the states of Clear and OT, so to say it's not possible to tell whether it works or not is nonsense IMO.

 

[The_Fixer]

Simple.

It doesn't.

End of story.

 

[marra]

Not one person has ever come forward and demonstrated any of the 'abilities' attributed to the states of Clear and OT, so to say it's not possible to tell whether it works or not is nonsense IMO.

What I said was the word "scientology" can't be used in the sense of "it works" or "it doesn't work" because it is a huge subject with parts that do work and parts that don't work. We all know that Clear and OT are nonsense but by saying "scientology doesn't work" a person must be saying that looking up words in a dictionary doesn't work. That doesn't make sense and that is because the subject of scientology needs to be broken down into its sub-parts before anyone can say those parts work or not. There is a small part of scientology that works and a very large part that doesn't work but to find out what works and what doesn't a person must fork out a large amount of money without any chance of a refund. Therefore it would be wise not to get into scientology in the first place but asking a question such as "Does scientology work?" is a waste of time IMO.

 

[stratty]

What I said was the word "scientology" can't be used in the sense of "it works" or "it doesn't work" because it is a huge subject with parts that do work and parts that don't work. We all know that Clear and OT are nonsense but by saying "scientology doesn't work" a person must be saying that looking up words in a dictionary doesn't work. That doesn't make sense and that is because the subject of scientology needs to be broken down into its sub-parts before anyone can say those parts work or not. There is a small part of scientology that works and a very large part that doesn't work but to find out what works and what doesn't a person must fork out a large amount of money without any chance of a refund. Therefore it would be wise not to get into scientology in the first place but asking a question such as "Does scientology work?" is a waste of time IMO.

I'd be interested to know which parts of scientology you think do 'work' that haven't been used pre-scientology (like looking up a word you don't know the meaning of in a dictionary for example). Touch assists? Do they work?

 

[marra]

I'd be interested to know which parts of scientology you think do 'work' that haven't been used pre-scientology (like looking up a word you don't know the meaning of in a dictionary for example). Touch assists? Do they work?

Your tone of questioning seems to imply that you think I support scientology in some way. I don't know where you get that from. I'm a declared SP and have never been an Indie. I'm not interested in talking about what parts of scientology work. I was simply pointing out the illogic of the question of scientology as a subject either working or not. The question makes no sense because it is illogical. In my first post I said that the parts that worked were generally common sense ideas that existed before Hubbard came along so why are you trying to start an argument?

 

[mimsey borogrove]

"Scientology" encompasses many different things and therefore I don't think it is possible to say either it works or it doesn't. There are a lot of common sense things such as looking up words you don't know the meaning of and these obviously work because people were doing them long before Hubbard came along. Then there is the nutty stuff devised by Hubbard, such as Clear and OT, which obviously doesn't work.

If you consider that some of the small parts of the auditing tech do, such as Self Analysis and the lower grades along with some of the policies such as dev-t, how to do work, the basic concept of the thetan ( spiritual being), the non-controlling parts of the study tech, I will grant you that those parts do work.

However, I am not convinced that much of the upper bridge is valid. There were some oldtimers such as Dart Somen (spelling?)who posted on the original ESMB and they thought some of the goals listing processes were very workable, that they got much out of it. Back in the Saint Hill days in the early 60's Scientology was more group effort. But Hubbard left those techniques in favor of implant GPMs such as the clearing course, OT 2, and the R-6 Implants part of OT 3. Much of what Hubbard dreamed up himself I think has many problems.

For instance the whole BT business. I was on OT 7 and the bulk of it I had very little in the way of feedback or communication with BTs. There were a few who seemed really real to me. I had some wins in session from the auditing that were permanent. But was his description of them accurate? Were they unconscious beings stuck near, on or in the body or slightly in the past? Were they some odd aspect of how the brain / mind works? Some other entity? Voices in one's head, much like the internal dialog compartmented off? Self created by the low level self hypnosis that underlies much of the structure of Scientology?

Was he misidentifying some mental phenomena and calling it originally demon circuits, then Genetic Entities and later on BTs? Who knows? There are plenty of other practices with similar concepts.

There is so little that we know about how the mind actually works that it is hard to nail the phenomenon down.

That said - where are the results? While I may have increased my ability to know who was calling me, by reason of the constant listening for telepathic communications from BTs when I was on OT 7, I certainly can't go exterior at will, etc. despite having done it off and on in the past. And I certainly suffer short term memory loss, and other signs of age related mental loss? Why was that not overcome by my years of solo auditing?

The purif is easily demonstrated to be quackery - for no mechanism exists in the body to take the good oils and swap them out for the drug laden fats. Not that water soluble drugs would end up trapped in the fats in the first place. That DDT eaten by birds will kill them when the stored foods in their bodies are released in the winter months when food is scarce, is not the same thing.

If Hubbard was truly OT, where's his ethical behavior? Where's his OT abilities? I think they are lacking. Why the need to be vindictive? Greedy? Scream obscenities at his staff? If you have such powers, why the HE and R? Why live a life on the run from the authorities? It just isn't demonstrated by his actions.

I think perhaps we are spiritual beings, but never were OT's in the sense of ripping off air covers and being all powerful. That what gains Scientology gave us were native to us all along. So, thus my conclusion that it doesn't work consistently, it doesn't work one for one, because I don't see any OTs or Clears with the promised abilities. I do see people with inflated egos, with narcistic traits, with type A personalities running rough shod over the people around them - are they the end product? Are they OTs? Or deluded people invested in some idealized idea of what a super being would be like?

It seems to me that Scientology promised a lot and delivered little, hence one can conclude, as a whole, it doesn't work, despite some parts that do.

Mimsey

 

[marra]

If you consider that some of the small parts of the auditing tech do, such as Self Analysis and the lower grades along with some of the policies such as dev-t, how to do work, the basic concept of the thetan ( spiritual being), the non-controlling parts of the study tech, I will grant you that those parts do work.

However, I am not convinced that much of the upper bridge is valid. There were some oldtimers such as Dart Somen (spelling?)who posted on the original ESMB and they thought some of the goals listing processes were very workable, that they got much out of it. Back in the Saint Hill days in the early 60's Scientology was more group effort. But Hubbard left those techniques in favor of implant GPMs such as the clearing course, OT 2, and the R-6 Implants part of OT 3. Much of what Hubbard dreamed up himself I think has many problems.

For instance the whole BT business. I was on OT 7 and the bulk of it I had very little in the way of feedback or communication with BTs. There were a few who seemed really real to me. I had some wins in session from the auditing that were permanent. But was his description of them accurate? Were they unconscious beings stuck near, on or in the body or slightly in the past? Were they some odd aspect of how the brain / mind works? Some other entity? Voices in one's head, much like the internal dialog compartmented off? Self created by the low level self hypnosis that underlies much of the structure of Scientology?

Was he misidentifying some mental phenomena and calling it originally demon circuits, then Genetic Entities and later on BTs? Who knows? There are plenty of other practices with similar concepts.

There is so little that we know about how the mind actually works that it is hard to nail the phenomenon down.

That said - where are the results? While I may have increased my ability to know who was calling me, by reason of the constant listening for telepathic communications from BTs when I was on OT 7, I certainly can't go exterior at will, etc. despite having done it off and on in the past. And I certainly suffer short term memory loss, and other signs of age related mental loss? Why was that not overcome by my years of solo auditing?

The purif is easily demonstrated to be quackery - for no mechanism exists in the body to take the good oils and swap them out for the drug laden fats. Not that water soluble drugs would end up trapped in the fats in the first place. That DDT eaten by birds will kill them when the stored foods in their bodies are released in the winter months when food is scarce, is not the same thing.

If Hubbard was truly OT, where's his ethical behavior? Where's his OT abilities? I think they are lacking. Why the need to be vindictive? Greedy? Scream obscenities at his staff? If you have such powers, why the HE and R? Why live a life on the run from the authorities? It just isn't demonstrated by his actions.

I think perhaps we are spiritual beings, but never were OT's in the sense of ripping off air covers and being all powerful. That what gains Scientology gave us were native to us all along. So, thus my conclusion that it doesn't work consistently, it doesn't work one for one, because I don't see any OTs or Clears with the promised abilities. I do see people with inflated egos, with type A personalities running rough shod over the people around them, - are they the end product? Are they OTs? Or deluded people invested in some idealized idea of what a super being would be like?

It seems to me that Scientology promised a lot and delivered little, hence one can conclude, as a whole, it doesn't work, despite some parts that do.

Mimsey

In your last sentence you made the point I was trying to make: "As a whole it doesn't work". Exactly. The statement needs to be qualified in some way such as you did in that sentence. To say "scientology works" or "scientology doesn't work" makes no sense. But to say "scientology, as a whole, doesn't work" is a perfectly logical statement. That's all I was trying to say.

 

[Irayam]

I'd be interested to know which parts of scientology you think do 'work' that haven't been used pre-scientology (like looking up a word you don't know the meaning of in a dictionary for example). Touch assists? Do they work?

It's very simple. Scientology does not work.
Anything that is original in Scientology, in the sense that it is not found elsewhere, does not work. Anything that comes directly from the sick brain of LRH does not work. What works (clarifying words, the way to happiness, etc.) is not original. It has been stolen by LRH from other philosophies or other sciences or other religions.

 

[stratty]

It's very simple. Scientology does not work.
Anything that is original in Scientology, in the sense that it is not found elsewhere, does not work. Anything that comes directly from the sick brain of LRH does not work. What works (clarifying words, the way to happiness, etc.) is not original. It has been stolen by LRH from other philosophies or other sciences or other religions.

Yes, my sentiments exactly.

 

[stratty]

Your tone of questioning seems to imply that you think I support scientology in some way. I don't know where you get that from. I'm a declared SP and have never been an Indie. I'm not interested in talking about what parts of scientology work. I was simply pointing out the illogic of the question of scientology as a subject either working or not. The question makes no sense because it is illogical. In my first post I said that the parts that worked were generally common sense ideas that existed before Hubbard came along so why are you trying to start an argument?

Me? Start and argument? I would never do such a thing.

 

[mimsey borogrove]

Me? Start and argument? I would never do such a thing.

You're pure as the driven snow...

 

[The Oracle]

Good question. The answer is in Ron Hubbard's policies about detractors. The only reason to declare people suppressive is to cut communication with them. Why? To keep them from speaking out about the lack of results to the buying public.

If Scientology actually produced OT's that possessed the gains Hubbard promised in his books, films, lectures, people would be beating down the doors. Who wouldn't want those abilities? The lines would be around the block to get in the orgs. The parking lots would be full.

There would be no need to declare people Suppressive, the demand would be too great.

Therefore we see the simple truth - L. Ron Hubbard's policies bespeak his own knowledge of the subject's lack of workability. As do his actions, running from England to cruise the Mediterranean and later the Bahamas, sending spylike operatives into the US government on Operation Snow White, hiding from process servers, hiding out in various cities, and ultimately ostensibly becoming a hermit, living in a Blue Bird mobile home almost totally out of communication with the behemoth he created. Are those not the actions of a guilty conscious?

Consider also the constant redefining of the State of Clear downscale until it is cause over mental matter, energy space and time. Really? Is that so earth shaking? Think of or visualize meeting a friend of yours tomorrow for lunch. Did you do it? Then I declare that you have reached the State of Clear. Doing that has all the elements contained in the definition of a Clear. Ergo, you are Clear. And have always been so.

So, I say to you, that Scientology's very actions spell out in green and white that it does not work. Everything else is part of the dog and pony show to distract you from that simple truth, and to keep you pulling out your wallet or purse, and forking over your hard earned dollars, or joining staff.

Remember - the best liars are those that do not know they are lying. So ignore what the moving lips are saying and look at the actions the organization does. The answer to the question "Does Scientology work?" is readily apparent if you look.

Best,

Mimsey

A recent picture of Scientology's LA Org, ASHO and AOLA Org's parking lot on Sunset Blvd. Notice how packed to the gills it is?

View attachment 7260

That is awesome - empty Ideal St Hill Advanced Org parking lots. That is so IDEAL!!

I think Scientology / David Miscaviges keeps the parking lots at the Ideal St Hill Advanced Org's empty on purpose for one big reason:
KOW!! Keep OT's Winning.
Scientology OT's spend millions of dollars and decades of their lives on "going OT" and if they can afford a car and are not broke from giving Scientology all of their money "going OT", they CAN get postulate and obtain a parking space. Registrars for every front group line the hallway to the entrance of these advanced Org's to capitalize on the OT wins and Scientology Keeps Working.

The other obvious reason the parking lot is empty is Scientology staff and public, who are not OT, are broke from giving Scientology all of their money so they can make planetary clearing a reality therefore NO ONE owns cars. Owning and coveting MEST is a high crime in the Church.

 

[stratty]

You're pure as the driven snow...

What an excellent judge of character you are mimsey.

 

[Xenu Xenu Xenu]

This would be a good thread for those lurkers who are still in the cult but who have doubts or for those OSA people who monitor this forum but who also have doubts.

 

[Deleted member 51]

I think perhaps we are spiritual beings, but never were OT's in the sense of ripping off air covers and being all powerful. That what gains Scientology gave us were native to us all along. So, thus my conclusion that it doesn't work consistently, it doesn't work one for one, because I don't see any OTs or Clears with the promised abilities. I do see people with inflated egos, with narcistic traits, with type A personalities running rough shod over the people around them - are they the end product? Are they OTs? Or deluded people invested in some idealized idea of what a super being would be like?


Mimsey

I really like this part, Mimsey.

Yes, Scientology is basically about teaching people to trick, manipulate, dominate, abuse and control others until they can bend another’s will to serve their own interests. It is wicked, but has nothing to do with superpowers.

I spent a year on the RPF with every effort made to break my will and dominate me, through auditing focused on changing my mind about leaving and trying to convince me I was evil for trying to go, to denying me any parental contact with my beloved 5 year old child, to cutting me off socially from family and friends, prolonged physical work to exhaustion, taking away my free time, personal belongings and all rights and privileges and treating me like a lowly, despised servant or slave.

I was dominated and bullied, secluded to the RPFs’s RPF to sleep alone on cold concrete in the stinky tunnel sump room if I insisted on wanting to leave until I was forced to say I had changed my mind. Weeks of this, ethics conditions... The pressure and abuse keeps getting increased until they are satisfied that you have been completely broken and can now be remolded to work for them.

That is Scientology: using force and dominating and abusing others until they are forced, tricked or manipulated to help Scientology and leave their own lives, loved ones, personality and goals behind.

I don’t talk about this often, but the subject came up recently because I take it personally and find it offensive as hell when some jerk tries to dominate and manipulate me these days. So many years later, and I still have that lingering urge to fight for my life when someone tries to manipulate or dominate and control me for their own greedy purpose.

I hate Scientology and I really hate people that want to dominate and abuse and control others for their personal profit or egos.

 

[Helena Handbasket]

Heidrun Beer

Good question. The answer is in Ron Hubbard's policies about detractors. The only reason to declare people suppressive is to cut communication with them. Why? To keep them from speaking out about the lack of results to the buying public.

If Scientology actually produced OT's that possessed the gains Hubbard promised in his books, films, lectures, people would be beating down the doors. Who wouldn't want those abilities? The lines would be around the block to get in the orgs. The parking lots would be full.

There would be no need to declare people Suppressive, the demand would be too great.

Therefore we see the simple truth - L. Ron Hubbard's policies bespeak his own knowledge of the subject's lack of workability. As do his actions, running from England to cruise the Mediterranean and later the Bahamas, sending spylike operatives into the US government on Operation Snow White, hiding from process servers, hiding out in various cities, and ultimately ostensibly becoming a hermit, living in a Blue Bird mobile home almost totally out of communication with the behemoth he created. Are those not the actions of a guilty conscious?

Consider also the constant redefining of the State of Clear downscale until it is cause over mental matter, energy space and time. Really? Is that so earth shaking? Think of or visualize meeting a friend of yours tomorrow for lunch. Did you do it? Then I declare that you have reached the State of Clear. Doing that has all the elements contained in the definition of a Clear. Ergo, you are Clear. And have always been so.

So, I say to you, that Scientology's very actions spell out in green and white that it does not work. Everything else is part of the dog and pony show to distract you from that simple truth, and to keep you pulling out your wallet or purse, and forking over your hard earned dollars, or joining staff.

Remember - the best liars are those that do not know they are lying. So ignore what the moving lips are saying and look at the actions the organization does. The answer to the question "Does Scientology work?" is readily apparent if you look.

Best,

Mimsey

A recent picture of Scientology's LA Org, ASHO and AOLA Org's parking lot on Sunset Blvd. Notice how packed to the gills it is?

View attachment 7260

Your'e not allowed to determine if Scientology works. That's called having a hidden standard. You're just supposed to go on up the grades, one at a time, and keep on shoveling moolah at them, and never ask, "does this work?"

If we're talking about reasons why Scientology does not work, one reason is that the best parts of the tech have been eliminated. Take Dianetics, for example. In 1950 it was all the rage, with people buying the book and forming co-audit teams. In 1952 it was refined, with things like running out the charge on ALL parts of the incident, not just going for erasure or e/s. But by 1955 it disappeared completely. If you read the book Dianetics 55! carefully, you'll see that it actually contains no Dianetics at all.

Emotional engrams were originally considered to be engrams in their own right. But then they were called "secondaries", and are supposed to have a physical pain engram underlying them (not always true!) On the Grade Chart, they were put behind the Grades because a little piece of NED was supposed to run faster if you've handled the Grades first. And if you ever get to the Dianetics level, you're given an Original Assessment Sheet which is an evaluative list of possibly charged areas -- you're only allowed to run those things, and when you get to the end of the list, you're sent to attest, without ever getting a chance to talk about what's bothering you specifically.

Dianetics is expressly forbidden on Clears and OTs. That's because they don't want you to direct Dn questions to your OT case. But the PC (Processing Client, or auditee) themself can still have their own charge -- going Clear is not an end to one's own charge.

I'm currently getting 1952-style Dianetics auditing from Heidrun Beer, whom I now consider to be the best auditor in the world. It's a lot of work, but this is what I came into Scientology for. At least I'm not being distracted by useless dumb**** like Grades and ******* Objectives.

Helena