This sounds good. Useful for checking on any BS I may have run into and ignored.
E-Meters
- Thread starter haiqu
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This sounds good. Useful for checking on any BS I may have run into and ignored.
TheSneakster
Well-known member
(1) What makes you think I'm "confusing" anyone by pointing out the actual truth (no Wheatstone's Bridge in the C of S meters) ?
(2) Yes, you might have figured that, if I have bothered to study the actual patents, then perhaps I know they are expired as well. I was only explaining why there is no Wheatstone's Bridge in the C of S transistor e-meters. Seeing that erroneous claim in critic PR for a few decades get my back up when somebody who knows better asserts it.
BTW, what makes you think any of the non-technical readership even understands Wheatstone's Bridge ? Word Clearing seems to be heavily disregarded amongst the anti-Scio critics.
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haiqu
Well-known member
Oh God, do I really need to type a smiley-face for such an obvious humorous dig?
You stated that Mathison's patent covers the Wheatstone Bridge. If you had said covered I wouldn't have made this comment. Implying that certain circuit configurations aren't legally usable is one reason people would shy away from making their own, or from using a non-CoS meter. It's an important point. I won't allow subtle white-anting of my new product line, even if it was unintentional (as I'm sure it was).
If they don't, it's explained perfectly in the manual I uploaded a few days ago.
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TheSneakster
Well-known member
Wasn't obvious to me. I'm under near constant criticism here from certain quarters. Tends to color my comprehension in the absence of speech and facial expression cues.
That's what emoticons are for: providing the additional information facial expression and/or tone of voice gives in spoken conversation used to assist in interpretation.
OK, that was a legit error. Sorry. What's "white-anting" ?
Well then let us hope the faux experts read it.
Karakorum
千差万別
TheSneakster
Well-known member
Let's see, use a common decades old agreed upon, easy-to-use and understand Internet hieroglyphs or some private color coding scheme nobody else knows without an accompanying graphic inset to explain it. I don't think so.
Karakorum
千差万別
When in doubt, stay original
I mean I wouldn't want to make my posts so easy too understand that people will no longer require to think while reading them.
haiqu
Well-known member
I've spent an interesting night analyzing the much maligned Mk VI e-meter. The point of interest is the NiMH battery charging circuit.
After throwing it into TINA-TI and running some simulations it occurred to me that a production error had been made. The charger is set up for seven cells, and yet the Mk VI only has six cells. The upshot is that the cells overcharge, outgas and become faulty very quickly. No wonder this meter was hated, and small wonder that they went back to NiCd batteries for the Mk VII build.
I installed an extra battery and realigned my Mk VI, and now the red charge light goes out as it should, at precisely 9.25 volts. Too high for six cells, but correct for seven. The meter actually works pretty well now, and I'm pleased to have caught this before the new batteries were damaged.
After throwing it into TINA-TI and running some simulations it occurred to me that a production error had been made. The charger is set up for seven cells, and yet the Mk VI only has six cells. The upshot is that the cells overcharge, outgas and become faulty very quickly. No wonder this meter was hated, and small wonder that they went back to NiCd batteries for the Mk VII build.
I installed an extra battery and realigned my Mk VI, and now the red charge light goes out as it should, at precisely 9.25 volts. Too high for six cells, but correct for seven. The meter actually works pretty well now, and I'm pleased to have caught this before the new batteries were damaged.
TheSneakster
Well-known member
Pardon me, but I must inject a small bit of firsthand knowledge concerning Mark VI's.
Now I was in the Sea Org working at Publications Org, US from around mid-1979 to March 1981. During that time, I worked in HEM doing various things - diagnosing and repairing Overt Product Mark VI digital TA counter/clock boards made for us by an outside firm, for example. Later, I was detailed out to the Pubs US internal audit ordered by the U.S. Guardian Office in preparation for splitting off Pubs from C of S of California, Inc. into the for-profit Bridge Publications Inc.
One of my duties on that audit, was to determine from purchasing records, the cost values per unit of Mark V and Mark VI e-meters as part of the compilation of a defensible value for the warehouse inventory on-hand Pubs US would be turning over to BPI. To my best recollection, this came out to USD $88 (Mark V) and USD $140 (Mark VI) for components only.
At that time (late 1980), we were not using NiMh batteries in Mark VI meters. The voltage stability of NiCad during discharge was relied upon in the meter circuit board so that voltage regulator devices would not be required (and increase battery discharge rate do to power consumption).
If Bruce Ploetz ( the HEM Electronic Engineer) is still around, perhaps he might be consulted as to whether those NiMh batteries are original equipment. If so, he would know when and why they were adopted (perhaps issues with NiCad "memory" from auditors not following the charging instructions ?).
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The wheatstone bridge is a highly resistive device to measure resistance. The Emeter is based on that. Hubbard said a male should read 2.0 and a female 3.0 if I recall correctly. Anyways, if while auditing on the emeter and tone arm went to 2, then clear of the question, if raising tone arm them resistance is raising so not clear of the question asked, and then asked again and again until clear reading of 2.0. Of course Hubbard called many things like blow down on the emeter and others and named them. Any versions of the emeter are glory versions to persuade for sensitivity for OT levels. (or marketing gimmick).
The emeter is basically a logos rhetoric appeal to persuade. For we all know nobody went clear or ot or returned from past life.
Wheatstone Bridge – Principle, Derivation and Application (vedantu.com)
"In classical rhetoric, logos is the means of persuasion by demonstration of logical proof, real or apparent. Plural: logoi. Also called rhetorical argument, logical proof, and rational appeal. "
Key word there, apparent.
How many apparent proofs have you been duped in your lives? I've fall'in for many to tell the truth.
Top of the list is DMSMH book. Next is lots of items bought to solve a problem, car gimmicks, household gimmicks, etc.
The emeter is basically a logos rhetoric appeal to persuade. For we all know nobody went clear or ot or returned from past life.
Wheatstone Bridge – Principle, Derivation and Application (vedantu.com)
"In classical rhetoric, logos is the means of persuasion by demonstration of logical proof, real or apparent. Plural: logoi. Also called rhetorical argument, logical proof, and rational appeal. "
Key word there, apparent.
How many apparent proofs have you been duped in your lives? I've fall'in for many to tell the truth.
Top of the list is DMSMH book. Next is lots of items bought to solve a problem, car gimmicks, household gimmicks, etc.
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haiqu
Well-known member
That's a very detailed memory you have. Mine was last Silver Cert qualified in 1987, and I have no reason to believe that it was ever touched by anyone but a CoS tech. The battery it arrived with (in about 2004) was an 87240 7.2V 240mAH tapped NiMH battery pack which appeared to be original equipment. It was replaced with 6 off generic 600mAH NiMH AAA cells. Since this is a fair substitute, no retuning was done at that time and alignment was satisfactory. This particular meter got me through the CC, OT II and OT III so I keep it for sentimental reasons.
At USD $140 for parts they must have been buying in vast quantities, probably 10,000 or more.
The charger is indeed set up to terminate at 9.25 volts, by which time it is running a trickle charge of around 11mA. This still isn't ideal for NiMH cells, which should be disconnected from charging completely, leading me to believe that perhaps NiCd cells should have been used. However, since the full charge is at 9.45 volts it was perhaps a sensible compromise resulting in a simpler charging circuit. NiCd 'memory' is an issue, but more serious these days are the environmental laws which won't allow sales of NiCd cells in original equipment any longer, specifically in all of Europe. I'm sure other countries will follow suit.
haiqu
Well-known member
No, it's a diagnostic tool, and you have been conned by Skeptik "logic." It's fairly common on the internet.
TheSneakster
Well-known member
Well that's in 1978 dollars. I used an inflation calculator and it says USD $610 in 2022 dollars. Is that more reasonable for smaller purchase quantities?
When I arrived at HEM, we were working on the 2nd 1,000 Qual passed meters. We all got a pizza and beer party at Shakey's Pizza a few blocks west of the complex on Sunset Blvd. as a reward for completing them ahead of the LRH target.
haiqu
Well-known member
Considering the cost of the dies needed to make that Mk VI case, it's still cheap. You'd have to amortise that over 10,000 items to make the price reasonable. This is one of the issues many people don't take into account when costing this stuff, it isn't just resistors and switches and pots in there. The up-front capital cost woud make it prohibitive for individuals or even smallish companies, although 3D printers have changed the landscape a little lately ... at least now the prototyping stage isn't going to send you out of business!
When I arrived at HEM, we were working on the 2nd 1,000 Qual passed meters. We all got a pizza and beer party at Shakey's Pizza a few blocks west of the complex on Sunset Blvd. as a reward for completing them ahead of the LRH target.
Sweet!
haiqu
Well-known member
Well, as often happens in electronics, the real world didn't match the simulations. After two days charging the light still hadn't gone out, even with seven batteries fitted. I investigated this anomaly and discovered that I had misread one of the resistors; what I had written down as a (quite reasonable) 33 ohms was in fact 3320 ohms. When this figure was thrown into the simulation it became obvious that this charger was really messed up, since the highest charge rate it can achieve is around 790 microamps. Considering I'm trying to charge 1000mAH batteries, this is like trying to fill Hoover Dam with a garden hose. A more reasonable figure is 50 milliamps, about 63 times the simulated charge rate.
I took the extra battery back out and retuned it back to original. I'm still shaking my head and trying to figure out if this thing actually works, and if so, how it works. In any case, the light will never go out with that resistor value so perhaps it wasn't meant to. Which makes me wonder why it's there at all.
Edit: An afterthough - the only thing that isn't being simulated accurately is the Germanium transistor, since nobody seems to have modelled those for obvious reasons. I can't see the Vbe drop difference being the make-break of this issue, but you never know.
I took the extra battery back out and retuned it back to original. I'm still shaking my head and trying to figure out if this thing actually works, and if so, how it works. In any case, the light will never go out with that resistor value so perhaps it wasn't meant to. Which makes me wonder why it's there at all.
Edit: An afterthough - the only thing that isn't being simulated accurately is the Germanium transistor, since nobody seems to have modelled those for obvious reasons. I can't see the Vbe drop difference being the make-break of this issue, but you never know.
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the tool failed to produce a clear or OT or return from past life.
haiqu
Well-known member
"By itself this meter does nothing." Read the damned sticker, clown.
haiqu
Well-known member
Finally got around to fitting some batteries into the British Mk V today. It works!
A quick tune-up and I had 2.0 trimmed, 6.5 trimmed, balance correct and 3.0 = 2.9 which isn't adjustable on this meter. It has the original carbon TA pot too, and no sign of any scratchiness so I'll leave it there. Apart from age this appears to have been very lightly used.
I'm feeling a bit better about buying it now. Still have to get the new case strap and Bulgin power plug, they're ordered but still haven't arrived.
A quick tune-up and I had 2.0 trimmed, 6.5 trimmed, balance correct and 3.0 = 2.9 which isn't adjustable on this meter. It has the original carbon TA pot too, and no sign of any scratchiness so I'll leave it there. Apart from age this appears to have been very lightly used.
I'm feeling a bit better about buying it now. Still have to get the new case strap and Bulgin power plug, they're ordered but still haven't arrived.
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mimsey borogrove
Well-known member
haiqu
Well-known member
Send your resume to Gold - they need you!
Mimsey
Actually Allen Wright was asked to join Gold. He went there in the late 70s and said it was so disorganized he didn't want to work there.
In any case, this is my operating principle now:
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
– Buckminster Fuller
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