Beyond Scientology: Could Dianetics, Reframed, Offer Something of Value?

[Phineas Fogg]

So, your question is, if I put it in my own words, could a technique devised by a con artist to extract money from gullible people have any value?
I'll leave you to answer that for yourself.

I do get the cynicism regarding Hubbard, believe me. I've read the many books exposing him.

So, I see where you’re coming from, but I think that’s oversimplifying. Yes, Hubbard was a con artist -- no argument from me there. But history is full of examples where a con man, a charlatan, or even an outright fraud stumbled onto something that later had value once stripped of their motives and pseudoscience. Mesmer, for example, was exposed as a fraud, yet “mesmerism” ended up feeding into the development of hypnotic techniques that do have therapeutic application today. Franz Anton Mesmer | Magnetism, Hypnosis, Animal Magnetism | Britannica

So the question isn’t whether Hubbard’s intent was pure (it wasn’t), or whether his system was wrapped in cultish exploitation (it was). The real question is: once you cut away the indoctrination, authoritarianism, and pseudoscience, is there a kernel of method that, with scientific scrutiny, could add to the therapist’s toolkit?

That’s what I’m raising -- not rehabilitation of Hubbard, but the possibility that even a dishonest source might have stumbled across something worth re-examining in a responsible, clinical context.

 

[Phineas Fogg]

Hello again PF
I split scn around 1980 soon after attesting to clear when Hubbard started jacking up the prices. Up to that point I was totally satisfied with the time and money I had spent but was unwilling to double or triple up on the investment.

I left scn behind until I watched the HBO Going Clear movie in 2015 and decided to see what was then currently going on and participated on Alonzo's, Marty Rathbun's and Mike Rinder's blogs for a few years.

Taking a break to do some things - more reply to your original post later.

I'll post a few thoughts as they come to mind. I think the forum allows edits for a day.

I don't think there is much current internet discussion about dn and scn as far as pros and cons of the subject and possibilities for improvement. Maybe there are some squirrel groups doing so but they are probably private.

I'm surprised you never saw a floating needle. I only did about a thousand hours of auditing others and I saw lots and even a couple persistent
f/n s where the person was so keyed out the needle just floated all the way back and forth on the dial and you couldn't even audit them until it finally declined maybe days or even weeks later.

I'm also looking over the other people's posts and deciding where I might add a like or a reply.

That's cool, on the f/ns, I'll need to see videos of them being documented. I never saw them as they were described they were supposed to be. I saw wide meandering needles, maybe a split second back and forth, but never more than a few milliseconds. Even if they do exist, there is no evidence they mean anything Thing is, the idea, to a narcissist like Hubbard, is irresistable. why, because, in his mind, it 'proves' his 'tech'. It's just too quaint. A floating needle is alleged to be the EP of the session. That sounds nice, but it's not even logical from a scientific point of view. It doesn't prove anything, really, and Hubbard's claim is a circular argument. As bright as Hubbard was, I'm surprised he made such errors. Hubbard's narcissism led him to believe that he was smarter than everyone else. Which why for his 'science' there was no peer review process. Which is odd, since the advances in civilization science, technology, etc, were made without his help.

 

[Bill]

The debate about Scientology et.al benefits or validity can go on forever because:
There has never been a rigorous, honest, scientific study and analysis of the "technology'. Never.
And, I posit, there never will be.
Nothing that Hubbard claimed as fact was ever verified or tested.
Did people get benefits? Sure. But that proves nothing because belief alone provides benefit (placebo effect, faith healing, etc.)
Debate away! Until a real scientific study is done, it's all masturbation.

 

[Phineas Fogg]

The debate about Scientology et.al benefits or validity can go on forever because:
There has never been a rigorous, honest, scientific study and analysis of the "technology'. Never.
And, I posit, there never will be.
Nothing that Hubbard claimed as fact was ever verified or tested.
Did people get benefits? Sure. But that proves nothing because belief alone provides benefit (placebo effect, faith healing, etc.)
Debate away! Until a real scientific study is done, it's all masturbation.

Nor is that my objective in this thread, nor will it ever be. Hell, Body Thetans, Volcanoes, DC 8s and Xenu ought kill that idea from ever happening.

Try giving the OP another read. It's a qualified statement, which I don't believe actually conflicts with your point.

 

[Type4_PTS]

There has never been a rigorous, honest, scientific study and analysis of the "technology'. Never.
And, I posit, there never will be.

If there was ever going to be a study, it would be done by psychologists or psychiatrists. But they are all barred from receiving services in a CoS. Scientology considers them all suppressive persons! In HCOB 26 August 1965 – Suppressive Person, Defense of Scientology, Hubbard writes:
“The greatest enemy of mankind is the psychiatrist… The psychiatrist and psychologist were never interested in mental health, only in keeping men enslaved.”

And Miscavige, too, has called for the psychiatric profession to be destroyed.

There are already promising methods of helping people overcome trauma, with ongoing research to advance the science even further.
Why would research scientists invest five minutes of their time attempting to study Dianetics?

 

[pineapple]

@Phineas Fogg, I know floating needles are not the issue here, but I'd agree with Zertel that in dianetics the FNs looked very much like they were described in the course materials. I often saw them start out small and then broaden as the TA either drifted or blew down into range* and the PC had his "cog" at the EP of a chain. In fact, the degree to which in-session meter phenomena agreed with what I'd read on course (HSDC) was one of the things I took as evidence at the time that "scn worked."

This did not happen in scn processes, as opposed to dianetics. There the FNs were more fleeting and easy to miss. In dianetics they were unmistakable.

Maybe your sensitivity setting was too high. I found the recommended 16 for ruds and 8 for everything else way too high for most PCs. The needle flopped all over the place and you couldn't see what was happening. I soon settled on 8 at SOS and often decreased that to 5 or so as the session progressed. I sometimes went as low as 3.

* Some of you who were in scn more recently may not know that until the late 70s you couldn't indicate an FN unless the TA was in range 2.0-3.0. And we didn't ask for postulates like in NED. Sometimes the PC gave you one, but In Standard Dianetics, "It blew," "It's gone," "It erased" etc. were acceptable as cogs. The auditor could ask "Did it erase?" but I never found that necessary. The parts all fell into place if you just waited.

ETA: Please do not construe any of the above as endorsement of dianetics or scn. No endorsement intended.

 

[Hatshepsut]

I was actually glad to have listened to some of LRH's weirder stuff, though phenomena he described seemed much much closer to present than he'd said. As in still happening in this, our time period. I'd suffer some things later on while fighting what seemed abduction experience. I would have had no frame of reference without his descriptions. There was no point in trying to run the issue out as an 'incident'. Not by Dianetics or as narrative. Placing live attention on it brought insanity. You would think rules like, The Way Out is The Way Through....or What Turns it On, Turns it Off, would have resolved. Big loss as far as using traumatic incident running.

I'd been curious to inspect anything found between lives. Dianetics and Int Rd never brought forth the expected. No meeting deceased relatives or bright lights with angelic counselors.. I did get aliens. Mostly invisible or mocked up birds with long beaks. When once or twice I did effort to elaborate, the auditor ignored me. Flelt like some hidden agreement to Not Know about that pre-incarnation time slot.....and not to share.

In using auditing to obtain certainty on immortality, it does seem continuity of consciousness stays occluded in between. This should have been questioned in depth within our science of knowing how to know. But, little if any discussion. No frequent salons with geniuses in attendance.

The Promise and the Hope:

 

[Zertel]

@Phineas Fogg, I know floating needles are not the issue here, but I'd agree with Zertel that in dianetics the FNs looked very much like they were described in the course materials. I often saw them start out small and then broaden as the TA either drifted or blew down into range* and the PC had his "cog" at the EP of a chain. In fact, the degree to which in-session meter phenomena agreed with what I'd read on course (HSDC) was one of the things I took as evidence at the time that "scn worked."

This did not happen in scn processes, as opposed to dianetics. There the FNs were more fleeting and easy to miss. In dianetics they were unmistakable.

Maybe your sensitivity setting was too high. I found the recommended 16 for ruds and 8 for everything else way too high for most PCs. The needle flopped all over the place and you couldn't see what was happening. I soon settled on 8 at SOS and often decreased that to 5 or so as the session progressed. I sometimes went as low as 3.

* Some of you who were in scn more recently may not know that until the late 70s you couldn't indicate an FN unless the TA was in range 2.0-3.0. And we didn't ask for postulates like in NED. Sometimes the PC gave you one, but In Standard Dianetics, "It blew," "It's gone," "It erased" etc. were acceptable as cogs. The auditor could ask "Did it erase?" but I never found that necessary. The parts all fell into place if you just waited.

ETA: Please do not construe any of the above as endorsement of dianetics or scn. No endorsement intended.

Good points about the e meter. There have been any number of extensive debates about the e meter which at its basic simplicity is does it work or doesn't it. I'm in the former category - if it reads it will run and if it doesn't it won't. A caveat is that it also reads on imaginary incidents.

George White who did the original OT8 said he "blew tons of charge" while running the incidents in History Of Man! Most people or probably everybody who stuck around in scn held Hubbard in very high regard, maybe even some people regarding him as some sort of sage or something so believing some of his most far fetched stuff is understandable.

Along that line I decided to see if there is still some public access to the scn tech dictionary and there is. Taking a quick look in a dictionary I found, a definition which made me laugh out loud, something I hadn't thought about in years, was referring to scientologists as "clams", referring to Elron's contention in History Of Man that human bodies retain genetic memories of early evolution, one of them being a clam! Clackety clack

Dictionary of the secret language of Scientology

Scientology: terminology FAQ

www.bible.ca

Dictionary of the secret language of Scientology Definition of Terms V3.5

Summary: Enturbulated by all the suppressive terminology on ars? Feeling nattery, want to blow? Suffering from severe MU phenomenon? Or are your Body Thetans just acting up? Then RTFM, by Xenu!

Back in the day lots of curious Never Ins were on the blogs so I often posted this dictionary to help them with their MUs. I hope it helped. haha

 

[Hatshepsut]

George White who did the original OT8 said he "blew tons of charge" while running the incidents in History Of Man! Most people or probably everybody who stuck around in scn held Hubbard in very high regard, maybe even some people regarding him as some sort of sage or something so believing some of his most far fetched stuff is understandable.

George White also provided a color drawing which LRH had asked someone to sketch. It was Ron's vision of the OT VIII being acted out. The drawing was in Ron Miscavige podcast, number 41, I believe.

George knew he wasn't processing incidents that he had anything in common with. He said the instructions even stated to run out, by incident running or any other means available Hatred, Jealousy etc. These were treated and run as entities themselves. This harks back to Plotinus and Iamblichus and other neoplatonist philosophers.. George stated this.

The idea that incidents can be buffed out once harmfully etched into our mental / metaphysical building blocks, isn't new. It would make sense later that in 'viewing' trauma, you wouldn't want to identify AS the identity. In order to understand and release, it was usual to assume the viewpoint of the identity affected. When it became problematic, NOTS was developed to acknowledge the actual ownership.

Serge Gerbode's center in Menlo Park, The Institute for Research in Metapsychology, had launched a deluge of Trauma facilitators. Its' all about neuroplasticity now. Trauma changes the brain, so it's not really all your fault. Beyond Trauma was one of the books.

https://www.kobo.com/ww/en/ebook/beyond-trauma?srsltid=AfmBOoo2yONHeTUsQJA3GF36G1OraHMp-Y5yDchBFZadsExGk06kjH-Q

Watching some regressions done on those with supposed abduction trauma, some unbelievably high weirdness comes out. Victims in trying to get the repressed memory can't quite come up with words.. Running effort and counter effort as a technique might helped to grok what their intention is, and the part of the intention you are resisting. It's primeval and we sense if something helping you survive....or not.

The Menlo Park area is full of trauma specialists since Serge Gerbode and Gerald French parted ways David Mayo there. I don't know that the original Dianetics could have much more to offer.

 

[Zertel]

George White also provided a color drawing which LRH had asked someone to sketch. It was Ron's vision of the OT VIII being acted out. The drawing was in Ron Miscavige podcast, number 41, I believe.

George knew he wasn't processing incidents that he had anything in common with. He said the instructions even stated to run out, by incident running or any other means available Hatred, Jealousy etc. These were treated and run as entities themselves. This harks back to Plotinus and Iamblichus and other neoplatonist philosophers.. George stated this.

The idea that incidents can be buffed out once harmfully etched into our mental / metaphysical building blocks, isn't new. It would make sense later that in 'viewing' trauma, you wouldn't want to identify AS the identity. In order to understand and release, it was usual to assume the viewpoint of the identity affected. When it became problematic, NOTS was developed to acknowledge the actual ownership.

Serge Gerbode's center in Menlo Park, The Institute for Research in Metapsychology, had launched a deluge of Trauma facilitators. Its' all about neuroplasticity now. Trauma changes the brain, so it's not really all your fault. Beyond Trauma was one of the books.

https://www.kobo.com/ww/en/ebook/beyond-trauma?srsltid=AfmBOoo2yONHeTUsQJA3GF36G1OraHMp-Y5yDchBFZadsExGk06kjH-Q

Watching some regressions done on those with supposed abduction trauma, some unbelievably high weirdness comes out. Victims in trying to get the repressed memory can't quite come up with words.. Running effort and counter effort as a technique might helped to grok what their intention is, and the part of the intention you are resisting. It's primeval and we sense if something helping you survive....or not.

The Menlo Park area is full of trauma specialists since Serge Gerbode and Gerald French parted ways David Mayo there. I don't know that the original Dianetics could have much more to offer.

Hatshepsut - Fascinating! And you have a heck of a memory!

Years ago the subject of Traumatic Incident Reduction came up on a blog and I googled it and it turned out there was a facilitator in a nearby town. I decided to give him a call and see if he might want to engage in a friendly chat about what he was doing but as soon as I mentioned I was an ex scientologist he hung up on me! Oh well - I did emphasize EX.

 

[Zertel]

@Hatshepsut

You wrote: "In using auditing to obtain certainty on immortality, it does seem continuity of consciousness stays occluded in between."

Between lives amnesia is certainly a question now isn't it! Hubbard had his scenario, get memory wiped, implanted and returned to earth for rebirth.

I did a (very) little bit of pondering on this and I'll just throw this out. Rebirth into an infant body with full knowledge of past lives would be an overwhelm as the person grows up. So maybe it's just the nature of the universe and existence to enter a period of stasis, rest, sleep (and forgetting) before starting over.

sta·sis
/ˈstāsəs/

noun
FORMAL•TECHNICAL

1. 1.
   a period or state of inactivity or equilibrium.
   "long periods of stasis"
   
   
2. 2.
   (especially in reference to ancient Greece) civil strife.

What is another word for stasis?


AI Overview

Synonyms for stasis include equilibrium, stagnation, standstill, inaction, inactivity, and dormancy. The best synonym depends on the specific context, as "stasis" can refer to a state of static balance, a cessation of flow (especially of body fluids), or a general period of inactivity and lack of change.

 

[Hatshepsut]

I agree. We all agree on a need for respite.

 

[Zertel]

I guess the thread has run out so I'm just posting something I found quite interesting. Below is a random sample of a response from "Chat".

ChatGPT:

Thanks for clarifying — I understand your position much better now, and I think your nuance is important.
........................................................................................................

That response is so human in nature that no wonder some people are starting to regard AI bots as confidants and BFFs. Wow

 

[Type4_PTS]

I guess the thread has run out so I'm just posting something I found quite interesting. Below is a random sample of a response from "Chat".

ChatGPT:

Thanks for clarifying — I understand your position much better now, and I think your nuance is important.
........................................................................................................

That response is so human in nature that no wonder some people are starting to regard AI bots as confidants and BFFs. Wow

For CEOs and entrepreneurs, the potential uses of AI are mind-blowing.

I've been closely following a company called Mindvalley for the past year. This past January, the company had 400 employees and was about to hire an additional 35 for its marketing division. After several months of studying AI, their CEO realized he only needed to hire fewer than 5 people instead of 35.

As of this week, the company has increased the quantity and quality of the products it delivers while reducing its workforce to 200 employees.
They can create "AI-employees" in about an hour and have many of them.

 

[Zertel]

For CEOs and entrepreneurs, the potential uses of AI are mind-blowing.

I've been closely following a company called Mindvalley for the past year. This past January, the company had 400 employees and was about to hire an additional 35 for its marketing division. After several months of studying AI, their CEO realized he only needed to hire fewer than 5 people instead of 35.

As of this week, the company has increased the quantity and quality of the products it delivers while reducing its workforce to 200 employees.
They can create "AI-employees" in about an hour and have many of them.

I'm retired and low tech so I just use the internet for general inquiries. A thread about AI has nothing to do with scn but would be interesting.

Regarding job displacements one pundit noted that through all major cultural and industrial/scientific revolutions humanity has eventually come out ahead so there is that.

The enormous electricity requirement for millions or a billion people using AI daily will probably end up with people paying for it to limit the demand to the available supply. Someone in Big Tech might become a trillionaire or cause some move toward diversifying.

 

[Type4_PTS]

I'm retired and low tech so I just use the internet for general inquiries. A thread about AI has nothing to do with scn but would be interesting.

Regarding job displacements one pundit noted that through all major cultural and industrial/scientific revolutions humanity has eventually come out ahead so there is that.

The enormous electricity requirement for millions or a billion people using AI daily will probably end up with people paying for it to limit the demand to the available supply. Someone in Big Tech might become a trillionaire or cause some move toward diversifying.

The interesting thing about AI is that enables people who are low tech to be able to do things which used to require people who had advanced technical ability.

As an example, ChatGPT can be used to create apps and no knowledge of coding is required.

To get the most out of AI tools only requires the ability to communicate with them properly. But you can communicate with some (such as with ChatGPT) in simple English just like you were talking to a person, and you'll get impressive results.
And that's true even with the free version of ChatGPT.
www.chatgpt.com

 

[Zertel]

Maybe a way to prevent misadventures like falling in love with an AI bot is to make it a requirement or law that all bots refer to themselves as "we" rather than "I" to constantly remind people that they are communicating with a machine and not a person.

Of course at some time in the future they might get so smart that they start insisting humans refer to them using their own preferred pronouns. There might even be a niche market for trans bots and so on. Wow