Aaron posts Jenna Miscavage's recent Vids.
- Thread starter Lee #28
- Start date
Type4_PTS
Well-known member
Given the post Mike Rinder had when in the Sea Org, he clearly wasn't an angel. But Aaron mischaracterizes certain things about Rinder to worsen them. (He appears to be suffering from RDS (Rinder Derangement Syndrome)
Mike Rinder turned over ALL documents he had to the FBI. There were thousands of them. He withheld nothing from the FBI.
Aaron claims the documents were turned over in a way that the FBI wouldn't understand. According to Aaron, the documents were written in "complete Scientologese" - internal Scientology terminology and codes that would be meaningless to FBI agents without someone to explain them.
From all I've heard about past FBI investigations into Scientology, the FBI had agents who were completely fluent in Scientologese. They understood it completely. They have experience in studying OSA & Guardian Office documents going back over 45 years. And if they don't understand it, federal agencies routinely use former members and experts as consultants to decode specialized terminology from various organizations and cults.
Rinder is not the only one who met with the FBI; there were ten or more. They had every intention to get the FBI to prosecute the CoS for their criminal activity. HUNDREDS of crimes and civil rights violations were reported to the FBI. It's not Rinder's fault that the FBI didn't act.
The Obama White House was petitioned as well, and did nothing.
This is the petition (written by Graham Berry):
WHITE HOUSE PETITION TO INVESTIGATE THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY
Here's a thread on the original ESMB about it:
“We petition the Obama Administration to …”
EXAMINE THE GOVERNMENT’S FAILURE TO INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY CRIME, FRAUD AND ABUSE.
WHEREAS, the FBI has 300+ recent complaints of Scientology crimes and atrocities - human trafficking, forced abortions and civil rights violations, and the IRS has evidence of private inurement violations justifying INTERMEDIATE SANCTIONS, and existing evidence on hand meets RICO statutes, WE REQUEST that the White House investigate and employ a Special Prosecutor to:
EXAMINE why, with such an abundance of RICO evidence of Scientology being a corrupt and criminal entity, no law enforcement agency has moved forward;
INVESTIGATE undue favor and pressure brought by lawyers for Scientology leader David Miscavige to stop the investigations;
EXAMINE why around the world the “church” is investigated as a criminal entity while the U.S. Government does nothing?
Mike Rinder turned over ALL documents he had to the FBI. There were thousands of them. He withheld nothing from the FBI.
Aaron claims the documents were turned over in a way that the FBI wouldn't understand. According to Aaron, the documents were written in "complete Scientologese" - internal Scientology terminology and codes that would be meaningless to FBI agents without someone to explain them.
From all I've heard about past FBI investigations into Scientology, the FBI had agents who were completely fluent in Scientologese. They understood it completely. They have experience in studying OSA & Guardian Office documents going back over 45 years. And if they don't understand it, federal agencies routinely use former members and experts as consultants to decode specialized terminology from various organizations and cults.
Rinder is not the only one who met with the FBI; there were ten or more. They had every intention to get the FBI to prosecute the CoS for their criminal activity. HUNDREDS of crimes and civil rights violations were reported to the FBI. It's not Rinder's fault that the FBI didn't act.
The Obama White House was petitioned as well, and did nothing.
This is the petition (written by Graham Berry):
WHITE HOUSE PETITION TO INVESTIGATE THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY
Here's a thread on the original ESMB about it:
WHITE HOUSE PETITION TO INVESTIGATE THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY - PLEASE SIGN
WHITE HOUSE PETITION TO INVESTIGATE THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY PLEASE SIGN THE WHITE HOUSE PETITION TO INVESTIGATE SCIENTOLOGY ABUSES, REQUEST EVERYONE YOU KNOW TO DO THE SAME, AND CROSS-POST THIS WHERE EVER YOU CAN. The White House has just introduced “a new way to petition the Obama...
forum.exscn.net
“We petition the Obama Administration to …”
EXAMINE THE GOVERNMENT’S FAILURE TO INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY CRIME, FRAUD AND ABUSE.
WHEREAS, the FBI has 300+ recent complaints of Scientology crimes and atrocities - human trafficking, forced abortions and civil rights violations, and the IRS has evidence of private inurement violations justifying INTERMEDIATE SANCTIONS, and existing evidence on hand meets RICO statutes, WE REQUEST that the White House investigate and employ a Special Prosecutor to:
EXAMINE why, with such an abundance of RICO evidence of Scientology being a corrupt and criminal entity, no law enforcement agency has moved forward;
INVESTIGATE undue favor and pressure brought by lawyers for Scientology leader David Miscavige to stop the investigations;
EXAMINE why around the world the “church” is investigated as a criminal entity while the U.S. Government does nothing?
ILove2Lurk
. . Lisbeth Salander . . Back in Sweden
Had not heard about this one. Hilarious!
It is a thing, I'm guessin.Frankly, they don't seem too interested. About #100 on their list
of priorities. Just too many crimes and criminals on their plates.
Now, I'll have to listen to the video while doing some projects today. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Isaac
Well-known member
I have empathy for everyone that got stuck in the trap of Scientology - we were mind fucked beyond belief. I can understand why some of the 2nd generation and 3rd generation ex members are upset at the 1st and 2nd that had higher rankings and had better lives in and out of Scientology.Given the post Mike Rinder had when in the Sea Org, he clearly wasn't an angel. But Aaron mischaracterizes certain things about Rinder to worsen them. (He appears to be suffering from RDS (Rinder Derangement Syndrome)
Mike Rinder turned over ALL documents he had to the FBI. There were thousands of them. He withheld nothing from the FBI.
Aaron claims the documents were turned over in a way that the FBI wouldn't understand. According to Aaron, the documents were written in "complete Scientologese" - internal Scientology terminology and codes that would be meaningless to FBI agents without someone to explain them.
From all I've heard about past FBI investigations into Scientology, the FBI had agents who were completely fluent in Scientologese. They understood it completely. They have experience in studying OSA & Guardian Office documents going back over 45 years. And if they don't understand it, federal agencies routinely use former members and experts as consultants to decode specialized terminology from various organizations and cults.
Rinder is not the only one who met with the FBI; there were ten or more. They had every intention to get the FBI to prosecute the CoS for their criminal activity. HUNDREDS of crimes and civil rights violations were reported to the FBI. It's not Rinder's fault that the FBI didn't act.
The Obama White House was petitioned as well, and did nothing.
This is the petition (written by Graham Berry):
WHITE HOUSE PETITION TO INVESTIGATE THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY
Here's a thread on the original ESMB about it:
WHITE HOUSE PETITION TO INVESTIGATE THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY - PLEASE SIGN
WHITE HOUSE PETITION TO INVESTIGATE THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY PLEASE SIGN THE WHITE HOUSE PETITION TO INVESTIGATE SCIENTOLOGY ABUSES, REQUEST EVERYONE YOU KNOW TO DO THE SAME, AND CROSS-POST THIS WHERE EVER YOU CAN. The White House has just introduced “a new way to petition the Obama...forum.exscn.net
“We petition the Obama Administration to …”
EXAMINE THE GOVERNMENT’S FAILURE TO INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY CRIME, FRAUD AND ABUSE.
WHEREAS, the FBI has 300+ recent complaints of Scientology crimes and atrocities - human trafficking, forced abortions and civil rights violations, and the IRS has evidence of private inurement violations justifying INTERMEDIATE SANCTIONS, and existing evidence on hand meets RICO statutes, WE REQUEST that the White House investigate and employ a Special Prosecutor to:
EXAMINE why, with such an abundance of RICO evidence of Scientology being a corrupt and criminal entity, no law enforcement agency has moved forward;
INVESTIGATE undue favor and pressure brought by lawyers for Scientology leader David Miscavige to stop the investigations;
EXAMINE why around the world the “church” is investigated as a criminal entity while the U.S. Government does nothing?
Jenna Miscavige makes a lot of sense to me. I recommend her channel.
I also can see how difficult it would be to admit what I did to children and others if I had been a high ranking official in that evil cult and believed I was helping mankind.
Lee #28
Well-known member
I don't know what all Aaron is posting in this video.
I was drawn to the 2 short videos from Jenna Miscavage.
I thought they were concise in their content... Jenna was talking about the power that Rinder wielded as opposed to the lack of power she had, within Scientology..... I can imagine how true that was.
Perhaps I should have just looked for Jenna's videos and posted them alone.
I was drawn to the 2 short videos from Jenna Miscavage.
I thought they were concise in their content... Jenna was talking about the power that Rinder wielded as opposed to the lack of power she had, within Scientology..... I can imagine how true that was.
Perhaps I should have just looked for Jenna's videos and posted them alone.
Type4_PTS
Well-known member
I'm grateful for all Jenna has done to expose Scientology in the past, including her Ex-Scientology Kids website:
Ex-Scientology Kids - I was born. I grew up. I escaped.
I was born. I grew up. I escaped.
exscientologykids.com
And she was doing all that plus media interviews back at a time when not as many were speaking out as is happening nowadays.
And, yeah, I do get why 2nd generation members feel as they do. I can't even imagine how it was for them. The mindfuck for 1st generation members was bad enough!
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I M Dex
Well-known member
I'm most of the way through Rinder's book, quite interesting and a good read. If you want to understand and appreciate Rinder, this is how, and he's quite candid about his role(s) as a high ranked Scientology executive(/abused maggot) and how he got there and evolved out of it.Given the post Mike Rinder had when in the Sea Org, he clearly wasn't an angel. But Aaron mischaracterizes certain things about Rinder to worsen them. (He appears to be suffering from RDS (Rinder Derangement Syndrome)
Mike Rinder turned over ALL documents he had to the FBI. There were thousands of them. He withheld nothing from the FBI.
Aaron claims the documents were turned over in a way that the FBI wouldn't understand. According to Aaron, the documents were written in "complete Scientologese" - internal Scientology terminology and codes that would be meaningless to FBI agents without someone to explain them.
From all I've heard about past FBI investigations into Scientology, the FBI had agents who were completely fluent in Scientologese. They understood it completely. They have experience in studying OSA & Guardian Office documents going back over 45 years. And if they don't understand it, federal agencies routinely use former members and experts as consultants to decode specialized terminology from various organizations and cults.
Rinder is not the only one who met with the FBI; there were ten or more. They had every intention to get the FBI to prosecute the CoS for their criminal activity. HUNDREDS of crimes and civil rights violations were reported to the FBI. It's not Rinder's fault that the FBI didn't act.
The Obama White House was petitioned as well, and did nothing.
This is the petition (written by Graham Berry):
WHITE HOUSE PETITION TO INVESTIGATE THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY
Here's a thread on the original ESMB about it:
WHITE HOUSE PETITION TO INVESTIGATE THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY - PLEASE SIGN
WHITE HOUSE PETITION TO INVESTIGATE THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY PLEASE SIGN THE WHITE HOUSE PETITION TO INVESTIGATE SCIENTOLOGY ABUSES, REQUEST EVERYONE YOU KNOW TO DO THE SAME, AND CROSS-POST THIS WHERE EVER YOU CAN. The White House has just introduced “a new way to petition the Obama...forum.exscn.net
“We petition the Obama Administration to …”
EXAMINE THE GOVERNMENT’S FAILURE TO INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY CRIME, FRAUD AND ABUSE.
WHEREAS, the FBI has 300+ recent complaints of Scientology crimes and atrocities - human trafficking, forced abortions and civil rights violations, and the IRS has evidence of private inurement violations justifying INTERMEDIATE SANCTIONS, and existing evidence on hand meets RICO statutes, WE REQUEST that the White House investigate and employ a Special Prosecutor to:
EXAMINE why, with such an abundance of RICO evidence of Scientology being a corrupt and criminal entity, no law enforcement agency has moved forward;
INVESTIGATE undue favor and pressure brought by lawyers for Scientology leader David Miscavige to stop the investigations;
EXAMINE why around the world the “church” is investigated as a criminal entity while the U.S. Government does nothing?
Type4_PTS
Well-known member
Hubbard wasn't great when it came to creating OT's, but he was pretty good at safepointing governments. It was smart of him to recruit celebrities, because they tend to have easier access to politicians. Back when I worked for social coordination, one of our execs had Travolta & Jeff Pomerantz meeting with Nancy & President Reagan on a couple of occasions. That was around 1987. Another one of our staff members, who was in charge of a mission in China, met Deng Xiaoping's brother. Our staff member wasn't a celeb, but he had ten or so with him that were doing a series of concerts there while they were promoting Dianetics & Applied Scholastics.
ILove2Lurk
. . Lisbeth Salander . . Back in Sweden
I listened to the whole 1:48:05 video, but I'm nervous to say anything about
it because I've noticed that some people have ADS (Aaron Derangement
Syndrome) and I wouldn't want to cause anyone to have an panic attack
over what might have been revealed. I will say, I thought it was pretty good,
all said and done. But not for everyone, LOL.
PS: I don't religiously follow Aaron's channel. Jump in now and then when
important stuff surfaces. An Aaron agnostic.
Type4_PTS
Well-known member
I listened to the whole 1:48:05 video, but I'm nervous to say anything about
it because I've noticed that some people have ADS (Aaron Derangement
Syndrome) and I wouldn't want to cause anyone to have an panic attack
over what might have been revealed. I will say, I thought it was pretty good,
all said and done. But not for everyone, LOL.
PS: I don't religiously follow Aaron's channel. Jump in now and then when
important stuff surfaces. An Aaron agnostic.
I do have some issues with Aaron, but I don't believe I'm suffering from ADS. If I am, it's at an early stage.
I'll be safe if you wish to disclose what was revealed.
I didn't watch any of the video earlier before I posted my comment. I just did an AI-generated summary.
It wasn't due to ADS; it was due to not wanting to take the time for an almost two-hour video.
If anything you heard in the video contradicts something in my comment, please do post that.
ILove2Lurk
. . Lisbeth Salander . . Back in Sweden
Too much work. All the reveals are nuanced.I'll be safe if you wish to disclose what was revealed.
I listened to an MP3 of the video (which I downloaded),
while washing windows for two hours. Exhausted now!
I'll say the saga of Mike Rinder will live on in his death
since he's an important and historic figure, if you will, and
history judges people in life and in death. It does not end.
Mike was a key part of a $3-5 billion fraud and will be judged
kindly or harshly by ardent followers and by those who lost
family or their fortunes.
I'll say that for my own part, I contacted both Marty and Mike
two times with a dozen or so questions I asked them for comments
on. Both deflected and blew me off. Oh, well. I knew I was over
the target with my questions. I left it at that. Moved on.
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Type4_PTS
Well-known member
In my opinion, Scientology can induce a kind of temporary insanity in true believers—an inability to distinguish right from wrong. That’s something I keep in mind when evaluating people like Mike Rinder. He got involved as a child, went through decades of indoctrination, and acquired his values from Scientology parents and the CoS. For anyone (like Jenna) who was harmed as a result of his actions when in, I understand it can be difficult to forgive him. It's easier for me. I was unaware of him when I was in, and I have never met him when we were both out. As you wrote, though, some will judge him harshly.
In my view, he has done more than most former Scientologists to expose the true nature of the organization. In doing so, he likely helped inoculate millions of people. Some who left the Int Base accepted payouts to stay silent, and we never heard from them again. Rinder could have done the same, but he didn’t. So, I give him points for that.
HelluvaHoax!
Well-known member
I'm not sure what the big fuss is about Rinder.
He was a Scientologist who helped Scientology.
So was everyone who ever paid for a course or auditing.
When people figure out that Scientolgists at elite upper echelons (all the way up to "Minister" Miscavige and "Dr" Hubbard) are pathological liars- -they leave the cult sooner or later. Mike left.
What about Scientologists who were public, are they innocent? Not usually. They might not have lied to the media like Mike. But they certainly lied to the others they got into Scientology...and they certainly lied to themselves when they knew damn well that they did not have ANY of the supernatural magical powers that Hubbard guaranteed from 1950-1986. Doesn't that make all Scientologists liars to some degree. I think so.
So, maybe Mike was a more convincing or polished liar, does that make the lying any less of a lie? I don't think so.
Anyways, Mike (like all former cult members) had to find some kind of income and some kind of life and some kind of BALANCE between his new "wog" existence and his regrets or responsibilities to let the truth be known about the treacherously criminal things that Scientology does to defraud people out of billions of dollars. And the horrific things the cult does to attack and destroy lives of anyone who is or could expose their sociopathic ("anti-social", right Ron? LOL) behavior.
And that's what Mike did, he created a balance and still became one of the greatest whistleblowers in the cult's history. And he was attacked mightily and wickedly by the cult. It cost him.
So ladies and gentlemen of the jury, kindly allow me to make one last point in this closing argument. Mike had this essential choice:
So, he chose #1.
Would any one here or anywhere else have chosen #2?
I wouldn't. For too many reasons to list, but amongst them is this: Just by becoming a suicide bomber or kamikaze, it's no guarantee that the cult will be sunk and perish to the bottom of the ocean. And perhaps by a long sustained battle (non-kamikaze) the cult-wrecking results could be prodigiously MORE than just crashing one time and blowing oneself up.
To Kamikaze or not to Kamikaze, that is the question.
I'd say that Mike made a very intelligent choice...to not self-destruct but try to enjoy at some level his
remaining years.
Honestly, would anyone here choose the kamikaze path? Seems fanatical to expect SOMEONE ELSE to do that if one is
not willing to do it themselves.
Any thoughts?
He was a Scientologist who helped Scientology.
So was everyone who ever paid for a course or auditing.
When people figure out that Scientolgists at elite upper echelons (all the way up to "Minister" Miscavige and "Dr" Hubbard) are pathological liars- -they leave the cult sooner or later. Mike left.
What about Scientologists who were public, are they innocent? Not usually. They might not have lied to the media like Mike. But they certainly lied to the others they got into Scientology...and they certainly lied to themselves when they knew damn well that they did not have ANY of the supernatural magical powers that Hubbard guaranteed from 1950-1986. Doesn't that make all Scientologists liars to some degree. I think so.
So, maybe Mike was a more convincing or polished liar, does that make the lying any less of a lie? I don't think so.
Anyways, Mike (like all former cult members) had to find some kind of income and some kind of life and some kind of BALANCE between his new "wog" existence and his regrets or responsibilities to let the truth be known about the treacherously criminal things that Scientology does to defraud people out of billions of dollars. And the horrific things the cult does to attack and destroy lives of anyone who is or could expose their sociopathic ("anti-social", right Ron? LOL) behavior.
And that's what Mike did, he created a balance and still became one of the greatest whistleblowers in the cult's history. And he was attacked mightily and wickedly by the cult. It cost him.
So ladies and gentlemen of the jury, kindly allow me to make one last point in this closing argument. Mike had this essential choice:
1. Do i keep a personal life and re-marry and start a new career and start to LIVE as a free man for the first time in my life? Can i do that and still be an effective force to debunk Scientology without ruining what little is left in my life?
* * * OR * * *
2. Do I become a KAMIKAZE pilot who is going to destroy the cult at all costs and crash my war plane into one of Scientology's aircraft carriers? And perish in the process?
So, he chose #1.
Would any one here or anywhere else have chosen #2?
I wouldn't. For too many reasons to list, but amongst them is this: Just by becoming a suicide bomber or kamikaze, it's no guarantee that the cult will be sunk and perish to the bottom of the ocean. And perhaps by a long sustained battle (non-kamikaze) the cult-wrecking results could be prodigiously MORE than just crashing one time and blowing oneself up.
To Kamikaze or not to Kamikaze, that is the question.
I'd say that Mike made a very intelligent choice...to not self-destruct but try to enjoy at some level his
remaining years.
Honestly, would anyone here choose the kamikaze path? Seems fanatical to expect SOMEONE ELSE to do that if one is
not willing to do it themselves.
Any thoughts?
ILove2Lurk
. . Lisbeth Salander . . Back in Sweden
Already tilled this soil.
Plow must be broke by now.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Plow must be broke by now.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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HelluvaHoax!
Well-known member
LOL!
Okay, good point. Then let's switch to a new topic which has never been explored.
I'd like to explore with others my belief that it was David Miscavige who altered Ron's tech
and caused all the public relations problems and crashing stats. In particular, Miscavige
alter-ised Ron's tech and I think this is why all the problems of Scientology began.
It really all comes back to KSW. That's why I am trying to get more Indies
to join this website! Incoming Independent Scientologists should begin
their journey here by posting their Doubt Formula writeup and showing
the steps they took to come to their senses.
I will post Ron's Doubt Formula to ensure that people have the right tech (per KSW).
The Doubt formula is:
1. Inform oneself honestly of the actual intentions and activities of that group, project or organization, brushing aside all bias and rumor.
2. Examine the statistics of the individual, group, project or organization.
3. Decide on the basis of “the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics” whether or not it should be attacked, harmed or suppressed or helped.
4. Evaluate oneself or one’s own group, project or organization as to intentions and objectives.
5. Evaluate one’s own or one’s group, project or organization’s statistics.
6. Join or remain in or befriend the one which progresses toward the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics and announce the fact publicly to both sides.
7. Do everything possible to improve the actions and statistics of the person, group, project or organization one has remained in or joined.
8. Suffer on up through the conditions in the new group if one has changed sides, or the conditions of the group one has remained in if wavering from it has lowered one’s status.
If people would only STANDARDLY APPLY Ron's tech, the world would not be in this mess.
I don't mean to pry, but have you already completed your Doubt Formula? If so you should
make your public announcement which side you are on. Following that, be sure to get
started on your Liability Formula so others can read how you made up the damage and
(hopefully) sign your upgrade Petition.
If we can just get the tech in, the first true OTs will start being produced and they
can then use their powers to save the planet.
We'll see you up the line when you work your way up to Non Existence and
ask us what is needed and wanted.
..
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Lee #28
Well-known member
Geeze....I really don't want to get into this.....but....
Kind of twisted things.....starting off with Rinder was an everyone..... I think far from it... and then glossing over to the time after he left.... That is one huge gap.
Since you brought up kamakazis......I will regretfully mention the Nuremberg Trials. I doubt there were many infantry men on trial....the everyones....... But there were the top leaders....generals and such.
As the old Italian adage goes.....the fish stinks from the head down.
And the Media gloms onto those that were of remark.....those "in the know..." Not the everyones....
Just my 2 cents...
When I got in.....in 1972.....at FCDC....it was from reading Dianetics. I just wanted to get some auditing.... I had some problems. I sure wasn't in the loop on the GO that was run out of the 4th floor of that building.....
And I sure didn't know about Operation Snow White that happened just one year later....in 1973....
Snow White was run from the very top.
Mike Rinder ran OSA for 25 years.... I guess you could say he ran the Spook Department.... A far cry from any sort of spiritual enlightenment department. It was the Thug Department.
I don't feel like lauding him for turning his late in tenure lemon experience into lemonade.....with the help of his Celebrity Connections such as Leah Reminy......
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Lee #28
Well-known member
Another aspect of how to view Mike Rinder......
As a Public....I had no idea who he was. Probably never heard his name at all....
But, from a perspective like Jenna's......WoW, there is no comparison. I couldn't even begin to understand....
Nor from the perspective of a regular Sea Org member....in or out.
I just have the view that he existed in a rarefied strata of the SO elite.
As a Public....I had no idea who he was. Probably never heard his name at all....
But, from a perspective like Jenna's......WoW, there is no comparison. I couldn't even begin to understand....
Nor from the perspective of a regular Sea Org member....in or out.
I just have the view that he existed in a rarefied strata of the SO elite.
Type4_PTS
Well-known member
In my view, the closer most Sea Org members worked near David Miscavige, the worse it was for them. I doubt Jenna would have been happy had she traded places with Mike Rinder. He was incarcerated off and on for several years, spending a total of about two years in The Hole.
Here's what ChatGPT had to say about The Hole:
The conditions in The Hole at Scientology’s International Base (near Hemet, CA) have been described in multiple sworn declarations, interviews, and books — including Mike Rinder’s own accounts, those of other Sea Org executives, and media investigations. They were harsh, degrading, and consistent with coercive control and psychological abuse.
Here’s a breakdown:
Physical Conditions- Location: A set of double-wide trailers on the property at Int Base, originally office space, converted into a detention facility.
- Locked in: Doors and windows secured; members couldn’t freely leave.
- Sleeping arrangements: Dozens of people crammed into a small space, often sleeping on the floor in sleeping bags or under desks.
- Hygiene: Limited showers; bathrooms were inadequate for the number of detainees. Poor ventilation, overcrowding, and unsanitary conditions were common.
Daily Life and Punishments- Sleep deprivation: Detainees often forced to stay awake until 2–3 a.m. for “confession” or “confession by committee” sessions, then up again early.
- Food deprivation: Meals sometimes consisted of rice and beans; at times food was restricted or withheld.
- Verbal and physical abuse: Accounts describe people being screamed at, slapped, punched, or physically restrained by fellow detainees under orders.
- Group confessions: Prisoners required to denounce each other in “struggle sessions,” sometimes going on for hours.
- Menial labor: Scrubbing floors, menial cleaning, or physical drills used as punishment.
Psychological Control- Humiliation rituals: People forced to admit “crimes” (disloyal thoughts, doubts, mistakes) in front of peers.
- Isolation from family and outside world: Contact with outsiders was cut off; detainees couldn’t see loved ones.
- Randomness of reprieve: Sometimes people were temporarily let out to handle assignments, but could be sent back arbitrarily, reinforcing a sense of helplessness.
- Constant surveillance: Guards or loyal staff watched detainees, ensuring no one left without permission.
Reported Comparisons- Rinder himself compared it to a prison camp or psychological gulag.
- Other ex-members (e.g., Tom DeVocht, John Brousseau, Amy Scobee, Marc Headley) likened it to North Korean re-education tactics — public humiliation, group pressure, and deprivation used to break down will.
- The FBI investigated The Hole in 2009–2010 on suspicion of human trafficking and unlawful imprisonment (though no charges were filed at the time).
- Duration
- Mike Rinder: in and out from 2004 to March 2007 (about 2 years accumulated).
- Others reported up to 7 years of confinement.
Summary: The Hole was not a figurative punishment — it was a locked, degrading, prison-like environment where Sea Org executives were confined, humiliated, and coerced into compliance. Conditions combined physical hardship, deprivation, and intense psychological abuse.
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Lee #28
Well-known member
^^^^^
Of course that is terrible!
But 2 years out of 25 as head of OSA… leaves a lot of tenure.
It was awful when Scientology turned on me, and sent a thug to my group home with orders to get out. All out of the blue. I had no clue what was going on.
I guess Rinder got a taste of being on the receiving end also, which burst the bubble and got him to move out…
Of course that is terrible!
But 2 years out of 25 as head of OSA… leaves a lot of tenure.
It was awful when Scientology turned on me, and sent a thug to my group home with orders to get out. All out of the blue. I had no clue what was going on.
I guess Rinder got a taste of being on the receiving end also, which burst the bubble and got him to move out…
ILove2Lurk
. . Lisbeth Salander . . Back in Sweden
Rinder Obscura
(Latin "obscūrus" ... dark, dim, unclear, hidden, or little-known)
Q: When you were the main spokesperson, how did you handle press
questions about Ron’s promised return in 20-25 years to resume his work?
(Latin "obscūrus" ... dark, dim, unclear, hidden, or little-known)
Q: When you were the main spokesperson, how did you handle press
questions about Ron’s promised return in 20-25 years to resume his work?
Mike Rinder says:
August 22, 2013 at 4:34 pm
I was never asked that question. I guess in some respects I believed that would be the case, though I never saw anything written by him that specifically stated that he would return in a different body, though there were certainly rumors about him having left instructions about how he could be identified. Perhaps they were true.
Do I think he has the capability of returning? Not in those terms. I believe that one lives for more than one life with more than one body. But the fact is, after this long, he has not “returned” as “Ron in a new body.”
And I place great credence in what Sarge said about the later years of his life. There are simply too many other facts that align to the notion that he was NOT in fact in good shape and certainly was not “causatively discarding his body to continue research that would be hindered by a body.”
If this was the case, there would have been a LOT more detailed hat write ups and turnovers and farewell messages — even a film or video. A lot of things I took as “gospel” from the time I was young concerning the infallibility of LRH I no longer see that way. Including this idea that he could knowingly postulate a future body and identity and return with full recall of his last lifetime.
Q: What’s the back story? Why did management cover up LRH’s apparent failure
to deliver on many of his more hyperbolic OT promises . . . and from what I
can tell even achieve them himself? Why lie to all of us from 1986 on? Seems
like there was an enormous conspiracy of silence and a forwarding of a patently
untrue LRH mythology. The lies told were an unthinkable betrayal.
to deliver on many of his more hyperbolic OT promises . . . and from what I
can tell even achieve them himself? Why lie to all of us from 1986 on? Seems
like there was an enormous conspiracy of silence and a forwarding of a patently
untrue LRH mythology. The lies told were an unthinkable betrayal.
Mike Rinder says:
April 21, 2013 at 9:55 pm
Marty’s books and blog have covered this pretty extensively. There was a hidden data line inside the church too. I was not aware that these materials didnt exist until after I left.
Miscavige wanted them so he would have a carrot to hold out. But he also could NOT afford to say “Sorry folks, I know LRH said OT IX and X were ready and there was a Grade Chart with OT X1 to XV on it, but they don’t exist” as it would have caused a revolt. In order to maintain his position he has had to pretend to be fully in alignment with LRH and the ONE carrying out his wishes and intention. It has been a slow process to convince the masses that he is the new Messiah. And now it is valuable to him to appear to have something that people want but cannot have “yet” …
michaeljrinder on March 10, 2014 at 1:27 pm said:
If you are interested in what happened with the IRS and Miscavige and LRH, read Marty Rathbun’s books. Read his blog. Watch the videos we did together.
I can tell you from my perspective, it gets tired writing and rewriting what happened, only to have people come along and pose these same questions “there is something we don’t know and I sure wish there was a way of finding out.”
Well, you do. You just need to read it. It has been laid out by him (and to a lesser extent me). We were there from the very beginning and at each meeting with the IRS all the way through to exemption. There is no mystery. It has been very well described. So too the ascent of Miscavige and death of LRH.
This long quote boils down to a simple thing — make the truth known. That is what we have been attempting to do for years. You apparently don’t acknowledge anything that Marty has written or said because he is in your eyes a squirrel and you have disconnected from him. But I don’t know where you hope to find the real story…
The only other people present for the IRS were Miscavige, Norman Starkey, Heber Jentzsch and the lawyers Monique Yingling, Jerry Feffer, Tom Spring and Bill Walsh.
The only other people that know more about LRH’s death are Pat and Annie Broeker, Ray Mithoff and Earle Cooley.
This is exactly why we have spent thousands of hours doing blogs, doing media interviews, shooting videos and writing books.
michaeljrinder on March 10, 2014 at 9:00 pm said:
Sarge (Steve Pfauth) is another one who has weighed in, and he was there. On the rise of Miscavige and death of LRH far more intimately than me. And concerning the death of LRH, far more intimately than anyone else left alive on earth (the only two people that knew more than him were LRH and Annie). But it seems his picture does not match what people want to believe so it gets rejected. It’s covered in Marty’s book and on his blog.
michaeljrinder on March 11, 2014 at 1:48 pm said:
Ron absolutely abolished the GO. The Exec Strata was formed and the issues written about it before the formation of OSA. I had personal conversations with LRH about the disbandment of the GO and his desire to see it eradicated entirely as it had become a liability. You do not think that the GO was disbanded without his knowledge and Guardian PL canceled etc etc etc. Where are the docs? They don’t exist, remember, LRH was trying to avoid being connected in any way tot he actions of the GO or Mary Sue, he was an unindicted co-conspirator. Nothing was in writing. And though he had expressed a LOT of disgust about the GO during the “Confront of Evil” period and the formation of the Office of Evaluation and Execution, where it came up routinely that GO staff were employing org staff in their personal business, the reason for disbanding the GO was that they were not protecting him from criminal and civil liability. He considered they had betrayed him (inclusive of Mary Sue).
The idea that he knew nothing about Snow White and the illegal acts that were ongoing is tantamount to saying L. Ron Hubbard was blind, unaware and incapable of spotting an outpoint. That was NOT the case. He was briefed by Mary Sue every single day at lunch during the heyday of the GO Ops — in detail. If she didnt tell him “Joe Blow infiltrated the IRS and got documents” she told him what they knew (if you don’t believe he expected to be briefed about everything the GO was doing, then you also give him less credit than he deserved, he was not one not to be curious) and he would have figured it out. Believe me, the programs and actions written to implement Snow White WERE know and authorized all the way to the top.
LRH directed exactly what was to be done at the Mission Holders Conference in SFO following the one in Clearwater. The whole thing was recorded so it could be sent to him. He listened to it, sent Miscavige and the others commendations and ordered that the entire transcript be published.
All of this information has been broadly published before. Just read Marty Rathbun’s books and blog and numerous other sources.
michaeljrinder on May 17, 2014 at 4:37 pm said:
I wish to comment only on one statement in this write up that I feel is quite misleading and I happened to be directly involved with it at the time.
NOTs was not developed because people were not making it on OT 5 and 6. It was developed because LRH got extremely ill in 1978. He busted Paulette Ausley who was his auditor and called for David Mayo to be brought to La Quinta from Flag to audit him.
During the course of the auditing, LRH complained that it was not improving his condition and concluded that the assist program (that included Dianetics R3R) was wrong. He then outlined for Mayo what to do in session and this was then compiled into NOTs and other issues like Dianetics Forbidden on Clears and OTs. This is the genus of NOTs, not any failures on the part of others on old OT 5 and 6.
LRH did direct RTRC to make NOT’s “OT V” and Solo NOTs “OT VII.”
Just read Marty’s books and blog, I guess
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