Will the penny ever drop in the Sea Org?

[Cat's Squirrel]

Hi everyone,

I'm returning here to a question I raised in passing on the old board. Most people who join staff, and those who join the Sea Org in particular, are there because they want to save the world through Ron Hubbard's technology - they think that if the tech is disseminated and then applied throughout the world, there'll be no more war, crime or insanity as Hubbard claimed. Most of them work very hard (or are worked very hard) to try and make this come about. And yet it's blindingly obvious to anyone with a nodding acquaintance with the CofS stats that this dissemination isn't happening and is vanishingly unlikely to ever happen.

It's relatively easy to keep people in outer orgs, such as the one I was at, in the dark - the only people they ever meet are other outer org people, mostly from the same area, and the occasional higher-up from St. Hill who is well versed in the notion of the "shore story" and unlikely to spill the beans to them. But how about the St. Hillers themselves, the long time staffers in the Advanced Orgs, and other people near the top of the Scn pyramid who see far more of what is actually going on than the outer org people do and are in a position to see for themselves how far the CofS is from delivering on its promises?

What are the chances that some of them will start to put two and two together and realise that Miscavige's leadership isn't delivering on the promises they signed up for all those years ago, and start to question what he is doing in charge of it all? And then, once they've reached the conclusion that he is toxic to the whole enterprise, put a plan together to depose him?

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

BTW, I am aware that the CofS is set up so as to make such a coup extremely difficult to pull off. What I'm focusing on here is what could or will happen when this "immovable object" meets an increasingly irresistible force - a growing body of long time CofS loyalists who are convinced that something needs to change and increasingly determined to make it happen.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I don't think the long term staffers want to see the truth Cats ... for various reasons (and each person has their own) they choose to remain shackled and ignorant and continue to play the game ... I don't buy that they are all there trying to save the world either, they can't all be that stupid.

I suppose each person has their own reasons for joining and more importantly for staying but they are not reasons most people would find palatable or even believable, for whatever reason (self-esteem issues?) they are virtually choosing to live as prisoners and are accepting the degradation.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Hi everyone,

I'm returning here to a question I raised in passing on the old board. Most people who join staff, and those who join the Sea Org in particular, are there because they want to save the world through Ron Hubbard's technology - they think that if the tech is disseminated and then applied throughout the world, there'll be no more war, crime or insanity as Hubbard claimed. Most of them work very hard (or are worked very hard) to try and make this come about. And yet it's blindingly obvious to anyone with a nodding acquaintance with the CofS stats that this dissemination isn't happening and is vanishingly unlikely to ever happen.

It's relatively easy to keep people in outer orgs, such as the one I was at, in the dark - the only people they ever meet are other outer org people, mostly from the same area, and the occasional higher-up from St. Hill who is well versed in the notion of the "shore story" and unlikely to spill the beans to them. But how about the St. Hillers themselves, the long time staffers in the Advanced Orgs, and other people near the top of the Scn pyramid who see far more of what is actually going on than the outer org people do and are in a position to see for themselves how far the CofS is from delivering on its promises?

What are the chances that some of them will start to put two and two together and realise that Miscavige's leadership isn't delivering on the promises they signed up for all those years ago, and start to question what he is doing in charge of it all? And then, once they've reached the conclusion that he is toxic to the whole enterprise, put a plan together to depose him?

One thing provably true with cults and organized crime syndicates is that:

A) The leaders and a percentage of management are fanatics, thieves & pathological liars.​

B) "A" always gets eventually caught and disgraced.​

C) When the truth starts coming out, many of the higher-ups start to bail out and flip.​

D) By the time major bosses in such corrupt and criminal organizations start to leave​

and make deals for themselves (e.g. immunity/plea deals with authorities and/or cash​

settlement deals/hush money) it's too late for the cult, mafia or crime syndicate.​

E) Scientology has years ago already reached the sell blow-by date. Virtually all the major​

execs have left, the vast majority of Clears/OTs have left, even the celebrities have been​

leaving with only a handful of true-believers staying aboard the sinking ship​

It's too late for Scientology. Their public relations is complete shit. The brands called "Scientology" and "L. Ron Hubbard" are total jokes in virtually every civilized country in the world. The cult is sinking in their own quicksand and probably the last thing anyone will see is a submerged COB with only his outstretched arm above the quicksand holding up a graph with a "straight up and vertical" power trend-line on it. Even if the the cult's "elite execs" were being marched off to jail, they'd still be bragging about their organizations "unprecedented expansion". Have I mentioned recently that they are incorrigible liars? LOL

The only people who don't know all this are the "knowing how to know" experts.

.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I don't think the long term staffers want to see the truth Cats ... for various reasons (and each person has their own) they choose to remain shackled and ignorant and continue to play the game ... I don't buy that they are all there trying to save the world either, they can't all be that stupid.

I wasn't entirely sure about that, so I asked a Scientologist in good standing, Billy Blowdown, who has won the annual IDEAL SCIENTOLOGIST award for 5 years running!

HH
Hey Billy, some people wonder if Scientologists
are really that stupid. Are you that stupid Billy?

BILLY BLOWDOWN
No, not at all. As a matter of fact, I just completed
my Golden Age of How To Use a Demo Kit course
and it not only handle the ruin I came into Scientology
to handle 34 years ago, on that level alone I got more
case gain than in all the other grand chart levels combined.

HH
Anything else about people calling Scientologists stupid?

BILL BLOWDOWN
Well, yes actually. My IQ has gone up one point for every
hour of processing I have had in the last 34 years, and so
now my IQ is over 600!

HH
That's great Billy. And you aren't worried at all that you
have spent over $1 million to get miraculous superpowers?

BILLY BLOWDOWN
LOL, not at all. When you have an IQ over 600,
your knowingness is so high that nothing worries you at all.​

.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

I don't think the long term staffers want to see the truth Cats ... for various reasons (and each person has their own) they choose to remain shackled and ignorant and continue to play the game ... they are virtually choosing to live as prisoners and are accepting the degradation.

I agree it can look like that from the outside; is it a choice on their part though, or the result of carefully designed indoctrination, continually applied and reinforced when they're on staff or in the Sea Org?

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

One thing provably true with cults and organized crime syndicates is that:

A) The leaders and a percentage of management are fanatics, thieves & pathological liars.​

B) "A" always gets eventually gets caught and disgraced.​

C) When. the truth starts coming out, many of the higher-ups start to bail out and flip.​

D) By the time major bosses in such corrupt and criminal organizations start to leave​

and make deals for themselves (e.g. immunity/plea deals with authorities and/or cash​

settlement deals/hush money) it's too late for the cult, mafia or crime syndicate.​

E) Scientology has years ago already reached the sell blow-by date. Virtually all the major​

execs have left, the vast majority of Clears/OTs have left, even the celebrities have been​

leaving with only a handful of true-believers staying aboard the sinking ship​

It's too late for Scientology. Their public relations is complete shit. The brands called "Scientology" and "L. Ron Hubbard" are total jokes in virtually every civilized country in the world. The cult is sinking in their own quicksand and probably the last thing anyone will see is a submerged COB with only his outstretched arm above the quicksand holding up a graph with a "straight up and vertical" power trend-line on it. Even if the the cult's "elite execs" were being marched off to jail, they'd still be bragging about their organizations "unprecedented expansion". Have I mentioned recently that they are incorrigible liars? LOL

The only people who don't know all this are the "knowing how to know" experts.

Thanks, good post. Are there any reliable figures for the size of the Sea Org now compared to, say, the 70s and 80s before Miscavige took over?

 

[La La Lou Lou]

I spent quite a bit of my staff career waiting for good times to return. They never did, they were a myth. There always seemed to be a cycling of enormous oppression with occasional lightening of the load. There were times when continental execs didn't shout, or scream obscenities down the phones at the EDs. Those were the relatively good times. But really since the 1970s, at least, managing orgs was done by eval, inval and entheta. Strangely enough this approach never worked. What it did produce was false reporting, any stat that was pushable was sky high with no resulting change to the core long decline. Scientology management is designed to create empty orgs and it does.

Many UK and EU orgs were always just an exaggeration, they didn't have enough staff to be a group, they lacked the ability to deliver anything that anyone might value. The one thing that was of value was the attention we had from basic course supervisors and reges. Staff didn't get that, they just got told to pull themselves together, get their ethics in, knock it off and to get their stats up without having case on post.

It's not, to me, that the tech had any value in itself, but that the warm, loving attention of a few staff, through listening, through communicating, through their genuine warm smiles, the warm fuzzy love bombing, that's what had value. The rest was pure shite.

I believe that at one time Missions were nice places to be. Then Hubbard had them ripped apart. There was no safe place to be a scientologist without the Sea Org style evaluation, invalidation and the enturbulation being a scientologist became being shat on by or for the Pseudo army.

After a while anyone can see that the system is self destructive.

The only thing that amazes me is that there still is anything there at all.

So oddly what was good about scientorgy was the love of a few staff members before they had their love turned into hate by the evil of Hubbard's management. Some good people never did loose their soul, cynical managers used them. They were people at Saint Hill like Mick Parkee and Aila Pride who kept their humanity, they were rare. They were the only reason people opened their wallets.

Deep inside I still miss the strong unconditional warmth of human kindness, especially in these divided times. There's little of it on the internet, including on this board.

Shame really.

 

[Enthetan]

And then, once they've reached the conclusion that he is toxic to the whole enterprise, put a plan together to depose him?

It is not necessary to depose DM.

The only thing staff and SO need to do is walk away.

I had this conversation recently with a friend of mine, former SO. I pointed out to him that the only power DM has, the only power that the entire Scn hierarchy has, is our collective compliance.

What happens if we quietly and simply say "Fuck you", and walk away. They have no solution for large numbers of people simply deciding "No, I will not obey you. No, I no longer care what you say. No, I no longer care what your opinion of me is".

Just walk away, and live your lives.

Pay attention to the lyrics below

 

[Enthetan]

Deep inside I still miss the strong unconditional warmth of human kindness, especially in these divided times. There's little of it on the internet, including on this board.

There was never unconditional warmth in Scientology.

It was always conditional on you being obedient.

 

[Riddick]

I don't think the long term staffers want to see the truth Cats ... for various reasons (and each person has their own) they choose to remain shackled and ignorant and continue to play the game ... I don't buy that they are all there trying to save the world either, they can't all be that stupid.

I suppose each person has their own reasons for joining and more importantly for staying but they are not reasons most people would find palatable or even believable, for whatever reason (self-esteem issues?) they are virtually choosing to live as prisoners and are accepting the degradation.

reminds me of plato's allegory of the cave. When I only listened and read what Ron said to do, I was in his cave, shackled. This video is even done in clay (demo).

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Thanks, good post. Are there any reliable figures for the size of the Sea Org now compared to, say, the 70s and 80s before Miscavige took over?

I've seen such estimates from Sea Org staff that blew in recent years but can't recall what the updated numbers were.

If I had to guess, I'd estimate that the chronically stated COS figure of "5000 Sea Org Members" is today (2020) probably in the 2000-2,500 range.

There are probably other ESMB members (perhaps Karen#1) that would be likely to know. Certainly the current numbers have been posted on Mike Rinder's and/or Tony Ortega's websites as well.

I did a 2 second search and saw some guesses/numbers on QUORA, pasted below:

ps: It's pretty funny that the one "stable datum" that you can 100% count on in Scientology is that IF YOU ASK THEM FOR ANY STATISTIC, THEY ARE GOING TO WILDLY INFLATE IT AND LIE TO YOUR FACE. LOL. Only the blown SPs are ethical enough to not "false report".

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


QUORA Answers


Maggie McFee
, I believe Scientology is a dangerous cult.
Answered September 8, 2017

“How many Sea Org members does Scientology have?”
In the 80s and 90s the Sea Org was estimated to be around 5,000 members (that number may be significant as it could be a minimum working number.) But that number has, as has Scientology’s total membership, I and many others believe, been steadily dropping. These days my guess is that there are probably far less than 4,000 actual active Sea Org members.
Some say it’s under 2,000, while others maintain it’s still ~ 5,000. Scientology itself would have you believe the number has increased to above 6,500 but, being habitually prone to exaggeration, that number is undoubtedly overblown unless they’ve signed up many, many more from the ranks of the laity.
With that in mind, some estimates make the total number of practicing Scientologists left in the world at around 30,000. And falling…
Mike Rinder says the ratio of normal members to Sea Org is around 6:1, or maybe as low as 5:1 by now. So even if his estimate that there are still 5,000 Sea Org members is correct, that makes for a total worldwide membership of 30,000 or less.
If you buy Scientology’s [inadvertently leaked by ASHO] 6,500 number and apply a generous 6:1 ratio, that still takes you to a total membership of around 39,000. A far cry from the ludicrous 8, 15, or even 20 million Scientology claims.
Bottom line, Scientology’s claims of millions of adherents is demonstrably false via this and other measures and that likely affects Sea Org numbers. It’s very possible that, if there’s a ‘minimum required number’ for the Sea Org, the ratio will simply just continue to change to make up shortfalls as total membership diminishes.
If there is a required minimum number of Sea Org members needed in order to just keep things running, the ratio will change by their aggressively recruiting more billion year contracts from the laity. More people will have to be pulled from the rank-and-file to fill the Sea Org’s ranks. In other words, maybe there will always be ~ 5,000 Sea Org… as long as there are more than 5,000 Scientologists; Just with a change in ratio, going to 4:1, then 3:1, etc.
Heck, one day Scientology may be made up entirely of just Sea Org once its numbers fall low enough. Personally, I hope that day is just around the corner.
Aside: Semi-colon snarkily used above as a thumb of the nose to the ‘The Basics’, book re-release/cash grab, the need for which was blamed on… misplaced semi-colons. Every member therefore needed to re-buy the whole set again for another $3,000. Buying multiple sets was highly encouraged...

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Doug Parent

former Scientologist
Updated June 29, 2019

4 out of 5 Sea Org members leave the organization. They have resorted to bringing in people from other countries who barely speak english to fill posts while living in America.

The Sea Org kicks people to the curb when they are old or sick. They are referred to as “coins” they are strictly viewed as production statistics.

They get poor food, neglect for medical and dental care.
Today they have around 5000 total. They have security in place to keep them from escaping. All of this is true.



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Stephan Hokke
, Former Staff member in an Org and in the Sea Organization
Answered August 31, 2017


ANSWER: Not enough to get the job done.
When I was around in 2006 there were something over 2,000. Now there are a lot more and there is a need for even more.
It is an absorbing lifestyle where you forward the aims of Scientology as set by L Ron Hubbard. In exchange you have a roof over your head, food prepared for you, a small weekly “pay” which is for your toiletries, cigarettes, days out etc, plus you also get 12.5 hours a week of training in the tech of Dianetics and Scientology.
It is a great way to help achieve the aims of Scientology.

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Ron Silva

, I have practical understanding of it and can apply it.
Answered August 29, 2017

I'm not really sure what the current number is. But I would guess somewhere between 4000 and 6000 world wide.

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Samuel Hunter Johnson

, former Religious Studies Professor at Online (2006-2012)
Answered November 13, 2017


5,000 or so.

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[I told you I was trouble]

There was never unconditional warmth in Scientology.

It was always conditional on you being obedient.

Absolutely true ... but funnily enough warmth is recognised and highly valued in the cult ... for recruitment and regging purposes. As we know all members are taught to produce it instantly, like trained monkeys. ARC is nothing more or less than artificial warmth, an 'ability' that can be acquired by the coldest of people, to be used narcissistically.

If you step out of line in the cofs you're on your own, your own cultic family would let you drown, possibly even help to hold you under ... I've seen it done (not literally, water was rarely involved).

Warmth is used as a weapon in the cofs, often by very frightened people who are pretending to be something they are not.

I have no doubt that any genuine warmth and the ability to empathise returns to people once they escape the cult and have recovered from living in constant fear, but while in it's severely restricted.

Some of the warmest and most honest people I have ever known are right here on this board ... they're not sheep though, they have their own views and attitudes and will not be told how they must now think and after being in the cult I would expect them to be that way and admire them for it ... even when they're clearly very wrong.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I agree it can look like that from the outside; is it a choice on their part though, or the result of carefully designed indoctrination, continually applied and reinforced when they're on staff or in the Sea Org?

All of the above and much more I expect Cats ... each person has their own motivation. We could probably list hundreds of reasons if not thousands, but a well disguised fear of leaving or rocking the boat seems to dominate.

Many of them must be happy with the choices they have made though, perhaps they feel valued ... I really have no idea why they stay, but I don't think there are anywhere near as many staff remaining as the cofs would have us believe.

 

[programmer_guy]

The penny dropped a long time ago.

However I don't expect that there will ever be zero Sea Org staff.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

"I believe that at one time Missions were nice places to be."

I agree. If I was designing the CofS, they'd be pretty much the centrepiece of the whole operation. Missionaires were, like field auditors, normal people with lives.

It is not necessary to depose DM.

The only thing staff and SO need to do is walk away.

I had this conversation recently with a friend of mine, former SO. I pointed out to him that the only power DM has, the only power that the entire Scn hierarchy has, is our collective compliance.

What happens if we quietly and simply say "Fuck you", and walk away. They have no solution for large numbers of people simply deciding "No, I will not obey you. No, I no longer care what you say. No, I no longer care what your opinion of me is".

Just walk away, and live your lives.

Pay attention to the lyrics below

Hi Enthetan,

The one power they have is their ability to grant or deny access to the Bridge as delivered by the CofS, and the belief that said Bridge is the way and the only way for the world to get rid of war, crime and insanity.

That is why I posted this thread. I wanted to explore what happens when people join up expecting to be part of a movement that's saving the world, and then the penny drops (if and when it does) and they realise that that's nowhere near happening and is very unlikely ever to.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

All of the above and much more I expect Cats ... each person has their own motivation. We could probably list hundreds of reasons if not thousands, but a well disguised fear of leaving or rocking the boat seems to dominate.

Many of them must be happy with the choices they have made though, perhaps they feel valued ... I really have no idea why they stay, but I don't think there are anywhere near as many staff remaining as the cofs would have us believe.

and

Absolutely true ... but funnily enough warmth is recognised and highly valued in the cult ... for recruitment and regging purposes. As we know all members are taught to produce it instantly, like trained monkeys. ARC is nothing more or less than artificial warmth, an 'ability' that can be acquired by the coldest of people, to be used narcissistically.

If you step out of line in the cofs you're on your own, your own cultic family would let you drown, possibly even help to hold you under ... I've seen it done (not literally, water was rarely involved).

Warmth is used as a weapon in the cofs, often by very frightened people who are pretending to be something they are not.

I have no doubt that any genuine warmth and the ability to empathise returns to people once they escape the cult and have recovered from living in constant fear, but while in it's severely restricted.

Some of the warmest and most honest people I have ever known are right here on this board ... they're not sheep though, they have their own views and attitudes and will not be told how they must now think and after being in the cult I would expect them to be that way and admire them for it ... even when they're clearly very wrong.

Hi there Trouble,

Thanks for your responses so far. I'm starting to get worried that I'm grilling people on here, including you, and this thread could end badly as a result (I've seen it happen elsewhere), but I have to say that the overall verdict here isn't what I thought it would be .

I posted this thread thinking that everyone on staff in the CofS is there primarily because they believe in the tech and want to disseminate it (and this coincides with my experience when I was "in," at least amongst the ones who stay on staff), whereas what you're saying, basically, is "well no, actually they're not."

Gadfly posted three core beliefs on the old board that he was insistent everyone on staff had (I'll see if I can find them). From what you're saying, those beliefs aren't very influential in why people on staff stay there?

 

[Enthetan]

The Sea Org kicks people to the curb when they are old or sick. They are referred to as “coins” they are strictly viewed as production statistics.

The term "coin" goes deeper than this. It refers to the practice of trading people between organizations, especially new recruits, where you can get someone with the skills or qualities you desire (like "HCO qualified"), by providing other people in exchange.

It's a slave trader's viewpoint of people.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Absolutely true ... but funnily enough warmth is recognised and highly valued in the cult ... for recruitment and regging purposes. As we know all members are taught to produce it instantly, like trained monkeys. ARC is nothing more or less than artificial warmth, an 'ability' that can be acquired by the coldest of people, to be used narcissistically.

If you step out of line in the cofs you're on your own, your own cultic family would let you drown, possibly even help to hold you under ... I've seen it done (not literally, water was rarely involved).

Warmth is used as a weapon in the cofs, often by very frightened people who are pretending to be something they are not.

I have no doubt that any genuine warmth and the ability to empathise returns to people once they escape the cult and have recovered from living in constant fear, but while in it's severely restricted.

Some of the warmest and most honest people I have ever known are right here on this board ... they're not sheep though, they have their own views and attitudes and will not be told how they must now think and after being in the cult I would expect them to be that way and admire them for it ... even when they're clearly very wrong.

Hi again Trouble,

I think there are pockets of that warmth in the CofS that are genuine. At the org where I was, the ED's wife once offered me a place to stay when I was finding it hard to cope with a very difficult situation at home (and she'd given up a highly paid job to work full time on staff). If they didn't exist it would be a lot easier to leave.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Here we are. According to Gadfly, these are three basic beliefs that are held in common by people on staff in Scn and the major reason why they're there and why they do what they do.

The Three Basic Scientology Beliefs - Preface

Gadfly on ESMB posted this analysis back in 2009. In my opinion is one of the best analysis of the how the Scientology mindset is formed. I'm breaking it up into a few threads because it is lengthy. I hope you find it as helpful as I did when I first read it. The Three Basic Scientology Beliefs...

exscn2.net