"You can't be poor and be a scientologist" -the view from the rich public

[HelluvaHoax!]

deleted...

i think i am losing consciousness from this thread due to engrams or some junk. lol

 

[He-man]

I did not read all of your post, this is getting far too complicated.

So are you trying to say that whey you posted (AFTER ALANZO WAS BANNED) that you were in "two way com" with him and that he had comments/question, that was from some previous time?

Here is what you actually posted:

"Well, I know Allen is banned, but I think he might still read the forums as a guest. I asked him to provide some replies to my questions to make it a two-way comm, which he did. I thus feel it would be proper and decent to at least answer his last questions..."

So what does it mean when you say: "I asked him to provide some replies to my questions....to make it two way-com which he did".

You asked him to provide some replies to your questions WHEN? When did you ask him that? Before he was banned? After he was banned.

You said he gave you replies. WHEN did he give you replies?

You said you wanted to make it TWO WAY COM? When did the two-way com happen?

Honestly this is the strangest conversation, I cannot get simple clarity on such simple questions.

Are you actually stating now that all of that back and forth and two way com and sending him things and him sending you things... that happened in some previous time period??? Like when? weeks before?

And anyways, why would you pick up a banned trolls comments and questions and begin posting for them? What is your interest in reviving a horrible troll that has been banned multiple times from multiple websites? Why are you carrying the torch and putting him back into a website that he has tried to troll to death multiple times?

Please try to be succinct. I have never had as much trouble understanding someone's answers in the 11 years I have been on this board. I am not intentionally trying to be harsh with you, but this really comes across super weird to me that I cannot get simple explanations.

*With a completely straight face on*

Why HH I've no idea what you're talking about. I've never said ANYTHING like that before in me loife I haven't!

 

[He-man]

Oh yes you jolly well did! I saw you! Well, I think I saw you ... I may have misunderstood though.

That's perfectly OK my dear. I promise, I won't throw another dictionary at you ever again. We're not in Kansas anymore.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Just for a sanity check, here is what was posted:

"Well, I know Allen is banned, but I think he might still read the forums as a guest. I asked him to provide some replies to my questions to make it a two-way comm, which he did. I thus feel it would be proper and decent to at least answer his last questions..."

WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS BY THE NUMBERS:

1. All this took place AFTER Alanzo was banned. ("Well I know Allen is banned...")

2. All of this was based on something that Alanzo might read later (" ...but i think he might still read the forums as a guest")

3. So after Alanzo was banned Karakorum got in touch with Alanzo ("I asked him to provide some replies to my questions to make it a two-way com")

4. And after all that Alanzo responded back to Karakorum ("...which he did")


THUS ALL OF THIS ACTIVITY WITH KARAKORUM AND ALANZO TOOK PLACE AFTER HE WAS BANNED.

That's what I said, that she was in contact with him.

What possible interpretation of her words would possibly mean something different?

If Karakorum can actually answer this simple question, then it will resolve.

If she only dances around it and claims I am a liar, well then judge for yourself what that means. (clue: its not good, lol)

.

 

[Karakorum]

3. So after Alanzo was banned Karakorum got in touch with Alanzo ("I asked him to provide some replies to my questions to make it a two-way com")

4. And after all that Alanzo responded back to Karakorum ("...which he did")


THUS ALL OF THIS ACTIVITY WITH KARAKORUM AND ALANZO TOOK PLACE AFTER HE WAS BANNED.

That's what I said, that she was in contact with him.

What possible interpretation of her words would possibly mean something different?

If Karakorum can actually answer this simple question, then it will resolve.

If she only dances around it and claims I am a liar, well then judge for yourself what that means. (clue: its not good, lol)

.

Yeah I "got in touch" by reading this here post he made in reply to me before he got banned. Give it up, you still have no evidence. Oh and you still did not give me permission to post in public the PM that would prove that you knew all along how I feel about all this and why did I reach out via PM in the first place.

Go back to the beginning of this tread, read all my replies and clear any MUs you might still have. Repeat this process until you no longer feel like derailing the thread with your smear campaign.

I'm tired of playing this game with you. Feel free to continue the drama without me.
For the time being I'm putting you on "ignore" status. I've reported your posts, you can now go talk to the admins and explain everything to them.

End of comm, end of (bullshit) session.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I'm putting you on "ignore" status. I've reported your posts, you can now go talk to the admins and explain everything to them.

Awesome! Thank you.

.

 

[Dotey OT]

And now for the cloying mawkishly sentimental world of crap song as a brief intermission:

 

[Dotey OT]

Fair warning, next it's the "Theme From The Love Boat" song.

Oh crap, you got it anyway!!

 

[PirateAndBum]

OK, I've now waded through all this back and forth.

HH, Kara gave you specific and definite explanations to correct your misunderstanding so it's time to cease and desist on this particular issue. Her "contact" with Alanzo was on that thread.

I'm tempted to delete the entire argument and I will if there anyone decides to "extend the list".

 

[Lee #28]

deleted as I haven't read the thread

 

[PirateAndBum]

Back on topic. Yes Leah had done a fantastic job. But her answer could have been better.

Larry: Do you have to be rich to be a scientologist?

Better answer: No you don't have to be rich, but it will cost you $600,000 or more over time for the services you are expected to do.

 

[Karakorum]

To elaborate on my remarks about the Marty Rathbun article here is his article.

In plain English, here are scientology’s core religious beliefs.

1. Scientology’s sophisticated mix of pop psychology and hypnotism are firmly believed to be the only workable ‘technology’ for curing mental issues, neurosis, psychosis, physical disease, increasing awareness and intelligence, and for creating OT’s (operating thetans, L. Ron Hubbard’s version of Nietzsche’s superman or Aleister Crowley’s magician).Note: Scientology is at first presented in secular, scientific terms promising and then false reporting 100% workability. In fact scientology never achieved even the scientifically recognized 20 to 30 percent placebo effect in terms of long-term satisfaction. In order to explain away that discrepancy the less-than-placebo percentage who stick with it are led to adopt the remaining listed beliefs. The ‘technology’ evolved being carefully designed and administered so as to lead scientologists to wholeheartedly accept and live according to these beliefs.

2. Planet Earth is a prison. The vast majority of human beings – and billions of invisible other beings – are its inmates.

3. Xenu is the name of scientology’s Satan who established Earth as a prison and transported billions of beings to serve as its inmates.

4. Our continued imprisonment is assured by ‘psychs.’ ‘Psychs’ are defined as psychiatrists, psychologists, psycho-therapists, priests, ministers, and anyone else practicing in the field of the mind and spirit. Psychs were sent here from a planet called ‘Farsec.’ They are a special breed of being created and invested with the sole purpose of keeping humankind mentally imprisoned.

5. Ron Hubbard is the first to discover the above ‘truths’, and the only one to have devised a means of escaping the prison planet.

6. Navigation through the only hole in the wall consists of closely emulating Hubbard and behaving as he did when he lived.

7. Enemies, including psychs as well as anyone expressing any doubt or reservation about these beliefs, must be destroyed by any means necessary by scientologists. Such means include lying, suing, cheating, harassing, intimidating, blackmailing, smearing and by physical violence.

8. When a scientologist has expended all of his best efforts in the vain pursuit of these beliefs he is expected to ‘discard’ his body so that he may continue to pursue them without such a physical ‘impediment’.

Whether the ultimate belief, number 8 above, constitutes suicide is a wholly subjective question of religious belief. End quote

Regarding his claims

1. Scientologists almost universally don't believe Scientology is pop psychology and hypnosis. I very rarely encountered any who knew Dianetics was based off hypnosis and they thought Scientology wasn't.

2.This is an accurate Scientology belief.

3.This is absolutely wrong. Profoundly wrong. Most people in Scientology NEVER hear about Xenu and never do OT III. South Park got this wrong and Marty Rathbun and everyone who spent years or decades deep in Scientology should know that 95 - 99% of Scientologists NEVER learn about Xenu. This is inexcusable from Marty Rathbun as the mystery of the OT levels is used as a carrot to draw people into and through Scientology for decades.

4.The psychs are portrayed as whole track villains BUT the planet Farsec ? Never heard of it while I was in Scientology and almost every Scientologist I asked about it after leaving also never heard of it. A couple people have claimed to have seen a reference on Farsec online but I have never seen a copy anywhere. So, a claim that has almost no evidence, no records and just a handful of people claiming knowledge about it is not a core belief of Scientology. This claim is at best half true.

5. Accurate.

6.Accurate.

7.The truth about OSA, Guardian's Office, fair game and Scientology tactics is hidden from most people while they are in Scientology. I didn't know about snow white and hundreds of other things while in Scientology. People in Scientology feel like Scientology deserves defense but they usually don't know what is done to defend Scientology and utterly ruin opponents while in Scientology.

I consider it a false claim. The Scientology organizations that are tasked with defending Scientology, especially at the highest levels of the Sea Org, are doing these things but the vast majority of Scientologists, even including many staff and Sea Org members simply don't know about the crimes that are hidden from them.

8. I don't know about this one. I knew plenty of Scientologists and think Marty Rathbun was trying to stretch the truth here. Suicide is not as he said a subjective religious view. Suicide is an act which is attempted and sometimes successful. In the literature on suicide these real acts are measured. By having the metrics of both attempted and successful suicides the reality of the subject is established, you either try to kill yourself or you don't. You either succeed or fail if you attempt suicide. All of these are real things with easily quantified metrics. It is not a subjective religious belief.

I think Marty Rathbun was trying to act like Scientology inspires lots of suicides. Don't get me wrong, Scientology inspires some suicides, but Marty Rathbun calls this a core belief of Scientology. I didn't have people around me routinely talking about suicide or Hubbard writing keeping suicide working.


When he first came out with this Marty Rathbun was praised and people made all kinds of excuses for him, including a lot of people who should have known better.

Ok to bring this thread out of the black hole of madness... I'll go by these Marty points and tell you how it looked from "the business end of the ethics Alligator" when I was still inside.

1. Scientology’s sophisticated mix of pop psychology and hypnotism are firmly believed to be the only workable ‘technology’ for curing mental issues, neurosis, psychosis, physical disease, increasing awareness and intelligence, and for creating OT’s (operating thetans, L. Ron Hubbard’s version of Nietzsche’s superman or Aleister Crowley’s magician).

When I was inside, I heard nothing about hypnotism in Scientology. I vaguely remember some lecture where Ron says something to the extent: "Oh and hypnotists and tarot card readers and such are a pile of BS". I don;'t recall Crowley mentioned anywhere. I now know there's one letter where Ron says something about him being a friend, but either I don't remember reading it inside or if I did then I paid no attention.

2. Planet Earth is a prison. The vast majority of human beings – and billions of invisible other beings – are its inmates.

100% accurate. Heard it from my gramps when I was a small kid. He also made a point that this is coherent with Buddhism and near eastern mystical traditions (manicheans). People on staff and in the SO were rarely so sublime in connecting the dots with Asian religions, but everyone knew MEST is a trap and a prison.

3. Xenu is the name of scientology’s Satan who established Earth as a prison and transported billions of beings to serve as its inmates.

I never got there. But other people who did and speak about it now don't say "Satan". They say something like: "Xenu was a genocidal dictator like Stalin, not a supernatural dude of any kind".

4. Our continued imprisonment is assured by ‘psychs.’ ‘Psychs’ are defined as psychiatrists, psychologists, psycho-therapists, priests, ministers, and anyone else practicing in the field of the mind and spirit. Psychs were sent here from a planet called ‘Farsec.’ They are a special breed of being created and invested with the sole purpose of keeping humankind mentally imprisoned.

Psychs are the bad guys. Yep. But I do not really recall anyone extending it to ministers, certainly not to all of them. "Psychs" are psychiatrists and big pharma and other people that are supposed to work for that Soros-style conspiracy.
I vividly remember Hubbard speaking on some tape that psychologists (I guess he meant Skinner and similar types) who do not believe that people are spiritual beings are merely "veterinarians" and "animal psychologists" . But I don't recall Hubbard ever saying that psychologists = psychiatry = psychs.

5. Ron Hubbard is the first to discover the above ‘truths’, and the only one to have devised a means of escaping the prison planet.

100% accurate.

6. Navigation through the only hole in the wall consists of closely emulating Hubbard and behaving as he did when he lived.

Mostly accurate, though I do not remember people saying we have to "emulate" Hubbard's life as in become SF writers and whatnot. Rather it was: "Ron made the tech, now we use it. Ron was great".

7. Enemies, including psychs as well as anyone expressing any doubt or reservation about these beliefs, must be destroyed by any means necessary by scientologists. Such means include lying, suing, cheating, harassing, intimidating, blackmailing, smearing and by physical violence.

Accurate within management. I got a clear picture of all of this on the continental level and certainly after seeing the B1 materials. Strangely, at the time I didn't think that its odd that the public and regular staff don't get to know this. I guess my way of thinking was something like: "Everyone has a function. A good ethics guy doesn't necessarily need to know advanced registrar methods. Qual guys do not need to know advanced OSA methods."

8. When a scientologist has expended all of his best efforts in the vain pursuit of these beliefs he is expected to ‘discard’ his body so that he may continue to pursue them without such a physical ‘impediment’.

I never seen anyone pressured to commit suicide. Not saying it never happened,just that I never observed it and I never considered suicide to be a core part of Scientology. If someone would have tried to push suicide, I'd go after him with ethics! At the very least for being "out-PR".
What IS a core part of scientology is reincarnation and that death isn't that big of a deal, especially in the SO. You can always come back and pick up your job again in the next life.

 

[Mockingbird]

Ok to bring this thread out of the black hole of madness... I'll go by these Marty points and tell you how it looked from "the business end of the ethics Alligator" when I was still inside.

1. Scientology’s sophisticated mix of pop psychology and hypnotism are firmly believed to be the only workable ‘technology’ for curing mental issues, neurosis, psychosis, physical disease, increasing awareness and intelligence, and for creating OT’s (operating thetans, L. Ron Hubbard’s version of Nietzsche’s superman or Aleister Crowley’s magician).

When I was inside, I heard nothing about hypnotism in Scientology. I vaguely remember some lecture where Ron says something to the extent: "Oh and hypnotists and tarot card readers and such are pile of BS". I don;'t recall Crowley mentioned anywehre. I now know there's one letter where Ron says something about him being a friend, but either I don't remember reading it inside or if I did then I paid no attention.

2. Planet Earth is a prison. The vast majority of human beings – and billions of invisible other beings – are its inmates.

100% accurate. Heard it from my gramps when I was a small kid. He also made a point that this is coherent with Buddhism and near eastern mystical traditions (manicheans). People on staff and in the SO were rarely so sublime in connecting the dots with Asian religions, but everyone knew MEST is a trap and a prison.

3. Xenu is the name of scientology’s Satan who established Earth as a prison and transported billions of beings to serve as its inmates.

Ermm... I never got there. But other people who did and speak about it now don't say "Satan". They say something like: "Xenu was a genocidal dictator like Stalin, not a supernatural dude of any kind".

4. Our continued imprisonment is assured by ‘psychs.’ ‘Psychs’ are defined as psychiatrists, psychologists, psycho-therapists, priests, ministers, and anyone else practicing in the field of the mind and spirit. Psychs were sent here from a planet called ‘Farsec.’ They are a special breed of being created and invested with the sole purpose of keeping humankind mentally imprisoned.

Psychs are the bad guys. Yep. But I do not really recall anyone extending it to ministers, certainly not to all of them. "Psychs" are psychiatrists and big pharma and other people that are supposed to work for that Soros-style conspiracy.
I vividly remember Hubbard speaking on some tape that psychologists (I guess he meant Skinner and similar types) who do not believe that people are spiritual beings are merely "veterinarians" and "animal psychologists" . But I don't recall Hubbard ever saying that psychologists = psychiatry = psychs.

5. Ron Hubbard is the first to discover the above ‘truths’, and the only one to have devised a means of escaping the prison planet.

100% accurate.

6. Navigation through the only hole in the wall consists of closely emulating Hubbard and behaving as he did when he lived.

Mostly accurate, though I do not remember people saying we have to "emulate" Hubbard's life as in becoem SF writers and whatnot. Rather it was: "Ron made the tech, now we use it. Ron was great".

7. Enemies, including psychs as well as anyone expressing any doubt or reservation about these beliefs, must be destroyed by any means necessary by scientologists. Such means include lying, suing, cheating, harassing, intimidating, blackmailing, smearing and by physical violence.

Accurate within management. I got a clear picture of all of this on the continental level and certainly after seeing the B1 materials. Strangely, at the time I didn't think that its odd that the public and regular staff don't get to know this. I guess my way of thinking was something like: "Everyone has a function. A good ethics guy doesn't necessarily need to know advanced registrar methods. Qual guys do not need to know advanced OSA methods."

8. When a scientologist has expended all of his best efforts in the vain pursuit of these beliefs he is expected to ‘discard’ his body so that he may continue to pursue them without such a physical ‘impediment’.

I never seen anyone pressured to commit suicide. Not saying it never happened,just that I never observed it and I never considered suicide to be a core part of Scientology. If someone would have tried to push suicide, I'd go after him with ethics! At the very least for being "out-PR".
What IS a core part of scientology is reincarnation and that death isn't that big of a deal, especially in the SO. You can always come back and pick up your job again in the next life.

Remember, Marty Rathbun said these are the core beliefs of Scientology and Scientologists. If we as Scientologists didn't have these as our orthodox core beliefs then Marty Rathbun was wrong.

Now also remember he had the remark about psychs coming from the planet Farsec. Did we all believe that one ?

When I presented the above criticism of the article as being inaccurate there was a flood of people who were supporting Marty Rathbun and so they treated his highly inaccurate article as a work of genius.

Why do you think anyone would do that ? And we are talking about people who spent years or decades in Scientology.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Remember, Marty Rathbun said these are the core beliefs of Scientology and Scientologists. If we as Scientologists didn't have these as our orthodox core beliefs then Marty Rathbun was wrong.

Now also remember he had the remark about psychs coming from the planet Farsec. Did we all believe that one ?

When I presented the above criticism of the article as being inaccurate there was a flood of people who were supporting Marty Rathbun and so they treated his highly inaccurate article as a work of genius.

Why do you think anyone would do that ? And we are talking about people who spent years or decades in Scientology.

Oh, you know, it's that tribal thing! When Marty came out he was still a scilon and he attracted the believers (the indies) Many of them had not yet woken up.

 

[Enthetan]

And now for the cloying mawkishly sentimental world of crap song as a brief intermission:

Have to compensate for that, with my personal Sea Org anthem

 

[PirateAndBum]

Have to compensate for that, with my personal Sea Org anthem

Quite an apropos song for the SO. Seems like it would have been a more fitting song for DM to play during the "musical chairs" incident in the Hole.

 

[Enthetan]

I never seen anyone pressured to commit suicide. Not saying it never happened,just that I never observed it and I never considered suicide to be a core part of Scientology. If someone would have tried to push suicide, I'd go after him with ethics! At the very least for being "out-PR".
What IS a core part of scientology is reincarnation and that death isn't that big of a deal, especially in the SO. You can always come back and pick up your job again in the next life.

Once you have accepted the datum that "we are immortal beings, and death is just a way to shed one body so as to free yourself to pick up another", then it logically follows that suicide, in a case where further progress is blocked (e.g, being an "illegal PC" due to psych history or whatever) is a rational solution.

It also creates a situation where a Scientologist could consider murder to be a good solution to a problem. (See the case of Rex Fowler, where we had a case where (apparently) a problem of financial irregularities involving a private company's relationship with Scientology was "solved" through murder)

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

OK, I've now waded through all this back and forth.

HH, Kara gave you specific and definite explanations to correct your misunderstanding so it's time to cease and desist on this particular issue. Her "contact" with Alanzo was on that thread.

I'm tempted to delete the entire argument and I will if there anyone decides to "extend the list".

Thanks, I can live with that resolution. And it is totally fine with me to delete the entire conversation or any part of it. It was totally unproductive, obviously (and a needless waste of your time which I regret), and I could have cut it off much earlier---when Karakorum first decided to begin sending me PMs and trying to get herself very personally involved in matters having to do with Alanzo. Clearly nothing ever ends well where he is involved.

If my reaction to her continuing to post comments from Alanzo after he was banned is somehow all due to some major misunderstanding that I still do not understand---then that's certainly a possibility. It's over.

 

[Dotey OT]

Have to compensate for that, with my personal Sea Org anthem

That makes up for the crap songs I posted!! Forgive me.

I like both the posters, Hate to see it.

 

[Karakorum]

Remember, Marty Rathbun said these are the core beliefs of Scientology and Scientologists. If we as Scientologists didn't have these as our orthodox core beliefs then Marty Rathbun was wrong.

It is wrong, because if anything else, there is a lot of info that comes only with OT levels which maybe 5% of the peeps got to. By necessity an OT VIII will have a different set of beliefs than a guy early on his way to clear.

Now also remember he had the remark about psychs coming from the planet Farsec. Did we all believe that one ?

When I presented the above criticism of the article as being inaccurate there was a flood of people who were supporting Marty Rathbun and so they treated his highly inaccurate article as a work of genius.

Why do you think anyone would do that ? And we are talking about people who spent years or decades in Scientology.

There was some space opera things spread out all over the widely available lectures. I remember marcab...
At this point, unless its something I spent months or years directly working with (oh, hello Inv tracker!), I can easily mix up what I heard inside, what I read online when I got out and with what something someone said in a vid like J.Atack.
So its possible that I *feel* like I heard about marcabians inside, when it might be a false memory and I heard it only from a C.Shelton vid. These mix ups are entirely possible given my "clear memory"

Guys: don't blame me, I spent over a decade getting that nonsense out of my system. I guess I did a good job.

Let's be honest, the space opera crap mattered 0% for what I was doing back then.

Once you have accepted the datum that "we are immortal beings, and death is just a way to shed one body so as to free yourself to pick up another", then it logically follows that suicide, in a case where further progress is blocked (e.g, being an "illegal PC" due to psych history or whatever) is a rational solution.

It also creates a situation where a Scientologist could consider murder to be a good solution to a problem. (See the case of Rex Fowler, where we had a case where (apparently) a problem of financial irregularities involving a private company's relationship with Scientology was "solved" through murder)

I see the reasoning, but that was not where my headspace was at the time. If someone mentioned he/she was thinking of suicide, I would go into red alarm mode in the vein of: "OMFG! A suicide on the base is so OUT-PR!!!"
Followed by: "Why the heck you are thinking of that?! What is wrong with you? Don't you have a job that needs to get done? Don't you have you team that needs your help? Don't you have auditors that could deal with this!?"

Now, if someone would be sad because Petty Officer Joe Shmoe died, I'd totally say stuff like: "Don't worry, everything is fine. Joe was a tough guy, he';s gonna be back with us in no time getting things done. No way anyone can stop Joe from coming back to help save the galaxy. Why, he's gonna save the galaxy himself if he has to!"

... you know, that's the one really weird thing I didn't really think about before. The SO really made death seem far less scary than when I was on staff. I guess it was the "absolute certainty" of where I'd be in the next life.

Back on topic. Yes Leah had done a fantastic job. But her answer could have been better.

Larry: Do you have to be rich to be a scientologist?

Better answer: No you don't have to be rich, but it will cost you $600,000 or more over time for the services you are expected to do.

I think she messed up that interview because of the stereotypical angle. But that is not to say she did not do great things before.
I mean getting the aftermath series season 1 approved and getting them interested in making it was a stellar job itself.
I'm sure a lot of decision makers went with: "A series? No way this will be watched. 2 hr documentary at most"