Karen#1
Well-known member
TONY ORTEGA
Excerpt:
It doesn’t matter how many former Scientologists come out and tell us what’s going on in Scientology, the church itself denies what they’re saying, and some gullible academics and others fall for it, telling us that we really don’t know what it’s like to be a rank-and-file Scientologist today.
So we were very interested to receive an audio recording recently from a very young reader of the Underground Bunker — a young man barely out of high school — who told us that he was determined to learn for himself what it was really like to talk to an experienced, OT auditor who was running a Dianetics group in his area.
He took with him his smartphone, of course, and set it to record as he sat down with the Scientologist in her home, where she runs the Dianetics group, audits Scientologists, and brings in new people to send on to the main Scientology “org” in the area.
Over the next hour and a half, the two of them covered an amazing range of subjects in Scientology, while his phone was recording.
Now, we checked the law, and in this young man’s state he was within his rights to record the woman without her knowledge as long as he took part in the conversation himself. But we’ve decided that to be fair to the woman, we’ll keep them both anonymous, and we’ve redacted any reference to the area they are in. We’ll refer to him as Carl, and to her as Sally.
Today, in part one, we think you’ll see how surprised Sally is that Carl has so much knowledge about Scientology and asks such good questions. But as Carl told us, he’s been reading the Bunker for a while, and he’s familiar with Going Clear and Ruthless, and Troublemaker and a lot of other books and television shows.
We think what ensues is a really fascinating conversation, and of course what Sally says verifies all of the things that ex-Scientologists have been saying for years about how Scientology works, and how it thinks of itself. This is really good stuff.
So here’s the first part, up until the moment that Sally pulls out her E-meter. We really look forward to your thoughts on this, and particularly from ex-Scientologists.
Sally: You can sit in the big comfy chair. Feel free to move the pillow. Do you need some water? First off, is high school done?
Carl: Not exactly, it’s a little complicated.
Sally: Oh, OK. So you’ve been reading Dianetics?
Carl: Yes.
Sally: OK. About how far have you gotten?
Carl: I’m in Book Three, Chapter Nine. I think there are about a hundred pages left.
Sally: Wow. You are truckin’. And now you’re in the part where he’s talking more and more about how you actually apply it, as an auditor. So, yeah, good job for making it that far. Well, as you can see I am Clear. So I can answer questions about that.
Carl: Do you get sick?
Sally: Do I get sick? Yeah. Sometimes. Not like I used to. But, you know, even he says you pour a bunch of bacteria down a Clear’s throat and they’re going to get sick. So yes, sometimes I do.
Carl: OK.
Sally: One of the interesting things for me, after going Clear, is that other people seems so much nicer. It was the strangest thing, like wow, everyone is so nice all of a sudden. No one’s giving me any trouble. It was really interesting. Yeah, so OK. Now, are you, at this point, what interests you the most. Do you want to get auditing? You want to become an auditor? Do you just want data to help you in life?
Carl: I think that’s probably, the last one is probably it. Because, I think it might be interesting to get auditing or audit someone, but you have to pay for that, right?
Sally: Yeah, unless you buddy up with somebody and you audit each other.
Carl: Oh, you can do that?
Sally: Absolutely.
Carl: OK.
Sally: You can do that just with the book. I don’t usually recommend it. But, you know, people do it. They read the book and they go, OK, let’s go! And then they just sort of bang away at each other’s engrams. It’s usually not pretty smooth. But you know what, they make progress. They make progress. Or, you can pay for a class. Like a professional training class. That’s about 200 dollars. But then you’re professionally trained. And you can keep up with somebody else professionally trained. There’s different ways. You can pay to have it professionally done, but there’s different ways.
Carl: OK.
Sally: But, people check the book out from the library, and like I say they sort of bang away at each other’s engrams, which is interesting. They don’t kill each other. So they get somewhere.
Carl: OK.
Sally: Yeah, yeah. Now, do you own the book, or are your reading it in the library?
Carl: I own the book.
Sally: OK, good, that helps.
Carl: Before I bought it I read it from the library.
Sally: OK.
Carl: Then I decided to buy it.
Sally: Wow, I’m impressed that you can read that book, because I’ll tell you, that book was written in 1950, and that was the high school reading level at the time.
Carl: Really?
Sally: Yeah. I now run into college graduates with masters degrees who struggle with reading that book because the literacy level has dropped since 1950. Yeah, so I’m impressed.
Carl: I mean I can’t say that I fully understand it. I probably don’t remember most of it. But I remember some of it.
Sally: Well, it sounds like you’re remembering the key points.
Carl: I think so.
Sally: Yeah.
Carl: Today before I came here I read about 40 pages.
Sally: Wow. Wow. That is — now I read that book cover to cover six or seven times. You know, the first time was just, oh what’s this, and then each time I reread it it’s like, OK, I’m an auditor, let’s see what else I can glean out of this. And it’s spooky because every time I read it, I’m like, what’s that in there, wait a minute I don’t remember that.
Carl: I have one little question.
Sally: Sure.
Carl: So I discovered that the copy I got is not the latest edition. Is that OK? I think it’s from 2002.
Sally: Correct, that is not the latest edition. On that book, the part that’s missing, until 2007 — I did keep my old ones with my notes in it. I think this is the current one, the 2007. What didn’t get put in the earlier editions is the synopsis.
Carl: Is the synopsis written by L. Ron Hubbard?
Sally: Yep. But it got left out. And, like I said it’s a synopsis, and I tell you what, people have a much easier time getting through the book by starting with the synopsis. Now you’re already into Book Three. So you’ve probably already covered everything that’s in the synopsis.
Carl: OK.
Sally: But that is what’s different. Because what had happened in 2007 there was this big project. But this was the one book that L. Ron Hubbard actually typed out himself and sent to the publisher. After that all his later books — he wrote a lot of books — he dictated.
Carl: OK.
Sally: And so before 2007, teams actually sat down and re-listened to the tapes from the Dictaphone, and found that editors and typists and stuff had altered things. Some of it was just kind of not a big deal. And some — I know someone who actually interviewed one of the editors and it was like, ‘Well, I didn’t like the way that paragraph was put together, so I moved it.’ And so, any book before 2007 were essentially tampered with. This book [Dianetics] is the least tampered of them all because Ron actually typed it up himself. So all that’s missing in this one is the synopsis.
Carl: OK. I have a question about a passage that I saw.
Sally: Sure.
Carl: Let’s see if I can find it.
Sally: Oh this is, I love talking shop.
Carl: Here.
Sally: Oh, you’re good.
Carl: It says, “The seven-year-old girl who shudders because a man kisses her is not computing; she is reacting to an engram since at seven she should see nothing wrong in a kiss, not even a passionate one. There must have been an earlier experience, possibly prenatal, which made men or kissing very bad.” What does that mean?
Sally: Well, remember, this was written in 1950, and in 1950 little girls were not being taught about sexual assault. Nowadays, a seven-year-old girl shudders because a man kisses her, is it because she has an engram on that, or because she learned in first grade that this is really bad? So, nowadays? Maybe, maybe not. But, anybody who has a really strong emotional reaction to something that does not contain pain and unconsciousness, probably that’s not good.
Carl: OK.
Sally: Yeah. And, as the auditor’s like, ‘I don’t know where it is, when it is, what it is.’ But yeah, so if a little girl, especially one who has not been taught about sexual assault, if she’s having a really bad reaction to the man kissing her, she’s probably got an engram.
Carl: OK. How do you know that you’re Clear?
Sally: Oh gosh, I don’t even know how to answer that one exactly.
Carl: There must be some way for you to get that certificate.
Sally: Oh yeah, I’m just trying to figure out how to answer it.
Carl: OK.
Sally: I certainly knew. Well, we’ve been running engrams for quite a while. And you’re running a lot of engrams. And you’re getting all the really early, juicy ones. There does come a certain point where you have certain realizations which I’m not going to share with you because it, each person has to come to that point themselves.
Carl: OK.
Sally: And that, oh, I heard that when you say blah, blah, blah that means you’re Clear. No. A person needs to reach that, achieve that with their own awareness. So, Clear is very precise.
Carl: OK.
Sally: It is an exact thing. And then you no longer have your own Reactive Mind. So, now, wow you just go right for the great questions. OK, so here’s the thing. If you look at my certificate there’s no date.
Carl: Oh, there’s no date?
Sally: There’s no date. Because, in the late 1970s I did a lot of Dianetics and thought I was Clear, said certain things that would indicate I was Clear and I, what we call, ‘attested.’ I have, like, an exam type thing. Not written exam. But, it’s like, yep, you’re Clear, and it was acknowledged. Well, you know how I was telling you how all the different books got revamped? Well, at that time more information was found about the state of Clear, and the difference between Clear and a really, really big release, where your Reactive Mind is so parked aside, that you can’t find anything in it anyway. And you’re functionally Clear.
Carl: OK.
Sally: So, although I had attested to Clear, in gosh, what year was that? 1979. I’m old.
Carl: Didn’t you tell me you started reading Dianetics in 1978?
Sally: Yeah. Well, I first got involved in 1977. And I was so excited, well for one thing when I first came in to a center, what used to be a mission here in [redacted].
Carl: What happened to it?
Sally: It moved to [redacted]. Which is good, because there was nobody here in [redacted], so everybody here was having to drive three hours, four hours. Anyway, when my sister first brought me in, my thing was, oh, look at all the cute single guys. So, this is a true story. So at least it got me interested enough to pay attention.
Carl: Did you meet your husband through Scientology?
Sally: Yes, that is where I met him. That day! Yeah, so anyway, nice nice guy. Within a week I had it narrowed down to three guys that I really liked. But then it wasn’t too long after that, the other two, I’m like, no. I want that one. And we’re still married, and we have three kids.
Carl: Are your kids Scientologists?
Sally: Two are. My two sons. One lives in [redacted], he’s an auditor, a professional auditor. My other son lives in [redacted], and then my daughter, she’s the oldest, she lives in [redacted], she does not call herself a Scientologist, she does not take any classes or get any auditing, but because Scientology has a lot in it that pertains to life and living, she uses a lot of Scientology in her life, and she knows it. She recognizes that that’s what it is. So she’s cool with it. And she had a Scientology wedding, sort of to honor us, and she was marrying a Catholic guy, so they also did a Catholic wedding to honor his family. Anyway, so I married [redacted] and we’re still married. But anyway, so years later after 2007, it was determined that it was not actually Clear. So I did then get a little more Dianetics auditing, and there is specialized auditing now to determine — it didn’t used to be like this — but now there is specialized auditing, I am sure not trained to do it, to determine is this state, this new state of awareness and ability, is it Clear? Or is it a really, really, really big release, meaning that there’s still a little piece of Reactive Mind that could still move back in. So, a little more Dianetics and bingo, and now I see the difference.
Carl: Is the difference large?
Sally: In terms of how I function in life? No. That really was a big release. My Reactive Mind was not causing me any trouble. In terms of my awareness, of myself and my relationship to the universe and other people? Oh yeah. It was the right move. At the time I was like, I am so Clear!
Carl: How much does it cost to go Clear?
Sally: Depends on how you’re going to do it. If you want professional auditing all the way up? Well, it’s in the tens of thousands. Dollars. If you want to co-audit — we call it co-auditing, where you and someone else team up — if you want to co-audit and just start, you know, pulling engrams out of each other and you get a lot of things cleaned up on your own, I don’t actually know, because usually what happens is after a while, I know somebody who went two years like that, bless their hearts. Those are brave people. After about two years of doing that, they’re like, all right, we’re ready for some professionals. And they’re amazing. They were in there like once or twice a week. Now I was able to reach that really big release, almost Clear, in two years because if I was not at work — I’d just graduated nursing school, and I only worked part time, too — I was either at work, or eating a meal or sleeping, or I was in there studying and going in session. Oh, I was more than full time. I wanted this done. And so I did it. Now, what I did was I did professional training for that, so I was auditing others and others were auditing me. It wasn’t just me and one person. A lot of people were auditing a lot of people.
Carl: Is it best to have one same person always auditing you?
Sally: It’s nice. In the book where Ron has the auditor’s code, that auditor’s code is still true and still valid, but over the years he did codify it even more, and one of the points of the auditor’s code is not to allow a frequent change of auditors.
Carl: OK.
Sally: So you don’t want this guy this week and that guy next week and this guy the other week and that guy the week after that. You sure don’t want that. But it’s not like you need the same auditor from when you start to when you go Clear. I don’t know, the auditor that did the session that, where I thought I went Clear, I don’t know how long we were at it. And just that guy was auditing me. Several months, a year maybe? Yeah, maybe a year. But I was also auditing other people. Because when you train as an auditor, Ron already tells you what you’re looking for, and what to look for. And you see how it all works. So when you do your own sessions, when you’re going in session as a preclear, it’s like, Oh, I see where this is going. And what exactly are we asking the preclear to do. Like, if I were sitting here auditing you right now and, you know, we find an engram or an incident and I say go to the beginning of the incident, go through it and all that, I can’t see what you’re looking at. Right? I don’t know what you’re looking at. I give the command, you look. And then you get to see it and then you answer. And you tell me, Oh, well, you know, I’m riding my tricycle and blah, blah, blah…
Carl: OK.
Sally: So, a preclear is, I mean just reading the book will help a lot. If a preclear’s also a trained auditor, oh they know exactly what they’re supposed to be doing. And I say go to the beginning of the incident, and I know they go to the beginning of the incident. A preclear who doesn’t know anything? I’m never quite sure where they went and what they’re looking at. I can usually figure it out pretty fast, pretty easy, because I’ve been doing this since 1978.
Carl: OK.
Sally: So it’s not that it’s hard on me, but certainly easier on the preclear. Now, with what I am currently certified to do — because for a while I wasn’t auditing others — I did work for the Scientology center that was here in [redacted], but that was in administration, I was the executive director. I wasn’t actively auditing people, I was running the show and, let’s pay some bills, and let’s do this. You know, the administrative stuff. And I love that, too. So for quite a while I wasn’t auditing, so my only current certification is for Dianetics as it is in here. So I generally don’t take a person all the way to Clear.
Carl: OK.
Sally: I take people to Release.
Carl: OK. How large is the Scientology community in [redacted small city]?
Sally: Unfortunately in [redacted] it’s small. It’s maybe ten of us? Because when the church in [redacted] moved to [redacted], all the staff went, and…
Carl: How many people were there at the time?
Sally: Fifty?
Carl: OK.
Sally: But there is the main church, which is in [redacted large city]. And that’s like a 50,000 square foot building.
Carl: I think my family drove past it one time.
Sally: Really? It’s on [redacted street location].
Carl: Yeah, I remember seeing the big sign that said Scientology.
Sally: Oh, that’s cool! Well, that is the main church of [redacted]. It’s the Church of Scientology of [redacted]. So there was this little offshoot in [redacted], which then moved to [redacted]. And when they moved there I was like, I can’t, I’m unwilling to not have any group, Scientology group in my city anymore. It’s like completely unacceptable to me, even though it was a good move for them, because that’s where a lot of people didn’t have anything that wanted it. Anyway, so that’s why I started a Dianetics group.
Carl: OK.
Sally: Yeah. I do audit, but the main thing these days is the study group. Because here’s the thing: So Ron wrote this in 1950. We call him Ron. Sometimes we call him LRH, I mean ‘L. Ron Hubbard’ is just way too much…
Carl: I thought people who are not Scientologists were referring to him as “L. Ron.” Do Scientologists ever say that?
Sally: Oh, like Elrond, like Lord of the Rings, Elrond?
Carl: Just “L. Ron.”
Sally: Oh, L. Ron. I have never heard a Scientologist call him that. I haven’t in all these years. I call him Ron. Sometimes LRH.
Carl: OK.
Sally: Yeah, and people who aren’t Scientologists, well, they sometimes come across it, and they say the most interesting things, and I’m like, where in the world did they come up with that? OK, like, I’m going to give you an example, from years ago. TIME magazine put out this slimy thing about us years ago, and so the church investigated who did that and then uncovered some very unsavory things about those people. So, TIME leaves us alone now. But there was a thing, for professional auditor training, especially the more higher level auditor training, you do these communication drills, where you learn, you drill, being able to sit calmly and quietly no matter what the preclear is saying. Because sometimes preclears, you know, it’s like, Oh, I just realized that it’s when my mother killed my father, I hadn’t even known that was there! And you don’t want to go, Whoa! Or they’re running some prenatal and you don’t want to go, Oh, come on! No. Anyway, I did see a thing once in TIME magazine on those drills, those communication drills where we’re learning to just sit relaxedly and listen to what the preclear is saying and not, like, startle the preclear with going Agh! See, and TIME said we were actually communicating with people on Mars. And I said, really? I mean, if you’re communicating with someone on Mars, you’re not doing the drill right. You’re supposed to be communicating with your preclear. Also, I don’t think there’s anybody on Mars. And that was one of the ones that was so outrageous. It was just like, I have no idea. I have no idea where somebody came up with that. But if any slime stuff comes up about Dianetics and Scientology, there’s one thing I’ve never seen.
Carl: What?
Sally: They never mess with the state of Clear. I have never seen any detracting anything try to say that Clear does not exist. And I find that fascinating.
Carl: About the stuff on Mars, I heard claims that Scientologists believe that when you die your soul is sent to Venus or Mars and it gets brainwashed, is that true?
Sally: No. But at least I can see where that kind of brushed up against something. So when Ron — you ask the best questions — when Ron wrote Dianetics in 1950, all Dianetics is is ‘The Modern Science of Mental Health.’ It’s very focused on a person’s inner world, basically, their Reactive Mind and their Analytical Mind. And in Dianetics what we’re trying to do is beef up the Analytical Mind and sort of drain the Reactive Mind of its power. One thing is when a person runs an engram, they certainly have the memory of what’s in the engram, but it no longer has the power to kick them around.
Carl: OK.
Sally: So it’s very focused. But as Ron kept researching, and people kept auditing, they began to run into other phenomena, and that’s where past lives first showed up. And af first, the folks who were running the early Dianetics Foundations were like, well, that’s weird, don’t run that, no, don’t run any engram like that. And all those cases stalled, and stopped progressing. Ron heard about that and he goes, you run what comes up. You know, we’re not going to evaluate whether the person lived before or not. You run what comes up. And all those cases began to fly again. So, that’s where the subject of past lives came in, and he kept researching and he kept researching. So, all right, you asked, so hang on to your hat…
Carl: OK.
Sally: So, once you start going into the whole concept of past lives, I’m not talking about when you start remembering past lives, just kind of getting a grip on the idea that, well, OK, some people believe they’ve lived before, OK, fine. Currently, on this particular world, it’s become an electronic world, well there have been other worlds in our past that also had electronics. And there have been times when, when a person’s body dies, they sort of were indoctrinated to forget that life.
Carl: Does that happen every time someone dies?
Sally: Well, the indoctrination was a really, really, really long time ago. But, most people — not everybody — most people, when their body dies, will remember everything and be aware. Now, I’m a nurse. I’ve been around plenty of people who died. Non-Scientologists. One for one, you could sort of feel the spiritual essence of them coming out of the body, kind of going, Oh my gosh I feel so much better why’d I hang on to that lump so long. Right? Because now they’re not in pain, etcetera, etcetera. So I’ve seen this. When the memory loss happens, is then when they take the new body and usually it’s done, like, it’s just a bad habit, you don’t have to forget.
Carl: So the people choose to forget?
Sally: Choose, or they just think they’re supposed to. And you don’t have to.
Carl: Do you remember your past lives?
Sally: Many.
Carl: Oh, can you tell me about some?
Sally: No. A person’s past lives are a person’s past lives. I can tell you this. Some of them were really boring. I don’t remember much about those. But it would be like me asking, you know, what did you have for breakfast on March 3rd, 2002. It’s like, who cares? And some were really interesting. No, I was never anybody famous. A couple of times I’ve had connections to somebody famous. You know, like a servant in their household, you know what I mean?
Carl: Hm. OK.
Sally: So think there’s been a few times where I knew certain famous people.
Carl: OK.
Sally: I can tell you, now this isn’t mine, it’s from somebody who used to be real active in this Dianetics group, but he’s since moved away. So he, and another guy from the Dianetics group, they were auditing each other. They would audit here. And I wasn’t really supervising them, and one day this guy he comes in and he was pretty sick. He was coughing and he felt like crap. And the guy who was auditing him said, all right, let’s run it! The guy did tell me he could share this, by the way.
Carl: OK.
Sally: Otherwise I would never talk about somebody’s engrams, no matter how interesting. So anyway, they’re in here for a while and they come out laughing. So, this guy who’d gotten sick had a fight with his wife the night before. Just to be clear, nobody hit each other, it wasn’t a super-vile fight, you know, but they had argued. And he got really, really sick. So he runs this session. You know, him getting sick, and an earlier time it happened, and anyway he ends up in a past life where he had been married to this woman, at that time too.
Carl: The same woman?
Sally: Yep. Yeah. You run into that sometimes.
Carl: Oh, interesting.
Sally: If someone’s married this lifetime it doesn’t mean they’ve been married before, but it happens. So anyway, he had been married to her before, like long time, hundreds and hundreds – they’re peasants back in the way long time ago, and he caught her cheating. And she and her lover — and remember, this is like hundreds and hundreds of years ago — she and her lover, when he was sleeping, set fire to the hut, and he died of smoke inhalation. So, this guy has like no memory of this. You know, he’s not walking around thinking this. But as I’m going down the engram chain, that’s how they end up, him coughing, because that’s how he died. He died coughing. So on this particular day here he is, he had a fight with his wife, it restimulated this whole chain, and he’s coughing and feels like he’s going to die. And they ran that, the cough stopped instantly, he was going to go to the hospital for bronchitis, but it all got turned off, this cough.
Carl: Interesting.
Sally: And they thought it was hilarious. I have no idea if he told his wife about it. She was also getting Dianetics auditing, but that’s none of my business. So anyway, so I believe in past lives. Other people believe in past lives. I’ve audited a lot of people who never had a past life, and that’s fine.
Carl: OK.
Sally: Man, you really get in there with the best questions. Do you have any other questions?
Carl: Do you have an E-meter?
Sally: I do.
Carl: Can you show me?
Sally: Yeah.
Programming note
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Excerpt:
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So we were very interested to receive an audio recording recently from a very young reader of the Underground Bunker — a young man barely out of high school — who told us that he was determined to learn for himself what it was really like to talk to an experienced, OT auditor who was running a Dianetics group in his area.
He took with him his smartphone, of course, and set it to record as he sat down with the Scientologist in her home, where she runs the Dianetics group, audits Scientologists, and brings in new people to send on to the main Scientology “org” in the area.
Over the next hour and a half, the two of them covered an amazing range of subjects in Scientology, while his phone was recording.
Now, we checked the law, and in this young man’s state he was within his rights to record the woman without her knowledge as long as he took part in the conversation himself. But we’ve decided that to be fair to the woman, we’ll keep them both anonymous, and we’ve redacted any reference to the area they are in. We’ll refer to him as Carl, and to her as Sally.
Today, in part one, we think you’ll see how surprised Sally is that Carl has so much knowledge about Scientology and asks such good questions. But as Carl told us, he’s been reading the Bunker for a while, and he’s familiar with Going Clear and Ruthless, and Troublemaker and a lot of other books and television shows.
We think what ensues is a really fascinating conversation, and of course what Sally says verifies all of the things that ex-Scientologists have been saying for years about how Scientology works, and how it thinks of itself. This is really good stuff.
So here’s the first part, up until the moment that Sally pulls out her E-meter. We really look forward to your thoughts on this, and particularly from ex-Scientologists.
Sally: You can sit in the big comfy chair. Feel free to move the pillow. Do you need some water? First off, is high school done?
Carl: Not exactly, it’s a little complicated.
Sally: Oh, OK. So you’ve been reading Dianetics?
Carl: Yes.
Sally: OK. About how far have you gotten?
Carl: I’m in Book Three, Chapter Nine. I think there are about a hundred pages left.
Sally: Wow. You are truckin’. And now you’re in the part where he’s talking more and more about how you actually apply it, as an auditor. So, yeah, good job for making it that far. Well, as you can see I am Clear. So I can answer questions about that.
Carl: Do you get sick?
Sally: Do I get sick? Yeah. Sometimes. Not like I used to. But, you know, even he says you pour a bunch of bacteria down a Clear’s throat and they’re going to get sick. So yes, sometimes I do.
Carl: OK.
Sally: One of the interesting things for me, after going Clear, is that other people seems so much nicer. It was the strangest thing, like wow, everyone is so nice all of a sudden. No one’s giving me any trouble. It was really interesting. Yeah, so OK. Now, are you, at this point, what interests you the most. Do you want to get auditing? You want to become an auditor? Do you just want data to help you in life?
Carl: I think that’s probably, the last one is probably it. Because, I think it might be interesting to get auditing or audit someone, but you have to pay for that, right?
Sally: Yeah, unless you buddy up with somebody and you audit each other.
Carl: Oh, you can do that?
Sally: Absolutely.
Carl: OK.
Sally: You can do that just with the book. I don’t usually recommend it. But, you know, people do it. They read the book and they go, OK, let’s go! And then they just sort of bang away at each other’s engrams. It’s usually not pretty smooth. But you know what, they make progress. They make progress. Or, you can pay for a class. Like a professional training class. That’s about 200 dollars. But then you’re professionally trained. And you can keep up with somebody else professionally trained. There’s different ways. You can pay to have it professionally done, but there’s different ways.
Carl: OK.
Sally: But, people check the book out from the library, and like I say they sort of bang away at each other’s engrams, which is interesting. They don’t kill each other. So they get somewhere.
Carl: OK.
Sally: Yeah, yeah. Now, do you own the book, or are your reading it in the library?
Carl: I own the book.
Sally: OK, good, that helps.
Carl: Before I bought it I read it from the library.
Sally: OK.
Carl: Then I decided to buy it.
Sally: Wow, I’m impressed that you can read that book, because I’ll tell you, that book was written in 1950, and that was the high school reading level at the time.
Carl: Really?
Sally: Yeah. I now run into college graduates with masters degrees who struggle with reading that book because the literacy level has dropped since 1950. Yeah, so I’m impressed.
Carl: I mean I can’t say that I fully understand it. I probably don’t remember most of it. But I remember some of it.
Sally: Well, it sounds like you’re remembering the key points.
Carl: I think so.
Sally: Yeah.
Carl: Today before I came here I read about 40 pages.
Sally: Wow. Wow. That is — now I read that book cover to cover six or seven times. You know, the first time was just, oh what’s this, and then each time I reread it it’s like, OK, I’m an auditor, let’s see what else I can glean out of this. And it’s spooky because every time I read it, I’m like, what’s that in there, wait a minute I don’t remember that.
Carl: I have one little question.
Sally: Sure.
Carl: So I discovered that the copy I got is not the latest edition. Is that OK? I think it’s from 2002.
Sally: Correct, that is not the latest edition. On that book, the part that’s missing, until 2007 — I did keep my old ones with my notes in it. I think this is the current one, the 2007. What didn’t get put in the earlier editions is the synopsis.
Carl: Is the synopsis written by L. Ron Hubbard?
Sally: Yep. But it got left out. And, like I said it’s a synopsis, and I tell you what, people have a much easier time getting through the book by starting with the synopsis. Now you’re already into Book Three. So you’ve probably already covered everything that’s in the synopsis.
Carl: OK.
Sally: But that is what’s different. Because what had happened in 2007 there was this big project. But this was the one book that L. Ron Hubbard actually typed out himself and sent to the publisher. After that all his later books — he wrote a lot of books — he dictated.
Carl: OK.
Sally: And so before 2007, teams actually sat down and re-listened to the tapes from the Dictaphone, and found that editors and typists and stuff had altered things. Some of it was just kind of not a big deal. And some — I know someone who actually interviewed one of the editors and it was like, ‘Well, I didn’t like the way that paragraph was put together, so I moved it.’ And so, any book before 2007 were essentially tampered with. This book [Dianetics] is the least tampered of them all because Ron actually typed it up himself. So all that’s missing in this one is the synopsis.
Carl: OK. I have a question about a passage that I saw.
Sally: Sure.
Carl: Let’s see if I can find it.
Sally: Oh this is, I love talking shop.
Carl: Here.
Sally: Oh, you’re good.
Carl: It says, “The seven-year-old girl who shudders because a man kisses her is not computing; she is reacting to an engram since at seven she should see nothing wrong in a kiss, not even a passionate one. There must have been an earlier experience, possibly prenatal, which made men or kissing very bad.” What does that mean?
Sally: Well, remember, this was written in 1950, and in 1950 little girls were not being taught about sexual assault. Nowadays, a seven-year-old girl shudders because a man kisses her, is it because she has an engram on that, or because she learned in first grade that this is really bad? So, nowadays? Maybe, maybe not. But, anybody who has a really strong emotional reaction to something that does not contain pain and unconsciousness, probably that’s not good.
Carl: OK.
Sally: Yeah. And, as the auditor’s like, ‘I don’t know where it is, when it is, what it is.’ But yeah, so if a little girl, especially one who has not been taught about sexual assault, if she’s having a really bad reaction to the man kissing her, she’s probably got an engram.
Carl: OK. How do you know that you’re Clear?
Sally: Oh gosh, I don’t even know how to answer that one exactly.
Carl: There must be some way for you to get that certificate.
Sally: Oh yeah, I’m just trying to figure out how to answer it.
Carl: OK.
Sally: I certainly knew. Well, we’ve been running engrams for quite a while. And you’re running a lot of engrams. And you’re getting all the really early, juicy ones. There does come a certain point where you have certain realizations which I’m not going to share with you because it, each person has to come to that point themselves.
Carl: OK.
Sally: And that, oh, I heard that when you say blah, blah, blah that means you’re Clear. No. A person needs to reach that, achieve that with their own awareness. So, Clear is very precise.
Carl: OK.
Sally: It is an exact thing. And then you no longer have your own Reactive Mind. So, now, wow you just go right for the great questions. OK, so here’s the thing. If you look at my certificate there’s no date.
Carl: Oh, there’s no date?
Sally: There’s no date. Because, in the late 1970s I did a lot of Dianetics and thought I was Clear, said certain things that would indicate I was Clear and I, what we call, ‘attested.’ I have, like, an exam type thing. Not written exam. But, it’s like, yep, you’re Clear, and it was acknowledged. Well, you know how I was telling you how all the different books got revamped? Well, at that time more information was found about the state of Clear, and the difference between Clear and a really, really big release, where your Reactive Mind is so parked aside, that you can’t find anything in it anyway. And you’re functionally Clear.
Carl: OK.
Sally: So, although I had attested to Clear, in gosh, what year was that? 1979. I’m old.
Carl: Didn’t you tell me you started reading Dianetics in 1978?
Sally: Yeah. Well, I first got involved in 1977. And I was so excited, well for one thing when I first came in to a center, what used to be a mission here in [redacted].
Carl: What happened to it?
Sally: It moved to [redacted]. Which is good, because there was nobody here in [redacted], so everybody here was having to drive three hours, four hours. Anyway, when my sister first brought me in, my thing was, oh, look at all the cute single guys. So, this is a true story. So at least it got me interested enough to pay attention.
Carl: Did you meet your husband through Scientology?
Sally: Yes, that is where I met him. That day! Yeah, so anyway, nice nice guy. Within a week I had it narrowed down to three guys that I really liked. But then it wasn’t too long after that, the other two, I’m like, no. I want that one. And we’re still married, and we have three kids.
Carl: Are your kids Scientologists?
Sally: Two are. My two sons. One lives in [redacted], he’s an auditor, a professional auditor. My other son lives in [redacted], and then my daughter, she’s the oldest, she lives in [redacted], she does not call herself a Scientologist, she does not take any classes or get any auditing, but because Scientology has a lot in it that pertains to life and living, she uses a lot of Scientology in her life, and she knows it. She recognizes that that’s what it is. So she’s cool with it. And she had a Scientology wedding, sort of to honor us, and she was marrying a Catholic guy, so they also did a Catholic wedding to honor his family. Anyway, so I married [redacted] and we’re still married. But anyway, so years later after 2007, it was determined that it was not actually Clear. So I did then get a little more Dianetics auditing, and there is specialized auditing now to determine — it didn’t used to be like this — but now there is specialized auditing, I am sure not trained to do it, to determine is this state, this new state of awareness and ability, is it Clear? Or is it a really, really, really big release, meaning that there’s still a little piece of Reactive Mind that could still move back in. So, a little more Dianetics and bingo, and now I see the difference.
Carl: Is the difference large?
Sally: In terms of how I function in life? No. That really was a big release. My Reactive Mind was not causing me any trouble. In terms of my awareness, of myself and my relationship to the universe and other people? Oh yeah. It was the right move. At the time I was like, I am so Clear!
Carl: How much does it cost to go Clear?
Sally: Depends on how you’re going to do it. If you want professional auditing all the way up? Well, it’s in the tens of thousands. Dollars. If you want to co-audit — we call it co-auditing, where you and someone else team up — if you want to co-audit and just start, you know, pulling engrams out of each other and you get a lot of things cleaned up on your own, I don’t actually know, because usually what happens is after a while, I know somebody who went two years like that, bless their hearts. Those are brave people. After about two years of doing that, they’re like, all right, we’re ready for some professionals. And they’re amazing. They were in there like once or twice a week. Now I was able to reach that really big release, almost Clear, in two years because if I was not at work — I’d just graduated nursing school, and I only worked part time, too — I was either at work, or eating a meal or sleeping, or I was in there studying and going in session. Oh, I was more than full time. I wanted this done. And so I did it. Now, what I did was I did professional training for that, so I was auditing others and others were auditing me. It wasn’t just me and one person. A lot of people were auditing a lot of people.
Carl: Is it best to have one same person always auditing you?
Sally: It’s nice. In the book where Ron has the auditor’s code, that auditor’s code is still true and still valid, but over the years he did codify it even more, and one of the points of the auditor’s code is not to allow a frequent change of auditors.
Carl: OK.
Sally: So you don’t want this guy this week and that guy next week and this guy the other week and that guy the week after that. You sure don’t want that. But it’s not like you need the same auditor from when you start to when you go Clear. I don’t know, the auditor that did the session that, where I thought I went Clear, I don’t know how long we were at it. And just that guy was auditing me. Several months, a year maybe? Yeah, maybe a year. But I was also auditing other people. Because when you train as an auditor, Ron already tells you what you’re looking for, and what to look for. And you see how it all works. So when you do your own sessions, when you’re going in session as a preclear, it’s like, Oh, I see where this is going. And what exactly are we asking the preclear to do. Like, if I were sitting here auditing you right now and, you know, we find an engram or an incident and I say go to the beginning of the incident, go through it and all that, I can’t see what you’re looking at. Right? I don’t know what you’re looking at. I give the command, you look. And then you get to see it and then you answer. And you tell me, Oh, well, you know, I’m riding my tricycle and blah, blah, blah…
Carl: OK.
Sally: So, a preclear is, I mean just reading the book will help a lot. If a preclear’s also a trained auditor, oh they know exactly what they’re supposed to be doing. And I say go to the beginning of the incident, and I know they go to the beginning of the incident. A preclear who doesn’t know anything? I’m never quite sure where they went and what they’re looking at. I can usually figure it out pretty fast, pretty easy, because I’ve been doing this since 1978.
Carl: OK.
Sally: So it’s not that it’s hard on me, but certainly easier on the preclear. Now, with what I am currently certified to do — because for a while I wasn’t auditing others — I did work for the Scientology center that was here in [redacted], but that was in administration, I was the executive director. I wasn’t actively auditing people, I was running the show and, let’s pay some bills, and let’s do this. You know, the administrative stuff. And I love that, too. So for quite a while I wasn’t auditing, so my only current certification is for Dianetics as it is in here. So I generally don’t take a person all the way to Clear.
Carl: OK.
Sally: I take people to Release.
Carl: OK. How large is the Scientology community in [redacted small city]?
Sally: Unfortunately in [redacted] it’s small. It’s maybe ten of us? Because when the church in [redacted] moved to [redacted], all the staff went, and…
Carl: How many people were there at the time?
Sally: Fifty?
Carl: OK.
Sally: But there is the main church, which is in [redacted large city]. And that’s like a 50,000 square foot building.
Carl: I think my family drove past it one time.
Sally: Really? It’s on [redacted street location].
Carl: Yeah, I remember seeing the big sign that said Scientology.
Sally: Oh, that’s cool! Well, that is the main church of [redacted]. It’s the Church of Scientology of [redacted]. So there was this little offshoot in [redacted], which then moved to [redacted]. And when they moved there I was like, I can’t, I’m unwilling to not have any group, Scientology group in my city anymore. It’s like completely unacceptable to me, even though it was a good move for them, because that’s where a lot of people didn’t have anything that wanted it. Anyway, so that’s why I started a Dianetics group.
Carl: OK.
Sally: Yeah. I do audit, but the main thing these days is the study group. Because here’s the thing: So Ron wrote this in 1950. We call him Ron. Sometimes we call him LRH, I mean ‘L. Ron Hubbard’ is just way too much…
Carl: I thought people who are not Scientologists were referring to him as “L. Ron.” Do Scientologists ever say that?
Sally: Oh, like Elrond, like Lord of the Rings, Elrond?
Carl: Just “L. Ron.”
Sally: Oh, L. Ron. I have never heard a Scientologist call him that. I haven’t in all these years. I call him Ron. Sometimes LRH.
Carl: OK.
Sally: Yeah, and people who aren’t Scientologists, well, they sometimes come across it, and they say the most interesting things, and I’m like, where in the world did they come up with that? OK, like, I’m going to give you an example, from years ago. TIME magazine put out this slimy thing about us years ago, and so the church investigated who did that and then uncovered some very unsavory things about those people. So, TIME leaves us alone now. But there was a thing, for professional auditor training, especially the more higher level auditor training, you do these communication drills, where you learn, you drill, being able to sit calmly and quietly no matter what the preclear is saying. Because sometimes preclears, you know, it’s like, Oh, I just realized that it’s when my mother killed my father, I hadn’t even known that was there! And you don’t want to go, Whoa! Or they’re running some prenatal and you don’t want to go, Oh, come on! No. Anyway, I did see a thing once in TIME magazine on those drills, those communication drills where we’re learning to just sit relaxedly and listen to what the preclear is saying and not, like, startle the preclear with going Agh! See, and TIME said we were actually communicating with people on Mars. And I said, really? I mean, if you’re communicating with someone on Mars, you’re not doing the drill right. You’re supposed to be communicating with your preclear. Also, I don’t think there’s anybody on Mars. And that was one of the ones that was so outrageous. It was just like, I have no idea. I have no idea where somebody came up with that. But if any slime stuff comes up about Dianetics and Scientology, there’s one thing I’ve never seen.
Carl: What?
Sally: They never mess with the state of Clear. I have never seen any detracting anything try to say that Clear does not exist. And I find that fascinating.
Carl: About the stuff on Mars, I heard claims that Scientologists believe that when you die your soul is sent to Venus or Mars and it gets brainwashed, is that true?
Sally: No. But at least I can see where that kind of brushed up against something. So when Ron — you ask the best questions — when Ron wrote Dianetics in 1950, all Dianetics is is ‘The Modern Science of Mental Health.’ It’s very focused on a person’s inner world, basically, their Reactive Mind and their Analytical Mind. And in Dianetics what we’re trying to do is beef up the Analytical Mind and sort of drain the Reactive Mind of its power. One thing is when a person runs an engram, they certainly have the memory of what’s in the engram, but it no longer has the power to kick them around.
Carl: OK.
Sally: So it’s very focused. But as Ron kept researching, and people kept auditing, they began to run into other phenomena, and that’s where past lives first showed up. And af first, the folks who were running the early Dianetics Foundations were like, well, that’s weird, don’t run that, no, don’t run any engram like that. And all those cases stalled, and stopped progressing. Ron heard about that and he goes, you run what comes up. You know, we’re not going to evaluate whether the person lived before or not. You run what comes up. And all those cases began to fly again. So, that’s where the subject of past lives came in, and he kept researching and he kept researching. So, all right, you asked, so hang on to your hat…
Carl: OK.
Sally: So, once you start going into the whole concept of past lives, I’m not talking about when you start remembering past lives, just kind of getting a grip on the idea that, well, OK, some people believe they’ve lived before, OK, fine. Currently, on this particular world, it’s become an electronic world, well there have been other worlds in our past that also had electronics. And there have been times when, when a person’s body dies, they sort of were indoctrinated to forget that life.
Carl: Does that happen every time someone dies?
Sally: Well, the indoctrination was a really, really, really long time ago. But, most people — not everybody — most people, when their body dies, will remember everything and be aware. Now, I’m a nurse. I’ve been around plenty of people who died. Non-Scientologists. One for one, you could sort of feel the spiritual essence of them coming out of the body, kind of going, Oh my gosh I feel so much better why’d I hang on to that lump so long. Right? Because now they’re not in pain, etcetera, etcetera. So I’ve seen this. When the memory loss happens, is then when they take the new body and usually it’s done, like, it’s just a bad habit, you don’t have to forget.
Carl: So the people choose to forget?
Sally: Choose, or they just think they’re supposed to. And you don’t have to.
Carl: Do you remember your past lives?
Sally: Many.
Carl: Oh, can you tell me about some?
Sally: No. A person’s past lives are a person’s past lives. I can tell you this. Some of them were really boring. I don’t remember much about those. But it would be like me asking, you know, what did you have for breakfast on March 3rd, 2002. It’s like, who cares? And some were really interesting. No, I was never anybody famous. A couple of times I’ve had connections to somebody famous. You know, like a servant in their household, you know what I mean?
Carl: Hm. OK.
Sally: So think there’s been a few times where I knew certain famous people.
Carl: OK.
Sally: I can tell you, now this isn’t mine, it’s from somebody who used to be real active in this Dianetics group, but he’s since moved away. So he, and another guy from the Dianetics group, they were auditing each other. They would audit here. And I wasn’t really supervising them, and one day this guy he comes in and he was pretty sick. He was coughing and he felt like crap. And the guy who was auditing him said, all right, let’s run it! The guy did tell me he could share this, by the way.
Carl: OK.
Sally: Otherwise I would never talk about somebody’s engrams, no matter how interesting. So anyway, they’re in here for a while and they come out laughing. So, this guy who’d gotten sick had a fight with his wife the night before. Just to be clear, nobody hit each other, it wasn’t a super-vile fight, you know, but they had argued. And he got really, really sick. So he runs this session. You know, him getting sick, and an earlier time it happened, and anyway he ends up in a past life where he had been married to this woman, at that time too.
Carl: The same woman?
Sally: Yep. Yeah. You run into that sometimes.
Carl: Oh, interesting.
Sally: If someone’s married this lifetime it doesn’t mean they’ve been married before, but it happens. So anyway, he had been married to her before, like long time, hundreds and hundreds – they’re peasants back in the way long time ago, and he caught her cheating. And she and her lover — and remember, this is like hundreds and hundreds of years ago — she and her lover, when he was sleeping, set fire to the hut, and he died of smoke inhalation. So, this guy has like no memory of this. You know, he’s not walking around thinking this. But as I’m going down the engram chain, that’s how they end up, him coughing, because that’s how he died. He died coughing. So on this particular day here he is, he had a fight with his wife, it restimulated this whole chain, and he’s coughing and feels like he’s going to die. And they ran that, the cough stopped instantly, he was going to go to the hospital for bronchitis, but it all got turned off, this cough.
Carl: Interesting.
Sally: And they thought it was hilarious. I have no idea if he told his wife about it. She was also getting Dianetics auditing, but that’s none of my business. So anyway, so I believe in past lives. Other people believe in past lives. I’ve audited a lot of people who never had a past life, and that’s fine.
Carl: OK.
Sally: Man, you really get in there with the best questions. Do you have any other questions?
Carl: Do you have an E-meter?
Sally: I do.
Carl: Can you show me?
Sally: Yeah.
Programming note
Your proprietor will be filming in New York this morning with a foreign news organization, so we may be a bit late getting news out of the pretrial hearing happening today in Los Angeles for the Danny Masterson retrial. But we’ll get you something as soon as we hear it.
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Source Code: Actual things founder L. Ron Hubbard said on this date in history
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Overheard in the Freezone: Indie Hubbardism, one thought at a time
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