Who is the legal owner of Scientology org's property, specifically Class Vs and Missions?

[onceuponatime]

i've looked up property records to see what orgs that own buildings (which some did even before the 'ideal' days) pay in taxes, and i'm pretty sure i've consistently seen that at least the old school buildings are in the name of the local org (as are properties bought that are sitting derelict waiting to be made 'ideal', see Montreal below which is the only example i have on hand saved) but i wouldn't be surprised if int management doesn't have something like secret mortgages or undated powers of attorney that would let them take over the property if they chose to. (also see note about values that follows)


View attachment 18373

note that this tax bill for the building they bought 15 years ago and never have done anything with, is over $100k per year! Philadelphia is around as much, and several are more in the range of $50k. some of the buildings skated without taxes for the first few years under the presumption that they would imminently be put to 'religious' use but lost their exemption when it became painfully obvious that wasn't happening, while a few of them continue to get the break. so Montreal hasn't necessarily been paying that rate for 15 years, but even if it's around a decade that's still $1m down the tubes for nothing (commercial property values may or may not have risen enough to compensate for that and other losses, such as building deterioration).

On paper maybe some orgs do have control, but like you mentioned, I am sure the church has some failsafe in place.

Things like that tax bill still surprise me. 100K+ wasted per year for 15 years and no one in the church knows about it. They always brag about how efficient they are with their money, if only those still in knew what really went on. So much money wasted. If Scientology ever has to open their books and actually show where all the money is going it's going to be really bad for them. I can't imagine what the church spends on lawyers per year. I don't think there are many things that could cause Scientology to instantly collapse, I think it's going to be a mostly gradual decline, opening their books might cause an instant collapse.

 

[LaffyHypnotizedMe]

i've looked up property records to see what orgs that own buildings (which some did even before the 'ideal' days) pay in taxes, and i'm pretty sure i've consistently seen that at least the old school buildings are in the name of the local org (as are properties bought that are sitting derelict waiting to be made 'ideal', see Montreal below which is the only example i have on hand saved) but i wouldn't be surprised if int management doesn't have something like secret mortgages or undated powers of attorney that would let them take over the property if they chose to. (also see note about values that follows)


View attachment 18373

note that this tax bill for the building they bought 15 years ago and never have done anything with, is over $100k per year! Philadelphia is around as much, and several are more in the range of $50k. some of the buildings skated without taxes for the first few years under the presumption that they would imminently be put to 'religious' use but lost their exemption when it became painfully obvious that wasn't happening, while a few of them continue to get the break. so Montreal hasn't necessarily been paying that rate for 15 years, but even if it's around a decade that's still $1m down the tubes for nothing (commercial property values may or may not have risen enough to compensate for that and other losses, such as building deterioration).

Scientology no longer operates in Canada, right?

Here is a couple of interesting facts about ATL org:



Grantor: JPMORGAN CHASE BANK
Grantee: KIRBO PROPERTY SERVICES LLC
Sales Date: 06-JUN-05

Grantor: KIRBO PROPERTY SERVICES LLC
Grantee: HAMMOND PROPERTY INVESTORS
Sales Date: 06-JUN-05

Grantor: HAMMOND PROPERTY INVESTORS
Grantee: CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF
Sales Date: 17-NOV-05

KIRBO & HAMMOND each made a million dollar in a very short time.

I don't understand the transaction on Feb 2nd 2015.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

Things like that tax bill still surprise me. 100K+ wasted per year for 15 years and no one in the church knows about it. They always brag about how efficient they are with their money, if only those still in knew what really went on. So much money wasted.

i believe those bills are being paid out of 'ideal org' fundraising accounts -- and i've seen hints those may be being raided for other expenses as well -- so they're hindering their own progress, and i bet some years more has been spent down than raised.

people assume it's a real estate scam, but when you start to look under the hood it's so aimlessly and incompetently managed like that, that it doesn't seem like accumulating assets that could be liquidated later, is really the purpose -- vast amounts are being wasted, plus they buildings they're buying are often white elephants that would be hard to get their money back out of.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

KIRBO & HAMMOND each made a million dollar in a very short time.

I don't understand the transaction on Feb 2nd 2015.

thanks for that.

the CofS bought a lot of properties around the peak of the real estate bubble, up into 2007, and many of the buildings that remain unfinished are from then, often older properties in bad shape but still sometimes purchased for more than their value has ever recovered to (they've been trying for years to sell back off an old German social hall in St. Louis, without success).

prices were going up and up then, and a lot of 'flipping' was going on, but that's not the only case i've seen where people made quite a bit on property transactions not long before scientology bought the property, so you have to wonder what was going on....

that last transaction was before they had the 'opening' for the building in early 2016, which i think like others was delayed as they struggled with final preparations like finding 200 staff (they apparently resorted to all sorts of things, but did manage it, unlike some of the openings that have followed). i'm guessing that as work progressed they gave the city an easement or a small strip of land, maybe in exchange for getting a zoning variance.

it also appears to show the property still technically in the hands of the local org.

 

[onceuponatime]

i believe those bills are being paid out of 'ideal org' fundraising accounts -- and i've seen hints those may be being raided for other expenses as well -- so they're hindering their own progress, and i bet some years more has been spent down than raised.

people assume it's a real estate scam, but when you start to look under the hood it's so aimlessly and incompetently managed like that, that it doesn't seem like accumulating assets that could be liquidated later, is really the purpose -- vast amounts are being wasted, plus they buildings they're buying are often white elephants that would be hard to get their money back out of.

I'm sure those are being paid out of the fundraising accounts. Management doesn't really care, it isn't their money they're spending, and if the local field wasn't so DB and out-ethics they'd have gone ideal by now.

Yeah, when you look under the hood like this the only explanation that makes sense to me is they are true believers and trying to do what LRH said. I'm not saying DM isn't abusing things or siphoning off money for personal use/benefit, he is, but ultimately that isn't the point. After all, if it was all being run as a scam would they be so incompetent and waste so much money? I don't think so. You're left with the only explanation being they are really trying to make Scientology work. Of course it doesn't work and all of their management tech/policies are for the most part nonsense, so you get all sorts of incompetence like this.

 

[Reyne Mayer]

Yeah, when you look under the hood like this the only explanation that makes sense to me is they are true believers and trying to do what LRH said. I'm not saying DM isn't abusing things or siphoning off money for personal use/benefit, he is, but ultimately that isn't the point. After all, if it was all being run as a scam would they be so incompetent and waste so much money? I don't think so. You're left with the only explanation being they are really trying to make Scientology work. Of course it doesn't work and all of their management tech/policies are for the most part nonsense, so you get all sorts of incompetence like this.

it also serves to keep up the illusion of 'expansion' that seems central these days.

and it keeps DM's personal 'stat' of total assets going up, even though i'm virtually certain they're engaging in Enron style 'creative' accounting. for example they might spend $2m on a building, $1m on costs of having it sit empty for years going on decades, and another $3m in renovations, for $6m total. they probably book $6m in assets when it opens, but in most cases have no chance of ever actually selling the building for $6m, especially as they've been lavishly remodeled with a warren of little rooms in an era when spartan open work spaces are what buyers now consider desirable, and the properties will have been poorly maintained for years going on decades to the point where they may be ready to be gutted once again. plus a lot of the aging office park type buildings they've been buying cheap more recently, will be at the end of their structural life (they were built around the same time as the Surfside Condos that collapsed) and worth nothing than the value of the land minus costs of demolition (which could include asbestos removal).

the Austin building before renovation, which had some income-producing rentals on the first floor street side, is probably a much more financially workable model, for example (i think the old St. Louis org had some rented spaces, too).

 

[Enthetan]

Scientology no longer operates in Canada, right?

Here is a couple of interesting facts about ATL org:

View attachment 18376

Grantor: JPMORGAN CHASE BANK
Grantee: KIRBO PROPERTY SERVICES LLC
Sales Date: 06-JUN-05

Grantor: KIRBO PROPERTY SERVICES LLC
Grantee: HAMMOND PROPERTY INVESTORS
Sales Date: 06-JUN-05

Grantor: HAMMOND PROPERTY INVESTORS
Grantee: CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF
Sales Date: 17-NOV-05

KIRBO & HAMMOND each made a million dollar in a very short time.

I don't understand the transaction on Feb 2nd 2015.

Interesting. I wonder who the beneficial owners of Hammond and Kirbo are...

Update: Kirbo seems legitimate

Thomas Kirbo

Tom Kirbo has spent more than 30 years in the commercial real estate and brokerage industries. He was a founding partner of SK Commercial Realty (SKCR) when it was formed in 2012, and currently serves as the firm’s president and managing broker. In addition to overseeing all of the company’s...

skcr.com

But Hammond doesn't seem to smell right.

HAMMOND PROPERTY INVESTORS LLC :: Georgia (US) :: OpenCorporates

Free and open company data on Georgia (US) company HAMMOND PROPERTY INVESTORS LLC (company number 0333363), 1044 arbor trace, Atlanta, GA, 30319

opencorporates.com

 

[Enthetan]

don't understand the transaction on Feb 2nd 2015.

Looks like a foreclosure for non-payment of taxes

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

I don't know, but suspect, that the property is owned by some shell corporation which rents it to the org. The reason being that Scn does not want someone to be able to win a lawsuit against an org, and then to be able to seize the building in payment.

Crafty. I don't think it can be said often enough that the CofS is utterly consistent in always acting in its own self-interest and nobody else's.

Once you see it, it's obvious which is why they work so hard to stop you being able to see it when you're "in".

 

[Reyne Mayer]

Excuse me ? Hubbard bought St. Hill Manor in 1959 at a fire sale price from a Maharaja with serious gambling debts.

that's not even the lie that he told:

'My own life is rather dull these days. I sort of won the Maharajah of Jaipur's luxury Sussex estate in a poker game . . .'
-- Explorers Log from Dr L. Ron Hubbard, Explorers Journal, February 1960

this is what turns up as the truth, from Dart Smohen:

That is an absolute LIE. He was invairably broke and only bought St Hill Manor with a loan from Reg Sharpe who alerted him to the sale as he (Reg) lived very close by. Needless to say, he never repaid Reg the loan. This was told to me personally by Reg. Dart

https://exscn2.net/threads/ruth-minshull.3528/post-97790

is that a 'donation' retroactively enforced -- or just fraud/theft?