Are the elves in DMT trips BTs?

What is a DMT trip like and who are the entities you meet? | Matthew Johnson and Lex Fridman

In this Lex Fridman /Matthew Johnson video clip, Matthew describes the elves. At 2:38 on he describes them then calls them autonomous entities which fits Hubbard's descriptions of BTs - beings which are sleeping or unconscious thetans attached to the body or near it, or in one's environment, either in the present or slightly in the past. The Pre OT audits them telepathically which it seems is how the elves communicate.

Hummm

Mimsey

@silverado611
3 years ago (edited)
I've done DMT many times. At first I thought I did encounter some higher beings. A couple of times I literally believed I also met God. Not just met God but was able to enter God's mind and see everything from God's perspective. But after further reflection and paying close attention to the experience, I realized it wasn't God that I met, it was actually my higher self. The self that is 100 times more full and complete then what our physical self perceives it to be. It was all me, not something or someone outside of me. Think of it like an iceberg, the top part of the ice berg above the water is what we see of ourselves , but in reality the part above water is only the tip of the iceberg. If you can look and go down under the water, you realize that you are so much more, and it allows you the ability to perceive yourself as you truly are, all of you, not just the tip, but you now know yourself as the entire iceberg, which the vast majority is under water, hidden from our above water site.

@chriswhitlow4164
2 years ago
I came out of my DMT trip in tears, not because I was scared but because of the love I felt inside. I also had a female "voice" giggling at me, telling me "Its alright, just let go" ... I felt she was talking to my ego self trying to claw it's way back to this reality. I'm 42 and I've never experienced a calm quite like being on the "otherside" and I can't wait to go back.

@justz00t48
1 year ago
These entities are completely separate from the kinds of people you meet in dreams. They share your consciousness and speak directly into your mind. In my experience they don't like ego and since they share your mind you can't put anything past them. The presence of them is so strong and distinct when they are there it's almost impossible believe they are imaginary. The place you meet them is also is unexplainable but it's not foreign. It's like you get there and it's like you have been there a million times but you just can't quite remember when that was. It's hard to walk away from that experience and believe it wasn't real no matter how skeptical you are.
@justz00t48
1 year ago
These entities are completely separate from the kinds of people you meet in dreams. They share your consciousness and speak directly into your mind. In my experience they don't like ego and since they share your mind you can't put anything past them. The presence of them is so strong and distinct when they are there it's almost impossible believe they are imaginary. The place you meet them is also is unexplainable but it's not foreign. It's like you get there and it's like you have been there a million times but you just can't quite remember when that was. It's hard to walk away from that experience and believe it wasn't real no matter how skeptical you are.

mimsey borogrove said:

What is a DMT trip like and who are the entities you meet? | Matthew Johnson and Lex Fridman

In this Lex Fridman /Matthew Johnson video clip, Matthew describes the elves. At 2:38 on he describes them then calls them autonomous entities which fits Hubbard's descriptions of BTs - beings which are sleeping or unconscious thetans attached to the body or near it, or in one's environment, either in the present or slightly in the past. The Pre OT audits them telepathically which it seems is how the elves communicate.

Hummm

Mimsey

@silverado611
3 years ago (edited)
I've done DMT many times. At first I thought I did encounter some higher beings. A couple of times I literally believed I also met God. Not just met God but was able to enter God's mind and see everything from God's perspective. But after further reflection and paying close attention to the experience, I realized it wasn't God that I met, it was actually my higher self. The self that is 100 times more full and complete then what our physical self perceives it to be. It was all me, not something or someone outside of me. Think of it like an iceberg, the top part of the ice berg above the water is what we see of ourselves , but in reality the part above water is only the tip of the iceberg. If you can look and go down under the water, you realize that you are so much more, and it allows you the ability to perceive yourself as you truly are, all of you, not just the tip, but you now know yourself as the entire iceberg, which the vast majority is under water, hidden from our above water site.

@chriswhitlow4164
2 years ago
I came out of my DMT trip in tears, not because I was scared but because of the love I felt inside. I also had a female "voice" giggling at me, telling me "Its alright, just let go" ... I felt she was talking to my ego self trying to claw it's way back to this reality. I'm 42 and I've never experienced a calm quite like being on the "otherside" and I can't wait to go back.

@justz00t48
1 year ago
These entities are completely separate from the kinds of people you meet in dreams. They share your consciousness and speak directly into your mind. In my experience they don't like ego and since they share your mind you can't put anything past them. The presence of them is so strong and distinct when they are there it's almost impossible believe they are imaginary. The place you meet them is also is unexplainable but it's not foreign. It's like you get there and it's like you have been there a million times but you just can't quite remember when that was. It's hard to walk away from that experience and believe it wasn't real no matter how skeptical you are.
@justz00t48
1 year ago
These entities are completely separate from the kinds of people you meet in dreams. They share your consciousness and speak directly into your mind. In my experience they don't like ego and since they share your mind you can't put anything past them. The presence of them is so strong and distinct when they are there it's almost impossible believe they are imaginary. The place you meet them is also is unexplainable but it's not foreign. It's like you get there and it's like you have been there a million times but you just can't quite remember when that was. It's hard to walk away from that experience and believe it wasn't real no matter how skeptical you are.

Click to expand...

It's a fascinating concept. Whether it's true or not, I don't know. Never tried it.

But, I have had dreams that were so mindblowingly vivid, my life in that dream was far more vivid (i.e. "real") than my typical experiences in awake-world. On two occasions I even fell madly in love with someone in a dream -- one I knew from high school and the other was unknown. When I woke up from those dreams, i wanted to "go back" and stay there, that's how blissful that dreamy world was. LOL.

I have heard wild stories of profound "enlightenment" of people who tripped on Ayahuaska hallucinogens ("DMT"). At the same time i have heard people tell truly nightmarish and profoundly terrifying experience while on those trips. Some of them warned others of the very real possibility that they could be driven into place so dark and horrifying that it could take them years to crawl their way back to anything resembling "normalcy"---and the admonition that one might NEVER make it back to sanity.

I don't do drugs of any kind but I wondered for a fleeting moment what kind of experience I would have on it. But with all those wild warnings out there about DMT, one would have to be a high-rolling gambler to roll the dice on what might happen to their mind if they take that journey. The risk/reward ratio sure seems like a reckless proposition. But, then again, people do all kinds of wild and life-threatening things just for fun. . .



..

Are the elves in DMT trips BTs?

I don't see any evidence that they are. Their nature doesn't seem anything close to how Hubbard described BT's.

Even if they are the same there's not a shred of evidence that Hubbard's story about their arrival on Teegeeack had any truth to it.

He promised us a "bridge to total freedom" and he had to come up with something to sell us so the money kept flowing. It was smart of him to make the upper levels confidential so that Scientologists couldn't evaluate the story until they star-rated KSW dozens of times and were sufficiently indoctrinated to the point where it was difficult to logically evaluate the OT levels.

Type4_PTS said:

Are the elves in DMT trips BTs?

I don't see any evidence that they are. Their nature doesn't seem anything close to how Hubbard described BT's.

Even if they are the same there's not a shred of evidence that Hubbard's story about their arrival on Teegeeack had any truth to it.

He promised us a "bridge to total freedom" and he had to come up with something to sell us so the money kept flowing. It was smart of him to make the upper levels confidential so that Scientologists couldn't evaluate the story until they star-rated KSW dozens of times and were sufficiently indoctrinated to the point where it was difficult to logically evaluate the OT levels.

Click to expand...

I have never done DMT so I have no first hand evidence however, I did do 2 or 3 years on OT 7 solo nots, and some of the BTs were very real. Hubbard does say on the NOTs materials to not get in conversations with them, but just stick to the auditing procedure. That they are in various beingnesses which the elves also exhibit. (I'm your nemesis etc.)

Matthew makes the point that their appearance depends on the cultural lens you see them from, and Pre OTs would have a different lens than non-scios.

Also, there is a parallel in that they are both autonomous aware beings.

Mimsey

Type4_PTS said:

Are the elves in DMT trips BTs?

I don't see any evidence that they are. Their nature doesn't seem anything close to how Hubbard described BT's.

Even if they are the same there's not a shred of evidence that Hubbard's story about their arrival on Teegeeack had any truth to it.

He promised us a "bridge to total freedom" and he had to come up with something to sell us so the money kept flowing. It was smart of him to make the upper levels confidential so that Scientologists couldn't evaluate the story until they star-rated KSW dozens of times and were sufficiently indoctrinated to the point where it was difficult to logically evaluate the OT levels.

Click to expand...

Life has so many surprise endings. The list is endless.

Like the time one realizes that their guru savior is actually a criminal con man. I won't mention any guru's name specifically--so as not to besmirch the good name of L. Ron Hubbard. LOL

But seriously, the beginning perception and experience with various life experiences and people frequently develop and morph over time and become the exact diametric opposite. That's why i always make some effort to leave open the possibility that (if i just wait a little longer) the story, person or values at stake will evolve and morph into a cosmic contradiction.

examples:
-- sweetness and euphoric love/romance that (perhaps decades later) ends in ugly discord and divorce
-- a wildly successful business partnership/transaction (think Bernie Madoff or Reid Slatkin) that becomes betrayal and bankruptcy.
-- a trusted holy priest that guides your eventual passage to heaven--then being exposed as a pedophile rapist of choirboys.
-- a humanitarian donation to a church that is later revealed to have been used to pay for attacking and destroying the same innocent people (who gave the cash) by means of fair game, black ops, lies, slander, libel, stalking, bankrupting, terrorizing them and other unimaginably hideous crimes.

So, let's consider the "maybe the elves are BTs" scenario. Ridiculous, I know.

But, i still "leave open" the slim, remote and irrational possibility that in the year 3,876 a research institution will win the Nobel Prize for their scientific discovery and proof that DMT elves are, in fact, actual spiritual entities! The exact same "BT" entities that L. Ron Hubbard and the
exact same "Demon" entities that the Catholic church both had discovered many thousands of years earlier. I know, it's stupid. But life sometimes has stupid endings, no? LOL

HelluvaHoax! said:

It's a fascinating concept. Whether it's true or not, I don't know. Never tried it.

But, I have had dreams that were so mindblowingly vivid, my life in that dream was far more vivid (i.e. "real") than my typical experiences in awake-world. On two occasions I even fell madly in love with someone in a dream -- one I knew from high school and the other was unknown. When I woke up from those dreams, i wanted to "go back" and stay there, that's how blissful that dreamy world was. LOL.

I have heard wild stories of profound "enlightenment" of people who tripped on Ayahuaska hallucinogens ("DMT"). At the same time i have heard people tell truly nightmarish and profoundly terrifying experience while on those trips. Some of them warned others of the very real possibility that they could be driven into place so dark and horrifying that it could take them years to crawl their way back to anything resembling "normalcy"---and the admonition that one might NEVER make it back to sanity.

I don't do drugs of any kind but I wondered for a fleeting moment what kind of experience I would have on it. But with all those wild warnings out there about DMT, one would have to be a high-rolling gambler to roll the dice on what might happen to their mind if they take that journey. The risk/reward ratio sure seems like a reckless proposition. But, then again, people do all kinds of wild and life-threatening things just for fun. . .

I guess for some people (and animals)
"life-threatening" things are not
actually threatening at all. . .

....​

..

Click to expand...

Interesting conversation
I had never heard of DMT before today and I find it all fascinating

Isaac said:

Interesting conversation
I had never heard of DMT before today and I find it all fascinating

Click to expand...

N, N-Dimethyltryptamine is a substituted tryptamine that occurs in many plants and animals, including humans, and which is both a derivative and a structural analog of tryptamine. DMT is used as a psychedelic drug and prepared by various cultures for ritual purposes as an entheogen. Wikipedia

DMT is a hallucinogenic tryptamine drug that occurs naturally in various plants, such as Psychotria viridis or Chacruna. Some people call it the “spirit molecule” due to the intense psychedelic experience.
Although less familiar than other psychedelics such as LSD or magic mushrooms, N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) produces a brief but intense visual and auditory hallucinogenic experience.

The chemical root structure of DMT is similar to the anti-migraine drug sumatriptan, and it acts as a non-selective agonist at most or all of the serotonin receptors, particularly at the serotonin 5-HT2a receptor.

Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that has a large effect on the majority of our brain cells.

There is some evidenceTrusted Source that the body also produces DMT endogenously. This means the body makes DMT, likely in the pineal gland of the brain.

A typical smoked dose of DMT is 40 to 50 milligrams (mg)Trusted Source but may be as much as 100 mg. The drug begins working almost instantly. The effects peak and plateau for 2 to 5 minutes and gradually drop off with the duration of effect totaling up to 30 minutes.

When consumed as a brew in the form of ayahuasca, the dose is between 0.6—0.85 mg for every kilogram of liquid. Effects begin within 60 minutes, peak after 90 minutes, and disappear in approximately 4 hours.


It's considered an active compound in Ayahuasca which "is a South American psychoactive brew, traditionally used by Indigenous cultures and folk healers in the Amazon and Orinoco basins for spiritual ceremonies, divination, and healing a variety of psychosomatic complaints.
Ayahuasca (pronounced ‘eye-ah-WAH-ska’) is a plant-based psychedelic. Psychedelics affect all the senses, altering a person’s thinking, sense of time and emotions. They can cause a person to hallucinate—seeing or hearing things that do not exist or are distorted.

Ayahuasca is a decoction (concentrated liquid) made by prolonged heating or boiling of the Banisteriopsis caapi vine with the leaves of the Psychotria viridis shrub, although there can be a variety of other plants included in the decoction for different traditional purposes.1 The active chemical in ayahuasca is DMT (dimethyltryptamine).1 It also contains monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs).2

Ayahuasca has been used for centuries by First Nations peoples from contemporary Peru, Brazil, Colombia and Ecuador for religious ritual and therapeutic purposes.1


Sometimes I wonder about the definition of hallucinate—"seeing or hearing things that do not exist or are distorted." and whether they do exist. As an example, some people see further in to the UV than others or have psychic experiences, such as knowing who's calling when the phone rings, before picking it up. Are those to be considered hallucinations?

Mimsey

HelluvaHoax! said:

Life has so many surprise endings. The list is endless.

Like the time one realizes that their guru savior is actually a criminal con man. I won't mention any guru's name specifically--so as not to besmirch the good name of L. Ron Hubbard. LOL

But seriously, the beginning perception and experience with various life experiences and people frequently develop and morph over time and become the exact diametric opposite. That's why i always make some effort to leave open the possibility that (if i just wait a little longer) the story, person or values at stake will evolve and morph into a cosmic contradiction.

examples:
-- sweetness and euphoric love/romance that (perhaps decades later) ends in ugly discord and divorce
-- a wildly successful business partnership/transaction (think Bernie Madoff or Reid Slatkin) that becomes betrayal and bankruptcy.
-- a trusted holy priest that guides your eventual passage to heaven--then being exposed as a pedophile rapist of choirboys.
-- a humanitarian donation to a church that is later revealed to have been used to pay for attacking and destroying the same innocent people (who gave the cash) by means of fair game, black ops, lies, slander, libel, stalking, bankrupting, terrorizing them and other unimaginably hideous crimes.

So, let's consider the "maybe the elves are BTs" scenario. Ridiculous, I know.

But, i still "leave open" the slim, remote and irrational possibility that in the year 3,876 a research institution will win the Nobel Prize for their scientific discovery and proof that DMT elves are, in fact, actual spiritual entities! The exact same "BT" entities that L. Ron Hubbard and the
exact same "Demon" entities that the Catholic church both had discovered many thousands of years earlier. I know, it's stupid. But life sometimes has stupid endings, no? LOL

(link to article): "On 26 February 1616, Galileo Galilei was formally banned & banished by ​

the Roman Catholic Church for...Teaching and defending the opinion that the Earth orbits the​

Sun. The church did not officially rectify its error until 31 October 1992, when Pope John Paul ​

redacted the church’s 1633 condemnation of Galileo. The condemnation, which forced the ​

astronomer and physicist to recant his discoveries, led to Galileo’s house arrest for eight ​

years before his death in 1642 at the age of 77."​

I think the Las Vegas odds are about............
0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000001%
that anything that L. Ron Hubbard "discovered" with his
"wholetrack research" turns out to be true.
But just in case, what if:


What if it turns out that the DMT elves are 100% reality.

And what if they are very productively engaged in auditing out and blowing their own BTs.

And what if the dormant-db-alien BTs in that elf scenario turn out to be— us (humans). LOL

My name is Rod, and
I approve of this post!



...​

Click to expand...

Robert Monroe thought that we carry our past life selves with us who guide us off and on - a concept unlike BTs, which are different beings. I guess you could liken them to memories of cars you have owned prior to the one you drive now.

Mimsey

How did Robert Monroe meet his past lives?
Question
I think it was in far journies, but Robert Monroe wrote how he began to look inwards (not sure if this was during an ap) and found that after passing 3 barriers, one of which was fear based, he then saw a bunch of lights. Each light corresponded with a past life and he was able to communicate with several of them. They told him a bunch of things including how they believed in his ability to accomplish their ultimate goal. Does anyone have any specifics on how he did this? If I remember correctly his directions were kinda vague. If so, please share some of your experiences and how you did it.
I think it's also important to mention I've done those past lives regression hypnosis videos, but those were different from what monroe did. Those were visions of past lives, not necessarily the ability to communicate with your past lives.

How did Robert Monroe meet his past lives? : r/AstralProjection (reddit.com)

slipknot_official
•3y ago

Explaining this stuff is so hard because it's in a realm outside of human understanding. Human terms and metaphors break down, and how Monroe described it was the best he could with what he had, and could express to others.
How I understand it is your "soul cluster" as a database of all your past lives and incarnations. If you find a way to communicate with it via your intent, it will be expressed in a way that you can understand it based on your human metaphors, beliefs and fears. But it can be past lives in other non-physical realities, other planets, or on earth past. So it can be confusing to really grasp what is being expressed without some extensive exposure in the non-physical (astral).
Basically he did it by going out of body ALOT. Getting in touch with guides. Getting in touch with the system (the creator; everything that is). Becoming spiritual advanced enough to do so.

mimsey borogrove said:

N, N-Dimethyltryptamine is a substituted tryptamine that occurs in many plants and animals, including humans, and which is both a derivative and a structural analog of tryptamine. DMT is used as a psychedelic drug and prepared by various cultures for ritual purposes as an entheogen. Wikipedia

DMT is a hallucinogenic tryptamine drug that occurs naturally in various plants, such as Psychotria viridis or Chacruna. Some people call it the “spirit molecule” due to the intense psychedelic experience.
Although less familiar than other psychedelics such as LSD or magic mushrooms, N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) produces a brief but intense visual and auditory hallucinogenic experience.

The chemical root structure of DMT is similar to the anti-migraine drug sumatriptan, and it acts as a non-selective agonist at most or all of the serotonin receptors, particularly at the serotonin 5-HT2a receptor.

Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that has a large effect on the majority of our brain cells.

There is some evidenceTrusted Source that the body also produces DMT endogenously. This means the body makes DMT, likely in the pineal gland of the brain.

A typical smoked dose of DMT is 40 to 50 milligrams (mg)Trusted Source but may be as much as 100 mg. The drug begins working almost instantly. The effects peak and plateau for 2 to 5 minutes and gradually drop off with the duration of effect totaling up to 30 minutes.

When consumed as a brew in the form of ayahuasca, the dose is between 0.6—0.85 mg for every kilogram of liquid. Effects begin within 60 minutes, peak after 90 minutes, and disappear in approximately 4 hours.

Everything you need to know about DMT

DMT is a hallucinogenic and psychedelic drug that occurs naturally in many plants and animals. Learn about its history, side effects, risks, and street names.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

It's considered an active compound in Ayahuasca which "is a South American psychoactive brew, traditionally used by Indigenous cultures and folk healers in the Amazon and Orinoco basins for spiritual ceremonies, divination, and healing a variety of psychosomatic complaints.
Ayahuasca (pronounced ‘eye-ah-WAH-ska’) is a plant-based psychedelic. Psychedelics affect all the senses, altering a person’s thinking, sense of time and emotions. They can cause a person to hallucinate—seeing or hearing things that do not exist or are distorted.

Ayahuasca is a decoction (concentrated liquid) made by prolonged heating or boiling of the Banisteriopsis caapi vine with the leaves of the Psychotria viridis shrub, although there can be a variety of other plants included in the decoction for different traditional purposes.1 The active chemical in ayahuasca is DMT (dimethyltryptamine).1 It also contains monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs).2

Ayahuasca has been used for centuries by First Nations peoples from contemporary Peru, Brazil, Colombia and Ecuador for religious ritual and therapeutic purposes.1

Ayahuasca - Alcohol and Drug Foundation

Explore ayahuasca's powerful psychedelic effects, traditional ceremonial uses, and modern practices. Learn about its impact on perception, potential risks, and legal status.

adf.org.au

Sometimes I wonder about the definition of hallucinate—"seeing or hearing things that do not exist or are distorted." and whether they do exist. As an example, some people see further in to the UV than others or have psychic experiences, such as knowing who's calling when the phone rings, before picking it up. Are those to be considered hallucinations?

Mimsey

Click to expand...

Thank you for all of that info
I don’t think I’ll try this drug
I’m a hot mess just smoking one hit of Willie Nelson’s weed purchased from a pot store in Durango Colorado
I was Paranoid beyond belief
I hated every minute of that experience and tried to eat myself out of that state
lol
On a positive note… I discovered the “grilled” peanut butter and jelly sandwich - which was awesome

.

mimsey borogrove said:

.
I have never done DMT so I have no first hand evidence however, I did
do 2 or 3 years on OT 7 solo nots, and some of the BTs were very real.
.

Click to expand...

I think that OT 7 fully qualifies as a psychedelic experience induced by the hallucinogenic
agent DMT (Delusional Miracle Therapy).

I am no expert on the mechanics of how exactly all people are susceptible to being seduced into BELIEVING IN myths, whether authored by others or themselves).

I will say this about Scientology's OT III thru OT VII, however. Stalking BTs and trying to figure out their creatively conniving methods of cratering your life is an exercise that DOES produce wins. The identical wins that anyone engaged with ANY creative pursuit knows well. I'd suggest, in essence, it can be broken down into a three step process:


Whether it's writing fiction, designing a product, remodeling a room, composing a song, engineering a pharmacological cure, choreographing a musical, cooking delicious meals, raising children, establishing a career, starting a business---or any other of the infinite number of simple and complex human pursuits that require creativity--one must begin by exploring the unknown. And (if successful) end with the jubilant discovery of the journey's next step. It might be as simple as deciding what color to paint a room.

The entire point I am struggling to make here is that AUDITING (being audited or auditing oneself) is (if nothing else) just a creative exercise. Imagination. Simply imagining things (if done to a "discovery" of any kind) works miracles with ones energy level, mood and happiness. It does not have to be the discovery of anything within reality. It can be purely fictional. Here's a quick example---

TAKE A SECOND: Think of one of your favorite and most beloved movie scenes or songs. Whoever CREATED that had just as powerful euphoria, emotion or laughter as you did when they were sitting alone in a room imagining that and writing it down.

That's my experience with auditing the phenomena of "BTs".

I have no opinion on whether there are BTs or not.

I am quite sure that if I took an e-meter into a movie theater while i watched a movie masterpiece, I would get the identical blowdowns, floating needles and emotional highs as i did in Scientology auditing. It's exactly the same process.

I am kind of guessing that not everyone who has been in Scientology (or still in) knows that they themselves are empowering the "wins" that derive from Hubbard's supposedly magical auditing commands. It's simply a creative exercise. Physical exercise is also capable of elevating people's moods to inordinate heights as well.


...

.

Isaac said:

Interesting conversation
I had never heard of DMT before today and I find it all fascinating

Click to expand...

.
HellYeah!

I follow it from time to time to see what people's experience is. It yields the most unbelievable EXTREMES, both psycho-spiritual ecstasy AND ALSO triggers (in some) terrifying nightmarish mental meltdowns that can last for many years (or longer) after the drug wears off.

I agree with you that it's quite fascinating. It's one of those things humans seem to instinctively perceive or agree on---that SOMEWHERE in this universe there is a magical PORTAL that can transport you to another dimension or world. Some call it heaven or hell or nirvana or any other descriptive terms found in the "DICTIONARY OF MYSTICALLY TRANSCENDENT PORTALS".

Um...yeah--well, i kinda made that reference book up, but if anyone had ever written/published that book, i am pretty sure i already would have ordered it from Amazon, LOL!


...

HelluvaHoax! said:

.




I think that OT 7 fully qualifies as a psychedelic experience induced by the hallucinogenic
agent DMT (Delusional Miracle Therapy).

I am no expert on the mechanics of how exactly all people are susceptible to being seduced into BELIEVING IN myths, whether authored by others or themselves).

I will say this about Scientology's OT III thru OT VII, however. Stalking BTs and trying to figure out their creatively conniving methods of cratering your life is an exercise that DOES produce wins. The identical wins that anyone engaged with ANY creative pursuit knows well. I'd suggest, in essence, it can be broken down into a three step process:

THE EXPLORATION

THE DISCOVERY

THE EUPHORIA
​

Whether it's writing fiction, designing a product, remodeling a room, composing a song, engineering a pharmacological cure, choreographing a musical, cooking delicious meals, raising children, establishing a career, starting a business---or any other of the infinite number of simple and complex human pursuits that require creativity--one must begin by exploring the unknown. And (if successful) end with the jubilant discovery of the journey's next step. It might be as simple as deciding what color to paint a room.

The entire point I am struggling to make here is that AUDITING (being audited or auditing oneself) is (if nothing else) just a creative exercise. Imagination. Simply imagining things (if done to a "discovery" of any kind) works miracles with ones energy level, mood and happiness. It does not have to be the discovery of anything within reality. It can be purely fictional. Here's a quick example---

TAKE A SECOND: Think of one of your favorite and most beloved movie scenes or songs. Whoever CREATED that had just as powerful euphoria, emotion or laughter as you did when they were sitting alone in a room imagining that and writing it down.

That's my experience with auditing the phenomena of "BTs".

I have no opinion on whether there are BTs or not.

I am quite sure that if I took an e-meter into a movie theater while i watched a masterful movie, I would get the identical blowdowns, floating needles and emotional highs as i did in Scientology. It's exactly the same process.

I am kind of guessing that not everyone who has been in Scientology (or still in) knows that they themselves are empowering the "wins" that derive from Hubbard's supposedly magical auditing commands. It's simply a creative exercise. Physical exercise is also capable of elevating people's moods to inordinate heights as well.


...

Click to expand...

I agree there's a large aspect of Scientology in general and the OT3 - 7 levels more specifically that involves "mocking up things to run" but I don't think that explains all of it.

It would be an interesting experiment to take a quantum meter in to a movie theater - it has an output that sends the ta/reads to an external recorder, After the fact the film and the meter responses could be played side by side to see the impacts the different scenes have.
Bright idea!!
Offer a test service to the studios wherein all the members of the test screening audience would be holding cans connected to a multi feed computer to see which scenes work (in various edits) and which don't, to assure a box office hit. Think of all the money to be made.

Edit: Though I wonder if this would result in movies being dumbed down more than they already are? Would the creative spirit be lost as the accountants rub their hand together in fits of money making glee? Would we see hits like these?

Mimsey

HelluvaHoax! said:

I have heard wild stories of profound "enlightenment" of people who tripped on Ayahuaska hallucinogens ("DMT"). At the same time i have heard people tell truly nightmarish and profoundly terrifying experience while on those trips. Some of them warned others of the very real possibility that they could be driven into place so dark and horrifying that it could take them years to crawl their way back to anything resembling "normalcy"---and the admonition that one might NEVER make it back to sanity.

Click to expand...

I also have heard wild stories of people using Ayahuasca, amazingly positive life-changing experiences. Some of them warned strongly about who you are with when you doing this to avoid the horrifying experiences that you described. They had traveled to Peru where it's been used for hundreds of years (maybe thousands?) and were guided by someone with decades of experience, I believe a shaman if I recall correctly.

Here is some info from the abstract of a paper published in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS):

Chemical evidence for the use of multiple psychotropic plants in a 1,000-year-old ritual bundle from South America

Significance
Humans have a long history of using natural resources, especially plants, to induce nonordinary states of consciousness. Imbibing substances derived from plants have been linked to ancient and elaborate knowledge systems and rituals. While archaeological evidence of the consumption of psychotropics, such as alcohol or caffeine, dates back thousands of years, evidence of the use of other psychoactive substances has been more difficult to document. This article presents the results of chemical analyses of organic residues found in a 1,000-year-old ritual bundle recovered from the highland Andes. The analyses provide evidence of the use of multiple psychoactive plants associated with a sophisticated botanical knowledge system among ritual specialists (shamans) during pre-Columbian times.
Abstract
Over several millennia, various native plant species in South America have been used for their healing and psychoactive properties. Chemical analysis of archaeological artifacts provides an opportunity to study the use of psychoactive plants in the past and to better understand ancient botanical knowledge systems. Liquid chromatography tandem mass spectrometry (LC-MS/MS) was used to analyze organic residues from a ritual bundle, radiocarbon dated to approximately 1,000 C.E., recovered from archaeological excavations in a rock shelter located in the Lípez Altiplano of southwestern Bolivia. The site is located at an elevation of ∼3,900 m above sea level and contains evidence of intermittent human occupations during the last 4,000 years. Chemical traces of bufotenine, dimethyltryptamine, harmine, and cocaine, including its degradation product benzoylecgonine, were identified, suggesting that at least three plants containing these compounds were part of the shamanic paraphernalia dating back 1,000 years ago, the largest number of compounds recovered from a single artifact from this area of the world, to date. This is also a documented case of a ritual bundle containing both harmine and dimethyltryptamine, the two primary ingredients of ayahuasca. The presence of multiple plants that come from disparate and distant ecological areas in South America suggests that hallucinogenic plants moved across significant distances and that an intricate botanical knowledge was intrinsic to pre-Columbian ritual practices.

100 year anniversary of a book published in 1924
Early research into this curious topic


Book is available on Amazon ($0.96) and as a public domain PDF (search for it on google, if curious).

Book is well written and pretty interesting. I've only read the first 3-4 chapters, which I thought were intriguing,
just to get the main concepts he was describing and working with.

Was this one of the sources for some of Hubbard's entity ideas in 1952? Could have been. Book was around
in various circles during his early life. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

HelluvaHoax! said:

The entire point I am struggling to make here is that AUDITING (being audited or auditing oneself) is (if nothing else) just a creative exercise. Imagination. Simply imagining things (if done to a "discovery" of any kind) works miracles with ones energy level, mood and happiness. It does not have to be the discovery of anything within reality. It can be purely fictional. Here's a quick example---

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Many Scientologists will have "wins" during their auditing and feel better after a session for a number of reasons, including those you mentioned.

While some may have genuine discoveries that benefit them, I believe that's completely unnecessary to feel better after a session. I'm going to post an excerpt from a paper but first a definition of 'contextual effect':


Contextual effect
Contextual effects are changes in the clinical outcome that result from exposure to factors related to the context of the healthcare setting. These factors include patient-related aspects (e.g., treatment expectations), therapist-related factors (e.g., friendliness) [20], patient-therapist relationships [21], and intervention settings [22]. Contextual effects produce a treatment effect independent of the specific effects of the intervention and are synonymous with “placebo-related effects,” occurring even in the absence of the inert treatment [23]. For an in-depth exploration of the mechanisms underlying the contextual effects, refer to Enck et al. [24].


Placebo response and effect in randomized clinical trials: meta-research with focus on contextual effects

Abstract
Background: Contextual effects (i.e., placebo response) refer to all health changes resulting from administering an apparently inactive treatment. In a randomized clinical trial (RCT), the overall treatment effect (i.e., the post-treatment effect in the intervention group) can be regarded as the true effect of the intervention plus the impact of contextual effects. This meta-research was conducted to examine the average proportion of the overall treatment effect attributable to contextual effects in RCTs across clinical conditions and treatments and explore whether it varies with trial contextual factors.

Methods: Data was extracted from trials included in the main meta-analysis from the latest update of the Cochrane review on "Placebo interventions for all clinical conditions" (searched from 1966 to March 2008). Only RCTs reported in English having an experimental intervention group, a placebo comparator group, and a no-treatment control group were eligible.

Results: In total, 186 trials (16,655 patients) were included. On average, 54% (0.54, 95%CI 0.46 to 0.64) of the overall treatment effect was attributable to contextual effects. The contextual effects were higher for trials with blinded outcome assessor and concealed allocation. The contextual effects appeared to increase proportional to the placebo effect, lower mean age, and proportion of females.

Conclusion: Approximately half of the overall treatment effect in RCTs seems attributable to contextual effects rather than to the specific effect of treatments. As the study did not include all important contextual factors (e.g., patient-provider interaction), the true proportion of contextual effects could differ from the study's results. However, contextual effects should be considered when assessing treatment effects in clinical practice.

HelluvaHoax! said:

The entire point I am struggling to make here is that AUDITING (being audited or auditing oneself) is (if nothing else) just a creative exercise. Imagination. Simply imagining things (if done to a "discovery" of any kind) works miracles with ones energy level, mood and happiness. It does not have to be the discovery of anything within reality. It can be purely fictional. Here's a quick example---
. . .
I am quite sure that if I took an e-meter into a movie theater while i watched a movie masterpiece, I would get the identical blowdowns, floating needles and emotional highs as i did in Scientology auditing. It's exactly the same process.
. . .
It's simply a creative exercise. Physical exercise is also capable of elevating people's moods to inordinate heights as well.

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Bingo! Totally agree. HH is right on the money.

Let's say I go on an all day hike in Big Sur, one of the most beautiful spots on the planet, grab some
impressive photographs and experience the colors of a once-in-a-lifetime sunset . . . listen to wonderful
music on the drive home, stop to have one of my favorite burgers and fries, topped off by a cafe latte
and warm conversation with my hiking partner, recapping the wonders of the day . . . that's a euphoria
as good as any session. The world is such a beautiful and aesthetic place, if you've got the mind to
search it out. The result is as good -- and lasting -- as any session.

I've gone out with my same hiking partner once a month for the past 15 years on sojourns like I just described.
These are all "sessions" of sorts for the soul, no doubt about it.

ILove2Lurk said:

I've gone out with my same hiking partner once a month for the past 15 years on sojourns like I just described.
These are all "sessions" of sorts for the soul, no doubt about it.

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Even better is that it doesn't cost you $1000.00/hour nor do you get called in for a battery of sec checks if you miss one month.

ILove2Lurk said:

100 year anniversary of a book published in 1924
Early research into this curious topic

Thirty Years Among the Dead (book)​

Dr. Carl A. Wickland, (1861-1945) was a member of the Chicago Medical Society, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the chief psychiatrist at the National Psychopathic Institute of Chicago. Wickland specialized in cases of schizophrenia, paranoia, depression, addiction, manic-depression, criminal behavior and other phobias. After moving to Los Angeles in 1918, he founded the National Psychological Institute of Los Angeles with his wife Anna Wickland, who was a trance medium. Wickland treated many patients suffering from mental illness of all kinds, and after many years experience came to the conclusion that a number of patients he treated had 'attachments;' by that he meant that spiritual entities had attached themselves to unwitting mortals and influenced them (often) in the worst kind of way-leading them to alcoholism, madness, and occasionally murder.​

​

Wickland stated at the time; Spirit obsession is a fact - a perversion of a natural law - and is amply demonstrable. This has been proven hundreds of times by causing the supposed insanity or aberration to be temporarily transferred from the victim to a psychic sensitive who is trained for the purpose, and by this method ascertain the cause of the psychosis to be an ignorant or mischievous spirit, whose identity may frequently be verified. Having come to the 'spirit obsession' conclusion, Wickland and his wife set up a rescue circle, with Mrs. Wickland acting as the medium, and they set about communicating with lost souls who had passed away and were unaware of their post physical death condition and often in denial due to dogmatic religious and equally dogmatic atheist beliefs.​

​

In the introduction of the book the author writes, The change called death, the word is a misnomer-universally regarded with gloomy fear, occurs so naturally and simply that the greater number, after passing out of the physical are not aware that the transition has been made, and having no knowledge of a spiritual life they are totally unconscious of having passed into another state of being. Deprived of their physical sense organs, they are shut out from the physical light, and lacking, a mental perception of the high purpose of existence, these individuals are spiritually blind and find themselves in a twilight condition-the outer darkness mentioned in the Bible - and linger in the realm known as the Earth sphere.​

Source: Amazon​

Book is available on Amazon ($0.96) and as a public domain PDF (search for it on google, if curious).

Book is well written and pretty interesting. I've only read the first 3-4 chapters, which I thought were intriguing,
just to get the main concepts he was describing and working with.

Was this one of the sources for some of Hubbard's entity ideas in 1952? Could have been. Book was around
in various circles during his early life. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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This book, Thirty Years Among the Dead, was on the bookshelf in the Div 6 area of my local mission back in 75. That was before the great purge of lechers who rode free on the back of Ron's books in the Orgs. I think I remember reading it then. Will cough up the buck to read it again from Amazon.

I was fascinated with the book The Unquiet Dead. Read it 3 times. Bells and whistles went off. But, when you are groomed in Scientology, you know that NOTHING can effect you but YOU, yourself. Yup, no such things as others causing you to feel anything. You do it to you. That was a hard conviction to drop while tossing money away in Flag reviews while fighting for the right to control my brain.

Teenage girls or so snotty when put onto power posts on staff. Especially MAA's. Any complaint that something is making you feel like you're going into epileptic seizures, or has latched onto your temples painfully, is going to get you overt writeups. The early 80s were my haunted era. First active somatics ever. I liked to draw and would submit pictures of current case situations, with criminals attached on the right of me, revivified in electrocution. On the left were other beings flashing what caused their demise. I actually believed none of it, as we'd been groomed to believe we are the only cause for anything. But with the drawings left for the D of P, was a notation. " I don't believe a word of this as I write....but, my job is to observe and report. This is my report of the current situation"..

Amazingly INT Rundown was given with extreme caution about running E/S. It was kept light to first F/Ns and no digging at all. Recalls only. The pressure bearing down on my pituitary, from above, like an inverted cone subsided. No more seizures. I was so glad not to be handed over to some snarky teenagers.

My mother has a demon that takes over her whenever she is mad at me. Lol. It's this caustic cluster of identities she has gone to war with, that I remind her of. She will be 93 and is now regretting we are not friends. She's realizing I don't really have the traits she is fighting against. I was just a screen she projected upon. I think volatile energies from thwarted purposes remain in the aura.

The developer of Aspectics used a goal chain technique for ridding the ghosts that hang around. You address them, asking, what they are trying to achieve regarding yourself. Given the answer, you then ask, ' if this goal should be completely achieved fully and successfully, what would your next 'higher' goal be?" He would have you ask the identity or ghost, to envision as vividly as they can, their present want or goal to being achieved. This is a reason they're stuck and haven't progressed on. There may be some loyalty to a purpose, a score to even, or a fear of having nothing to do, I guess. The goal chain process works very fast but there is nothing on handling ghosts which hold the other ones tied.

There was this one time I was shopping the Miracle Mile in Coral Gables, home of the Mighty Miami Org. It was immediately after another INT Rundown. I'd gotten submerged among a separating cluster of confused beings.....when a lady pushing a 3 month old baby, came to the shop window where I stood. I never felt such flurry of confusion, and we were all having the same flu symptoms as well.. Up to that time, it was surreal that spirits pick up babies already born. I mean, you gotta know somebody's already there. But these other cats simply didn't care. Recently awoke from the dead or 'not being', they made their move arching 30 inches towards.


Robert Monroe is much appreciated for answering the questions most Scientologists had on their minds since first getting into the topic. What happens when beings fight for a position of control. It can be cooperative or ugly?

..

mimsey borogrove said:

I did do 2 or 3 years on OT 7 solo nots, and some of the BTs were very real. Hubbard does say on the NOTs materials to not get in conversations with them, but just stick to the auditing procedure.

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I think that's one of the rare exceptions where Hubbard's policy was actually brilliantly helpful and correct!

That's why i strictly followed his "never discuss your case with anyone" policy which required that I stop getting auditing and leave scientology. Because every time i was taken in session at Flag, my auditors kept trying to force me to talk about my case.

..


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HelluvaHoax! said:

.




I think that OT 7 fully qualifies as a psychedelic experience induced by the hallucinogenic
agent DMT (Delusional Miracle Therapy).

I am no expert on the mechanics of how exactly all people are susceptible to being seduced into BELIEVING IN myths, whether authored by others or themselves).

I will say this about Scientology's OT III thru OT VII, however. Stalking BTs and trying to figure out their creatively conniving methods of cratering your life is an exercise that DOES produce wins. The identical wins that anyone engaged with ANY creative pursuit knows well. I'd suggest, in essence, it can be broken down into a three step process:

THE EXPLORATION

THE DISCOVERY

THE EUPHORIA
​

Whether it's writing fiction, designing a product, remodeling a room, composing a song, engineering a pharmacological cure, choreographing a musical, cooking delicious meals, raising children, establishing a career, starting a business---or any other of the infinite number of simple and complex human pursuits that require creativity--one must begin by exploring the unknown. And (if successful) end with the jubilant discovery of the journey's next step. It might be as simple as deciding what color to paint a room.

The entire point I am struggling to make here is that AUDITING (being audited or auditing oneself) is (if nothing else) just a creative exercise. Imagination. Simply imagining things (if done to a "discovery" of any kind) works miracles with ones energy level, mood and happiness. It does not have to be the discovery of anything within reality. It can be purely fictional. Here's a quick example---

TAKE A SECOND: Think of one of your favorite and most beloved movie scenes or songs. Whoever CREATED that had just as powerful euphoria, emotion or laughter as you did when they were sitting alone in a room imagining that and writing it down.

That's my experience with auditing the phenomena of "BTs".

I have no opinion on whether there are BTs or not.

I am quite sure that if I took an e-meter into a movie theater while i watched a movie masterpiece, I would get the identical blowdowns, floating needles and emotional highs as i did in Scientology auditing. It's exactly the same process.

I am kind of guessing that not everyone who has been in Scientology (or still in) knows that they themselves are empowering the "wins" that derive from Hubbard's supposedly magical auditing commands. It's simply a creative exercise. Physical exercise is also capable of elevating people's moods to inordinate heights as well.


...

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" I am quite sure that if I took an e-meter into a movie theater while i watched a movie masterpiece, I would get the identical blowdowns, floating needles and emotional highs as i did in Scientology auditing. It's exactly the same process. "

I saw Dune 2 tonight, Saturday, and I was very disappointed - the AMC theater left the overhead lights on dim through the whole movie. It destroys the illusion when you are frequently reminded you're in a theater. Other than that, I liked the movie, though I wonder why more Fremen didn't side with Chani.

Mimsey