Looking for someone... Could you all just chill?

Karakorum

Ron is the source that will lead you to grief
PirateAndBum said:
Thanks very much for that post. So you're saying he was definitely not on the list for consideration as "Mankind's Greatest Friend" ?
I can see why you ask .... I may need to work on my lack of straight speak!

:D
What about great humanitarian then? ;P
 

onceuponatime

Well-known member
.

Yeah it's hard to pick one particular mindset and belief that Hubbard might have held, mainly because it's just as likely (if not more) that he held ALL OF THE FOLLOWING BELIEFS simultaneously:

HUBBARD'S FERVENT BELIEFS:
1. The tech works!​
2. The tech doesn't work!​
3. I am doing all this for mankind!​
4. I am doing all this for myself, L. Ron Hubbard!​
5. Clear & OT states/powers are real!​
6. Clear & OT states/powers are not real!​
7. All this is to save the universe!​
8. All this is to save money in hidden Swiss Bank Accounts!​
9. I believe in all of the above!​
10. I believe in none of the above!​
11. I believe in some of the above!​
12. I never had any beliefs in the first place.​
13. I do sometimes have beliefs if they can be used momentarily as gimmicks to get what I want by defrauding others and/or myself.​
.
Think big. Where you thought of one mental illness before think of one hundred.

I think that's how that quote is supposed to go?
 

onceuponatime

Well-known member
In my opinion he sealed his own and the fate of Scientology in 1972. Read this: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/roos/roos-story.html#msh-explains


"One day, when all the XII's were on leave, except myself, he sent a Messenger down, stating he wanted the folders. After refusal by myself (C/S hat) he became "Commodore" and ordered the folders up, sending some hefty guys down to just get them (a file cabinet full!). [originally "cabinet file"; transposition indicated in handwriting]

They were just taken and that was that.

A few days later I was called up to his Office and upon entry was hit, kicked screamed and shouted at. (Even the Aides were not in sight, hiding as he was really mad!)

He just blew his stack on finding the references to the "discreditable" reads and the contents of some of the personal folders.

He shouted that he had never had such reads and screamed at me to check this with the auditor, MSH, who was also in the room.

She said with a straight face, "No, Sir, you never had such reads". This while there were stacks of folders lying right there full of them. (There is another read which, in writing, closely resembles the reads concerned, a read which is also of prevalence in Goals type auditing. As her handwriting is small and as he needs glasses, it was implied that it was the 2nd type read, an entirely "acceptable" item, which had been written down. This was not what several XII's, including I, with good eyes had seen, and even, had there been a mistake, it would not have been hundreds of them. As said, what FESer cares about such things, merely items to verify/correct/handle. They certainly attached no special significance to this.)

He then screamed that I and the other XII's had "of course talked and laughed about it" among ourselves and had "undoubtedly told this all over the ship".

Completely maniacal reactions, especially toward the best and most experienced C/Ses/Auditors in the world who had seen and done just about everything.

However, also typical MW/H reactions, mere pc dramatizations (pc's should not read their own folders).

He had also looked at tons of out lists, wrong items, unhandled drugs, as well as "discreditable" data (like is found in any pc folder), none of it of any significance to FESers, C/Ses, or auditors, except as items in need of handling, but of lots of significance to pc's, especially when wrongly, incompletely or not handled at all. (This pc had certainly never been handled. His altitude, apart from the lack of know how in earlier tech days, alone prevented any auditor to just go in there and even put his ruds in. An auditor he had selected once certainly never did. She caved in and I had to, as Examiner, handle that session at that time. This class VIII had been known as a weak auditor, yet he had chosen that individual, while he had had some super XII's available. It is not hard to guess who controlled the session!!)

There were, in the Solo folders, a lot of things personal to him. But who cared! He read it (data most probably long since forgotten as having been written down), got stirred up with the idea of "others knowing about it", etc.

Pc's should not read their own folders.
He was very angry and I confronted him, after which he said "What are you looking at me for!" When I said, "Well, Sir, seeing you trained me on TR's and how to run them, you could n't now expect me to break up". (Which was true.) He then quietened down and ordered me to cabin arrest.

The other XII's had not been around so I caught the brunt of all of this alone. His hitting had n't bothered me, he was an old man.

What I really minded was MSH's denying of having seen and written down these reads, thereby giving him umpty wrong items by denying reads which did occur and indicating reads which did n't. This with lists, many of which were 100's of pages long, and more, so already wrong enough without needing further inval of their meter reads!

Later that evening MSH came down to my cabin, kept coming in and out with different folders of his, showing the reads clear as day, and then "explaining" to me that these reads had been "old time F/N reactions" (see page 10, last para) and that I, as old timer and XII "should have known that".

My answer was that this might all be true but that I, as C/S, could not just surmise things and they had to be verified and handled, and the more she talked the more stubborn I became.

As Diana Hubbard also came to shout at me "I hate you", "I hate you", "I hate you", it was obvious that things would not become too easy.

David Mayo, Class X Trainee at the time, and not involved in the Project, was in the cabin next to mine and witnessed the MSH "explanations".

LRH somehow refused the truth of the folders, and my stubborness [sic] clinched the matter.

"Station Termination", my days were numbered.

It was interesting to see how many people suddenly "discovered" what an SP I had always been. Fallen, after years at the top, it did not take the undertakers long to dig the grave.

A slight goof by Quentin (then C/S) and myself a few days later (running a GF (technically a correct action!) on a wrongly handled experimental XDN pc) got me comm-eved and declared, etc. The C/S was not mentioned.
However, knowing what was in the folders, I did not give up the action planned and left the ship (with approval!) to get the Klingvalls and bring them back to complete the programme. I returned to Flag, without even knowing where it was, I spotted Flag's location in Oporto and on the dock got the Expulsion, signed by Norman Starkey. And that was that! But there still was an 8 feet stack of folderds [sec] which needed handling!

I left Portugal with $100 in my pocket, subsequently did well in the "wog" world, but had a very rough time with self struggle, like, "Is he senior to Truth?", "Does he really stand above the requirements of the Tech?", etc. Yet, I would always come back to the same conclusion that my decision would be the same again, regardless of "losing the Upper Levels, etc." (In fact, I lost nothing, as neither NOTS, nor OT 8 contained any mysteries for me, and I had already virtually completed OT 8 years before, as I discovered when getting the contents of what is known today as OT 8 at David Mayo's. It would have been quite an inval of the tech and my own ability, as well as a waste if, even having reached the very top of training, knowingness and know how, I still would not have been able to help myself.)

THE FOLDERS: What happened to them?

When David Mayo came to salvage LRH years later....David never saw these folders. The tech of NOTS was developed, great, but the 8 feet stack of tens of thousands of pages of GROSS OUT TECH was never seen by David or anybody else again! NOBODY SAW THESE FOLDERS AGAIN. This is what David told me the 1st night I saw him again in Santa Barbara in 1983.

Yet I know what is in all of these folders and what he lived and worked over the top of.

It sure was n't that David could n't have run the XII programme, as he could have, it was that he just was n't given access to these folders (this latter statement is my opinion only, but I can see no other explanation).

One ought to realise the potential power of only one wrongly handled item like an engram or a list, let alone OUT Upper Level Solo Lists and a continuance of never looked at and handled out ruds!"
Thanks, I'd read his story before but it's been a while.

Confirms my own theories, he did become a believer in his own scam and he was suffering from mental illness.
 

Veda

Well-known member
Thanks, I'd read his story before but it's been a while.

Confirms my own theories, he did become a believer in his own scam and he was suffering from mental illness.
The message from the Ottos Roos' write up is not that Hubbard was mentally ill. Quite the contrary. The message is that Hubbard accumulated "by passed charge" doing research to free Mankind, thus is a kind of hero.

The sensitive topic of the ego maniacal Hubbard circa 1938, the power crazed Hubbard of 1946/47, the reporting-his-wife-to-the-FBI-as-a-communist-sympathizer Hubbard of 1951, the-bizarre-letters-to-the-FBI writing nuclear physicist/"the Russians want me to work for them if the IRS keeps after me"/"Always attack"/"Ruin utterly" Hubbard of 1955, the Security Check creating/bronze bust of himself commissioning Hubbard of 1961... Well, you get the idea.

Hubbard really didn't change.

The "unhanded e-meter reads" explanation doesn't cut it.
 

onceuponatime

Well-known member
The message from the Ottos Roos' write up is not that Hubbard was mentally ill. Quite the contrary. The message is that Hubbard accumulated "by passed charge" doing research to free Mankind, thus is a kind of hero.

The sensitive topic of the ego maniacal Hubbard circa 1938, the power crazed Hubbard of 1946/47, the reporting-his-wife-to-the-FBI-as-a-communist-sympathizer Hubbard of 1951, the-bizarre-letters-to-the-FBI writing nuclear physicist/"the Russians want me to work for them if the IRS keeps after me"/"Always attack"/"Ruin utterly" Hubbard of 1955, the Security Check creating/bronze bust of himself commissioning Hubbard of 1961... Well, you get the idea.

Hubbard really didn't change.

The "unhanded e-meter reads" explanation doesn't cut it.
Well he was, and remained, a true believer. I took a different message from his story.

Unhandled meter reads definitely doesn't cut it.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Well-known member
Well he was, and remained, a true believer.
He definitely was. I had the luck to know him briefly in the mid-80s when we were both on lines at the East Grinstead AAC, and he told me he was the first ever Class XII (true), and when I asked him how he got to be one, he said "tens of thousands of hours of auditing every process there was." He also said that he had once successfully audited a girl for hay fever and cured her of it.

In a letter of response to someone who wrote in IVy (the Independents' magazine in the 1990s) that all claims that Scientologists made about paranormal abilities were so much hokum, he was quite insistent that in the early days of Scn, people were achieving such paranormal abilities (though I don't recall his being specific about what they were) and doing so consistently. I wasn't particularly interested because developing such abilities wasn't my reason for being interested in the subject.

I also remember that after he was declared and was presented with the usual freeloader's bill, he took it very seriously and managed to pay it off through business dealings; he went on to make some serious money in the business world.

He was quite a character but there were other people I met in Scn whom I felt more aligned to from a spiritual point of view, such as Leonard Dunn (anyone remember him?).
 
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The_Fixer

Bent in all sorts of ways..
True ... I will hide behind mine forever (I don't want normal people knowing I was once involved in the cult of con).


:D
I admit it only to a select few nowadays.

I never said anything before.

Still feel pretty silly for ever getting myself caught up in it.

These days though, I see it as a part of who I've become all mistakes and misdeeds included. Learned to live with it.

But like most people, they don't have to know everything about me either.
 

Bob Hinson

Active member
It would appear that many of you did not understand what his intentions were. Have you looked around today? Are you happy with what's going on?

FYI, if Ben Franklin were around today he'd be on Prozac and in a straight jacket and in a mental institution. This is a war folks, and has been 4 a long time.

To the fellow that was looking for proof/evidence about OT's. Perhaps you should look around and ask yourself, are my walls solid?
While I can't provide you physical proof/evidence I will tell you a few personal stories so that you know that some have accomplished these things.

You!!, of course, could attribute these things to circumstances. Ever heard of the term Solid Citizen? I believe that applies to you and that you R probably of the mindset that the walls that you are confined within are solid. Are you familiar with the words; atoms, protons, neutrons, space in time? Take out a piece of paper and a writing instrument, Make 2 marks, is there a distance between them? How long does it take you to go from point A to point B? What is the distance between the 2 marks? What is the fastest speed of travel? These are questions that you must answer for yourself. Here's a clue; the fastest speed is thought. If you believe that you are MEST, then you are.

So here are some stories for your personal edification.

In the early 80s my oldest daughter was on the cheer leading squad at her high school. One day she came to me and asked if I knew any cheers. I replied no, but mother's cousin, who was the High school's mascot in late 60's might know some. The wife and I were married in 71 and had no contact with her cousin since then, and had no idea where he was. He is an actor and been in movies you might have seen. Mysteriously, out of the blue we received a postcard from him 2 days later. We were in Portland, and he was in NY. No previous contact from him 4 over 15 years.

My daughter sat with me in the living room one day, me in my chair and her on the couch. At the time we had 2 cats, one was in her lap. She asked me how I could always get the cats to do what I wanted, I told her that animals don't speak but think in pictures - you mock up a picture and put it in the animals space- so i did my thing; you know, those abilities OT's don;t have. Breena, the cat, abruptly got up from my daughter's lap and came over and got on my lap. I chuckled, and replied; there's your answer.

In the early 80's, we were living in Portland, OR and we had a swimming pool. It was winter time and extremely cold. I even had to put short logs in the pool to keep it from freezing. The house had 2 stories. I was on the top floor. I heard a voice where there was none. My 3 yr old son, who was fully clad in winter garb, with a down jacket on had decided to take a ride on the pool sweep and fell in the pool. I ran down the steps only to find him lying at the bottom of the pool drowning. As much as I didn't want to, (oh shite) I jumped in and pulled him out. I spent an hour in the shower while my son spent an hour in a warm bath thawing out.

My wife had an IUD (contraceptive device) early in our marriage before children. After 2 years you were suppose to have it removed and replaced with a new one. She went to her doctor to have it removed. The device would not come out. The doctor told her it had penetrated the uterus wall and would have to be surgically removed. My response was BS! She went in a week later for another attempt and was told the IUD mysteriously detached itself so she wouldn't require surgery

My wife's uncle was told that he needed knee surgery, which he told me about. He went back to his doctor shortly thereafter and the doctor was dumbfounded and told my wife's uncle that he didn't require surgery after all. .

In the early 90's my business partner called me very distraught, telling me we needed to meet and talk. His name was Mark M. He informed me that his doctor had told him that his prostate was the size of a lemon and that he was in trouble, and that his only option was surgery. Mark, knowing of my abilities, asked me for my help. I'm not going to tell you what I said to Mark, I can only tell you that he went back to the doctor a week later and was informed that his prostate was now normal.

So, think what you might. there is no such thing as an OT, and we are all the effect of life. I could tell you many other stories at this point that would be of no consequence, e.g. the ability to be invisible to others. Here's one other story.

I was once on the Mezzanine at Flag, sitting on a couch waiting for some friends. We were going out for the evening. As I sat there, they walked by me many times, and I finally appeared and told them I was just sitting on the couch, and they swore they couldn't see me.

I suppose this is all coincidence and we have no ability to control our environment? You make the determination. As I said before, Ron said; what is real to you is what you experience to be true.

I hope this will give some of you some answers. You all have the ability to be what you really are. I realize that many of you feel that you have been deceived, but I assure you that was never the intention.
 

Harold#1

A VERY STABLE SUPER GENIUS!!
It would appear that many of you did not understand what his intentions were. Have you looked around today? Are you happy with what's going on?

FYI, if Ben Franklin were around today he'd be on Prozac and in a straight jacket and in a mental institution. This is a war folks, and has been 4 a long time.
Why would Ben be on Prozac?
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
@Karakorum you need to take @HelluvaHoax! off of
"ignore" and defend your honor one of these days. :whistle:


~ Onegin and Lenski duel 1899 ~
:D

.

But, didn't he already courageously defend his honor by
Declaring & Disconnecting from the "SP Troll" known as HelluvaHoax? LOL​


.
 
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The_Fixer

Bent in all sorts of ways..

It happens to me a bit. Even before Scn involvement.

I remember once seeing in my head at work the footage of the Challenger exploding after take off. I went home and watched the live telecast of the launch and saw it explode exactly as I saw it. I just stood there with my jaw dropped, not just for the tragedy of it either. That was perhaps the most memorable one for me.

What usually happens for me though is that I will think of someone or something and within the next few days it will come up in front of me, even if I haven't seen the person for a long time.

I'm not even going to attempt to explain it, other than it ain't scientology related at all.

I only ever had one 1 hour auditing session and barely completed the HQS course before I walked away.

My missus can do even stranger things, which I won't be going into here.

Lots of strange and unusual things go on in this world that seem to defy explanation, both good and bad. I really think it is a stretch to peg it onto scientology. If you are a scientologist, you will attach it to the tech working (or whatever) and if not, something else.

The mind abhors a vacuum, and will normally attempt to fill in the gaps when there is no obvious answer.

EDIT to add: The above video explains a little bit about the mind/vacuum thing. Whilst that is a legal story, it works in all sorts of other ways too.
 
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ILove2Lurk

AI Chatbot
But, didn't he already defend his honor by Declaring & Disconnecting . . . .
Hardly. There's been some oblique call-outs and cat-calls at a distance, but that's nothing like
two formidable heavyweights, both with one-punch knockout power, entering the octagon or
ring to face off "mano a mano" to settle their differences. This has not happened yet, AFAIK.
:LOL:
We know how this ended.

 

Karakorum

Ron is the source that will lead you to grief
@Karakorum you need to take @HelluvaHoax! off of
"ignore" and defend your honor one of these days. :whistle:


~ Onegin and Lenski duel 1899 ~
:D
Take him off the ignore list without an official apology letter and him completing an amends project? Who do you think I am? ;)

I don't want to go back to this thing and stir the pot, we've all been through it before more than once. Suffice to say that of all the weird, unfriendly and sometimes downright verbally abusive people who visited the forums, there's only one single person I keep on the ignore list. He can argue with the stop sign all he wants.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation.
It would appear that many of you did not understand what his intentions were. Have you looked around today? Are you happy with what's going on?

FYI, if Ben Franklin were around today he'd be on Prozac and in a straight jacket and in a mental institution. This is a war folks, and has been 4 a long time.

To the fellow that was looking for proof/evidence about OT's. Perhaps you should look around and ask yourself, are my walls solid?
While I can't provide you physical proof/evidence I will tell you a few personal stories so that you know that some have accomplished these things.

You!!, of course, could attribute these things to circumstances. Ever heard of the term Solid Citizen? I believe that applies to you and that you R probably of the mindset that the walls that you are confined within are solid. Are you familiar with the words; atoms, protons, neutrons, space in time? Take out a piece of paper and a writing instrument, Make 2 marks, is there a distance between them? How long does it take you to go from point A to point B? What is the distance between the 2 marks? What is the fastest speed of travel? These are questions that you must answer for yourself. Here's a clue; the fastest speed is thought. If you believe that you are MEST, then you are.

So here are some stories for your personal edification.

In the early 80s my oldest daughter was on the cheer leading squad at her high school. One day she came to me and asked if I knew any cheers. I replied no, but mother's cousin, who was the High school's mascot in late 60's might know some. The wife and I were married in 71 and had no contact with her cousin since then, and had no idea where he was. He is an actor and been in movies you might have seen. Mysteriously, out of the blue we received a postcard from him 2 days later. We were in Portland, and he was in NY. No previous contact from him 4 over 15 years.

My daughter sat with me in the living room one day, me in my chair and her on the couch. At the time we had 2 cats, one was in her lap. She asked me how I could always get the cats to do what I wanted, I told her that animals don't speak but think in pictures - you mock up a picture and put it in the animals space- so i did my thing; you know, those abilities OT's don;t have. Breena, the cat, abruptly got up from my daughter's lap and came over and got on my lap. I chuckled, and replied; there's your answer.

In the early 80's, we were living in Portland, OR and we had a swimming pool. It was winter time and extremely cold. I even had to put short logs in the pool to keep it from freezing. The house had 2 stories. I was on the top floor. I heard a voice where there was none. My 3 yr old son, who was fully clad in winter garb, with a down jacket on had decided to take a ride on the pool sweep and fell in the pool. I ran down the steps only to find him lying at the bottom of the pool drowning. As much as I didn't want to, (oh shite) I jumped in and pulled him out. I spent an hour in the shower while my son spent an hour in a warm bath thawing out.

My wife had an IUD (contraceptive device) early in our marriage before children. After 2 years you were suppose to have it removed and replaced with a new one. She went to her doctor to have it removed. The device would not come out. The doctor told her it had penetrated the uterus wall and would have to be surgically removed. My response was BS! She went in a week later for another attempt and was told the IUD mysteriously detached itself so she wouldn't require surgery

My wife's uncle was told that he needed knee surgery, which he told me about. He went back to his doctor shortly thereafter and the doctor was dumbfounded and told my wife's uncle that he didn't require surgery after all. .

In the early 90's my business partner called me very distraught, telling me we needed to meet and talk. His name was Mark M. He informed me that his doctor had told him that his prostate was the size of a lemon and that he was in trouble, and that his only option was surgery. Mark, knowing of my abilities, asked me for my help. I'm not going to tell you what I said to Mark, I can only tell you that he went back to the doctor a week later and was informed that his prostate was now normal.

So, think what you might. there is no such thing as an OT, and we are all the effect of life. I could tell you many other stories at this point that would be of no consequence, e.g. the ability to be invisible to others. Here's one other story.

I was once on the Mezzanine at Flag, sitting on a couch waiting for some friends. We were going out for the evening. As I sat there, they walked by me many times, and I finally appeared and told them I was just sitting on the couch, and they swore they couldn't see me.

I suppose this is all coincidence and we have no ability to control our environment? You make the determination. As I said before, Ron said; what is real to you is what you experience to be true.

I hope this will give some of you some answers. You all have the ability to be what you really are. I realize that many of you feel that you have been deceived, but I assure you that was never the intention.


Yeah, but but but but but ... can you get red traffic lights to change to green within (say) 3 or so minutes?



:hmm:
 

Karakorum

Ron is the source that will lead you to grief
This is a war folks, and has been 4 a long time.
Yeah I know, Davey is trying to wage war on all ex-members and all critics and pretty much on everyone in this sector in the galaxy. He he will lose sooner or later, though I have no idea what Ben Franklin has to do with it.
I would hope that Franklin, if he lived today, would have enough situational awareness to stay away from the CoS. ;)

One day she came to me and asked if I knew any cheers. I replied no, but mother's cousin, who was the High school's mascot in late 60's might know some. The wife and I were married in 71 and had no contact with her cousin since then, and had no idea where he was. He is an actor and been in movies you might have seen. Mysteriously, out of the blue we received a postcard from him 2 days later.
Wow, did he write down the cheers on the postcard? If yes, then that is somewhat impressive. If it was just a "hi, how are you?" postcard then not so much. Just my 0.02$.

I'm still waiting to see if clears will regain perfect eyesight and total recall. If that starts to happen, I'll be the first one to apply to redo the whole process.
I was once on the Mezzanine at Flag, sitting on a couch waiting for some friends. We were going out for the evening. As I sat there, they walked by me many times, and I finally appeared and told them I was just sitting on the couch, and they swore they couldn't see me.
Were they perhaps sleep-deprived SO members? I can confirm that long term sleep deprivation really impacts one's focus, awareness and ability to spot details in a significant way.

Example: There was a guy who one day instead of going to his post at FOLO WUS, went to the old ASI office and was mightily dazes and confused by what he found. Last time he held a post with ASI was many years before this incident, back when ASI was in their old office in Cedars.

That's how confused he was after prolonged and intense period of sleep deprivation.

(...) she went in a week later for another attempt and was told the IUD mysteriously detached itself so she wouldn't require surgery
I think I can chalk this one off as simple medical incompetence.
I've had similar experiences with some doctors and some veterinarians. You come the first time and the doc says X needs to be done. But you come the second time for the actual thing, then the new doc looks at it and clearly explains why X is not necessary and how the previous doc messed up big time.
 
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