Why so many spin offs of Hubbard's work?

Veda

Well-known member
sorry, but i think the premise of this gives Hubbard and Scientology too much credit.
Perhaps so. Throwing comments into the mix to shake things up a little.

They were but one point in the counter-culture milieu of the 50s-70s, and specifically the human potential movement, a complex morass of influences and cross-connections that form a web like one of those crazy charts that conspiracy theorists create.
It was an interesting period.

though Hubbard had a knack both for garnering inordinate attention and publicity, and in posing himself as the 'source' of everything even though he heavily plagiarized earlier sources and took credit for the work of those around him. it seems to me that ex-members are people who bought into that at the time, reinforced by policies like those against 'other practices' that might have caused them to start to find out how un-original the concepts and practices really were, and who sometimes are still partly under the thrall of the illusion.

Scientology itself could be said to be an offshoot of Aleister Crowley's work (Thelema) -- and some new religion scholars peg it as just that, alongside Anton LaVey's CofS (Church of Satan). that might seem like an inadequate way to portray it -- but so is positioning Scientology as the source of anything remotely similar that happened after the early 50s.

lots of people did Dianetics and Scientology, which were kind of the 'in' thing to check out for a while, and other things as well before and after, and then went on to do their own thing. like, i've seen accounts that a lot of people at the time had read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance, Siddhartha, and other period classics before getting into Scientology, and even joining partly inspired by those works. as i see it, it's a chicken-and-egg problem in at least 3 dimensions, not easily simplified.
 

Veda

Well-known member
we might want to try to make some sort of distinctiong between independents/freezone, and spinoffs or offshoots.

there were some of both from the very beginning, but from what i can tell of the history the indie/FZ movements really took off in the 80s as Hubbard receded from view and Scientology experienced purges and schisms, and then 'source' finally died to be replaced by someone unsatisfactory to loyalists, orthodoxists and just those who held a more idealized view of the 'subject'. i don't know how much it had to do with BBS and the internet or whether it just happened to coincide with the rise of those technologies, though they certainly allowed scattered individuals and small groups to communicate more readily.

a lot of major figures who left in the 60s and 70s and into the early 80s started their own practices or groups, perhaps just because the time was more ripe for that than the 50s. some were takeoffs or their own take on Dianetics and Scientology, with names like Dianology obviously reflecting that, and others could be said to have gone different directions less influenced by Hubbard's 'work', like the Berners' Enlightenment Intensive that took a more Eastern influenced path incorporating meditation and yoga along with more collaborative dyad (equal pair, rather than auditor/PC) work.
One who went the Yoga route was former staff auditor, and old OT 7, Franklin Jones:

From the book, The Knee of Listening.

The 1971 edition, in chapter 12: The search for release from the mind: Scientology, discusses Scientology at length.

If you search for the book you'll probably only see a list of editions beginning with 1972, or 1973, which briefly mention Scientology, and later editions which omit any mention of Scientology.


________________________________________Begin quote__________________________________________​


Julio Delatorre, an old friend from my days at Stanford, came to dinner. He was animatedly involved in an organization called Scientology, which was headed and exclusively developed by a man named L. Ron Hubbard.

After I had worn out the conversation about my years of yoga and my experiences in India, my friend became more enthusiastically involved in describing his experiences in Scientology. I began instead to listen to him.

Scientology made use of a peculiar technique called "auditing." A trained person sat with you and, by careful use of a pattern of direct questioning, sought to remove the force which certain key experiences in your past had on your daily life. My friend had experienced great benefits from this method, and he had been led to re-experience his birth, the violence of which he felt had determined a kind of nervous and aloof quality in him all his life. Now he felt particularly "cleared" of the force of that experience and all kind of other reactions that he had retained as unconscious controls on his behavior.

Scientology sought by these means to relieve a person from the machinery of memory and unconscious reactivity so that he could eventually attain a state called "clear." In the state of "clear" the reactive or unconscious mind was supposed to be entirely eliminated as a force...


___________________________________________Temporary end of quote__________________________________________

This is where the "beezone.com" quote ends due to copyright limitations. If I recall correctly, Jones wrote some positive things about the lower grades, and then went on to discuss the Clearing and OT levels:

_________________________________________Quote continued____________________________________________​


But when I actually performed the Clearing and O.T. levels I found that they continued to deal only with the content of the mind. And that content was continually identified with the peculiar cosmic politics favored by Ron Hubbard. Thus I felt that these levels never dealt with the fundamental problem of the mind itself, prior to any content. In fact. they only led people deeper and deeper into a fanciful, paranoiac dilemma in which they were indoctrinated into the mentality of a cosmic political holocaust.

The people with whom I worked were chronically seeking release and "exteriorization" from the contents of the mind and from the physical body. This was itself a motivation out of fear and very little wisdom. To be sure, the evidence of exteriorization is conclusive, as it appears in works such as those of Jung. But nowhere in spiritual literature is it offered as the goal of life. Neither is it declared to be a necessary event in every case, prior to perfect knowledge.

In Scientology, however, exteriorization is the object of constant seeking. It is the sign of a period in cosmic history when spiritual beings had great powers and mobile freedom in the spiritual universe. Thus, it is pursued quite apart from any kind of higher wisdom. Exteriorization and various powers are sought for their own sake. Even the phenomenon supposed to be attained at "O.T. 8," the highest stage of Scientology auditing at present, is called "total power."

I had taken up Scientology for reasons of my own and allowed myself to discover in it parallels to my own motives and experience. Thus, I had failed to recognize the precise nature of the study itself. It was only on the upper levels, when the activity of auditing had degenerated into exercises of pure nonsense, that I realized what I had in fact led myself into.

While I was busy doing the O. T. levels I dropped all my resistance to the internal operation of Shakti and began to recover my earlier state of awareness. The phenomena of exteriorization was not unfamiliar to me, but its importance was quite different from that in which it was conceived in Scientology. For me, it was only one of the possible phenomena encountered in the growth of real consciousness. I attached no necessity or radical importance to it, nor to any other kind of "power."

I saw that Scientology was actually a political entity created along the lines of a fanciful interpretation of history. Its goals were political, not spiritual. Thus, its leading concern was power, not wisdom or realization.


____________________________________________End of quote__________________________________________

Above is a pretty good chunk of the orignal chapter.

Jones gradually descended into abusive cult leader mode over a few years.

Jones left behind a small and fiercely dedicated personality cult that protects his image. They seem to have purged this chapter from the Internet.

After Scientology, Jones went from being a good natured "God man," to be a bad tempered, sex crazed, carnival sideshow "God man."




If someone has a (paper) copy of the orignal book, that is probably the only way to ensure that the content is complete and unedited.

Interesting observations. Too bad he went nuts.

Oh well.



Maher Baba, an earlier God man, was more fun at parties.





 

Zertel

Well-known member
One who went the Yoga route was former staff auditor, and old OT 7, Franklin Jones:

From the book, The Knee of Listening.

The 1971 edition, in chapter 12: The search for release from the mind: Scientology, discusses Scientology at length.

If you search for the book you'll probably only see a list of editions beginning with 1972, or 1973, which briefly mention Scientology, and later editions which omit any mention of Scientology.


________________________________________Begin quote__________________________________________​


Julio Delatorre, an old friend from my days at Stanford, came to dinner. He was animatedly involved in an organization called Scientology, which was headed and exclusively developed by a man named L. Ron Hubbard.

After I had worn out the conversation about my years of yoga and my experiences in India, my friend became more enthusiastically involved in describing his experiences in Scientology. I began instead to listen to him.

Scientology made use of a peculiar technique called "auditing." A trained person sat with you and, by careful use of a pattern of direct questioning, sought to remove the force which certain key experiences in your past had on your daily life. My friend had experienced great benefits from this method, and he had been led to re-experience his birth, the violence of which he felt had determined a kind of nervous and aloof quality in him all his life. Now he felt particularly "cleared" of the force of that experience and all kind of other reactions that he had retained as unconscious controls on his behavior.

Scientology sought by these means to relieve a person from the machinery of memory and unconscious reactivity so that he could eventually attain a state called "clear." In the state of "clear" the reactive or unconscious mind was supposed to be entirely eliminated as a force...


___________________________________________Temporary end of quote__________________________________________

This is where the "beezone.com" quote ends due to copyright limitations. If I recall correctly, Jones wrote some positive things about the lower grades, and then went on to discuss the Clearing and OT levels:

_________________________________________Quote continued____________________________________________​


But when I actually performed the Clearing and O.T. levels I found that they continued to deal only with the content of the mind. And that content was continually identified with the peculiar cosmic politics favored by Ron Hubbard. Thus I felt that these levels never dealt with the fundamental problem of the mind itself, prior to any content. In fact. they only led people deeper and deeper into a fanciful, paranoiac dilemma in which they were indoctrinated into the mentality of a cosmic political holocaust.

The people with whom I worked were chronically seeking release and "exteriorization" from the contents of the mind and from the physical body. This was itself a motivation out of fear and very little wisdom. To be sure, the evidence of exteriorization is conclusive, as it appears in works such as those of Jung. But nowhere in spiritual literature is it offered as the goal of life. Neither is it declared to be a necessary event in every case, prior to perfect knowledge.

In Scientology, however, exteriorization is the object of constant seeking. It is the sign of a period in cosmic history when spiritual beings had great powers and mobile freedom in the spiritual universe. Thus, it is pursued quite apart from any kind of higher wisdom. Exteriorization and various powers are sought for their own sake. Even the phenomenon supposed to be attained at "O.T. 8," the highest stage of Scientology auditing at present, is called "total power."

I had taken up Scientology for reasons of my own and allowed myself to discover in it parallels to my own motives and experience. Thus, I had failed to recognize the precise nature of the study itself. It was only on the upper levels, when the activity of auditing had degenerated into exercises of pure nonsense, that I realized what I had in fact led myself into.

While I was busy doing the O. T. levels I dropped all my resistance to the internal operation of Shakti and began to recover my earlier state of awareness. The phenomena of exteriorization was not unfamiliar to me, but its importance was quite different from that in which it was conceived in Scientology. For me, it was only one of the possible phenomena encountered in the growth of real consciousness. I attached no necessity or radical importance to it, nor to any other kind of "power."

I saw that Scientology was actually a political entity created along the lines of a fanciful interpretation of history. Its goals were political, not spiritual. Thus, its leading concern was power, not wisdom or realization.


____________________________________________End of quote__________________________________________

Above is a pretty good chunk of the orignal chapter.

Jones gradually descended into abusive cult leader mode over a few years.

Jones left behind a small and fiercely dedicated personality cult that protects his image. They seem to have purged this chapter from the Internet.

After Scientology, Jones went from being a good natured "God man," to be a bad tempered, sex crazed, carnival sideshow "God man."




If someone has a (paper) copy of the orignal book, that is probably the only way to ensure that the content is complete and unedited.

Interesting observations. Too bad he went nuts.

Oh well.



Maher Baba, an earlier God man, was more fun at parties.





"Scientology made use of a peculiar technique called "auditing." A trained person sat with you and, by careful use of a pattern of direct questioning, sought to remove the force which certain key experiences in your past had on your daily life. My friend had experienced great benefits from this method, and he had been led to re-experience his birth, the violence of which he felt had determined a kind of nervous and aloof quality in him all his life. Now he felt particularly "cleared" of the force of that experience and all kind of other reactions that he had retained as unconscious controls on his behavior."

In an auditing session I "recalled" a part of my birth. I suddenly realized I could breathe on my own and I let out a war whoop as loud as I could. I was quite proud of myself for the accomplishment. Take it for what it's worth - Lol. There was an "earlier similar incident" so I didn't dwell on it and we moved on in the session.

Auditing people in a formal session with an emeter was interesting and even fun. Everyone I audited got to the Examiner with a Floating Needle so I guess I didn't mess anyone up too bad.
 
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Zertel

Well-known member
"Scientology made use of a peculiar technique called "auditing." A trained person sat with you and, by careful use of a pattern of direct questioning, sought to remove the force which certain key experiences in your past had on your daily life. My friend had experienced great benefits from this method, and he had been led to re-experience his birth, the violence of which he felt had determined a kind of nervous and aloof quality in him all his life. Now he felt particularly "cleared" of the force of that experience and all kind of other reactions that he had retained as unconscious controls on his behavior."

In an auditing session I "recalled" a part of my birth. I suddenly realized I could breathe on my own and I let out a war whoop as loud as I could. I was quite proud of myself for the accomplishment. Take it for what it's worth - Lol. There was an "earlier similar incident" so I didn't dwell on it and we moved on in the session.

Auditing people in a formal session with an emeter was interesting and even fun. Everyone I audited got to the Examiner with a Floating Needle so I guess I didn't mess anyone up too bad.
Soon after I left scn I hooked up with a woman who had been in a small cult called "The Center For Feeling Therapy" which was an offshoot of Primal (Scream) Therapy. Wiki notes that Primal Therapy gained interest and traction in the 1970's and there were numerous spin off clinics worldwide. The main gist of "The Center" as she called it was that to know your own Truth you need to consult your Innermost Feelings. Something like that.

Here's an excerpt from the wiki article on Primal Therapy:

"In 1973 a "birth simulator" was in use at the Primal Institute. The simulator was a 10-foot-long adjustable pressure vinyl tube. The patient was covered with a slick substance to simulate birth. Reports were made of bruises from obstetricians' fingers appearing on the skin of patients reliving their births.[77]"

My stream of consciousness continues - haha
Scn blogs and forums necessarily focus on the horrors of scn but every once in a while I like to take a lighter look.
 
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Zertel

Well-known member
I think there is some questioning of putting a person into re-experiencing or reliving a traumatic incident. Leaving the incident "unflat" in scn lingo could be problematic. At a quick glance it seems the website is favorable to the techniques in Traumatic Incident Reduction. Since it mentions "Given the excessive exposure to trauma experienced in the South African population . . . " it seems the government is willing to embrace an "alternative" approach to psychology in their social services sector.

That TIR follows a format similar to scn is unmistakable.

 
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Reyne Mayer

Pansexual Revolutionary
I think there is some questioning of putting a person into re-experiencing or reliving a traumatic incident.
yes. within a few years of Hubbard witnessing abreaction therapy in the Navy -- and before he'd gotten as far as plagiarizing it in Dianetic auditing -- it was abandoned because experience and research revealed that going back through traumas made some people worse. oh, and it also turned out to be mostly ineffective in the long run, in spite of the often impressive-seeming realizations and apparent emotional catharsis that ocurred during therapeutic sessions.

i think those two downsides largely describe the history of the Dianetics and Scientology that Hubbard plowed ahead with, ineffective long-term despite initial impresions, and with too high an incidence of bad outcomes.
 

Veda

Well-known member
Some people have gone insane in Scientology, but most people don't. People either leave fairly quickly, or are hooked for varying periods of time. As a general rule, the more deeply a person descends into the subject the greater the likelihood that the person will harmed in some fashion.

Occasionally, in Scientology, a person experiences what could be called abreaction (essentially catharsis).

Link to Scientology exploits catharsis thread.

Sometimes this happens with Dianetics, sometime with other "processes," but true abreaction is fairly uncommon; however, when it does occur, it usually results in some degree of relief, and Scientology is usually quick to attempt to exploit it.

It seems to be a little more complicated than "abreaction was abandoned." Abreaction, obviously, was not abandoned, and is still used by some therapists. From what I understand, usually it's used as a component of a range a therapies. Someone, with a greater interest in this topic than I, can look into it further.

What do therapists who use abreaction, as part of therapy, say?

What do the Meta-Psychology/TIR people say?

The now out of print book, Dianetics Today, contains thirty-three sessions - the work sheets - of people being "audited" on Dianetics, circa 1969. It was remarkable in that Scientology Inc. tends to be secretive, and preoccupied with PR, and publishing these sessions revealed a boring and uneventful series of sessions. No one was traumatized and no one seemed to derive much benefit, or any benefit.

Mostly, those being "audited" on Dianetics were not people who were shell shocked or who had PTSD. Such people tended to be disqualified from receiving "processing" as they're usually already on some medication.

Most "Dianetic preclears" were just ordinary people. Only rarely was an "engram" an actual seriously traumatic incident. Mostly it was a harmless memory, or imagination, or both.

Post script to Reyne:

Do you know the details of what was involved in the application of abreaction therapy done in the 1940s in the Navy?

What's done nowadays by therapists who use abreaction as a component of therapy, from what I understand, is quite different.
 
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Zertel

Well-known member
What do therapists who use abreaction, as part of therapy, say?

What do the Meta-Psychology/TIR people say?
About two years ago TIR came up on a scn blog and I decided to do some investigating and it turns out there was a TIR "facilitator" in a nearby town. In TIR the equivalent of an auditor is called a facilitator and a preclear is called a viewer. I decided to give him a call and see if he might want to chat with no intention of being critical, just to see how his practice was going and hopefully have some discussion of our experiences in counselling as sort of an academic discussion.

I gave him a call and he answered the phone. I started to introduce myself but as soon as I mentioned I had once been a Scientologist he immediately hung up on me! I called back and left a message on his message machine promising that I was in no way hostile or critical but he never called me back.

Most likely few if any TIR facilitators are ex Scientologists but that guy was obviously aware of the connection. Lol
 

Helena Handbasket

Well-known member
IMHO, there are some parts of the tech that work. But no one has achieved Clear or OT according to the famous definitions, and I'm not sure anyone ever will. However, one still can have some gains.

The greatest contribution the spinoffs have made have been to remove those things that were false, superfluous, or counterproductive -- like LRH being the sole source of it all, uniformed staff members on l-o-n-g contracts, and disconnection. And Scientology-like therapy, outside of Scientology proper, has been introduced to many segments of our society -- to the point where it's never going to go away totally; and I'm glad for that.

Helena, still trying to open a hole in her handbasket so she can get out
 

Zertel

Well-known member
IMHO, there are some parts of the tech that work. But no one has achieved Clear or OT according to the famous definitions, and I'm not sure anyone ever will. However, one still can have some gains.

The greatest contribution the spinoffs have made have been to remove those things that were false, superfluous, or counterproductive -- like LRH being the sole source of it all, uniformed staff members on l-o-n-g contracts, and disconnection. And Scientology-like therapy, outside of Scientology proper, has been introduced to many segments of our society -- to the point where it's never going to go away totally; and I'm glad for that.

Helena, still trying to open a hole in her handbasket so she can get out
The Lol I gave was for the "punchline". Laughter! I'm currently on a sabbatical from any type of vision quest.
 
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Veda

Well-known member
About two years ago TIR came up on a scn blog and I decided to do some investigating and it turns out there was a TIR "facilitator" in a nearby town. In TIR the equivalent of an auditor is called a facilitator and a preclear is called a viewer. I decided to give him a call and see if he might want to chat with no intention of being critical, just to see how his practice was going and hopefully have some discussion of our experiences in counselling as sort of an academic discussion.

I gave him a call and he answered the phone. I started to introduce myself but as soon as I mentioned I had once been a Scientologist he immediately hung up on me! I called back and left a message on his message machine promising that I was in no way hostile or critical but he never called me back.

Most likely few if any TIR facilitators are ex Scientologists but that guy was obviously aware of the connection. Lol
Interesting, but you'd have to make a bunch of phone calls to determine if it's typical. If it is typical, it's very unprofessional. And if TIR is acting as though it's not (largely) a warmed over version of some parts of Dianetics and Scientology that would less than honest. However, it's pretty normal for spin-offs - or subjects/groups that have ""borrowed" something from Scientology - not to mention Scientology. This is partly because of Scientology's bad reputation - and the usually lengthy explanation that is then required - and partly because it can incite Scientologists to harass, as Scientology's founder instructed them to do.

There is a view that "abreaction was abandoned," as if psychotherapy, as a subject, has a central command that issues decrees. Freud is supposed to have abandoned abreaction though regression and, then, we are to believe that all other psychotherapists and counselors - in lockstep - followed his example.

The other version is that, during the late 1940s, it was abandoned again, and, once again, compliantly, all other psychotherapists, and counselors, agreed.

Not that there isn't (or wasn't) peer pressure amongst therapists, but it expresses itself in different ways during different periods of time.


For example, regarding the open and serious discussion of reincarnation amongst psychotherapists in 1950, and the problem of admitting he (sometimes) consulted earlier (past) lives while giving therapy to others, Carl Jung stated:

"The zeitgeist, the spirit of the times, doesn't allow it."
Anyway, the phone book (when there were phone books), and now the internet, is loaded with counselors, coaches, therapists, hypnotherapists, past life regression therapists, etc.

Out of the psychotherapy soup, completely randomly, here's something, pretty typical, from the net:
If there's a central command, that forbids abreaction (which there may be soon enough, as our society seems to be moving towards totalitarianism), it's not expressing itself adequately at this time.
 

Karakorum

Well-known member
scientology itself is/was a spinoff.
Madame Blavatsky approves of this post.

So does Crowley. And Dayananda Saraswat. And Freud. And Jung. And Korzybski. And the manicheans, the gnostics, the neoplatonists...
 

Reyne Mayer

Pansexual Revolutionary
Madame Blavatsky approves of this post.

So does Crowley. And Dayananda Saraswat. And Freud. And Jung. And Korzybski. And the manicheans, the gnostics, the neoplatonists...
thanks for acking the OP :)

i'd put Korczybski at the front of the list just behind Crowley. Sarah Northrup was a big fan (as well as several others) and provided a lot of ideas to her bigamist husband, who she said didn't have what it took to study others' complex works like that himself, even as a plagiarist he was lazy.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.

I don't get it. The photos where Scientologists
are holding their arms up in the air.
What is that supposed to be
?



Seriously. What the hell are they supposed to be doing?!

Reminds me of some kind of religious rapture. . .




Do I have to List & Null this or can someone help me out?

Oh well, let's give it a try. . .

L&N
WHY ARE SCIENTOLOGISTS POSING FOR PHOTOS
WHILE HOLDING THEIR HANDS UP IN THE AIR
?

Something to do with a religious revivalist church
service where people are getting "saved"? tic

All these "total cause over life" OTs have been locked in a reg cycle
for 13 hours and now they are starting to raise their hands
to ask for permission to go to the restroom? tic

They are being run on group processing and complying
with all the nonsensical commands--just to get it over with. tic


Senior management just found the WHY Scientology's stats
have been crashing for the past 25 years. So they sent
a mission to every org to handle it by drilling staff members
to become more "insouciant" per Ron's datum on how to win.
To raise the staff's tone level and insouciance level, hip-hop
religious-rapture rappers were sent to each org where they
they begin each rap song with: "Put your hand in
the air like you just don't care!
" tic


The org's income is down that week and someone from
up-lines is holding a gun on them and just announced
"This is a stickup—put your hands in the air!"
LFBD


.
 
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Karakorum

Well-known member
But Korzipperski never had an FSM Rally, now did he? This is a DM original.

View attachment 14315
Every good rally needs a promo shirt with a catchy slogan (well, unless you happen to be Jeb Bush).

So being the good cultie, I have designed just the perfect shirt for the occasion:


 

PirateAndBum

Administrator
Staff member
.

I don't get it. The photos where Scientologists
are holding their arms up in the air.
What is that supposed to be
?



Seriously. What the hell are they supposed to be doing?!

Reminds me of some kind of religious rapture. . .




Do I have to List & Null this or can someone help me out?

Oh well, let's give it a try. . .

L&N
WHY ARE SCIENTOLOGISTS POSING FOR PHOTOS
WHILE HOLDING THEIR HANDS UP IN THE AIR
?

Something to do with a religious revivalist church
service where people are getting "saved"? tic

All these "total cause over life" OTs have been locked in a reg cycle
for 13 hours and now they are starting to raise their hands
to ask for permission to go to the restroom? tic

They are being run on group processing and complying
with all the nonsensical commands--just to get it over with. tic


Senior management just found the WHY Scientology's stats
have been crashing for the past 25 years. So they sent
a mission to every org to handle it by drilling staff members
to become more "insouciant" per Ron's datum on how to win.
To raise the staff's tone level and insouciance level, hip-hop
religious-rapture rappers were sent to each org where they
they begin each rap song with: "Put your hand in
the air like you just don't care!
" tic


The org's income is down that week and someone from
up-lines is holding a gun on them and just announced
"This is a stickup—put your hands in the air!"
LFBD


.
Nah, it's a new tech breakthrough from DM. It's being piloted as the "Simon DM Says" game.
 
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