Why Doesn’t Miscavige Write OT 9 & 10 Himself?

Reyne Mayer

Pansexual Revolutionary
Per Dr. Hubbard, chains don't erase until you locate and run the basic basic.

Can you think of an earlier similar guru who used the organization as his personal ATM; whose only real concerns beyond staying out of prison are not losing control of his cash machine and not losing his supply of slave minions???

If you can't find any earlier similar, the Church of Hoaxology is running a free introductory special this week where we'll give you a totally free CLUE in the form of the earlier similar guru's initials.
yep.

the inconvenient truth is that LRH used scientology as his personal piggy bank, including for his family as well, to such an extent that he cost the CoS its tax exemption for almost 2 decades, and the organization would have likely have gone under if not saved by DM in a deal with authorities that involved the Hubbard estate disgorging hundreds of millions of dollars of ill-gotten gains (hoarded while staff and members sacrificed their personal financial interests, under the propaganda deception that 'source' got little himself).

sales constituted a substantial commercial purpose, and a portion of its net earnings inured to the benefit of private individuals
Similarly, the purpose of the loans made to the Hubbards is unexplained. We do not know whether the terms were financially advantageous to plaintiff or whether in fact the loans were ever repaid. Indeed, the very existence of a private source of loan credit from an organization's earnings may itself amount to inurement of benefit. For comparable reasons, the proof concerning the payments for expenses and expenditures in behalf of plaintiff is also defective.
All the Hubbards were persons "having a personal and private interest in the activities of the organization."
 
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Reyne Mayer

Pansexual Revolutionary
I agree, but there are also people who make very dark choices in life for no obvious reason. Ted Bundy, for example, seemed to have everything going for him in life and yet he became a serial killer (there are similar ones in Britain too, such as Peter Sutcliffe, and Graham Young too who could probably have carved out a career in science had he not become a poisoner). We don't really understand why psychopaths are the way they are, and I suspect psychiatry never will because its terms of reference are too narrow.

As I've said here before, there is another class of people who seem to be innately destructive even though on the surface their lives look fine. They dress well, cut the lawn and take care of the house, go to church and may even hold down good jobs whilst their wives get severely depressed and their children self-harm and get addicted to alcohol and drugs. The late Scott Peck used to write about such people, whom he called "People of the Lie", but as as far as I know no one else has done so with the possible exception of Scientology with its "Suppressive Personalities".
i don't disagree, but the problem of virtually incorrigible pathological personalities, is a topic much too complex and vast for here.

here's food for thought: if Hubbard hadn't been born into an upwardly-mobile family with some connections, and got a reasonably good education, where might he have ended up otherwise? if he'd been born into the sort of circumstances that limited him to a 4th or 6th grade education (not at all uncommon in his era) and provided no advantages to leverage (connections to intelligensia like “Snake” Thompson, the Navy brass, etc.), could he have ended up as just a street thug, or maybe a grifter or pimp?

p.s. and great Scott Peck quote, thanks for that.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
here's food for thought: it Hubbard hadn't been born into an upwardly-mobile family with some connections, and got a reasonably good education, where might he have ended up otherwise? if he'd been born into the sort of circumstances that limited him to a 4th or 6th grade education (not at all uncommon in his era) and provided no advantages to leverage (connections to intelligentsia like “Snake” Thompson, the Navy brass, etc.), could he have ended up as just a street thug, or maybe a grifter or pimp?
.
I think it safe to conclude that had Hubbard been limited to a 4th grade education, he never would have risen to such stellar heights. I surmise that he would have been severely limited to just planetary clearing and have had no realistic chance of salvaging this sector.

.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Well-known member
i don't disagree, but the problem of virtually incorrigible pathological personalities, is a topic much too complex and vast for here.

here's food for thought: it Hubbard hadn't been born into an upwardly-mobile family with some connections, and got a reasonably good education, where might he have ended up otherwise? if he'd been born into the sort of circumstances that limited him to a 4th or 6th grade education (not at all uncommon in his era) and provided no advantages to leverage (connections to intelligensia like “Snake” Thompson, the Navy brass, etc.), could he have ended up as just a street thug, or maybe a grifter or pimp?

p.s. and great Scott Peck quote, thanks for that.
You're welcome. Peck's worth reading, but as a Christian he comes from a very different perspective than most Scns do and it's not easy to adjust to it if Scn is all you've known. He uses the word "evil" very freely, for instance.

If Hubbard hadn't come from the background he had done, or gone to college, I think he would have turned into one of those "con merchant" types who have always got some kind of a dodgy scheme on the go that he's trying to inveigle you into, but which always come to naught and you lose all your money. (In London he might be a shady, cigar-smoking car dealer with a Rolex and a sheepskin coat).

As for incorrigible personalities, there was a tragic story of an eight year old boy in England a few years ago who contracted encephalitis and lost the ability to empathise with other people as a result, i.e. he became psychopathic through a brain injury. He ended up murdering a younger boy in a particularly appalling fashion which I'm not going to mention here, although he had been a normal child before then.

So we know the brain is involved, but there may be other things as well.
 
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Reyne Mayer

Pansexual Revolutionary
So we know the brain is involved, but there may be other things as well.
yep, nature versus nurture.

there's the fascinating case of one of the researchers into psychopathy, who decided to take the tests they administer and found that he himself qualified as a psychopath. he realized that he grew up and guided himself in a direction that blunted the potential harms of his psychological proclivities or turned them in a positive direction, leading him to have a productive and well-socialized life.

those of us who perhaps struggle with a wee bit of what might be called autistic-like tendencies may know, for instance, that it's possible to train yourself to be more empathetic, or at least to have what is sometimes called affective empathy.

LRH, in contrast, apparently didn't even know what empathy was (the term was coined about 10 years before he was born), and was on a deliberate project to try to purge people of sympathy and similar human qualities.
 

Veda

Well-known member
You're quite fluent with and enjoy sci history. Have you ever seen this ancient (1954-1965) publication (oddity) The Aberree? :coolwink:
Came across this.

California Association of Dianetic Auditors Christmas party of 1964, recording of a session, plus. at 33:30, additional commentary

This is strange as it's described as being from "the Aldous Huxley and Laura Huxley papers at the UCLA Library."

There was a CADA Journal (CADA was the first "squirrel" group) that existed from 1952 into, at least, the late 1980s.
 

TheSneakster

Well-known member
there's the fascinating case of one of the researchers into psychopathy, who decided to take the tests they administer and found that he himself qualified as a psychopath. he realized that he grew up and guided himself in a direction that blunted the potential harms of his psychological proclivities or turned them in a positive direction, leading him to have a productive and well-socialized life.

Instead of questioning these tests as possibly seriously flawed and re-examining them with fellow qualified researchers ?
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
i'm only familiar with it in passing, i've never really dug in to any issues. is there something i should be looking for?
Nah, just some background for the curious. Wanted to make sure you knew about the website. It's obscure ancient history.

I posted one interesting tidbit on a new thread, just for grins. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Riddick

I clap to no man
i meant an outlier in terms of what attracted and engaged you. have you considered that maybe for you it was just the rhetoric, but for many others it was other factors, or a mix of factors including rhetoric?

others may have had very different experiences, regardless of intellectual agreement or the lack thereof.

i think you're on to a piece of the big picture, but that asserting that's all there is, and that your theory and experience generalize to everyone else, is an error that seems to me to actually ends up undercutting your efforts to make your point, especially when i look at other's responses to your claims. and i offer that helpfully, and sympathetically.

and come to think of it, one of Hubbard's major mistakes in my view, was generalizing (including his personal 'case' and psychopathies) and proposing one-size-fits-all solutions to human complexities. but that is also what attracted come people, including perhaps yourself -- seemingly easy answers to life's problems. heck, you might even say that is an illusion Hubbard sold with rhetoric -- are you still buying into it?
"i meant an outlier in terms of what attracted and engaged you. have you considered that maybe for you it was just the rhetoric, but for many others it was other factors, or a mix of factors including rhetoric?"

Yes, I have considered. But if you think in terms of rhetoric as ethos, logos and pathos instead of just simply persuasion, one won't get it. And if one has read a lot of Hubbards teachings, I have, one will come to the conclusion he used rhetoric. For me, I thought he was a nuclear engineer and found the the answer, he hubbard presented his words so that the logos in me, well, it seemed logical. For others, they may have been persuaded by pathos or emotions, in that dianetics and scientology will handle your emotions, it will take you from a wog to a clear with perfect memory and then a OT with metaphysical abilities. And ethos wise, joining dianetics and later scientology, why it gave one status or character, the elite of planet earth.

" heck, you might even say that is an illusion Hubbard sold with rhetoric"

you hit the nail on the head with that statement.
 

programmer_guy

True ex-Scientologist
@Riddick

1. For lower level Scientology auditing, do you believe that rhetoric is required to produce the feel-good feelings?

2. How much study have you done on topics about brain neuro-transmitters (especially for brain stress relief)?

I partially agree with you and partially disagree with you.
For Scientology, rhetoric is part of it but rhetoric is not all of it.

---
@Reyne Mayer
 
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Reyne Mayer

Pansexual Revolutionary
here's food for thought: if Hubbard hadn't been born into an upwardly-mobile family with some connections, and got a reasonably good education, where might he have ended up otherwise? if he'd been born into the sort of circumstances that limited him to a 4th or 6th grade education (not at all uncommon in his era) and provided no advantages to leverage (connections to intelligensia like “Snake” Thompson, the Navy brass, etc.), could he have ended up as just a street thug, or maybe a grifter or pimp?
i'd thought of adding to that something along the lines of

"or, without recourse to support and rehab for his admitted and reported substance dependencies, even just a drug addict or wino?"

and now LRH 2.0 is sort of dramatizing the point:

L. Ron Hubbard 2.0 surprises us yet again with his latest venture: Sitting in a Tennessee jail L. Ron Hubbard 2.0 surprises us yet again with his latest venture: Sitting in a Tennessee jail | The Underground Bunker

i don't think LRH 2.0 quite has Hubbard's intellectual talents -- though apparently he comes close enough for some people to buy into it. maybe he's closer to being an example of where DM might have ended up if not born into middle-class advantages....
 

Reyne Mayer

Pansexual Revolutionary
Instead of questioning these tests as possibly seriously flawed and re-examining them with fellow qualified researchers ?
don't you think a rigorous researcher would have done that as a matter of course?

actually, it involved PET scans, in which a signficant degree of correlation has been found between reduced activity in areas of the brain associated with empathy, morality and self-control, and psychopathic behavior. and on reflection he had 'always been aware that he was someone especially motivated by power and manipulating others' and had low empathy -- plus he has genetic markers for such traits as well, and comes from a family with 7 documented killers in it including Lizzie Borden:

The Neuroscientist Who Discovered He Was a Psychopath
While studying brain scans to search for patterns that correlated with psychopathic behavior, James Fallon found that his own brain fit the profile

link to some research on the subject:

The role of prefrontal cortex in psychopathy The role of prefrontal cortex in psychopathy
 

onceuponatime

Well-known member
tl;dr warning (I won't be offended if you skip this post.)

Original Poster on thread

"One answer to rule them all"
. . . Because all prior OT cases are failed cases and this situation
has never been resolved by anyone -- Mayo, Hubbard, Mithoff, Miscaviage -- since 1968.

In the words of David Mayo, "he [LRH] had just tossed me the ultimate Hot Potato!" Now that hot potato
has been tossed to David Miscavige to fix or solve.

My three proof points:

1.) The "next level" phenomenon for OT8s

I know of a still-active FSM and public speaker. Both he and his wife are OT8, Class 8, all Ls,
experienced in the chair, fifty-year veterans. They've inherited big family money and live in
a beautiful somewhat exclusive area, so day-to-day financial pressures don't seem like
an issue. He's still doing the traveling "major FSM shtick" and she's at home being really
depressed from what he's privately revealed. Every day. He's hoping that the upper OT
levels (9&10) will finally handle her. The "whatever" it is. That's what he's pinning all his
hopes on to resolve his situation at home. The "next level" phenomenon, so called.

He obviously didn't get the memo that the upper OT levels don't exist. Believer to the end.

2.) Same sh*t, different day phenomenon
I did the entire bridge to OT7 and was a highly trained auditor. I have audited OTs a few times.
I looked around at every OT (up to OT8) and auditor/CS (up to Class 8) I knew, or peripherally
knew of, and concluded some things from brutal and honest observation. There little or no
difference between Clears/OTs and unprocessed wogs in many areas of life, including, but
not limited to:
  • Cheating on spouses
  • Divorces
  • Financial crimes and dishonesty with money
  • Not paying back money owed
  • Sexual problems (even at the highest OT levels)
  • Chronic depression (even at the highest OT levels)
  • Early death from preventable diseases
  • Bankruptcy
  • Suicide rate
  • Cancer rate
  • Common illness rate
  • General happiness in life
  • Self worth and personal outlook on life
  • And more, much more . . .
What, I ask, is the point then? I never met an OT with the OT abilities that were promised by Hubbard.
And I've questioned quite a few. I don't have them and I've done all the stuff.

I contacted over a half a dozen upper-level, ex-SO CSes and asked if they had ever created a real OT.
Their answers were all an emphatic no! Seems like most people were struggling with lower level "wog"
problems, even at the highest levels, including stuff off the above list. In conversations with "OTs" on lines
at Flag, I pretty much came to same conclusion. Sometimes it was shocking what they were still trying to
"handle" case-wise.

3.) Crazy Eights phenomenon
Here's an interesting piece of trivia. The CSes at Flag had "Joker & Degrader" slang term for all the OT 8
cases, who were coming in all F'd up or badly misbehaving. And there were many. No one got their case
completely "handled" on OT8. They referred to them as "Crazy Eights." One of the Class 9s at Flag,
who was also a friend of mine, told me this. Nice how they view you behind closed doors, LOL.



So in summary, you're not gonna be pulling the air covers off of planets anytime soon. Trust me on that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think this post hits the nail on the head. I agree with all the points you made. People go up the Bridge being told the next level will handle their problems, of course it doesn't. Having un-released levels is kind of handy because they can just point to OT 9-15 and say well of course you still have problems, you're OT 8 but you haven't done the full Bridge. Having the release of 9 & 10 "around the corner" is also useful because people will stick around, hoping that 9 & 10 will handle them and it's coming soon (it's been coming soon for a long time).

I also agree that from my observation Scientology OTs are not any better off in their day to day lives. In fact I can think of many who are worse off than their non-Scientology peers. Where the non-Scientologists have retired and have a decent quality of life many of the Scientology OTs are broke and struggling to get by. I also seem to notice more divorces and health problems, but I've never tried to actually count everything, so it could just be my bias.

I think 9 & 10 are also particularly problematic as they are supposed to be the first "true" OT levels (whatever that means). Yes, OT 8 is also a "true" OT level but everyone knows it's really just putting the finishing touches on everything they've done OT 1-7. Many Scientologists are expecting a lot from OT 9 & 10, unleashing their true OT powers (I've heard this from several OT 8s). Good luck with that one DM, you're gonna need it.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
LRH, in contrast, apparently didn't even know what empathy was (the term was coined about 10 years before he was born), and was on a deliberate project to try to purge people of sympathy and similar human qualities.
Empathy was counter-productive to Hubbard's goal of getting massive amounts of wealth.

Executives were trained to have no empathy for their subordinates (being "worker oriented" was a serious sin for an exec, by policy). The way to get promoted was to demonstrate the ability to squeeze every last bit of production out of your people, at whatever cost to their health and mental well-being.

Registrars who failed to use every trick to get money out of public were replaced by more ruthless people.

And the end result of Hubbard's pursuit of wealth? He died isolated and alone, afraid to come out in public because of lawsuits and criminal complaints, and with his marriage and family destroyed.
 
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