What is going on with Mike Rinder & The Aftermath Foundation ? Down the Rabbit Hole YouTube : Fleas and Dogs: Letter from the Aftermath Foundation

Karakorum

Ron is the source that will lead you to grief
I never knew this..... Is this pretty true across the boards? I mean that OSA handled exterior threats only....such as defectors that were a problem....

And Inv ( what does that stand for? Investigation?) handled inside problems....?
Inv is the investigations unit. That is what I was in for most of my SO career.
Long story short: Big, complex, particularly convoluted or important ethics cases that were deemed too hard for the local MAA or EO ended up with us. We would take over.

If you heard the slang term: "Gators", that was us. Sometimes called "continental ethics" or "senior ethics" or even "ethiccs escalations" :scratch:.

If you got pulled for any ethics issues into the HGB where some girl/guy would grill you on the cans for hours and hours on end asking for all the who-what-when and what is your connection to all the AUs... that means you had landed with inv. :devil:
 

Lee #28

Well-known member
Inv is the investigations unit. That is what I was in for most of my SO career.
Long story short: Big, complex, particularly convoluted or important ethics cases that were deemed too hard for the local MAA or EO ended up with us. We would take over.

If you heard the slang term: "Gators", that was us. Sometimes called "continental ethics" or "senior ethics" or even "ethiccs escalations" :scratch:.

If you got pulled for any ethics issues into the HGB where some girl/guy would grill you on the cans for hours and hours on end asking for all the who-what-when and what is your connection to all the AUs... that means you had landed with inv. :devil:

Great. Thanks

If I remember correctly, Jesse Prince talks about a Group L..... or Crew L..... or Department L......?

What is that? Know anything about them?
 
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Karakorum

Ron is the source that will lead you to grief
If I remember correctly, Jesse Prince talks about a Group L..... or Crew L.....

What is that? Know anything about them?
Doesn't ring a bell, maybe with more context I could help.

Jesse was active before my time. So he might be talking about something that existed back in the GO day but not in the 2000s, or he might be using a slang term that nobody at PAC was using in my day.

@Karen#1 Hey Karen, maybe you know more about the L-Group?
 

vegan3

Well-known member
Addendum: Maybe it is a generational thing? I'm seeing many people my grandparent's age mostly agree with Mike's decisions, while most people my age or younger seem to think he's beign childish and silly.
the indies are supporting rinder. the people still drinking kool aid with no critical thinking skills are supporting rinder. i'm old. i never followed leah. i don't watch tv. zero that rinder has done has come anywhere near my existence. so if he takes his toys and leaves, GREAT. the only people helping OSA are the INDIES. what docs were on his thumb drive we have no clue. what he gave the headleys and leah may have only been SOME. is the cult paying him to be gatekeeper? he sure isn't making a living off a stupid blog. no response needed. i'm not coming back to this thread.
 

Karakorum

Ron is the source that will lead you to grief
the indies are supporting rinder. the people still drinking kool aid with no critical thinking skills are supporting rinder. i'm old. i never followed leah. i don't watch tv. zero that rinder has done has come anywhere near my existence. so if he takes his toys and leaves, GREAT.
Thanks, maybe I'm seeing patterns where there's none, or just making conclusions based on a too small sample.

the only people helping OSA are the INDIES.
I do not think anyone is helping OSA, not Mike, not Miriam, not the indies who are giving their honest opinions on the matter... regardless what those opinions are. That's just my take on it. While I can't 1000% rule out any OSA involvement, so far I'm not seeing any evidence of it.
 
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mimsey borogrove

Well-known member
Mike has been a very prominent figure in the community and he was also very prominent inside the cult. To me that alone makes it unavoidable that people will have strong opinions of what he does and did. Some of those opinions will be very negative. I think the adult thing to do is just to get to grips with that reality.

It is Mike's right to get offended, take his toys out of the sandbox and go lock himself in his room. But it is my right to say that it is not a very mature way of dealing whith other people's opinions.

Seems Mike prefers to run away and hide instead just correct his course and finally talk about OSA. I do not understand his decision, but it is a free country and he can do taht if he wants.


Disclaimer: Of course I have not read through all the private correspondence he was getting, maybe there were credible death threats against his wife by people demanding he ceases online activities or something. That seems unlikley, but I can't rule that out.



Addendum: Maybe it is a generational thing? I'm seeing many people my grandparent's age mostly agree with Mike's decisions, while most people my age or younger seem to think he's beign childish and silly.
Mmm - back then he was midst surviving cancer (correct?) - the treatment wipes you out physically. About all you want to do is sleep. I have had that conversation with 3 people 1 who beat it, one who didn't, and we buried a few months ago, and another who doubts she will beat it a second time.

If that was going on when this raised its ugly head, I can understand big lags in responding to her wants.

Mimsey
 

mimsey borogrove

Well-known member
Thanks, maybe I'm seeing patterns where there's none, or just making conclusions based on a too small sample.

I do not think anyone is helping OSA, not Mike, not Miriam, not the indies who are giving their honest opinions on the matter... regardless what those opinions are. That's just my take on it. While I can't 1000% rule out any OSA involvement, so far I'm not seeing any evidence of it.
IMO, it's not that they are OSA supporters, but they feel for her and feel he's the why. You know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions? Do you remember vectors from high school science? It's the direction of these attacks on Mike that have the net effect of helping OSA, despite the people who think they are doing the right thing by dissing him.

Mimsey
 
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Karakorum

Ron is the source that will lead you to grief
If that was going on when this raised its ugly head, I can understand big lags in responding to her wants.
Have no idea if that is the case, I heard people say that he is in as good health as he can be given his condition, he is taking some medication but not chemo or radiotherapy. But this is 2nd hand info.

What I can say 100% is that he was equally unwilling to talk in depth about OSA several years before he was diagnosed. So maybe it plays a part now, but his zipped-lips is a far longer pattern.

IMO, it's not that they are OSA supporters, but they feel for her and feel he's the why. You know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions? Do you remember vectors from high school science? It's the direction of these attacks on Mike that have the net effect of helping OSA, despite the people who think they are doing the right thing by dissing him.
Any discord helps OSA. But the 'vectors' go both ways - Mike's actions are playing into OSA's hand just as much if not more so.

I do not want to telll Miriam what to do. If it was me, I'd prolly have worded the questions in a less agressive, less accusatory way. But I didn't go through the hell she went through, I didn';t walk in her shoes.
At the same time to me the core underlying issue is not Miriam, but it is Mike's very long standing policy of not talking about OSA and not sharing his personal experience. That is the main thing taht imho has to change if this situation is to be peacefully resolved.
To change that, Mike also neeeds to get off his high horse and admitt that even people who did not hold "positions of significant authority in upper management" are entitled to ask questions and hear answers about OSA. If Mike thinks they do not have enough insider knowledge about OSA... well, then he is exactly the person who HAS that info and who can share it and dispell any incorrect notions they might have.

Also, Mike's tone-deaf comments about dogs, fleas, keyboard-warriors and rabbits out of Davey's hat... none of that is helping either.



So long story short: I think this can be resolved, but most corrective actions will need to come from Mike.

Mike is the utmost expert on OSA and pretty much the only expert who could possibly speak out. Donatella is not gonna talk, Pat is not gonna talk, Frits is dead, Jake, Billy and Richards are still in afaik and they for sure won't talk. There's nobody else who can do Mike's job for him here. He is the onloy one who can provide deep, personal experience as far as OSA operations, tactics and the history of past coverups. Mike is the only person who could help and people DO get frustrated when he doesn't.



I wish everyone involved, including Mike, all the very best.
 
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Isaac

Well-known member
Inv is the investigations unit. That is what I was in for most of my SO career.
Long story short: Big, complex, particularly convoluted or important ethics cases that were deemed too hard for the local MAA or EO ended up with us. We would take over.

If you heard the slang term: "Gators", that was us. Sometimes called "continental ethics" or "senior ethics" or even "ethiccs escalations" :scratch:.

If you got pulled for any ethics issues into the HGB where some girl/guy would grill you on the cans for hours and hours on end asking for all the who-what-when and what is your connection to all the AUs... that means you had landed with inv. :devil:
. That sounds really interesting
Would you share stories without using names ?
 

Karakorum

Ron is the source that will lead you to grief

Lee #28

Well-known member
So.....from the above information.....it sounds like OSA would be executing all Fair Game Operations...for the Cult...

Where as Inv Unit.....it Pre-Fair Game....sort of…
 
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Karakorum

Ron is the source that will lead you to grief
. That sounds really interesting
Would you share stories without using names ?
Well, INV was a continental management level unit, which in theory should have been reporting to Senior Dir I&R CLO WUS, but de facto pretty much all our orders arrived to us directly via CMO.

I actually shared a lot of information on the investigations unit on this forum and the old forums as well. Though it was spread over many posts over the years.

I think a good place to start are these threads:

1: Ethetan asked me what INV was usually tasked with, in this post I give a short explanation:
https://exscn2.net/threads/the-continental-investigations-unit-is-now-dead.5166/page-3#post-138083

2: The thread started about archives, but I end up explaining some basic stuff about inv too:
https://exscn2.net/threads/digitizng-scientology-the-analog-program-transcripts-of-confessionals-etc.7803/

3: This one is my personal story of my road through various parts of the CoS. It has quite a bit of stories, without most people's rela names tho:
My stepping stones™ to total freedom from scientology

4: This one gives examples of the sort of crazy KRs that sometimes found their way to my desk:
Stories about stupid KRs - redux

5: Now this tread... start with post #19 where Enthetan asks how INV would react in some scenarios and a few posts below you'll find my answer. I think this gives a good idea what INV did, how we thought and what was going on:
https://exscn2.net/threads/lol-w-g-justice-suc-s.5972/

6: Now here I explain what hypotethically INV would have done if Danny Masterson's case got assigned to us:
https://exscn2.net/threads/the-danny-masterson-trial-thread.5624/page-7#post-145953

7: Start with page 3 of this thread.. I end up talking about the experience of actually being at INV and dealing with documentation and the horrible quality of it all:
https://exscn2.net/threads/chicago-has-2-pallets-of-dead-pc-folders.3247/page-3


There's prolly 10+ more threads where I discuss it, but these are off the top of my head.
Now don't get me wrong: I'm open to discussing these things (light is the best disinfectant!), so feel free to ask if you do not want to read so much old post stuff. I'm just giving you a spectrum of what I already said about it..

Inv was my whole life for the last few of my years in the SO. I lived and breathed it 100% day-and-night. I can go on and on and on about it. It wasn't a fun experience and it was abusive to the people we interrogated. But INV was one of the best and most tight-knit outfits in the SO as well. People were friendly, nobody would rat-you out. You could be as J&D as you wanted and nobody would rat you out. That's how peopel stayed sane in taht place and despite all the sleep deprivation.


Anyway... I think I can derail this thread easily now. ;)

Where as Inv Unit.....it Pre-Fair Game....
The shortest way I could describe it was:
If things got too complex for your EO or MAA, you'd be sent to INV and we'd handle it. If there was an ethics case and the bigwigs in management would take notice, it would likely be sent to INV. If tehre was some large conspiracy (think: Whole org conspiring to falsify stats), it would get sent to INV.

What would not get sent to INV:
- Rape and similar stuff. Prolly handled by lawyers and OSA.
- Cases of people who left or were declared. These were OSA turf or the international justice chief if they asked to come back.
- Cases of celebrities. I have no idea who handled them, I think it was either OSA int or some people hand-picked by Davey.
 
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Isaac

Well-known member
Mmm - back then he was midst surviving cancer (correct?) - the treatment wipes you out physically. About all you want to do is sleep. I have had that conversation with 3 people 1 who beat it, one who didn't, and we buried a few months ago, and another who doubts she will beat it a second time.

If that was going on when this raised its ugly head, I can understand big lags in responding to her wants.

Mimsey
And how else do you justify Mike Rinders cultish bad behavior?

Mims- you are clueless as to what occurred, Rinder’s cancer and current condition and I find it interesting that you continue to defend him without doing research on both sides making up excuses to be right.

After being scammed and harmed by Scientology, I would hope ex cult members would not be unduly influenced by other HIGH CONTROL CULTS, GROUPS, BUSINESSES - MLM'S AND RELIGIONS and will not take any time to collect all facts. Therefore, they get sucked in easily to high control groups who promise riches and spritual freedom if they would only join and follow the leader. I can literally hear a sucking sound when these poor souls approximate a different cult.

No one is obligated to do it and plenty don’t. Most of my family and friends who have left the cult remained unduly influenced by others if their beliefs are challenged… they won’t or can’t think for themselves and refuse to watch documentaries, read books or communicate about how they got trapped and harmed by the cult.

The result is - they are vulnerable to manipulation and attracted to other cults so they don’t have to think for themselves and remain in the bubble of delusion and implanted ideas from Scientology tech.. and utilize false data like … “ you pulled it in” "I don't know...I was not there" and other ideas that have proven to be fatal. because they become extreme.

The ones I personally know were traumatized by Scientology with financial ruin, forecloure, bankruptcy, shattered families and friends, shattered minds and have Complex Post Traumatic Syndrome currently still suffereing from depression but won’t discuss Scientology due to deep implants into their subconscious mind. The solution - don't look, don't speak, don't investigate... just JOIN ANOTHER CULT!

They try to improve their condition by only discussing the good they got out of Scientology and then fall victims to other mind controlling manipulative cults.

Sadly, I witnessed them fall prey to scamming by multi level marketing and/ or religious cult groups where they get pumped up daily by prayer meetings & sales hype musters telling them how saved they will be or how rich they will get while charging them for training, marketing and leads etc repeating over and over.. you are responsible for your condition.. as many of them are not entrepreneurs and have no skills to work on their own due to decades of being told what to do. The result - bankruptcy and more trauma

These religious cults & MLM scams are traps and they drain bank accounts and exploit family and friends.

Team National snagged a few of my family members and ripped them off royally leaving them further beaten down but they refuse to talk about it and then get sucked into religious cults. Because the “basic” belief on the chain… so to speak..,Scientology thought implant was never looked at objectively and deprogrammed… the utilize “disconnection” if you challenge their beliefs. They are victims to being in cults and will sadly never be free.

A few people (OTVIII ‘s) even went back into the Catholic Church cult after telling me for years they don't understand how anyone could be a Cathoic. The recently told me they went back to the religion they were born into and got really defensive if I challenged it.

Some got sucked into the Joel Olsteen cult and even moved to Joel’s city so they can connect to “source” at his big culty church building.

They are run by beliefs and disabled from critical independent thinking skills.

Mims - you apoear to me to be one of those people who won’t take the time to research but will forward the narrative of your choice based on beliefs That is dangerous and irresponsible conduct, in my humble opinion. You are free to be that way but your opinion does not carry any weight due to your laziness in not looking.
 
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mimsey borogrove

Well-known member
And how else do you justify Mike Rinders cultish bad behavior?

Mims- you are clueless as to what occurred, Rinder’s cancer and current condition and I find it interesting that you continue to defend him without doing research on both sides making up excuses to be right.

After being scammed and harmed by Scientology, I would hope ex cult members would not be unduly influenced by other HIGH CONTROL CULTS, GROUPS, BUSINESSES - MLM'S AND RELIGIONS and will not take any time to collect all facts. Therefore, they get sucked in easily to high control groups who promise riches and spritual freedom if they would only join and follow the leader. I can literally hear a sucking sound when these poor souls approximate a different cult.

No one is obligated to do it and plenty don’t. Most of my family and friends who have left the cult remained unduly influenced by others if their beliefs are challenged… they won’t or can’t think for themselves and refuse to watch documentaries, read books or communicate about how they got trapped and harmed by the cult.

The result is - they are vulnerable to manipulation and attracted to other cults so they don’t have to think for themselves and remain in the bubble of delusion and implanted ideas from Scientology tech.. and utilize false data like … “ you pulled it in” "I don't know...I was not there" and other ideas that have proven to be fatal. because they become extreme.

The ones I personally know were traumatized by Scientology with financial ruin, forecloure, bankruptcy, shattered families and friends, shattered minds and have Complex Post Traumatic Syndrome currently still suffereing from depression but won’t discuss Scientology due to deep implants into their subconscious mind. The solution - don't look, don't speak, don't investigate... just JOIN ANOTHER CULT!

They try to improve their condition by only discussing the good they got out of Scientology and then fall victims to other mind controlling manipulative cults.

Sadly, I witnessed them fall prey to scamming by multi level marketing and/ or religious cult groups where they get pumped up daily by prayer meetings & sales hype musters telling them how saved they will be or how rich they will get while charging them for training, marketing and leads etc repeating over and over.. you are responsible for your condition.. as many of them are not entrepreneurs and have no skills to work on their own due to decades of being told what to do. The result - bankruptcy and more trauma

These religious cults & MLM scams are traps and they drain bank accounts and exploit family and friends.

Team National snagged a few of my family members and ripped them off royally leaving them further beaten down but they refuse to talk about it and then get sucked into religious cults. Because the “basic” belief on the chain… so to speak..,Scientology thought implant was never looked at objectively and deprogrammed… the utilize “disconnection” if you challenge their beliefs. They are victims to being in cults and will sadly never be free.

A few people (OTVIII ‘s) even went back into the Catholic Church cult after telling me for years they don't understand how anyone could be a Cathoic. The recently told me they went back to the religion they were born into and got really defensive if I challenged it.

Some got sucked into the Joel Olsteen cult and even moved to Joel’s city so they can connect to “source” at his big culty church building.

They are run by beliefs and disabled from critical independent thinking skills.

Mims - you apoear to me to be one of those people who won’t take the time to research but will forward the narrative of your choice based on beliefs That is dangerous and irresponsible conduct, in my humble opinion. You are free to be that way but your opinion does not carry any weight due to your laziness in not looking.
I give up. Let's move on.

Mmsey
 

Isaac

Well-known member
I give up. Let's move on.

Mmsey
An interesting response and typical from those who don't really want to know, can't have others know and/or won't discuss so others know.
You are free to hide if you wish, Mims. That is what Mike Rinder did.
I, on the other hand, don't want to "move on" as I feel this is an important subject to discuss as it is happening across every arena in this world..... how undue influence and mind control works and how people defend beliefs without doing their homework and having a rounded viewpoint.
It's culty to me...but what do I know... I grew up in a cult. ;)
 

mimsey borogrove

Well-known member
An interesting response and typical from those who don't really want to know, can't have others know and/or won't discuss so others know.
You are free to hide if you wish, Mims. That is what Mike Rinder did.
I, on the other hand, don't want to "move on" as I feel this is an important subject to discuss as it is happening across every arena in this world..... how undue influence and mind control works and how people defend beliefs without doing their homework and having a rounded viewpoint.
It's culty to me...but what do I know... I grew up in a cult. ;)
What would I gain by watching multiple videos of this mess? These travesties have been going on in Scientology since the fifties. I have seen many of them come and go in the 40 something years I was a scientologist. Would my life be improved by knowing yet again they have trashed another's life? Am I in a position to do jackshit about her plight? Is she posting on this site asking our advice? Does she even care what we say about her situation? What will I learn about the toxic nature of Scientology that I don't already know?

Please, let's move on.

Mimsey
 
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Lee #28

Well-known member
And how else do you justify Mike Rinders cultish bad behavior?

Mims- you are clueless as to what occurred, Rinder’s cancer and current condition and I find it interesting that you continue to defend him without doing research on both sides making up excuses to be right.

After being scammed and harmed by Scientology, I would hope ex cult members would not be unduly influenced by other HIGH CONTROL CULTS, GROUPS, BUSINESSES - MLM'S AND RELIGIONS and will not take any time to collect all facts. Therefore, they get sucked in easily to high control groups who promise riches and spritual freedom if they would only join and follow the leader. I can literally hear a sucking sound when these poor souls approximate a different cult.

No one is obligated to do it and plenty don’t. Most of my family and friends who have left the cult remained unduly influenced by others if their beliefs are challenged… they won’t or can’t think for themselves and refuse to watch documentaries, read books or communicate about how they got trapped and harmed by the cult.

The result is - they are vulnerable to manipulation and attracted to other cults so they don’t have to think for themselves and remain in the bubble of delusion and implanted ideas from Scientology tech.. and utilize false data like … “ you pulled it in” "I don't know...I was not there" and other ideas that have proven to be fatal. because they become extreme.

The ones I personally know were traumatized by Scientology with financial ruin, forecloure, bankruptcy, shattered families and friends, shattered minds and have Complex Post Traumatic Syndrome currently still suffereing from depression but won’t discuss Scientology due to deep implants into their subconscious mind. The solution - don't look, don't speak, don't investigate... just JOIN ANOTHER CULT!

They try to improve their condition by only discussing the good they got out of Scientology and then fall victims to other mind controlling manipulative cults.

Sadly, I witnessed them fall prey to scamming by multi level marketing and/ or religious cult groups where they get pumped up daily by prayer meetings & sales hype musters telling them how saved they will be or how rich they will get while charging them for training, marketing and leads etc repeating over and over.. you are responsible for your condition.. as many of them are not entrepreneurs and have no skills to work on their own due to decades of being told what to do. The result - bankruptcy and more trauma

These religious cults & MLM scams are traps and they drain bank accounts and exploit family and friends.

Team National snagged a few of my family members and ripped them off royally leaving them further beaten down but they refuse to talk about it and then get sucked into religious cults. Because the “basic” belief on the chain… so to speak..,Scientology thought implant was never looked at objectively and deprogrammed… the utilize “disconnection” if you challenge their beliefs. They are victims to being in cults and will sadly never be free.

A few people (OTVIII ‘s) even went back into the Catholic Church cult after telling me for years they don't understand how anyone could be a Cathoic. The recently told me they went back to the religion they were born into and got really defensive if I challenged it.

Some got sucked into the Joel Olsteen cult and even moved to Joel’s city so they can connect to “source” at his big culty church building.

They are run by beliefs and disabled from critical independent thinking skills.

Mims - you apoear to me to be one of those people who won’t take the time to research but will forward the narrative of your choice based on beliefs That is dangerous and irresponsible conduct, in my humble opinion. You are free to be that way but your opinion does not carry any weight due to your laziness in not looking.
Do me next, do me next!

I could use a good tongue lashing....

I need a wake up call for sure... :D
 
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