What if Hubbard had been honest?

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Hubbard thought the had something of value; he also knew it was not as as advertised. (In other words, fraud.)
Hubbard was greedy for money and power.

Techniques which may make people feel slightly more calm and happy would not generate large cash flows.
 

Veda

Well-known member
Hubbard was greedy for money and power.

Techniques which may make people feel slightly more calm and happy would not generate large cash flows.
Relevant to this discussion are some comments about the Can We Ever Be Friends? cassette tapes.

Uh, I thought it was: "Can We Ever Be Friends?"

I think that tape ranks as the primo, indubitably, superlatively cringe-tastic thing EVER produced by Hubbard.
Me and a fellow clam listened to it together. I actually bought the damn cassette. We both had that reaction. We couldn't understand why the actor sounded so weird. The so called mocking up of the emotions of the Tone Scale was dumb and obvious. I kept the tape because I never throw anything away and besides, I paid good money for it.

The obvious question would have been: IF SCIENTOLOGY WORKS, THEN WHY IS THIS TAPE SO STUPID?

I think I even asked that question of myself many times in many different situations. But it wasn't enough. I was too much into the cult experience.
There were two versions of this tape. The earlier version was narrated by someone (very badly) portraying a stereotypical (Norman Rockwell type) grandfather or clergyman. Embarrassingly contrived, with the apparent objective of making the "wogs" (usually older people/parents) feel comfortable. Most people here, so far, only seem to have heard the second version.

The first version was interesting in that it began with "running pleasure moments" (informally, without saying that's what is being done). This, to further relax the ("PTS"/"SP"?) "wogs," to create a "floating needle" state - Alpha and Theta brain waves - to set up the "wogs" for the next step, which was an infusion of PR and dishonest propaganda. As I recall, one of the targets of the (black) propaganda was Paulette Cooper, and all this was presented with the same contrived grandfatherly voice. (Hubbard regarded the sound of a voice has having persuasive power, even writing in his secret Affirmations about the hypnotic power of his own deep voice.)

No doubt the sound of Hubbard's voice - apart from the words themselves - has power over Scientologists, and it's common for Scientologists to regard Hubbard as having had tremendous charisma.

This power and charisma - outside the Hubbard cult - does diminish drastically.


"You are a master.
You are as sensitive and sexy as Pan.
Lord help women when you begin to fondle them.
You are a master of their bodies,
master of their souls
as you may consciously wish.
You have no Karma to pay for these acts.
You cannot now accumulate karma
for you are a master adept.
Your voice is low and compelling to them,
singing to them, for you sing like a master,

destroys their will to resist."
L. Ron Hubbard's 1946 Affirmations


The second cassette, I think, is on the Internet, but I don't particularly want to listen to it again. Someone else, with a greater sense of morbid curiosity than I, might do so, however - and, perhaps, locate the first cassette.

Anyway, the attempt to induce a state of trust (with the contrived voice), and a state of relaxation, and a pleasurable mind-set (with pleasure moment running), before deceiving or manipulating, showed Scientology Inc. combining an assortment of actions.

This is further examined in the Scientology Exploits Catharsis thread.

*
This thread began with a song from Van Morrison's Inarticulate Speech of the Heart album of 1983.
Three years later he released another album titled No Guru, No Method, No Teacher.

A recent offering by Van Morrison:



And from Eric Clapton and Van Morrison:

 

F.Bullbait

Wise Guy
After listening to desperate pleas for money, wog relatives receive this tape and probably perceive it as' Can We Ever Get Your $?'



PS: I was still in when they trotted out the original tape with the usual fanfare. The cringe-worthiness of the production was apparent to anyone with a lick of sense.
 
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Riddick

I clap to no man
Hubbard thought the had something of value; he also knew it was not as as advertised. (In other words, fraud.)

Van Morrison wrote and performed this song when he was receiving Life Repair auditing at Celebrity Center.



I actually have a different viewpoint. I think hubbard thought he found something that would change the world and free man, and he used rhetoric to persuade people into thinking his was right. Hubbard continued to write and lecture from Dianetics to scientology, using the e-meter as proof, and believed in the emeter, hence he wrote and lectured lots of millions of words. How many courses and how many students have done Emeter drills, etc?

Hubbard thru his rhetoric writing & lectures convinced a lot of people into doing his stuff. He got many money's for it. Hubbard got his a penny a word. Hubbard created a following, he created a empire of Scientology Orgs, Scientology Missions, etc. He didn't get everybody, and anybody opposed to him was labeled a PTS or SP.

In the end, he told Sarge he failed. That means, nobody really went clear, and nobody went OT, and nobody has returned from past life using scientology.
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
I actually have a different viewpoint. I think hubbard thought he found something that would change the world and free man, and he used rhetoric to persuade people into thinking his was right. Hubbard continued to write and lecture from Dianetics to scientology, using the e-meter as proof, and believed in the emeter, hence he wrote and lectured lots of millions of words. How many courses and how many students have done Emeter drills, etc?

Hubbard thru his rhetoric writing & lectures convinced a lot of people into doing his stuff. He got many money's for it. Hubbard got his a penny a word. Hubbard created a following, he created a empire of Scientology Orgs, Scientology Missions, etc. He didn't get everybody, and anybody opposed to him was labeled a PTS or SP.

In the end, he told Sarge he failed. That means, nobody really went clear, and nobody went OT, and nobody has returned from past life using scientology.
Take a look at Hubbard...especially during the time when Dianetics is published.

He's on the lam from his first marriage. His wife can't locate him and is forced to move in with his parents...kids in tow.

She's receiving ZERO child support.

Hubbard claims that HE was abandoned to die all alone and didn't know where she was at. Obviously, he had no clue where his parents lived.

He's in a free sex cult mooching off of his buddy...masturbating to create the devil's child/anti-Christ with....Magik. He steals the hot babe 17 year old girlfriend of his buddy and they take off to live it up on a yacht in Florida bought and paid for by this guy and the whole time Hubbard is trying to get disability out of the U.S. government for war ravages that he never experienced. All this time his wife and kids are the burden of Gramma and Grampa Hubbard and Hubbard claims that during this time he was forgotten and abandoned by these people and cured himself of all the ailments that he continued to beg for money from the government for...

The 17 year old hot free sex babe does the research for the book where he claims 270 cases were Cleared or Released.

Does this look honest to you? Irrespective when he thought he found something - what's honest here?

As far as Hubbard finding something that he thought worked I've read a couple stories of 1st timers saying that Hubbard was shocked that it worked and never took it personally seriously until he saw others get value out of it. In addition, how much of the workable stuff came from people like Alan Walters, et al?

Anything and everything workable he immediately branded himself as the author of to get the royalties and then manipulated and twisted the findings of this stuff in order to maximize the exploitation of any consumers. He twisted everything around.

For instance, Scientology "ethics" is all about protecting him, his "church" and Scientology. All other industries and professions have ethical codes to protect consumers. Why would an honest entity need protection?
 

Veda

Well-known member
I actually have a different viewpoint. I think hubbard thought he found something that would change the world and free man,
Can you show us anything from Hubbard's private writings, such as his 1938 Skipper letter re. Excalibur, or his late 1946/early 1947 Affirmations, where Hubbard expressed a desire to free man?

and he used rhetoric to persuade people into thinking his was right. Hubbard continued to write and lecture from Dianetics to scientology, using the e-meter as proof, and believed in the emeter, hence he wrote and lectured lots of millions of words. How many courses and how many students have done Emeter drills, etc?
Is regarding the e-meter as a truth detector also rhetoric?

Hubbard thru his rhetoric writing & lectures convinced a lot of people into doing his stuff. He got many money's for it. Hubbard got his a penny a word. Hubbard created a following, he created a empire of Scientology Orgs, Scientology Missions, etc. He didn't get everybody, and anybody opposed to him was labeled a PTS or SP.

In the end, he told Sarge he failed. That means, nobody really went clear, and nobody went OT, and nobody has returned from past life using scientology.
We still don't know what Hubbard meant by "he failed." Failed at what? Hubbard's father lived to be 89. His son was sickly and feeble at 74. He saw himself as a wanted man - on the run, in hiding. He knew he had a giant unpaid tax bill to the IRS. He was subject to periods of depression.

Sarge, naively, thought Hubbard's publicly stated aims were has real aims.

You seem to assume that too.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.
HAIKU KOAN

What if Hubbard had
been honest? What if tech taught
that "Ron's an SP"?

.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
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Riddick

I clap to no man
Take a look at Hubbard...especially during the time when Dianetics is published.

He's on the lam from his first marriage. His wife can't locate him and is forced to move in with his parents...kids in tow.

She's receiving ZERO child support.

Hubbard claims that HE was abandoned to die all alone and didn't know where she was at. Obviously, he had no clue where his parents lived.

He's in a free sex cult mooching off of his buddy...masturbating to create the devil's child/anti-Christ with....Magik. He steals the hot babe 17 year old girlfriend of his buddy and they take off to live it up on a yacht in Florida bought and paid for by this guy and the whole time Hubbard is trying to get disability out of the U.S. government for war ravages that he never experienced. All this time his wife and kids are the burden of Gramma and Grampa Hubbard and Hubbard claims that during this time he was forgotten and abandoned by these people and cured himself of all the ailments that he continued to beg for money from the government for...

The 17 year old hot free sex babe does the research for the book where he claims 270 cases were Cleared or Released.

Does this look honest to you? Irrespective when he thought he found something - what's honest here?

As far as Hubbard finding something that he thought worked I've read a couple stories of 1st timers saying that Hubbard was shocked that it worked and never took it personally seriously until he saw others get value out of it. In addition, how much of the workable stuff came from people like Alan Walters, et al?

Anything and everything workable he immediately branded himself as the author of to get the royalties and then manipulated and twisted the findings of this stuff in order to maximize the exploitation of any consumers. He twisted everything around.

For instance, Scientology "ethics" is all about protecting him, his "church" and Scientology. All other industries and professions have ethical codes to protect consumers. Why would an honest entity need protection?
I never said he was honest. I said he used rhetoric, and to be more specific, he used Dean Wilbur's rhetoric.

I'm quite aware of everything you replied to me. What everybody is not aware of is the beginning of Dianetics and Hubbard's involvement with Campbell and Heinlein and a bunch of others. I tried to get Tony O to read the letters and a few others about the Campbell/Heinlein letters. What those letters basically revealed was that Campbell fell for Hubbard's rhetoric that he had found the solution to a aberrated person, just get rid of engrams using dianetic procedure. Heinlein on the other hand, had a wait and see attitude. Eventually Campbell denounced Dianetics and Heinlein didn't say anything nor did he follow. At that point in time, after the 1950's dianetics boom, hubbard was silent. And then he emerged, somehow, not quite sure how, but the fucker then went onto creating a religion out of the whole thing. Shoot, it was in 1952 we have the Scientology PDC's about thetans and past life and space opera.

With that in mind, Hubbard created a scientology boom. Although he got kicked out of the USA, or ran, whatever, he then managed to get into Saint Hill and create Scientology with lots of books, lectures, etc.. And he got kicked out of England, and managed to create the Sea Org, and get back into the USA.

Whether one likes it or not, that's what the bastard did. As a result, the fucker believed his shit and thought he could change the world. One has to give him credit for that, and I don't mean that in a good way, it's just amazing to me. Now people have said it's hypnosis, etc. But I think it's Dean Wilbur rhetoric at the core of it all.
 

mimsey borogrove

Well-known member
I thought that Dianetics was Sarah's concoction, and not too long after the release of DMSMH Hubbard was getting Nitrous Oxide during a dental procedure, and had revelations explaining everything. Possibly he invented Scientology as an attempt to regain that state of awareness. I don't deny he was in it for the money, but how do you explain his solo auditing for years and years till the very end?

Look at the whole rehab tech, or the buttons on the correction lists about trying to regain former states, wins. Personal experience on his part?

Look what states Nitrous Oxide produces:

The Nitrous Oxide Philosopher
Do drugs make religious experience possible? They did for James and for other philosopher-mystics of his day. James's experiments with psychoactive drugs raise difficult questions about belief and its conditions

This experience, which in James's words involved "the strongest emotion" he had ever had, remained with him throughout his life. In 1882 he first described his experiments with the drug; in 1898 he published an article titled "Consciousness Under Nitrous Oxide" in the Psychological Review ; in 1902 he recounted the experience in his greatest work, The Varieties of Religious Experience ; and in 1910, in the last essay he completed, he implied that nitrous oxide had had an abiding influence on his thinking.

When the drug wore off, James found that his mystical insights had disappeared. What remained were incomprehensible words--"tattered fragments" that seemed like "meaningless drivel." Being a philosophical visionary rather than a garden-variety recreational drug user, however, James was not inclined to let his sober consciousness have the final say. On the contrary, he took his experiences with nitrous oxide as evidence that human life was more richly varied than he had previously (and soberly) imagined.

"Some years ago," he wrote in Varieties , I myself made some observations on . . . nitrous oxide intoxication, and reported them in print. One conclusion was forced upon my mind at that time, and my impression of its truth has ever since remained unshaken. It is that our normal waking consciousness, rational consciousness as we call it, is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about it, parted from it by the filmiest of screens, there lie potential forms of consciousness entirely different.

 

Riddick

I clap to no man
Can you show us anything from Hubbard's private writings, such as his 1938 Skipper letter re. Excalibur, or his late 1946/early 1947 Affirmations, where Hubbard expressed a desire to free man?



Is regarding the e-meter as a truth detector also rhetoric?



We still don't know what Hubbard meant by "he failed." Failed at what? Hubbard's father lived to be 89. His son was sickly and feeble at 74. He saw himself as a wanted man - on the run, in hiding. He knew he had a giant unpaid tax bill to the IRS. He was subject to periods of depression.

Sarge, naively, thought Hubbard's publicly stated aims were has real aims.

You seem to assume that too.
I tried to show them in the Heinlein/Campbell letters. You can read them.

The original e-meter was the Volney Emeter, which had scales for Tone or emotions. It wasn't used as a lie detector, but as a emotional response to a question with associated Tone, or emotion, think Hubbards Tone Scale, per the level on the knob, you can say it's a quack machine, which I say it is. Hubbard globbed onto it because it showed proof, or logos, but in the end, not true.

What Hubbard meant by he failed is exactly that. Sarge failed for finally telling the truth was because he was a chicken shit for not telling what Hubbard told him in the beginning of his death.
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
I tried to show them in the Heinlein/Campbell letters. You can read them.

The original e-meter was the Volney Emeter, which had scales for Tone or emotions. It wasn't used as a lie detector, but as a emotional response to a question with associated Tone, or emotion, think Hubbards Tone Scale, per the level on the knob, you can say it's a quack machine, which I say it is. Hubbard globbed onto it because it showed proof, or logos, but in the end, not true.

What Hubbard meant by he failed is exactly that. Sarge failed for finally telling the truth was because he was a chicken shit for not telling what Hubbard told him in the beginning of his death.
If you recall, HUbbard said
The pen is mightier than the sword
 

Veda

Well-known member
I tried to show them in the Heinlein/Campbell letters. You can read them.

The original e-meter was the Volney Emeter, which had scales for Tone or emotions. It wasn't used as a lie detector, but as a emotional response to a question with associated Tone, or emotion, think Hubbards Tone Scale, per the level on the knob, you can say it's a quack machine, which I say it is. Hubbard globbed onto it because it showed proof, or logos, but in the end, not true.

What Hubbard meant by he failed is exactly that. Sarge failed for finally telling the truth was because he was a chicken shit for not telling what Hubbard told him in the beginning of his death.
In a Sad Tail (sic) of PDH, from around 1960, Hubbard ridiculed Scientologists who thought that a read on the question, "Have you been PDHed?" meant that Scientologists had been PDHed. (People checking others with the question, "Have you been PDHed?" got out of control, and created confusion in orgs and reduced income.)

We don't know what Hubbard meant when he said he failed.
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
In a Sad Tail (sic) of PDH, from around 1960, Hubbard ridiculed Scientologists who thought that a read on the question, "Have you been PDHed?" meant that Scientologists had been PDHed. (People checking others with the question, "Have you been PDHed?" got out of control, and created confusion in orgs and reduced income.)

We don't know what Hubbard meant when he said he failed.
It's pretty clear to me. My wife has no OT abilities, nor clear abilities. Plus I know lots of other so called OT's, not one, really. That's my observation, not some words of interpretation.
 
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