The Knowledge Illusion

[La La Lou Lou]

The problem with socialism is that it self destructs after a while.

In socialism, the "safety net" has to be constructed with funds taken from higher income people. This creates an incentive for them to go elsewhere, unless (like the USSR and East Germany did) you put up walls to keep them in.

Meanwhile, the unproductive people of the world will be trying to migrate to the places with the best benefits, unless you take measures to keep them out (like Trump is trying to do).

Eventually you have more consumers than producers, and things collapse. Like Venezuela.
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I don't think people from third world countries are unproductive. they might have to work day and night just to get the air fare to go somewhere else. Their problem is that they get insufficient pay for their production. Not because of socialism but because of being used by factory owners and not being paid enough. They are the victims of market forces, capitalism not socialism.

Again you using Russia and East Germany to illustrate Socialism, Communism, not socialism.

Ask the many Americans who now live in the EU including the UK, they are very very happy to be here where the system is a bit socialist. Where they get operations without becoming bankrupt.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Publicly ownership (meaning government ownership) - or, more importantly, government control - of the means of production is the definition and the goal of socialism. If the government comes to control the health industry in the USA, that is, who can deliver what services, at what price, to whom, when --- that is socialism of the health care industry. That is not socialism of the steel industry or any other industry (yet).

But, just because it isn't government control of every means of production (yet) doesn't mean it isn't, of itself, socialism of the health care industry.

It isn't all or nothing, and that isn't how it works in a democracy. "Democratic socialism" means that, step by step, voters "voluntarily" give control and/or ownership of the means of production to the government.

The good side of democratic socialism is that, once the voters realize what a disaster socialism is, they can vote it back out -- like they have in Denmark and other countries.

So if it's creeping socialism, after decades of post war socialism how come we don't have a Europe of communist countries? We have national health services because it works, and works well. Health care in the USA is the most expensive health care in the world. That's the effect of market forces. Not all Americans can afford health care and people do die without treatment for treatable illnesses. Currently in the UK we have a conservative government underfunding the health service, we also have many doctors and nurses leaving the UK to return to the EU because of Brexit, the health service is being made to fail so that it can be sold off.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

You assume that old pensioners would be the people whose benefits I would cut, because that is the scare tactic the Left uses.

Although I would tell the poor: "I'm sorry you are poor. Don't compound the issue by having kids you cannot feed without needing me bail you out. The way you get out of poverty is to stay in school, don't have kids you can't feed, get a job, find a good guy to marry, THEN think about having kids".

I would also tell college students "How about you either study something that you can actually make a living at, or finance your own education without putting taxpayers on the hook?"

Your college students have their education paid for?

Why pay any benefits I thought you wouldn't do anything that wasn't market forces?

Looking after the vulnerable is something charities should do, or the state?

Look, over here we work all our lives and pay into a pot, that pays our pensions, it pays for our health care and it pays for periods when we are out of work. I am happy with that. We have an ageing population so we need immigrants to come and pay taxes to keep the tax pot full, and immigrants do do that.

 

[Enthetan]

Your college students have their education paid for?

We have government grants. We also have government-guaranteed student loans. I was referring to the latter.

What happens is, if the student is unable to pay the loan, the government eats the loan. We appear to have students who take out educational loans, then walk away from them because they don't make enough money to pay them.

 

[Enthetan]

Look, over here we work all our lives and pay into a pot, that pays our pensions, it pays for our health care and it pays for periods when we are out of work. I am happy with that.

We have that too. We call ours "social security".

In addition, people can privately invest part of their salaries tax-free, and use that upon retirement to supplement social security.

We have an ageing population so we need immigrants to come and pay taxes to keep the tax pot full, and immigrants do do that.

That only works when you import young, high-skill immigrants who actually produce and pay taxes.

When you import too many low-skill immigrants who live on welfare instead of working, then your system collapses sooner.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

We have that too. We call ours "social security".

In addition, people can privately invest part of their salaries tax-free, and use that upon retirement to supplement social security.



That only works when you import young, high-skill immigrants who actually produce and pay taxes.

When you import too many low-skill immigrants who live on welfare instead of working, then your system collapses sooner.

Not so...
In my personal experience , the EU workers I worked with worked hard, and took on a lot of overtime, they were not especially skilled office workers. Some were highly educated though. There were also many thousands of low skilled workers picking our fruit and veg. They still earned enough to pay taxes and did.

NHS boosted by EU migrants who pay more tax than Brits, report finds

The government study found that EU migrants contribute £2,300 more to Britain per year than UK-born workers.

metro.co.uk

 

[cleared cannibal]

So, what do you do ? Are you going to learn enough to diagnose and treat cancer ? To repair a car ? To plan policies for a government ? To create a just legal system ? To decide every question on every issue ? No one lives long enough to even try.

If something breaks,anything, is your first inclination to fix it or call someone to fix it for you?

If you said fix it you are more of a take charge independent type person less easily influenced. i personally don't get a lot of satisfaction by reading others thoughts and philosophy. I do get a release as a Scn might put it when I come up with the solution by my self without imput from others. Takes much confront, no one to blame but yourself for the failures.T he use of experts is often a passing of the buck so to speak. I feel there are too many so called experts and it is gradually making man kind helpless. This applies to the physical as well as the spiritual.

I know what I am talking about because I f--- up a lot of things over the years trying to fix them but it has been worth it to me. One thing I didn't f---up is my mind. Scn did that and it took myself to get out of it. Others did help esp here but it was me that did it maybe with the help of god.

 

[Enthetan]

Not so...
In my personal experience , the EU workers I worked with worked hard, and took on a lot of overtime, they were not especially skilled office workers. Some were highly educated though. There were also many thousands of low skilled workers picking our fruit and veg. They still earned enough to pay taxes and did.

NHS boosted by EU migrants who pay more tax than Brits, report finds

The government study found that EU migrants contribute £2,300 more to Britain per year than UK-born workers.

metro.co.uk

Oh, I'm sure they were. I'm not talking about Eastern Europeans who come to UK as EU citizens.

I'm mostly talking about Third World "refugees" and other unskilled, unemployable, non-European migrants.

Also, it doesn't matter if they pay some taxes. What matters is whether they pay more taxes than they consume in social benefits.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Oh, I'm sure they were. I'm not talking about Eastern Europeans who come to UK as EU citizens.

I'm mostly talking about Third World "refugees" and other unskilled, unemployable, non-European migrants.

Also, it doesn't matter if they pay some taxes. What matters is whether they pay more taxes than they consume in social benefits.

I certainly don't personally know any non EU immigrants on benefits. I know a lot of asylum seekers who are not allowed to work until they get their leave to remain. At that point they are always on benefits while they get a job, but all but one I know do get work. The one who didn't at least last time I saw him had basically been destroyed by 10 years of waiting to get his refugee status, and being unable to work for that amount of time, he was not able to concentrate on any job last I knew. I have not seen him for about three years though, maybe he is working now, I hope so, he had been a hard working nurse before coming to the UK.

Despite what you hear the benefits in the UK are not generous. Anyone who wants to live without a job has to prove they are applying for work pretty much full time. You don't get benefits until you become a citizen, minimum 5 years years, and anyway the amount is so low that many people go to food banks to get food. The trouble here not people not working, it's companies paying less than a living wage. Most social security payments are paid to workers not the jobless.

On my street I would say that most are immigrants or were the children of immigrants. They all seem to go to work apart from the elderly ones. Asians generally do work or have small businesses.

 

[Bill]

So if it's creeping socialism, after decades of post war socialism how come we don't have a Europe of communist countries?

Who knows? I suspect it's a complex subject. But, as I said, it appears the Nordic countries moved toward socialism, found it harmful and moved back toward market driven economy. Perhaps that's the mechanism.

We have national health services because it works, and works well. Health care in the USA is the most expensive health care in the world. That's the effect of market forces. Not all Americans can afford health care and people do die without treatment for treatable illnesses. Currently in the UK we have a conservative government underfunding the health service, we also have many doctors and nurses leaving the UK to return to the EU because of Brexit, the health service is being made to fail so that it can be sold off.

Interesting take on national health care systems: Comparing International Health Care Systems (PBS)

While I haven't studied the subject very thoroughly, I know that Americans go to Canada for prescription drugs and Canadians go to the USA for what health care they can't get in Canada.

 

[programmer_guy]

<snip>

While I haven't studied the subject very thoroughly, I know that Americans go to Canada for prescription drugs and Canadians go to the USA for what health care they can't get in Canada.

Also, many times Canadians go to the USA because the waiting time is far too long in Canada.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Who knows? I suspect it's a complex subject. But, as I said, it appears the Nordic countries moved toward socialism, found it harmful and moved back toward market driven economy. Perhaps that's the mechanism.

Interesting take on national health care systems: Comparing International Health Care Systems (PBS)

While I haven't studied the subject very thoroughly, I know that Americans go to Canada for prescription drugs and Canadians go to the USA for what health care they can't get in Canada.

Perhaps European countries just like being mildly socialist. It is very comfortable. WE care for society as a whole as well as for individuals it's a good balance. Nordic countries are still very much more socialist than capitalist. People do give a shit about their society. The UK divides down the middle, some very rich people are very happy to avoid paying taxes because they don't feel that they belong to a society and keep their wealth off shore, while many others pay their taxes and belong.

The comparison of health care systems is interesting. Here in Europe it is not an industry, it is not a money making concern, it is a service, it is delivered in the majority by people who are motivated by a sense of duty, the hours are long and the stress can be huge, but the reward is seeing people getting better, or at least being more comfortable. I have enormous respect as do all Brits for the staff of the National Health Service.

 

[stratty]

<snip>
The comparison of health care systems is interesting. Here in Europe it is not an industry, it is not a money making concern, it is a service, it is delivered in the majority by people who are motivated by a sense of duty, the hours are long and the stress can be huge, but the reward is seeing people getting better, or at least being more comfortable. I have enormous respect as do all Brits for the staff of the National Health Service.

I've been fortunate enough over the course of my life not to have needed to seek the assistance of the NHS very much, and while generally one can get a bit cynical about people as a whole and see life as pretty much a simple rat race, when I finally did need the help of the NHS the experience was almost enough to resore my faith in humanity. Last year I had to go into hospital for the first time in my life, and the treatment I got was absolutely awesome! That, and the third movement of Bach's piano concerto in D minor shows me there is still hope for the human race and it's not all bad.

 

[stratty]

I've just been listening to Corbyn making a live speech on the Beeb @La La Lou Lou. He's just said that there are now more pensioners living in poverty (inferring that this is the fault of the conservatives) than ever before.

I am a pensioner. My rent is probably more than someone living in a council flat since I rent from a private landlord. My housing benefit covers most of my rent, but I still have to pay £80 per month out of my pension credit to the owner of the property to cover the shortfall.

I get about £170 from the state per week to live on. My weekly food bill comes to about £40. I don't order in bottles of champagne or eat much smoked salmon, so my food bill is quite modest.

I've just received my £140 annual warm home heating allowance, and in a few more weeks I'll be getting my £200 winter fuel payment. What I'm trying to say is I just cannot understand for the life of me how any pensioner living on benefits is living in poverty or has to go to food banks. (If I was a real cheat I could lessen my food bill even more by going to the food bank and pleading poverty, but I wouldn't dream of doing that).

I'm also not in the best of health and if I wished to do so there are a whole span of additional financial benefits I could be claiming.

My mattress becomes ever lumpier the older I get under the avalanche of cash the state throws at me, and sometimes I just wish it would stop. If you're living on benefits and you blow your income betting on your smartphone casino app, drinking 10 cans of Carlsberg Lager every day and ordering in KFC chicken in a bucket every night you are going to be in the shit, but that's all your own fault!

 

[Enthetan]

Also, many times Canadians go to the USA because the waiting time is far too long in Canada.

Fundamental economics: when desire for a product exceeds supply, there are only two main ways of distributing the limited product:

(A) raising the price until the number of people who want it at that price matches the supply, or​

(B) rationing it, typically using criteria set by bureaucrats as to who gets some.​

When (A) is used, it provides an incentive for more suppliers to enter the market.

When (B) is used, it provides an incentive for bureaucrats to rig the system so that their friends, and people who hand them money under the table, get the limited supply.

 

[Zertel]

Interesting and informative discussion about political and economic systems and healthcare.

Regarding "stable data" previously mentioned, probably the most significant one in scientology is past lives. Most scientologists look at, experience or imagine past lives, take your pick. Elron obsessed on the past "going back" ever further in uncountable numbers of years apparently attempting to discover the beginning of existence, assuming such a thing exists. (What existed before existence?)

Current Hubbardology rests at Elron's description of life on earth (Teegeeack) due to intergalactic conflicts. Be that as it may regarding the beliefs of scientologists, when is the beginning of an individual's self conscious awareness? Scientifically speaking one might say at conception or at birth although most people would only recall a first memory as an infant or a toddler. Failure at scientology has led many people toward scientific materialism. Mr. Hubbard opened up a can of worms for many people.

 

[stratty]

Interesting and informative discussion about political and economic systems and healthcare.

<snip>Failure at scientology has led many people toward scientific materialism. Mr. Hubbard opened up a can of worms for many people.

Well, you've nailed it there as far as I'm concerned matey!

 

[cleared cannibal]

Interesting and informative discussion about political and economic systems and healthcare.

Regarding "stable data" previously mentioned, probably the most significant one in scientology is past lives. Most scientologists look at, experience or imagine past lives, take your pick. Elron obsessed on the past "going back" ever further in uncountable numbers of years apparently attempting to discover the beginning of existence, assuming such a thing exists. (What existed before existence?)

Current Hubbardology rests at Elron's description of life on earth (Teegeeack) due to intergalactic conflicts. Be that as it may regarding the beliefs of scientologists, when is the beginning of an individual's self conscious awareness? Scientifically speaking one might say at conception or at birth although most people would only recall a first memory as an infant or a toddler. Failure at scientology has led many people toward scientific materialism. Mr. Hubbard opened up a can of worms for many people.

I have posted before that I think one of Scn worst effects on people is the tendency of an Ex to totally renounce that there is a spirit.

 

[stratty]

I have posted before that I think one of Scn worst effects on people is the tendency of an Ex to totally renounce that there is a spirit.

On the contrary, I think it's one of the best effects. The day that you can show me where I can find the slightest scintilla of proof that there is a spirit maybe I'll change my mind, but as it is I think it's just a monumental delusion - sorry.

 

[cleared cannibal]

On the contrary, I think it's one of the best effects. The day that you can show me where I can find the slightest scintilla of proof that there is a spirit maybe I'll change my mind, but as it is I think it's just a monumental delusion - sorry.

Perhaps I should have included it is bad for those people who do believe but are in cognitive dissonance because they think they shouldn't because of their experience with Scn. I have no issue with someone who is comfortable in not believing in one.