The Advanced Organization of the Great Plains announces a new social media platform for Independent Scientologists: Independent Social Scientologists

Veda

Well-known member
I actually agree that, for example, Tony Ortega's recent story about the Scientologist who jumped from the building was crude, distasteful and potentially hurtful. (I say "potentially" only because I can't imagine that any of the deceased's family members will learn of, much less read, the story; it would be a different matter if he wrote for a publication with a general audience like The Daily Beast.) I would not have written the story in the same manner. Having said that, I certainly don't agree that Tony is a "SP."

I am an ex-Scientologist. I no longer believe in SP doctrine. I did, however, certainly study it at great length when I was in Scientology. One thing that I recall, and just confirmed, is that Scientology teaches:

* * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *.

The identification or labeling of an antisocial personality cannot be done honestly and accurately unless one also, in the same examination of the person, reviews the positive side of his life.

All persons under stress can react with momentary flashes of antisocial conduct. This does not make them antisocial personalities.

The true antisocial person has a majority of antisocial characteristics.

The social personality has a majority of social characteristics.

Thus, one must examine the good with the bad before one can truly label the antisocial or the social.

In reviewing such matters, very broad testimony and evidence are best. One or two isolated instances determine nothing. One should search all twelve social and all twelve antisocial characteristics and decide on the basis of actual evidence, not opinion.

* * * * * END EXCERPT * * * * *.
To be realistic, the reasonable sounding explanation above is the public statement. Deeper into Scientology, it changes somewhat.

As noted by Hubbard's editor and confidante, John Sanborn, who was standing next to Hubbard when the first SP Declare was issued, it was a dictatorial system used to instill fear, to assert control and domination, and to stigmatize.


And no, that is not an invitation to discuss and debate twelve characteristics for Tony. :) That would not be useful, and indeed would also be crude, distasteful and hurtful. We will have to agree to disagree. I just wanted to point out that "isolated instances determine nothing" and "one must examine the good with the bad."

I completely understand about the OT and NOTs material. That is why I warned you. I didn't want to refer you to a thread and cause you to see material of that nature that you weren't ready to see or didn't want to see.

/
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Again, INTENTION.

Ridiculous. You quite obviously don't have the "knowingness" powers that you imagine--to be able to divine other human's evil purposes ("intention"). Here, let me scientifically prove it to you:

As you merrily and madly keep denouncing and declaring people who disagree with you as "SPs", you are entirely missing the punchline to the joke. To wit, armed with encyclopedias filled with "SP/PTS TECHNOLOGY", Scientologists and Indie Scientologists and Ron's Org Scientologists are entirely clueless and oblivious that per their own tech, Scientology's two (2) supreme gurus (Hubbard/Miscavige) are two (2) of the most wicked pathological "1.1" liars, criminals, con men and "SPs" that ever lived.

However it's not all bad. There is a very "uptone" part to the story--since 98% of all Scientologists (whether COS, Indie or Ron's Org) eventually figure out the joke's punchline and escape the cult. Good luck on figuring out Hubbard's hoax and who the "SPs" actually are.

Clue: It's not the "psychs".

Clue: If Ron were here, he'd declare YOU to be an SP (for suppressively "squirreling" the tech and supporting "SP" groups like Indie Scn and Ron's Org Scn).

Clue: Still want others to apply Scientology tech? LOL

.
 
Last edited:

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
I could share the specifics if you like, the history, personal experiences, my friends' experiences, the statistics, etc. I was simplifying, assuming ones who were in the COS knew all about the industry.
Funny that just over five years ago I would have called you and the group that you are in as squirrel. Over ten years ago and I would have railed against you and the group that you are now part of as being harmful to beings because of the level of training and lack of a tech hierarchy, etc. That is now not the case.

Also funny that I would have a conversation with someone where I would find myself standing up for psychiatry, in some form or another.

I am at least three times your age, maybe more. That doesn't mean I know better, that isn't what I am saying. I find myself having this conversation with you with these interesting circumstances. I see the fervor with which you defend the things that you find dear and valuable to you.

What I know of psychiatry has to do with some research, and it also has to do what I have been told by lrh over the last thirty years. I don't know much about it, really. I have read more and more in the last few years since leaving scn.

Are you willing to bet your life on your understanding based on the teachings of lrh? I bet that you are.

I have found that a lot of people that I think are awesome are also wrong about some things. I don't think I know anyone that has all of life taped. Maybe you do, I haven't seen that yet.

What I think is another thing weird about life is the difference between being certain and being correct. Two different things.

I don't consider the time that I spent in scn on staff and as public as a waste of my time. It would be pretty weird to say that half of my life was wasted, it wasn't.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.
/

This thread reminds me of:

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A "SAVED" SCIENTOLOGIST ATTEMPTS TO
"SAVE" ANYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH THEIR "SAVIOR'S" TECH.

(From a Rolling Stone interview with the celebrity savior Tom Cruise):
Who are those people that say those things?” Cruise asks when I bring it up over lunch one day. “Because I promise you, it isn’t everybody. But I look at those people and I say, ‘Bring it. I’m a Scientologist, man. What do you want to know?” I don’t mind answering questions.”​
He lists some of Scientology’s selling points: its drug-abuse, prison-rehabilitation and education programs. Some people, well, if they don’t like Scientology, well, then, fuck you!” He rises from the table. “Really!” He points an angry finger at the imaginary enemy. “Fuck you!His face reddens.Period!
SUMMARY: COS, Indie and Ron's Org Scientologists don't mind answering questions. If you don't agree with everything they say, the answer is always "Fuck You!" and/or "You're an SP!"

.
 
Last edited:

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Funny that just over five years ago I would have called you and the group that you are in as squirrel. Over ten years ago and I would have railed against you and the group that you are now part of as being harmful to beings because of the level of training and lack of a tech hierarchy, etc. That is now not the case.

Also funny that I would have a conversation with someone where I would find myself standing up for psychiatry, in some form or another.

I am at least three times your age, maybe more. That doesn't mean I know better, that isn't what I am saying. I find myself having this conversation with you with these interesting circumstances. I see the fervor with which you defend the things that you find dear and valuable to you.

What I know of psychiatry has to do with some research, and it also has to do what I have been told by lrh over the last thirty years. I don't know much about it, really. I have read more and more in the last few years since leaving scn.

Are you willing to bet your life on your understanding based on the teachings of lrh? I bet that you are.

I have found that a lot of people that I think are awesome are also wrong about some things. I don't think I know anyone that has all of life taped. Maybe you do, I haven't seen that yet.

What I think is another thing weird about life is the difference between being certain and being correct. Two different things.

I don't consider the time that I spent in scn on staff and as public as a waste of my time. It would be pretty weird to say that half of my life was wasted, it wasn't.
.

You're overthinking this. You should study Dr. Hubbard's works more, because he has figured out the answer to all questions and problems in life. It's always super-simple and it's always one of these:

1. MU's​
2. Psychs​
3. Bank (dramatization)​
4. SPs (evil beings with evil purposes)​
5. Out Ethics​

If a being has a particularly resistive problem and they cannot figure out which of the above items is causing it, it's safe to just assume that it's "SPs" that are making the being confused.

.
 

Harold#1

A VERY STABLE SUPER GENIUS!!
That's your opinion, based on your reactivity.

My opinion is based off of evaluated data. Is it necessary, to shame anyone, regardless of race, religion, creed, or choice, on them getting sick or them killing themselves? Your hatred blinds you to the possibility that maybe the people who you support are shitty people. Good has come from LRH for me, I've improved in so many ways, I have so many things to be thankful for. There is no comparison. Shaming anyone for either of these two headlines is just shitty, and the fact that you even think you can justify it/him tells me a lot about who you are as a person.

Consider the families of those people. Consider the suffering of a cancer victim, consider the suffering of those who loved them. Consider the complete lack of willpower by the suicide victim to continue on in this world, consider they may have been incredibly suppressed before doing what they did. Consider anything else but YOUR need to be right when supporting someone who takes jabs at people, living breathing human beings, is completely a shitty thing to do.

As for covertly hostile, in many of his posts he attempts to "feel sorry" - let me be clear, Tony doesn't give a shit about any Scientologist whether they're dying or dead or not. He is only interested in stories.

I'd be more respectful to a journalist who was a Scientologist before and gave it a shot, than I would for someone who saw a good story and ran with it for years to make money.
What is your opinion of LRH taking his third child, Alexis, with his second wife, Sara, from her, and then taking the child to Cuba, then calling Sara and telling her he cut their child in to pieces and threw them in a river?
 
Last edited:

Bill

Well-known member
As for if me and Tony are similar - absolutely not. As I said earlier, the difference is intention. Intention is everything. When he titles something "Scientologists, gullible? ..." it's covertly hostile. I am outright saying SOME independents are "reasonable" (and that I couldn't believe SOME fell for it).
I believe you are an excellent example of a Scientologist.

As far as I can tell, you believe:
  • You are superior to "humanoids" because you have Hubbard's answers to everything.
  • You have "gone up the Bridge" and attained states far superior to others.
  • You have the ability to "read minds" and determine "intention" because of Scientology.
And, because of your superiority, you have the right to judge others and decide right and wrong.

As I did.

It makes Scientologists completely close-minded and solid. Ironitcally, this makes them the opposite of superior. They are subservient to Hubbard-thnk, black-and-white, closed.

Unable to even judge themselves.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
What is you opinion of LRH taking his third child, Alexis, with his second wife, Sara, from her, and then taking the child to Cuba, calling Sara and telling her he cut their child in to pieces and threw them in a river?
.

Excellent question. I asked an OT VIII about that just now. . .
.

Originally Posted by William B.
That's an easy question to answer. Ron stated during a filmed interview that he "...never had a 2nd wife".

ML,
Billy Blowdown
OT 8 - Class 8 - Power on 8 dynamics
.
 

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
.

You're overthinking this. You should study Dr. Hubbard's works more, because he has figured out the answer to all questions and problems in life. It's always super-simple and it's always one of these:

1. MU's​
2. Psychs​
3. Bank (dramatization)​
4. SPs (evil beings with evil purposes)​
5. Out Ethics​

If a being has a particularly resistive problem and they cannot figure out which of the above items is causing it, it's safe to just assume that it's "SPs" that are making the being confused.

.
I forgot how actually easy that made life!!!! Thanks for that. Here I have been trying to explain to myself that the current scene in America has just restimulated my own overts!! Oh, and everyone that doesn't understand must have mu's. I can spot check like a mofo, and I know that I can look at a page and find the low percentage word or idiom and nail you with it!!! Believe me, I knew my shit. I can still verbatim the ten points. Don't try me. I can write one helluva chit.

WTF. I was called an SP and it upset me. A guy I knew blew and said I was an SP, that was eons ago.

Oh, and how I miss the days when a protest outside the org meant tech staff does an OW write up.

On second thought...
 
Last edited:

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.
I forgot how actually easy that made life!!!! Thanks for that. Here I have been trying to explain to myself that the current scene in America has just restimulated my own overts!! Oh, and everyone that doesn't understand must have mu's. I can spot check like a mofo, and I know that I can look at a page and find the low percentage word or idiom and nail you with it!!! Believe me, I knew my shit. I can still verbatim the ten points. Don't try me. I can write one helluva chit. WTF. I was called an SP and it upset me. A guy I knew blew and said I was an SP, that was ions ago. Oh, and how I miss the days when a protest outside the org meant tech staff does an OW write up.



Funny post!

Now about that last line. I have no idea and thus must ask you. Did that ever really happen? People protesting outside the org meant that tech staff did an OW write up?

Honestly, I cannot even guess if that is true or whether it's brilliant satire. LOL LOL LOL LOL.

.
 

Dotey OT

Dis-Membered
.



Funny post!

Now about that last line. I have no idea and thus must ask you. Did that ever really happen? People protesting outside the org meant that tech staff did an OW write up?

Honestly, I cannot even guess if that is true or whether it's brilliant satire. LOL LOL LOL LOL.

.
I wish that it was my brilliance, however it's true. You could have a game show called "Did That Really Happen??" and have people guess whether or not something was true. Yes indeed, that was the handling, or one of the handlings for protesters. Yes it's true.
 
Top