People who go nuts after having been declared a Suppressive Person

Reyne Mayer

Pansexual Revolutionary
it seems like a suprisingly high toll, or level of adverse outcomes, for what is in the end a relatively small organization. and while some cases might have happened anyway, i get the impression that especially in scientology's early heyday, they got away with blaming a lot of what was mostly their fault on hippies doing drugs, and so on.

i recently ran across a bunch of them here, though i wish the lists were better organized and categorized:

 

Hatshepsut

Well-known member
There are many such people, but it's ignored or covered up.

One minute the person is the elite of the elite. The next moment he's a despised outcast.

This often causes mental instability, and has caused murders and suicides.

These are amongst the forgotten casualties of Scientology.


I'd seen that happen at Flag and in Miami back in the early 80s with the infamous List One R/Sers. Ron was ferreting out why income was lost.

Two of the highest producing, most ARC individuals I knew went nuts, temporarily. One was the ED of the Miami Org on Giralda Ave. The other was a 19 yr old gal who had given up making fancy copper music boxes to join the SO. These people just introverted and spun in from the wrong indications. It was just pitiful watching it.

If it's true that Earth is dumping ground for condemned criminals, bunched together and stigmatized, you can bet you're restimulating any with such nonsense. The charge doesn't feel natural and I saw some messy auditing. Whoever was calling off items from List One, must've zeroed in on anything at all. I was called out for having evil intentions toward Diana Hubbard. Duh. Luckily I was the only paying public at my Org and had so karma with her. They fixed the read for me.

In another instance, I went around restraining myself so I wouldn't hurt anyone, and kept accidentally tripping, falling or burning the surface of my skin. The insanity lasted a year when I realized that if I was perfectly 'willing to be bad' I would no longer try to kill or STOP myself...... The stable datum back then was insanity was basically an evil purpose and these were cluster's?

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Introspection was the result of List One. Some got suicidal, especially staff, when everyone on tech lines knew if you were being handled for a rock slam. You were an enemy of Scn, suspect of being a possible implanter. I trained myself to survive the freewheels and be willing to experience the sensation of being very bad. This turns off the effort to STOP and lets the insanity cool off.
 
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Chuck J.

Well-known member
I remember this guy. circa early '83, the beginning of my cult misadventure at S.C. Was a really nice guy. Another example of the cult kicking its faithful to the curb.

"Mark Chambers, the KTL supe at Stevens Creek, who started having bad health problems, ended up in a wheelchair, probably after a double amputation as his circulation was horrible from years of smoking and just bad health habits–perhaps diabetes. He kept on as a staff member, but the ED got him offloaded as the idea of a ‘cripple DB’ in the org on staff was completely out-PR to her. She was pretty brutal about that sort of thing and had made sarcastic comments about fixing the org’s elevator, because only downstats would need it–and that was not worth putting money into. He died after he was kicked off of staff. To make matters worse a few years prior to this, his wife really went off the deep end mentally. Many suicide watches and handlings with the DSA, and last I heard she was still in terrible shape. She also had been a staff member for years."


Also a few others I remember seeing around PAC.
 
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Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
it seems like a suprisingly high toll, or level of adverse outcomes, for what is in the end a relatively small organization. and while some cases might have happened anyway, i get the impression that especially in scientology's early heyday, they got away with blaming a lot of what was mostly their fault on hippies doing drugs, and so on.

i recently ran across a bunch of them here, though i wish the lists were better organized and categorized:

You need to understand how enveloping Scientology can be. You spend years (for some born-in staff, your whole lifetime) interacting with, living with, and only being close with, other Scientologists.

Then you get toss out on the street. No money. No job experience that you can safely admit to. No friends.

It can be a serious mind-fuck.
 

Reyne Mayer

Pansexual Revolutionary
thanks for the reminder of that, too.

i tend to think first of all the people recruited, some of them mentally unstable to begin with, who had enough of an involvement with scientology to get mind-fucked, such as being subject to some of the processes that can trigger psychosis (even the TRs probably could, in someone vulnerable). quite a few of those on that list seem to have been in just their first or second year of involvement.

and yes, those who end up entangled longer face unusual things that could stress even someone pretty stable. not to mention of course those born into it....
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
thanks for the reminder of that, too.

i tend to think first of all the people recruited, some of them mentally unstable to begin with, who had enough of an involvement with scientology to get mind-fucked, such as being subject to some of the processes that can trigger psychosis (even the TRs probably could, in someone vulnerable). quite a few of those on that list seem to have been in just their first or second year of involvement.

and yes, those who end up entangled longer face unusual things that could stress even someone pretty stable. not to mention of course those born into it....
the recruiting process was done with exact measures, it was supposed to weed out mentally unstable people thru PTS/SP tech and on the meter. Plus, the whole organization from Missions to Class 5 orgs and Sea Org, thru emeter checks and questions and answers was supposed to weed out unstable people, afterall, Hubbard's target was making the able more able. One can go in mentally stable, and then leave mentally unstable. There are many examples like the so called First Clear, John Mcmaster.
 

Hatshepsut

Well-known member
Yuh, and Scientologists were conditioned to root around in their mental closets for undisclosed ghosts....and where the bodies were buried. Most outsiders think their current identity is jus fine, and inviolable.

I often wondered, into which toyboxes we made our spiritual tentacles extend in session. How is it so many came up with things NOT their own, so early as Scientologist. The lists are styled to query for certain heavy charges, so dutifully, we reached all the waaaaaay out there to find.......anything. We were also conditioned to think that getting overts off meant resurgence and healing. When? At what point during searching for evil deeds done ?

Not saying such a rest point could never happen, but practitioners didn't often get there. Maybe the False Purpose Rundown finally gave some insights without make wrongs.

I know I had lived in the century just before and just after, the Christ story. And I had a remembered once, where some focus of attention was. It seems to me now that this was a rare time of ascending adepts, gone out and come back with insights. And one was about the falsity of karma which was launched upon the spirit by heavy forces, man remained in mystery of. Mechanical ones.


Ephesians 6:12

New International Version


12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Read full chapter
Ephesians 6:12 in all English translations

I'd heard from some Ls completion that the overt/ withhold mechanism, is truly a mechanism. It's mental machinery in the unconscious, which regulates our human experience in this world. It has to do with going In to this world and agreements with others having this human experience. It's basically agreement. Maybe its' enforced with theta machinery we carry.

Being able to hold one's position in space, and being certain of basic rightness are similar things. Your viewpoint of and dimension seems strong and inviolable. Attacks at your the soft underbelly with accusations, and flashing images that you are in fact, an Evil Cause, make you wanna cancel that portal of awareness inside this matrix. To Be or Not to Be.
 
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Hatshepsut

Well-known member
I remember this guy. circa early '83, the beginning of my cult misadventure at S.C. Was a really nice guy. Another example of the cult kicking its faithful to the curb.

"Mark Chambers, the KTL supe at Stevens Creek, who started having bad health problems, ended up in a wheelchair, probably after a double amputation as his circulation was horrible from years of smoking and just bad health habits–perhaps diabetes. He kept on as a staff member, but the ED got him offloaded as the idea of a ‘cripple DB’ in the org on staff was completely out-PR to her. She was pretty brutal about that sort of thing and had made sarcastic comments about fixing the org’s elevator, because only downstats would need it–and that was not worth putting money into. He died after he was kicked off of staff. To make matters worse a few years prior to this, his wife really went off the deep end mentally. Many suicide watches and handlings with the DSA, and last I heard she was still in terrible shape. She also had been a staff member for years."


Also a few others I remember seeing around PAC.
I saw this happen to a staff member in Orlando who had ALS. He was painting the walls of the entire Org after being put into a lower condition. He was on amends. I don't know if it was the result of the paint toxins or staff poverty, but his condition deteriorated FAST. He was then, suspected of secretly being an out-ethics DB. This hurt me, as my husband was on staff, and upon our separation, he quit staff and went to Miami Org to work out of his condition and pay his freeloader debt. His spinal cord was damaged during a robbery at his wog job there, and he was made a quad for 25 yrs. Of course, there was speculating about what he'd done to 'pull it in'. No one would dare risk a transfer of karma by their inuendos though.
 

Chuck J.

Well-known member
Yuh, and Scientologists were conditioned to root around in their mental closets for undisclosed ghosts....and where the bodies were buried. Most outsiders think their current identity is jus fine, and inviolable.

I often wondered, into which toyboxes we made our spiritual tentacles extend in session. How is it so many came up with things NOT their own, so early as Scientologist. The lists are styled to query for certain heavy charges, so dutifully, we reached all the waaaaaay out there to find.......anything. We were also conditioned to think that getting overts off meant resurgence and healing. When? At what point during searching for evil deeds done ?

Not saying such a rest point could never happen, but practitioners didn't often get there. Maybe the False Purpose Rundown finally gave some insights without make wrongs.

I know I had lived in the century just before and just after, the Christ story. And I had a remembered once, where some focus of attention was. It seems to me now that this was a rare time of ascending adepts, gone out and come back with insights. And one was about the falsity of karma which was launched upon the spirit by heavy forces, man remained in mystery of. Mechanical ones.


Ephesians 6:12

New International Version


12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Read full chapter
Ephesians 6:12 in all English translations

I'd heard from some Ls completion that the overt/ withhold mechanism, is truly a mechanism. It's mental machinery in the unconscious, which regulates our human experience in this world. It has to do with going In to this world and agreements with others having this human experience. It's basically agreement. Maybe its' enforced with theta machinery we carry.

Being able to hold one's position in space, and being certain of basic rightness are similar things. Your viewpoint of and dimension seems strong and inviolable. Attacks at your the soft underbelly with accusations, and flashing images that you are in fact, an Evil Cause, make you wanna cancel that portal of awareness inside this matrix. To Be or Not to Be.
I've posted about Eckankar before. They have a name for this agreement level, Universal Mind Power or U.M.P. What others call Cosmic Consiousness. The idea is it's NOT a good thing, it's the band off "humanoid thought" and being free of it is one of their goals.

I'm not a member, but understanding their Cosmology helps me compare to the $cn. cult and other cosmologies.
 

Reyne Mayer

Pansexual Revolutionary
the recruiting process was done with exact measures, it was supposed to weed out mentally unstable people thru PTS/SP tech and on the meter. Plus, the whole organization from Missions to Class 5 orgs and Sea Org, thru emeter checks and questions and answers was supposed to weed out unstable people, afterall, Hubbard's target was making the able more able. One can go in mentally stable, and then leave mentally unstable. There are many examples like the so called First Clear, John Mcmaster.
i get the impression that evolved over time, that in $cn's heyday at the peak of the counterculture movement they were much less picky if they screened people at all (which was very profitable for LRH, as were gimmicks like 'quickie clears' introduced as the market started to contract). and then i'm guessing that after a bunch of bad outcomes they must have tightened up, just as happened more obviously and more recently with the string of ugly incidents culminating in Lisa McPherson's and Elli Perkins' deaths, followed by DM further restricting 'tech' delivery and even keeping people with any hint of instability off the Flag campus entirely.

if anyone can speak more directly to what went on in the 60s and early 70s, it would be very interesting to hear.

i certainly agree that even apparently mentally stable can go in but end up unstable.
 

Chuck J.

Well-known member
I saw this happen to a staff member in Orlando who had ALS. He was painting the walls of the entire Org after being put into a lower condition. He was on amends. I don't know if it was the result of the paint toxins or staff poverty, but his condition deteriorated FAST. He was then, suspected of secretly being an out-ethics DB. This hurt me, as my husband was on staff, and upon our separation, he quit staff and went to Miami Org to work out of his condition and pay his freeloader debt. His spinal cord was damaged during a robbery at his wog job there, and he was made a quad for 25 yrs. Of course, there was speculating about what he'd done to 'pull it in'. No one would dare risk a transfer of karma by their inuendos though.
This entire $cn. pulled it in thing....... sigh. So dumb.
I dunno if we've ever had a thread about this specifically on ESMB; it's a big subject. We should really work it over for people new to the site.

For a supposed modern "religion" that Hubbard himself called "very intellectual" this pulled it in idea really reminds me of primitive stuff, except it's in a way, even dumber.

I could understand, if using the $cn. idea of Own Universe, yeah sure nothing bad shld ever happen. But MEST Univ.? Shared playground? Sh*t happens, people ruin your sandbox, etc.

So what is $cn saying? In the shared playground nothing bad will ever happen? And if it does, it's all your fault? Seems unrealistic to me. I acknowledge the existence of other people, lol.

Yeah, you can run between the raindrops for a time, but eventually you're gonna get wet.

I could probably trace it back 47 universes ;-) and get some relief by looking at my overts, OK fine, but I doubt that's an end-all solution in the MEST Univ.
 
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programmer_guy

True ex-Scientologist
i get the impression that evolved over time, that in $cn's heyday at the peak of the counterculture movement they were much less picky if they screened people at all (which was very profitable for LRH, as were gimmicks like 'quickie clears' introduced as the market started to contract). and then i'm guessing that after a bunch of bad outcomes they must have tightened up, just as happened more obviously and more recently with the string of ugly incidents culminating in Lisa McPherson's and Elli Perkins' deaths, followed by DM further restricting 'tech' delivery and even keeping people with any hint of instability off the Flag campus entirely.

if anyone can speak more directly to what went on in the 60s and early 70s, it would be very interesting to hear.

i certainly agree that even apparently mentally stable can go in but end up unstable.
Yes, and I suggest that informative comments on this should be in categories of:
1, franchise missions
2. class 5 orgs
3. sea org
 
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Reyne Mayer

Pansexual Revolutionary
For a supposed modern "religion" that Hubbard himself called "very intellectual" this pulled it in idea really reminds me of primitive stuff, except it's in a way, even dumber.
i see it as like many of LRH's theories, something that has some validity to it but which has been over-generalized and blown far out of balance and proportion. and other gurus and groups have very similar ideas, which i think in general comes out of what might be called magical thinking.

i assume we can all see in our own lives (and maybe sometimes more easily in the lives of others) where certain behaviors or attitudes result in negative outcomes or happenings. people can fall too much into the role of being a victim, and other dysfunctions that can become self-perpetuating and even self-fulfilling prophecies.

and in some situations there is indeed power in just assuming responsibility and moving forward.

but yeah, sometimes sh*t happens, people ruin your sandbox -- or you get sick or get old, and so on. also, when you are really victimized, it can be important to hold the perpetrator accountable and not just blame yourself.

the other thing to note with leaders like LRH and their organizations, is that underlying concepts like 'pulling it in', is the functional reality of pushing blame down on to those lower in the hierarchy. did 'source' ever admit to pulling it in himself -- or was everything always the fault of others, subordinates who had failed him, SPs and conspiracies, etc?

which reminds me, in the case of Hubbard's scientology, i think it can be seen as a narcissistic set up to get people to accept, and blame themselves for, being abused. in that way it's rather like the worst of abusive initimate or domestic relationships.
 

Reyne Mayer

Pansexual Revolutionary
Yes, and I suggest that informative comments on this should be in categories of:
1, franchise missions
2. class 5 orgs
3. sea org
good point. i've noticed that exes' experiences vary significantly or even widely depending on what echelon they were at, and also at what time, plus where they were -- even at the same level and at the same time, things seem to have often been quite different, or a least very different degrees of the same, in different places.

the mention of the sea org reminds me that policies and practices regarding drug use are a sort of bellweather for scientology's attempts at weeding out the mentally unstable (though it's actually a rather poor indicator for that). the impression i have is that during the heyday they'd take anyone who wasn't currently using drugs, though someone might correct me on that. then at some point around the early 70s they started to screen for LSD use, i think as a result of Hubbard looking for scapegoats to blame for scientology's declining fortunes as the baby boomer counterculture movement waned, and recruitment and cash flow declined (and the 'tech' continued to fail to fulfill its promises). i believe it's gradually gotten stricter, though i've read that at times, perhaps even recently, they've taken people who used LSD when recruiters really wanted bodies, sometimes resorting to the subterfuge of prompting individuals to change their mind about whether they'd really taken LSD rather than some other drug.

ETA: here's a case of just that sort of a sea org recruiter's desperate attempt to find a way around reported LSD use, over at Mike Rinder's:

She asks me: “Are you SURE it was LSD you took?”

Am I sure it was LSD??? What????? Was she doubting my knowledge of what drugs I was taking? Did she think me so stupid as to take something that wasn’t even LSD? 150 times?
 
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Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
then at some point around the early 70s they started to screen for LSD use, i think as a result of Hubbard looking for scapegoats to blame for scientology's declining fortunes as the baby boomer counterculture movement waned, and recruitment and cash flow declined (and the 'tech' continued to fail to fulfill its promises)
The cynical side of me thinks it more likely that LRH decided that LSD use in particular might make someone more resistant to coercive mind control, which would be a big deal for Sea Org people.
 

Reyne Mayer

Pansexual Revolutionary
The cynical side of me thinks it more likely that LRH decided that LSD use in particular might make someone more resistant to coercive mind control, which would be a big deal for Sea Org people.
that seems plausible, though in my view Hubbard was more crudely reactive (including scapegoating) than cunningly calculating, in general.

i think if anything his fear would have been that use of psychedelics would open people to the possibility of insightful, mind-altering and enlightening experiences outside of and even more powerful than the 'tech'. and it is psychedelics, not his 'work', that is proving to have some therapeutic value including recovery from trauma.

hence also the ban on 'other practices'. and actually, i think the spread of meditation and yoga has done a lot to undercut any possible remaining appeal of scientology, offering mental and spiritual practices (and community) that are readily accessible not inordinately costly in any way -- i could imagine it might have even helped to get some people out, though i have yet to hear of any cases of that.
 

Hatshepsut

Well-known member
The cynical side of me thinks it more likely that LRH decided that LSD use in particular might make someone more resistant to coercive mind control, which would be a big deal for Sea Org people.
Hubbard thought LSD led folks to be influenced by telephathic intention, and they'd be flying monkeys for his whole track psychs. He was working on cluster busting at the time of his 'research' into LSD and it's supposed purposes. The drug was regarded as an agent in the formation of spiritual and cellular collectives. This same thinking carried forth into the OT VIII document.
 
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Hatshepsut

Well-known member

I never did the FPRD but had done the HRD. It seemed to me that the later rundowns began to direct attention at 'confusions'. It also seemed that purposes were regarded as easily 'incepted' ideas and not deeply embedded implants from the past. Projections can be composed of living beings who have absorbed ideas into themselves. These can transmigrate between members of families and groups. By the Happiness Rundown questions, It seemed that harmful interactions were the main cause of migration from one person to another. A light touch was needed to delete the phenomena.

It seemed Scientology went nuts at this same time, when a bit of sanity and civility was about to finally usher in. This is the narcissistic rage at the top, when a control structure is threatened or about to come apart.

 
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Karakorum

I tried to be a good cop in the wrong police force
I'd seen that happen at Flag and in Miami back in the early 80s with the infamous List One R/Sers. Ron was ferreting out why income was lost.
I don't really know to how many people this had happened during my time there.

In the 2000s if you got declared an SP in WUS, you were dead to everyone. Everyone would instantly disconnect and the few that would not disconnect would never admit that and would not talk to anyone about "what happened to Joe after we kicked him out". Least of all to me - an ethics gator. Nobody would talk to us about these things.

Now, we had "official CoS rumors" that everyone who left as an SP was homeless and/or criminal and/or went crazy. But you would never know if any of that was true or just typical cult-agitprop about former members.

What is more: I had access to the ethics files etc, but these were about the time the person was still inside scn. The files about what he/she did after leaving or being kicked out - that was pretty much only in the OSA archives. And Mike Rinder actually replied to my question on their podcast and confirmed that OSA's archives were totally separate from ours.

So long story short: I could find out everything about what a person did inside Scn. But once said person left/got declared... I had no way of knowing what happened to them past that point. Even more cult "compartmentalization" of information right there.
 
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