Overheard in the Freezone

Chuck J.

INTJ
Karakorum, welcome back from your road trip. Hope it was fun. Do you still have @HelluvaHoax!
on ignore, like you mentioned before? He's coming up with some really good comments about
your "Thelma cult survivor" angle.

:wow:

This is certainly one of the oddest things I've ever heard. And I've read and researched about as much
as anyone here. But I respect your right to hold that view. No one else will see it that way. Ever.

Going down this path, the next thing one could believe is that Hubbard was trying to impress Parsons
so he could succeed in his secret plan to "break up black magic in America" for the Navy. That was the
concocted GO shore story in 1969, which was printed in a major newspaper.

One could then say that Marty Rathbun [or your one-time nemesis on ESMB Mike Rinder] is a "cult survivor"
and should be looked at differently. Makes much more sense explaining how he behaved. Marty Rathbun
should be accorded a bit of "fast-flow forgiveness," being he was a cult survivor. No, Marty was a showboater,
liar and thug when he got in. Got worse later. His basic personality re-emerged in full view and control.




Footnote
Unraveling the Hubbard ball of yarn is best done by researching it as an enormous and decades long money laundering
scheme
. Money laundering is concealing the origins of money obtained illegally by passing it through a complex labyrinth
of organizations, corporations, off-shore accounts, and secret numbered accounts. By the 1970s, Hubbard personally held
accounts in Switzerland, Luxembourg, and Liechtenstein. Money was transferred from a Liberian shell corporation, the
Religious Research Foundation, through a sequence of banking transfers or specious transactions. Anyone not well versed
in anti-money laundering techniques -- and I am not -- could be easily fooled into believing a whole bunch of other things. :coolwink:

Same with David Miscviage. He's just taken it to a new level . . . to a new zenith. (Three billion counting.}

Thelma and "post-cult" survivor are just distractions, red herrings in the grand scheme of things
. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I agree. Occams Razor. Or simply the banality of evil. Calling in a bunch of mysterious stuff is not necessary.
 

freethinker

Controversial
The interesting thing is I never received any auditing on the Mars implant and it doesn't affect me either.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Post-affirmations . . .
Post-bigamous marriage to Sara, child Alexis, and a loud contentious divorce . . .
Post-bankruptcy of the first Dianetic Foundation . . .
Ron gets bailed out by Purcell and flees to Wichita . . .

From Barbara Kaye, his then lover -- re: Wichita mid-1951 -- states he was pretty bad off:

I was shocked by his appearance in Wichita. He had visibly deteriorated, both physically and emotionally. He was extremely unkempt, he lived like a street person. He was extremely depressed, talked in a monotone, always on the verge of tears.​
. . .​
When he went off with Alexis he came by the mansion at Hoover. I was there working and he was in a depression. I could see the way he walked - his head down, dragging his feet.​

However, by some miracle of research, or vivid imagination, he'd figured out the secrets of the universe
during the next year and . . .

By December 1952, he had traveled to or seen many other universes (PDC Lecture 6):
I know of three frames positively outside this universe. There’s a universe outside this universe and there’s a universe outside that and its set of universes, and there’s a universe outside that universe. And I know the one beyond that. And it’s not necess... they’re not necessarily getting thinner or more unsubstantial but they don’t run according to the same laws. E equals MC squared won’t work in ‘em. That is not a native characteristic of energy. It just happens to be.​

That might tell you all you need to know. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Don't forget he met 20-year-old Mary Sue when she was a student at his Dianetics Foundation in mid 1951, got her pregnant in Feb 1952, and married her a month later. This may have perked him up a bit.

 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
If Hubbard needs to convince himself of the things he mentions, that means he doesn't completely believe them, but wants to make himself believe them. He was trying to pass himself off to Parsons as a magus. Would he have shown Parsons something that would throw doubt on his status as a magus? Far from impressing Parsons, that would make him doubt Hubbard.

And would you have statements in a magical journal that say you're hypnotizing yourself? My guess is no.

As far as Hubbard being a "cult member," the OTO at the time wasn't much of a cult. Marco says today they have perhaps 2000 members, of whom only about 500 are active. In Crowley's time, he says, there were maybe 200 members worldwide.

<snip>

I think your former assessment of Hubbard as a con artist back in 1946 was correct. I think you should abandon the in my view unsupported "magical diary" hypothesis and look at what Hubbard is saying in Course 2 of the Affirmations: that he is hypnotizing himself to convince himself of certain things. If you look at it that way it makes complete sense.
That's a fair point. I'm not sure how self-hypnotism would fit into Thelema, but it doesn't sound like something Hubbard would put in just to impress Parsons. It does seem like something Hubbard really believed in or at least something he had hoped would work. Perhaps that was what got Hubbard into the cult - not so much the sex stuff (though that probably didn't diminish the appeal), but rather healing magick.

As for "cult", I never meant to imply that Thelema was an organized populous group. Rather I mean that it is a 'cult' in the sense that it distors the perception of reality, uses undue influence, magical thinking, "secret levels" and in general messess with the minds of the members. I feel it is a movement that people would need to "recover from" or "deprogram themselves out of" in some fashion. This is the similarity to Scientology.

The fact that he is self-hypnotizing doesn't give me an impression of him being on top and in-control. If anything, it feels the opposite - its a guy trying to cope with his exiting the cult and deal with his medical conditions.

I don't think the victim-victimizer dichotomy is self-contradictory, especuially in a cult setting. I think Hubbard was both: he certainly abused Jack's trust, and used him as a way to get away from his post-war troubles, not to mention the yacht con. At the same time, it does feel like Thelema did have a mind-warp effect on Hubbard and that he later had to in some fashion deprogram himself out of it.

You seem to want to give Hubbard a break. He doesn't deserve it. He was a con artist in 1946 and remained one for the rest of his life. Thelema gave him a philosophical framework that encouraged him to throw off all moral restraint and go after what he wanted, which was money and power. That, for Hubbard, was his "True Will."
I do not have a need to "get him off the hook", but neither do I have a need to "put him on the hook". I'm trying to get a view that is as unbiased as possible, "sine ira et studio"

Do you still have HelluvaHoax on ignore, like you mentioned before? He's coming up with some really good comments about your "Thelma cult survivor" angle.
I do and this is how it will remain, I have no need for more drama. I gave him a 2nd chance and I don't give people 3rd chances. End of story.

One could then say that Marty Rathbun [or your one-time nemesis on ESMB, Mike Rinder] is a "cult survivor" and should be looked at differently. Makes much more sense explaining how he behaved. Marty Rathbun
should be accorded a bit of "fast-flow forgiveness," being he was a cult survivor. No, Marty was a showboater, liar and thug when he got in. Got even worse later, post-SO. His basic personality re-emerged in full view and control.
Well, of course both of them are cult survivors. I never claimed otherwise. At the same time, being a cult survivor is in no way a "get out of jail free" card of any sort in my opinion. The same applies to Hubbard.

I think part of the confusion is the impression that was created that through my "Hubbard as ex-thelema cult member" angle, I am somehow making some sort of moral evaluation of him.
Make no mistake: I am not making any moral judgements in this matter in my posts here. Regardless if Hubbard was or was not a cult-survivor, that would not make any difference when it comes to the moral judgement of his role in Scientology.
It might shed some more light on his actions, but that adds to understanding, not to evaluation.

Footnote
Unraveling the Hubbard ball of yarn is best done by researching it as an enormous and decades long money laundering
scheme. Money laundering is concealing the origins of money obtained illegally by passing it through a complex labyrinth
of organizations, corporations, off-shore accounts, and secret numbered accounts. By the 1970s, Hubbard personally held
accounts in Switzerland, Luxembourg, and Liechtenstein. Money was transferred from a Liberian shell corporation, the
Religious Research Foundation, through a sequence of banking transfers or specious transactions. Anyone not well versed
in anti-money laundering techniques -- and I am not -- could be easily fooled into believing a whole bunch of other things. :coolwink:

Same with David Miscviage. He's just taken it to a new level . . . to a new zenith. (Three billion and counting.}

Thelma and "post-cult survivor" are just distractions, red herrings in the grand scheme of things. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm not questioning Hubbards avarice or his money laundering operation. But I don't see money as his main or only motive. He exerted far too much effort into countless policy letters and fine-tuning of Scientology training and auditing process for it to be just a money machine for him. If it had been just a money machine, it would be kept more simple, less controlled, more open ended. He certainly would have placed far more attention on fundraising and sales over training, but in fact he did the opposite.
I think Hubbard's main driver was his need for control, recognition and praise. Money was a distant 4th. David has his priorities in the reverse order.
 
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Harden Long

OSA no esta hermOSA
Unraveling the Hubbard ball of yarn is best done by researching it as an enormous and decades long money laundering
scheme. Money laundering is concealing the origins of money obtained illegally by passing it through a complex labyrinth
of organizations, corporations, off-shore accounts, and secret numbered accounts.
This is the essense of what most people miss about Scientology. It is the ultimate tax exempt money laundromat! To take in the massive amounts for upper level auditing as an example, tells you that there are almost no tangible assets used up during the delivery. In other words it's entirely tax exempt profit! They can take in drug dealers millions and say it's religious donations and through banking hocus pocus spit it out as clean tax exempt cash.
 
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pineapple

仮面の男
As for "cult", I never meant to imply that Thelema was an organized populous group. Rather I mean that it is a 'cult' in the sense that it distors the perception of reality, uses undue influence, magical thinking, "secret levels" and in general messess with the minds of the members. I feel it is a movement that people would need to "recover from" or "deprogram themselves out of" in some fashion. This is the similarity to Scientology.

The fact that he is self-hypnotizing doesn't give me an impression of him being on top and in-control. If anything, it feels the opposite - its a guy trying to cope with his exiting the cult and deal with his medical conditions.

I don't think the victim-victimizer dichotomy is self-contradictory, especuially in a cult setting. I think Hubbard was both: he certainly abused Jack's trust, and used him as a way to get away from his post-war troubles, not to mention the yacht con. At the same time, it does feel like Thelema did have a mind-warp effect on Hubbard and that he later had to in some fashion deprogram himself out of it.
I don't believe Hubbard was ever "in" a cult. He may have had some previous knowledge of Crowley's work, per Nibs. He knew enough to convince Parsons he had a great talent for Magick. He lived with Parsons for a few months (Parsons was his landlord) and took part in some rituals. There's no evidence of any duress. I don't think there was anything for him to "deprogram" himself from.

I don't think he ever really "exited" Thelema either. Thelema gave him the framework on which to model his own cult. He took the framework of Crowley's organization, and his own understanding of Crowley's work and made it his own.

That's what he meant when he described Crowley as "my very good friend." (They never met and never corresponded.) Crowley more than anyone else helped make Hubbard what he became. Crowley was in many ways the man Hubbard only pretended to be.

I think it was the "might makes right" philosophy expressed in Crowley's Book of The Law that most appealed to Hubbard. This gave him a excuse to do whatever it took to gratify his lust for power and money.

David Mayo:
I began to realise he wasn't acting for the public good or for the benefit of mankind, it worked partly that way and he may have started out like that, but in later years, in his own words, he had "an insatiable lust for power and money".

He told me he was obsessed by "an insatiable lust for power and money". He said it very emphatically. He thought it wasn't possible to get enough. He didn't say it as if it was a fault, just his frustration that he couldn't get enough.
Interview with David Mayo
 
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Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
They can take in drug dealers millions and say it's religious donations and through banking hocus pocus spit it out as clean tax exempt cash.
The whole "Ideal Orgs" real estate thing, would be very good for money laundering. You can get donations, then buy the donor's real estate at well above it's actual market value, and the donor gets to realize a big legitimate profit.

Or you buy real estate, fix it up using SO members (or illegal aliens paid in cash) and then sell it for a profit.
 

Harden Long

OSA no esta hermOSA
The whole "Ideal Orgs" real estate thing, would be very good for money laundering. You can get donations, then buy the donor's real estate at well above it's actual market value, and the donor gets to realize a big legitimate profit.
I remember reading that they have paid well beyond market value and paid cash in some cases.
 

PirateAndBum

Administrator
Staff member
I'm pretty sure Hubbard waltzed in to Parson's place with his usual charisma and charm. He was the consummate bullshitter.

OTO is not a high-control group. Hubbard had Parson eating out of his hand in no time.

Hubbard's affirmations give insight into his desires and his motivations with scn. Hubbard was always on stage performing for his marks.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Active member
I don't believe Hubbard was ever "in" a cult. He may have had some previous knowledge of Crowley's work, per Nibs. He knew enough to convince Parsons he had a great talent for Magick. He lived with Parsons for a few months (Parsons was his landlord) and took part in some rituals. There's no evidence of any duress. I don't think there was anything for him to "deprogram" himself from.

I don't think he ever really "exited" Thelema either. Thelema gave him the framework on which to model his own cult. He took the framework of Crowley's organization, and his own understanding of Crowley's work and made it his own.

That's what he meant when he described Crowley as "my very good friend." (They never met and never corresponded.) Crowley more than anyone else helped make Hubbard what he became. Crowley was in many ways the man Hubbard only pretended to be.

I think it was the "might makes right" philosophy expressed in Crowley's Book of The Law that most appealed to Hubbard. This gave him a excuse to do whatever it took to gratify his lust for power and money.

David Mayo:
I began to realise he wasn't acting for the public good or for the benefit of mankind, it worked partly that way and he may have started out like that, but in later years, in his own words, he had "an insatiable lust for power and money".

He told me he was obsessed by "an insatiable lust for power and money". He said it very emphatically. He thought it wasn't possible to get enough. He didn't say it as if it was a fault, just his frustration that he couldn't get enough.
Interview with David Mayo
Interesting interview with David Mayo there. I've only just skimmed it but it mentioned the old guy who had to push a peanut around the deck of the ship with his nose.

It reminds me of what Jon Atack said in "A Piece Of Blue Sky" that it is difficult to comprehend how people accepted the Ethics Conditions with such equanimity.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
I don't believe Hubbard was ever "in" a cult. He may have had some previous knowledge of Crowley's work, per Nibs. He knew enough to convince Parsons he had a great talent for Magick. He lived with Parsons for a few months (Parsons was his landlord) and took part in some rituals. There's no evidence of any duress. I don't think there was anything for him to "deprogram" himself from.
Well, you do not have to go through actual physical duress to be in a cult. I know a lot of people who joined scientology, did auditing then spent a few months on staff and left. They were not under any "duress", but they were still part of a cult and I'm sure they had some mind-warping to get rid off by the time they left.

As for if Hubbard had any deprogramming to do and how much - well, we will never know for certain. Though I assume he did, based on his writings and some leftover Thelema stuff he included in Scientology.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the magical-thinking ("believe in something hard enough and it will come true") appear to have had a detrimental impact on Hubbard and it seems this is something he never fully deprogrammed himself out of. I also think the sex rituals had a detrimental effect on Hubbard, which I think is then reflected in sec-check focus and "pain&sex" stuff. Perhaps even some of the anti-gay stuff he has there.

Again: its all gonna be speculation, as Hubbard is dead and even if he were alive he would not tell us the truth.

OTO is not a high-control group.
Well, certainly far less than Scn or the Moonies. But it is nevertheless a group that distorts the way people view reality and impacts their sanity. I would compare it to the Teal Swan cult in this sense.
 
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Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Well, you do not have to go through actual physical duress to be in a cult. I know a lot of people who joined scientology, did auditing then spent a few months on staff and left. They were not under any "duress", but they were still part of a cult and I'm sure they had some mind-warping to get rid off by the time they left.

As for if Hubbard had any deprogramming to do and how much - well, we will never know for certain. Though I assume he did, based on his writings and some leftover Thelema stuff he included in Scientology.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the magical-thinking ("believe in something hard enough and it will come true") appear to have had a detrimental impact on Hubbard and it seems this is something he never fully deprogrammed himself out of. I also think the sex rituals had a detrimental effect on Hubbard, which I think is then reflected in sec-check focus and "pain&sex" stuff. Perhaps even some of the anti-gay stuff he has there.

Again: its all gonna be speculation, as Hubbard is dead and even if he were alive he would not tell us the truth.


Well, certainly far less than Scn or the Moonies. But it is nevertheless a group that distorts the way people view reality and impacts their sanity. I would compare it to the Teal Swan cult in this sense.
I knew a guy, in my college days, who had been a Moonie. He had been my best friend in high school. I talked with him when his family got him out, and he was "not all there" , muttering about "the Satanic Will", etc.

The cult experience changes you, mentally. The intense ideological focus, 24/7, does something. I think "Rev Moon" learned something about Communist brainwashing technique in Korea, and used it in his Church.

Similar things happened in Scientology, to greater or lesser degrees with people.
 
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PirateAndBum

Administrator
Staff member
I couldn't pass this one up. LOL

“There should be an Indie/Freezone OT committee organizing the OTs’ power towards a desirable reality for the planet. There are non-Scientology OTs doing OT committee activities already: Alex Jones, David Icke, Inelia Benz.”
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
Just to follow up on the "Hubbard as the ex-thelema cult survivor" angle. Steve Hassan in a recent lecture stated that he believes 90% of cult leaders were in some cult themselves before they formed their own organization. He compares it with how most sexual predators were themselves victims of sex abuse when they were kids.

Lecture is online at Hassan's YT channel, I am linking to the specific timestamp where he states this:



Just food for thought. Doesn't make my theory any more or less probable, but its interesting to see other people thinking about cult leaders along the same lines.
 

PirateAndBum

Administrator
Staff member
“Scientology is booby-trapped to the point where Scientologists are sometimes unable to confront and handle reverse Scientology in PT. False bridges are confronted and resolved as an integral component of life on earth and the dynamics beyond the 8th. That includes the two primary BTs plus the primary and secondary assumption of beingness for the current eternity. The person is neither and BTs are a lower level harmonic of relative states of beingness, encountered within this universe as BTs which reduce to functions of awareness.”
Wow, I never knew this!!!!!!! Soooo amazing!!!! I'm charging the line right now.

Current eterinty huh, go figure. How many eternities are there I wonder?
 

pineapple

仮面の男
Wow, I never knew this!!!!!!! Soooo amazing!!!! I'm charging the line right now.

Current eterinty huh, go figure. How many eternities are there I wonder?
Freezoners believe that there have been prior universes and that this is not the first universe in which scn has existed. (I'm not and never have been a FZ'er, so this is just what I've picked up from reading.) They refer to the universe prior to this one as LTA (Last Time Around) and the current universe as TTA (This Time Around). Given those assumptions, one could have a "current eternity," though the meaning of the term "eternity" changes, from an absolute to a relative term. Your eternity would end, I guess, with the current universe.*

The idea that there have been multiple universes before this one is not unique to FZ scn. IMO it's not crazy, unlike most of scn. After all, don't you think there were earlier universes before The Big Bang that created this one? And after The Big Crunch that eventually ends this universe, won't there be another Big Bang, and then another universe?

NB: None of the above should be construed as support for scn, in any form.
:no:

* Edit: Using my imagination, I'd guess that your identity as an individual thetan would end when your universe did, and you'd be reabsorbed into the "main body of theta," i.e. the godhead, only to split off again in the next universe with a different identity. If any FZ'ers would like to comment or correct me on this, please do.
 
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PirateAndBum

Administrator
Staff member
“Based on a lot of reading I’ve done over many years I’ve come to the understanding that paedophilia is a standard operating procedure for the planet’s ruling elite, and that these ruling elite are in fact descendants of aliens (Annunaki? Zeta Reticulans? Archons? Marcabs?) which came here a long, long time ago, at which time they created humans as hybrids of themselves and existing earth hominids. These were and are the ‘gods’ of ancient Greek mythology etc. We are their property and they keep us trapped here via spiritual recycling and they persist here on Earth based on the relative degree of their original DNA in humans. This is why the ruling elite, such as the British royal family, are so stuck on keeping only to certain family bloodlines (a/k/a blue-bloods). One of the methods these elite employ to extend their lives is the consuming of Adrenachrome. Ever wonder about the longevity of Rockefellers and their ilk?”
 

JustSheila

Well-known member
The whole thing with multiple lives or universes is it doesn't actually address or answer the basic questions, just stretches the questions out over a longer period of time.

Like, "Who created me or how did I come to exist as an individual?" (When, how, why?) and
"Do I ever completely die?" (Why or why not, how and when?)

So I don't care whether anyone believes in earlier lives or universes, etc. Doesn't answer a thing.
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
Freezoners believe that there have been prior universes and that this is not the first universe in which scn has existed. (I'm not and never have been a FZ'er, so this is just what I've picked up from reading.) They refer to the universe prior to this one as LTA (Last Time Around) and the current universe as TTA (This Time Around). Given those assumptions, one could have a "current eternity," though the meaning of the term "eternity" changes, from an absolute to a relative term. Your eternity would end, I guess, with the current universe.*

The idea that there have been multiple universes before this one is not unique to FZ scn. IMO it's not crazy, unlike most of scn. After all, don't you think there were earlier universes before The Big Bang that created this one? And after The Big Crunch that eventually ends this universe, won't there be another Big Bang, and then another universe?

NB: None of the above should be construed as support for scn, in any form.
:no:

* Edit: Using my imagination, I'd guess that your identity as an individual thetan would end when your universe did, and you'd be reabsorbed into the "main body of theta," i.e. the godhead, only to split off again in the next universe with a different identity. If any FZ'ers would like to comment or correct me on this, please do.

For me, I don't get people who have beliefs like these. How does it matter if it is on a scale that is so incomprehensibly large that A human mind can't comprehend the time scope?
 

PirateAndBum

Administrator
Staff member
For me, I don't get people who have beliefs like these. How does it matter if it is on a scale that is so incomprehensibly large that A human mind can't comprehend the time scope?
Ah well, you must be a homo novis of course. Only wanna-be OTs can get it.
 
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