Original OT levels five through seven. Any good?

Veda

Well-known member
These were essentially recycled Rosicrucianism levels.

Discontinued in the late 1970s.

I was told by a high ranking tech person, at AOLA, in 1980, that they did not work very well, and that, now, NOTs was the answer.

These discontinued levels are still used by Independent Scientology. In fifty years of that Independent use, there are still no Scientology OTs.

Were any of these non-implant, non-BT, upper OT levels worth doing?
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
OT LEVEL
ABILITY ATTAINED
OT VIIIAbility to be at cause knowingly and at will over thought, life, form, matter, energy, space and time, subjective and objective$8000
OT VIIRehabilitation of intention; ability to project intention$5,100
OT VIAbility to operate freely as a thetan exterior and to act pan-determinedly; extends the influence of the thetan to the universe of others$9,600
OT VRe-familiarizes a thetan exterior with the physical universe; freedom from fixated introversion into matter, energy, space, time$9,300
per 12.5 hrs
OT IVCertainty of self as a being$8,100
per 12.5 hrs
OT IIIReturn of full self determinism; freedom from overwhelm$8,910
OT IIAbility to confront Whole Track$5,225
OT IExtroverts a being and brings about an awareness of himself as a thetan in relation to others and the physical universe$2,750
.






Jeez, that is kinda problematic. Nobody ever once went exterior. Not even Ron or Mary Sue--or all the un-Merry Sues that merrily sued him for a refund.

As ethical OTs ourselves, we can only pray and postulate that Dr. Hubbard voluntarily refunded the millions of dollars he pocketed all those years, when he cognited that none of those OT levels produced the guaranteed results.

I just myself cognited on something as well. I just realized why all those years Dr. Hubbard was so frequently overheard muttering the expression "pocketa-pocketa".

.
 
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Veda

Well-known member
Thanks of the list of abilities from the 1970 Grade Chart.

OT LEVEL
ABILITY ATTAINED
OT VIIIAbility to be at cause knowingly and at will over thought, life, form, matter, energy, space and time, subjective and objective$8000
OT VIIRehabilitation of intention; ability to project intention$5,100
OT VIAbility to operate freely as a thetan exterior and to act pan-determinedly; extends the influence of the thetan to the universe of others$9,600
OTVRe-familiarizes a thetan exterior with the physical universe; freedom from fixated introversion into matter, energy, space, time$9,300
per 12.5 hrs
OT IVCertainty of self as a being$8,100
per 12.5 hrs
OT IIIReturn of full self determinism; freedom from overwhelm$8,910
OT IIAbility to confront Whole Track$5,225
OT IExtroverts a being and brings about an awareness of himself as a thetan in relation to others and the physical universe$2,750
Jeez, that is kinda problematic. Nobody ever once went exterior. Not even Ron or Mary Sue or or all the Merry Sues that sued him for a refund .
IMO, lots of people went "exterior," usually before Scientology, and it was forgotten as it was an alternate state of consciousness drowned out by ordinary consciousness, but that's another story.

Alas, I think we can safely assume that Dr. Hubbard voluntarily refunded the millions of dollars he pocketed all those years, when he cognited that none of those OT levels produced the guaranteed results.

I just myself cognited on something as well. I just realized why all those years Dr. Hubbard was so frequently overheard muttering the expression "pocketa-pocketa".
I'm concerned that ESMBR is becoming an echo chamber.

.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
originally posted by Veda
I'm concerned that ESMBR is becoming an echo chamber.
Mostly the same people with mostly the same views, with an intolerance towards outsiders with different opinions.
.
That is beyond odd.

You posted a question. A board member responds. Then you complain that they are the wrong person to respond, because you want people who aren't board members to join in order to answer your question a different way.

If you already know what answer you want to your question, wouldn't it save time if you created threads that only allowed 2 posts?

1. Your original post.
2. Your answer to #1.

Am I missing something? LOL

ps: Here's a suggestion. I would agree to this. You start a thread that is just for "outsiders with different opinions" and label that thread just that way: OUTSIDERS WITH DIFFERENT OPINIONS. I have zero problem agreeing to not post anything on that thread and I think 99% of the other members of ESMB would grant you that wish as well. I am serious, I would not post ANYTHING on that thread. You could be the cordial host of that thread and manage it any way that you want and encourage any discussions you want and no longer be subjected to the "echo chamber of intolerance" you seem concerned about. Honestly, Veda, I am not joking. Go start a thread like that or start an entirely new "SECTION" on the board that board members cheerfully agree to not post on. That could work for you and would not cost anyone anything. If the "new members" that hold discussions on your thread(s) wish to venture out beyond those specific threads (onto the toxic board of intolerant threads) then they could do so at their own risk. But within the confines of your safe threads, you could get what what you are hoping for and nobody would try to barge into those conversations with "echoes" and "intolerance". I am not being facetious. I know that I call out Scientology doctrines and debunk them. That's my post description and VFP here. LOL.

.

.
 
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Veda

Well-known member
.
That is beyond odd.

You posted a question. A board member responds. Then you complain that they are the wrong person to respond, because you want people who aren't board members to join in order to answer your question a different way.

If you already know what answer you want to your question, wouldn't it save time if you created threads that only allowed 2 posts?

1. Your original post.
2. Your answer to #1.

Am I missing something? LOL

.
I answered a question from ILove2lurk

That doesn't mean I don't value your answers.
 

Chuck J.

Sabrina. Princess Sabrina to you.
I'll not post on it either. Maybe vaccinate the new outside posters before they venture outward to the remainder of the forum. Can never be too safe ya know.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
I answered a question from ILove2lurk

That doesn't mean I don't value your answers.

Maybe there is a bad miscommunication. However, you answered my post with this message. . . (you wrote the following to me):

"I'm concerned that ESMBR is becoming an echo chamber."
Since you wrote that to me, I responded to you as I did.

Wasn't that supposed to advise me that I am part of the "echo chamber" and "intolerance" you spoke of?

I don't mind the idea at all if you and/or the board administrator create "safe zones" for those who don't wish any debunking attempts. I really wouldn't mind that at all and have no problem with not going to safe zones where Scientologists and Indie Scientologists can post whatever they want. But that would not be any guarantee that anyone with a Debunker's License could not (under fair use doctrine) copy what they said elsewhere. I see hilarious quotes like that on "The UnderGround Bunker" and they almost never require any comment because they are self-satirical and self-debunking. [ LINK AT: "OVERHEARD IN THE FREEZONE" ]

.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
We've jumped the shark! :omg:

A dear friend, afaceinthecrowd, once told me that he was written out and didn't have
much more to post about. He'd told all the stories and gave all the insights he felt
comfortable making public.

I told him that was alright. That's just the way it works. Once you write your autobiography,
your book, the book is written. You got to the last chapter and the story is written and
over. There isn't more to say.

And that's what we've done here on this message board, IMO. We've collectively written
the book and more or less finished the final chapter of the story. It's all here and on ESMB
and ESMB2.

Most all the secrets have been revealed, the guilty parties uncovered, the sordid details
presented fully, and most entertaining stories told. Most of the time anymore, we're just
re-tilling the same soil.

There's no more big reveals that are gonna happen. Everything has been documented ten
times over. There's not gonna be anymore major "aha" moments. We've figured it all out
during the past 14 years. We're now a bunch of people who like to till the same soil over
and over. But we do have fun doing it. :coolwink:



That's just the way it works. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I have to run right now. I'm in the middle of a book re-re-analyzing the Nov '63 Zapruder film. :LOL:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
I'll not post on it either. Maybe vaccinate the new outside posters before they venture outward to the remainder of the forum. Can never be too safe ya know.
This kind of problem has arisen since...forever.

Many years ago on the original message board, I wrote a suggestion that perhaps new members can have access to "S" zones when they first join. "S" for Safe Zones. Those would be single threads or even entire sections that have an "S" rating, in that they don't allow debunking or challenges or anything that even approaches "debates" or (god forbid) "debunking". I was serious about it then, as now.

In that case NEW MEMBERS could post anything they wanted on "S" rated threads with no slightest fear or discomfort of being challenged, made wrong, invalidated or presented with uncomfortable facts.

The NEW MEMBER could remain on "S" only rated portions of the board forever if they wanted. They would be able to read the rest of the board but not post on it.

However, the NEW "S-RATED" MEMBER could elect at any time at all to change their "rating" and move to a "G" rating (GENERAL PUBLIC). Or maybe it could be called an "A" rating which perhaps sounds/feels better ("Advanced" Rating).

Once they had elected to covert to an "A" rating, then anyone could post anything they wanted on those threads about what the person posted on that "A" rated thread.

I think if a board member could choose at their sole discretion if they wanted to be a member of the entire board or just the "S" (safe) portions, then nobody could complain that they were being treated badly or (drum roll, wait for it.......) "being driven off the board!" LOL


.
 

freethinker

Controversial
I answered a question from ILove2lurk

That doesn't mean I don't value your answers.
It's easy to tell where you have interest by your avatar. you can't expect people to become your ideal, they have ideals of their own. people don't come here to get back into Scientology they come here to understand why they got into it. Once they do that, then, and only then, can they decide to continue or abort. You aren't getting the interest you want because people don't want the philosophical ideology and false efficaciousness of Scientology and nothing you can say, or I can say will draw them closer to, or farther away. People that come here are not looking for the way, but why they fell for the way in the first place.

If they decide to continue with the tech, they have to make up their own mind about it, not what you, or I have to say about it. To denigrate the board, as not meeting your goal, or my goal is irrelevant because they didn't come here to be told again what is good for them, but to find out for themselves, however, or whatever, form that takes. It's not your or my call.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
We've jumped the shark! :omg:

A dear friend, afaceinthecrowd, once told me that he was written out and didn't have
much more to post about. He'd told all the stories and gave all the insights he felt
comfortable making public.

I told him that was alright. That's just the way it works. Once you write your autobiography,
your book, the book is written. You got to the last chapter and the story is written and
over. There isn't more to say.

And that's what we've done here on this message board, IMO. We've collectively written
the book and more or less finished the final chapter of the story. It's all here and on ESMB
and ESMB2.

Most all the secrets have been revealed, the guilty parties uncovered, the sordid details
presented fully, and most entertaining stories told. Most of the time anymore, we're just
re-tilling the same soil.

There's no more big reveals that are gonna happen. Everything has been documented ten
times over. There's not gonna be anymore major "aha" moments. We've figured it all out
during the past 14 years. We're now a bunch of people who like to till the same soil over
and over. But we do have fun doing it. :coolwink:



That's just the way it works. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I have to run right now. I'm in the middle of a book re-re-analyzing the Nov '63 Zapruder film. :LOL:

.
LOL!

Funny coincidence, that! I myself am working on a documentary film that has uncovered new evidence that L. Ron Hubbard's doppelgänger ("LRHd") actually took over earlier than suspected. We now have videotaped affidavits from Ron's Org Scientologists that LRHd came on-lines in 1962!

Naturally this all fits together like a giant jigsaw puzzle now, because less than a year later LRHd was seen in a rubber sweat suit, jogging away from Dealey Plaza just moments after JFK was shot.

We are the first to uncover this data, so let me suggest to you that you hold back publication on your newest book until after you have a paid membership to our blog and viewed the documentary.

.
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
I was told by a high ranking tech person, at AOLA, in 1980, that they did not work very well, and that, now, NOTs was the answer.
I heard that they did not work well, too. PreOTs who had completed them were still plagued by physical
somatics and many of the problems garden-variety humans and lower-level cases complained of. NOTs
was the missing link that would debug the cases and allow those Old OT levels become fully realized by
the PreOT. I know this is not the case from talking to many old-timers. It was just a story, a hope maybe.
Were any of these non-implant, non-BT, upper OT levels worth doing?
Only as much as picking up a copy of The Creation of Human Ability and doing the drills of the imagination
in the book. The book should be renamed The Creation of Human Imagination, because that's all it is. One
can get "wins" or benefits from doing drills or practices involving the human imagination and creativity.
There's a bunch of therapies and human activities based on that fact. I could write a long list of them.
 
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ISNOINews

Independent Scientology and Nation of Islam news
A compilation of previously posted information regarding Independent Scientology and the Original OT Levels.


1. The Independent Scientology Dror Center in Israel.


The Dror Center offers Original OT 4 - 7. See:

The Greatest Hoax of the Church of Scientology

The Greatest Hoax of the Church of Scientology – Dror Friends

Although less than clear, it appears from the above article that the Dror Center may use the flowing Grade Chart or something similar.


image-14.png

Dror Center Original OT 4 Success Story Video:



2. The First Independent Church of Scientology (FICS).

The FICS Grade Chart offers Original OT 4 -7.





FICS provides the following justification for their Grade Chart.

The Grade Chart and Standard Technology | First Independent Church of Scientology

* * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *

The Grade Chart and Standard Technology

A visitor to our church asked the following:

"What’s with the squirrel grade chart?

I saw LRH’s written instructions to REMOVE original OT IV-VII from the Grade chart and to remove them from PC programming.

Why squirrel his instruction?"

The answer is that L Ron Hubbard did not write instructions to remove these levels.

The change to remove original OT IV-VII was made by HCOB 19 Jan 1982 “NEW – STREAMLINED CLASSIFICATION AND GRADATION CHART.”

That HCOB was not written by LRH, and was later cancelled..

* * * * * END EXCERPT * * * * *


3. The Independent Reformed Church of Scientology (IRCS).

Like FICS, IRCS also offers Original OT 4 - 7. Indeed, the IRCS Grade Chart appears to be identical to the earlier FICS Grade Chart.




4. The Independent Scientology Advanced Organization of the Great Plains (AOGP).

Like FICS and IRCS, AOGP offers original OT 4 - 7 in addition to NOTs. Unlike FICS and IRCS, AOGP clarified that it does original OT 4 -7 before NOTs.


9npDbhF.png ../
 
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ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
People that come here are not looking for the way, but why they fell for the way in the first place.
Strong point.

Three things:
  • People who arrive here have generally made absolute, iron-clad decisions in their minds to quit
    the COS. They know once they jump in these waters they can NEVER go back. They're done!
  • I believe they quietly lurk or hang for months or years to get the lay of the land, only becoming
    members and posting after a long spell of reading. Most see what's going on before they post.
    I know many who lurked for years, me included, before posting and "coming out."
  • Most people are here to solve their "dark nights of the soul," which inevitably come after realizing
    they've been tricked and wasted perhaps decades of their lives on something that doesn't exist.
    They get some solace here.
Mobtherapy.jpg
:coolwink:
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
I heard that they did not work well, too. PreOTs who had completed them were still plagued by physical
somatics and many of the problems garden-variety humans and lower-level cases complained of. NOTs
was the missing link that would debug the cases and allow those Old OT levels become fully realized by
the PreOT. I know this is not the case from talking to many old-timers. It was just a story, a hope maybe.

Only as much as picking up a copy of The Creation of Human Ability and doing the drills of the imagination
in the book. The book should be renamed The Creation of Human Imagination, because that's all it is. One
can get "wins" or benefits from doing drills or practices involving the human imagination and creativity.
There's a bunch of therapies and human activities based on that fact. I could write a long list of them.
.

Outstanding!

If Hubbard had not been a con man and pathological liar, he might have admitted that he had entirely imagined engrams, the state of Clear, the state of OT and all the rest of Scientology. He could have sold a "Bridge To Total Imagination" as a way of ramping up people's problem solving ability in life. The "creative solution" that is required when all factors in a person's life point to fail.

That would have been a powerful avenue to explore and test whether increasing a person's creativity would simultaneously increase their personal success and happiness. Personally, I think it does--at a profound level. Many people regard me as a "very successful" entrepreneur, but I don't think I am a genius at it compared to true icons of industry and commerce. Mostly because i don't relish being a manager and therefore I am always looking for ways to hire people to do that so I can focus on creative ways to expand or start new enterprises. I just think I rely on the "crutch" and "get out of jail card" and often unscrupulously resort to "cheating" by means of creativity. LOL.

Imagination is not taught in schools unless by some happenstance, the student has elected to enter the "creative world" of design, writing, painting or other aesthetically narrow careers. What is missing is that a full-blown credit in IMAGINATION-growth would serve any career. If I sell my businesses at some point I think I'll add that as a book to explore writing with all my other fancy creative (but as yet undone) projects.

What hope does someone have to survive in the world without a little imagination. I have notice something quite extraordinary in my travels around the world. Some of the most desperately poor people and places have virtually NO imagination when it comes to a problem. They just accept the "facts" of their condition and try to learn to not complain, pray more or other unimaginative solutions.

.
 
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He-man

Hero extraordinary
This kind of problem has arisen since...forever.

Many years ago on the original message board, I wrote a suggestion that perhaps new members can have access to "S" zones when they first join. "S" for Safe Zones. Those would be single threads or even entire sections that have an "S" rating, in that they don't allow debunking or challenges or anything that even approaches "debates" or (god forbid) "debunking". I was serious about it then, as now.

In that case NEW MEMBERS could post anything they wanted on "S" rated threads with no slightest fear or discomfort of being challenged, made wrong, invalidated or presented with uncomfortable facts.

The NEW MEMBER could remain on "S" only rated portions of the board forever if they wanted. They would be able to read the rest of the board but not post on it.

However, the NEW "S-RATED" MEMBER could elect at any time at all to change their "rating" and move to a "G" rating (GENERAL PUBLIC). Or maybe it could be called an "A" rating which perhaps sounds/feels better ("Advanced" Rating).

Once they had elected to covert to an "A" rating, then anyone could post anything they wanted on those threads about what the person posted on that "A" rated thread.

I think if a board member could choose at their sole discretion if they wanted to be a member of the entire board or just the "S" (safe) portions, then nobody could complain that they were being treated badly or (drum roll, wait for it.......) "being driven off the board!" LOL


.
It is a very good point, but it also does mean that the "G/A" portion would probably become even more toxic then ever, since it does promote the mindset that once you pass the border of the safe zone, the gloves are coming off! Not that it's an actual problem. I'm more akin to what IL2L wrote before. It's all been said already.
 

Veda

Well-known member
A compilation of previously posted information regarding Independent Scientology and the Original OT Levels.

BEGIN EXCERPT

-snip-

The Grade Chart and Standard Technology | First Independent Church of Scientology

* * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *

-snip-

The Grade Chart and Standard Technology

A visitor to our church asked the following:

"What’s with the squirrel grade chart?

I saw LRH’s written instructions to REMOVE original OT IV-VII from the Grade chart and to remove them from PC programming.

Why squirrel his instruction?"

The answer is that L Ron Hubbard did not write instructions to remove these levels.

The change to remove original OT IV-VII was made by HCOB 19 Jan 1982 “NEW – STREAMLINED CLASSIFICATION AND GRADATION CHART.”

That HCOB was not written by LRH, and was later cancelled..

* * * * * END EXCERPT * * * * *
Former Senior Case Supervisor, and Hubbard's personal auditor, David Mayo, stated that Hubbard removed the original upper OT levels from the Grade Chart. After all, he was there.

Despite some disagreement, in the "Independent Field," about who removed the original upper OT levels, and disagreement about where those levels should now be on the Grade Chart, there is what appears to be unanimity on the existence of "Dianetic Clear" "Yay!:hey:I'm Clear!" and support for the changes, made by Hubbard, to the middle grade chart in 1978. (Both the middle Grade Chart and the Dianetics Course were mangled. For example, the word "consideration" replaced the word "somatic" on the Dianetics Course, making Dianetics even more significance-oriented than it already was, and the middle Grade Chart, for most, simply disappeared, with people who, previously, would have been called "Dianetic Case Completions," being shipped "up lines" to begin OT 1.) :scratch:

Except for Ron's Orgs which appears to reject "Dianetic Clear" since that occurred after the doppelganger switch of 1973. :blink:

During 1990/1991, the independent field magazines, International Viewpoints and the Free Spirit, published David Mayo's 1989 article on Clear. By this time, if I recall the dates correctly, Mayo's Independent Advanced Ability Center had been harassed out of existence by Scientology Inc., and he was still working with Sarge Gerbode on designing the subject of Meta Psychology.

Mayo wrote: "It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were 'clear' at a certain point."

:ohmy:


This is a sticking point for today's Independent Field, which has difficulty coming to grips with the idea that Hubbard was willing to modify auditing tech, and the Grade Chart, for monetary, or PR, or for other, less than noble, reasons.

This becomes particularly messy with the possibility that Hubbard, from the 1960s, or perhaps from the very beginning, may have been doing something else, which was different than his stated - publicized - objectives.

The idea is that the "next step" for the Independent Field is not necessarily to abandon everything on which the name "Scientology" or "Hubbard" is stamped, but to grow up, stop being the "Old Man's" children, and re-examine the subject as honest adults.
 
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