New OT levels vs Original OT levels

haiqu

Active member
There has on occasion been some conversation amongst Scientologists about where the upper OT levels might be, and when they are likely to be released. Despite Pat Broeker's claim at the event of LRH's passing, apparently there do not exist any further levels written up after OT VIII. Pierre Ethier would disagree with this, but he's not infallible and seems to have taken LRH's "PR statements" - an act of kindness if there ever was one - about having made notes of levels up to OT XV to heart. If one does a thorough investigation it becomes plain that these levels are mostly a fantasy.

Ignoring the works of others like Capt. Bill Robertson, some have mentioned the possibility that the next thing to do after OT VIII would be the original OT levels. That's an interesting claim, because Original OT IV requires one to have done the Clearing Course, and the vast majority of pre-OTs these days have not done this route, having gone Clear on NED.

As Janis Gillham Grady - one of the "original four" members of the CMO - noted in a recent online interview, the Original OT levels are quite theta and fun, at least compared to NOTs which has a tendency to extend for years and involves 6-monthly Sec Checks and exorbitant expense. And despite my having attested Clear without having done the CC, my late C/S had the prescience to put me through it anyhow, a gift for which I can never thank him enough.

So, I'm now on Original OT IV and finding it quite enlightening. I no longer have a C/S and I'm running it solo, a method I don't recommend to the average bear. But since I'm not the average bear, it's a valid route for me. "What's true for you is true ... for you." - LRH

Since I am no longer bothered by "fleas" I will leave the decision of whether to run NOTs or Excalibur for a future date. The OTs I have admired most on my journey were impressive already well before NOTs was released, and that's good enough for me. And frankly I don't really have the desire to audit every being in the universe either.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
There has on occasion been some conversation amongst Scientologists about where the upper OT levels might be, and when they are likely to be released. Despite Pat Broeker's claim at the event of LRH's passing, apparently there do not exist any further levels written up after OT VIII. Pierre Ethier would disagree with this, but he's not infallible and seems to have taken LRH's "PR statements" - an act of kindness if there ever was one - about having made notes of levels up to OT XV to heart. If one does a thorough investigation it becomes plain that these levels are mostly a fantasy.

Ignoring the works of others like Capt. Bill Robertson, some have mentioned the possibility that the next thing to do after OT VIII would be the original OT levels. That's an interesting claim, because Original OT IV requires one to have done the Clearing Course, and the vast majority of pre-OTs these days have not done this route, having gone Clear on NED.

As Janis Gillham Grady - one of the "original four" members of the CMO - noted in a recent online interview, the Original OT levels are quite theta and fun, at least compared to NOTs which has a tendency to extend for years and involves 6-monthly Sec Checks and exorbitant expense. And despite my having attested Clear without having done the CC, my late C/S had the prescience to put me through it anyhow, a gift for which I can never thank him enough.

So, I'm now on Original OT IV and finding it quite enlightening. I no longer have a C/S and I'm running it solo, a method I don't recommend to the average bear. But since I'm not the average bear, it's a valid route for me. "What's true for you is true ... for you." - LRH

Since I am no longer bothered by "fleas" I will leave the decision of whether to run NOTs or Excalibur for a future date. The OTs I have admired most on my journey were impressive already well before NOTs was released, and that's good enough for me. And frankly I don't really have the desire to audit every being in the universe either.

Personally, I advise people to:

1. First run ALL the new OT levels through OT VIII.

2. After that go back and run ALL the old OT levels to OT VII.

3. After that go back and run OT 1 again until the state of full operating thetan is reached.

I have been running OT 1 since the 1970s and it's still producing huge TA and massive case gain on the first process, which is going to a train or bus station and counting bodies. Ron states that the pre-OT must write down how many were counted. I think that's the missing link of why people didn't make make it to the state of Cleared Theta Clear---because they were counting but not writing the stats down on paper.

Ron states (not merely suggests) that "If it's not in writing it's not true!"

Do this and we will all win!


.
 
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haiqu

Active member
Personally, I advise people to:

1. First run ALL the new OT levels through OT VIII.

2. After that go back and run ALL the old OT levels to OT VII.

3. After that go back and run OT 1 again until the state of full operating thetan is reached.

I have been running OT 1 since the 1970s and it's still producing huge TA and massive case gain on the first process, which is going to a train or bus station and counting bodies. Ron states that the pre-OT must write down how many were counted. I think that's the missing link of why people didn't make make it to the state of Cleared Theta Clear---because they were counting but now writing the stats down on paper.

Ron states (not merely suggests) that "If it's not in writing it's not true!"
Clearly this is a piss-take. One can't do Original OT IV without the CC first, since the materials would be totally new to them and the implant unhandled. But you give the game away in your "count the bodies and write the total down, because if it isn't written it isn't true" punchline.

This is the kind of J&D that can and will lead a person up the garden path. Shame on you.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Clearly this is a piss-take. One can't do Original OT IV without the CC first, since the materials would be totally new to them and the implant unhandled. But you give the game away in your "count the bodies and write the total down, because if it isn't written it isn't true" punchline. This is the kind of J&D that can and will lead a person up the garden path. Shame on you.
.

Apparently you are not familiar with LRH's HCOB on "past life" and "natural" Clears. As a former case supervisor, this datum was broadly used in worldwide tech divisions when questions/concerns arose such as the one you mention above. In such instances, it was routine to assess and confirm whether the PC/Pre-OT was possibly a "past life CC completion" or a "natural CC completion".

In either of those two scenarios the standard handling was to follow the Auditor's Code and NOT INVALIDATE THE PC, by ordering them to re-do the Clearing Course.

Do try to keep your KSW in and avoid Auditor Code breaks, leading a person down (not "up") the garden path.

PRO TIP: In Scientology "down" is bad (e.g. downtone, downstat, et al) and "up" is good (e.g. uptone, upstat, et al). You can work these stable datums out quite easily if you have some paperclips and used batteries.

.

.
 
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haiqu

Active member
Apparently you are not familiar with LRH's HCOB on "past life" and "natural" Clears. As a former case supervisor, this datum was broadly used in worldwide tech divisions when questions/concerns arose such as the one you mention above. In such instances, it was routine to assess and confirm whether the PC/Pre-OT was possibly a "past life CC completion" or a "natural CC completion".
Since I attested to Natural Clear myself I'm VERY aware of that policy.

In either of those two scenarios the standard handling was to follow the Auditor's Code and NOT INVALIDATE THE PC, by ordering them to re-do the Clearing Course.
The statement makes no sense. The standard handling was to insist that the Natural Clear do a DCSI (and/or a CCRD depending on when they attested, I had to do both) and then continue on to the Solo Course and OT I (if invited). They were never put on the Clearing Course.

You are not any sort of C/S I'd want running my case.
 

Bill

Well-known member
The statement makes no sense. The standard handling was to insist that the Natural Clear do a DCSI (and/or a CCRD depending on when they attested, I had to do both) and then continue on to the Solo Course and OT I (if invited). They were never put on the Clearing Course.

You are not any sort of C/S I'd want running my case.
One problem I've seen with True Believers is that they have absolutely no sense of humor. :thumbsup: :D

When I think about it, that would be a huge warning sign about Scientology's "results". "Yeah, I didn't get the results that Ron promised ... but, at least, I lost my sense of humor!"
 

Barile

Well-known member
I'm on it. My team is developing the new "Freedom from Humor" certificate for the New and Improved Humor Rundown, that I'm squirreling away at in my garage. It is possible to achieve this state "naturally", and so there will also be a "Native Freedom from Humor" provisional cert, because some people were born with the native ability, Irony Deficiency. I see there are some... contenders.

 

Veda

Well-known member
There has on occasion been some conversation amongst Scientologists about where the upper OT levels might be, and when they are likely to be released. Despite Pat Broeker's claim at the event of LRH's passing, apparently there do not exist any further levels written up after OT VIII. Pierre Ethier would disagree with this, but he's not infallible and seems to have taken LRH's "PR statements" - an act of kindness if there ever was one - about having made notes of levels up to OT XV to heart. If one does a thorough investigation it becomes plain that these levels are mostly a fantasy.

Ignoring the works of others like Capt. Bill Robertson, some have mentioned the possibility that the next thing to do after OT VIII would be the original OT levels. That's an interesting claim, because Original OT IV requires one to have done the Clearing Course, and the vast majority of pre-OTs these days have not done this route, having gone Clear on NED.

As Janis Gillham Grady - one of the "original four" members of the CMO - noted in a recent online interview, the Original OT levels are quite theta and fun, at least compared to NOTs which has a tendency to extend for years and involves 6-monthly Sec Checks and exorbitant expense. And despite my having attested Clear without having done the CC, my late C/S had the prescience to put me through it anyhow, a gift for which I can never thank him enough.

So, I'm now on Original OT IV and finding it quite enlightening. I no longer have a C/S and I'm running it solo, a method I don't recommend to the average bear. But since I'm not the average bear, it's a valid route for me. "What's true for you is true ... for you." - LRH

Since I am no longer bothered by "fleas" I will leave the decision of whether to run NOTs or Excalibur for a future date. The OTs I have admired most on my journey were impressive already well before NOTs was released, and that's good enough for me. And frankly I don't really have the desire to audit every being in the universe either.
To clarify, I think Janis Grady was referring to the original upper levels, meaning the discontinued upper levels, notably OT 5, 6, and 7.

Original OT 4, having to do with "whole track implanting," as told to the "Pre-OT" by L. Ron Hubbard, probably would not qualify as real "fun" and "theta," IMO. (I know you're enjoying original OT 4, but, when all is said and done, it results in a person being lodged even more securely into the inside of L. Ron Hubbard's head. No doubt, you don't want to hear that, but it's the truth.)

*​

For starters, here's a segment of a recent post that addresses to OT levels:

During the 1960s, Franklin Jones had been an auditor at the New York Org, and then done the OT levels at the Advanced Organization in Los Angeles.

In his first book, The Knee of Listening, 1971 edition, chapter 12: The search for release from the mind: Scientology, he described Scientology at length.

Below is an small except relevant to this discussion.

________________________________________Begin quote__________________________________________​

Scientology made use of a peculiar technique called "auditing." A trained person sat with you and, by careful use of a pattern of direct questioning, sought to remove the force which certain key experiences in your past had on your daily life. My friend had experienced great benefits from this method, and he had been led to re-experience his birth, the violence of which he felt had determined a kind of nervous and aloof quality in him all his life. Now he felt particularly "cleared" of the force of that experience and all kind of other reactions that he had retained as unconscious controls on his behavior.

Scientology sought by these means to relieve a person from the machinery of memory and unconscious reactivity so that he could eventually attain a state called "clear." In the state of "clear" the reactive or unconscious mind was supposed to be entirely eliminated as a force...

But when I actually performed the Clearing and O.T. levels I found that they continued to deal only with the content of the mind. And that content was continually identified with the peculiar cosmic politics favored by Ron Hubbard. Thus I felt that these levels never dealt with the fundamental problem of the mind itself, prior to any content. In fact. they only led people deeper and deeper into a fanciful, paranoiac dilemma in which they were indoctrinated into the mentality of a cosmic political holocaust.

...It was only on the upper levels, when the activity of auditing had degenerated into exercises of pure nonsense, that I realized what I had in fact led myself into...

I saw that Scientology was actually a political entity created along the lines of a fanciful interpretation of history. Its goals were political, not spiritual. Thus, its leading concern was power, not wisdom or realization.



____________________________________________End of quote__________________________________________​


I had an old friend who did (original) OT 7 in 1970 or 1971 and, when he attested, stated that he had already done the process fifteen years earlier. He was briefly in some hot water for that. (It was regarded as an invalidation of the tech.)

Have you considered doing Route One from the Creation of Human Ability?

Here's a link to the antecedent of Route One's Grand Tour from the year 1911. It involves spanning attention, "mock ups" (visualization), specialized mock ups where a person attempts to place a mock up of the same size of a physical object, in the same space as the physical object, and more. The idea is to expand consciousness to the planets and, ultimately, to the stars.

The word "Nuit," in this 1911 collection of processes, means "infinity."

*​

Years ago, outside of Scientology Inc., of course, I ran this 1911 collection of processes, somewhat (not completely), on myself, and also on a person who was curious about "the Bridge." I took this person from ARC S/W to Objectives, to R3R Dianetics, and then through the Lower Grades. During a time out, we did a (very interesting) but discontinued (Listing) Help process from the 1950s, then Filberts exteriorization "Leapfrogging" process, and, then Filbert's process to handle the "ARC break" with the "Higher Self," plus - at the person's request, to satisfy his curiosity - a little NOTs. At no point did I subject this person to Hubbard's "case" or to the malevolent mind games he plays on Scientologists, except to briefly expose him to this aspect of Scientology so as to inoculate him from it.

Carl Gustav Jung addresses his Higher Self
After the schism of '82/'83, with so many previously silent people now communicating (sans the constraints of Scientology Inc.), with documentation such as the Shannon biographical materials, obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, being available (exposing Hubbard as a major prevaricator), along with the large amount of previously secret LRH cloak and dagger tech now available due to a federal court order, plus all of Hubbard's handwritten "Advanced Course" materials being available, for review, plus the NOTs materials, and more, it seemed, at the time, to be a good idea to also review the actions of the Grade Chart, and to see what auditing the various grades of that chart would be like, free of oppressive organizational red tape.

One thing I realized during this period was that Hubbard had not only "used enemy tactics" (per his confidential instruction), on his perceived enemies, but also on his loyal followers. And he had used (internally) his cloak and dagger (covert Intelligence) tech (supposedly only for use externally) on his own followers.

Link to the Creating a (mental) vacuum ("clearing"), then filling the vacuum (implanting) thread.

Hubbard, as an "implanter," hit his stride during the mid 1960s and beyond.
Having known "OTs" from the 1950s (from the - relatively - saner time of 1953 through 1960), from my observation, they were much more "OT" than the "OTs" of the latter 1960s, who were contaminated with Hubbard's "case" and mind games.

This is why I suggested looking earlier, before the 1960s, and even before Scientology, for some true "OT" processes.











 

JustSheila

Well-known member
Since I attested to Natural Clear myself I'm VERY aware of that policy.



The statement makes no sense. The standard handling was to insist that the Natural Clear do a DCSI (and/or a CCRD depending on when they attested, I had to do both) and then continue on to the Solo Course and OT I (if invited). They were never put on the Clearing Course.

You are not any sort of C/S I'd want running my case.
Natural Clear was only around to attest for a few years, then cancelled. I also attested natural clear in that time. Hubbard’s concept of a bank wasn’t something I ever had…. Nobody did. It was an idea he made up.
Anyway, after natural clear was canceled, the choices were Dn Clear, Clearing Course clear and past life Dn clear. That’s it.

As far as comparing which bridge was better, etc… eh. The old Scientologists who did the old bridge had a huge number of members who took LSD or had long drug histories and they were way whackier than those who came in the 80s. Really, really whacky. Some were expecting L Ron to pick him up in a spaceship some day and others thought they moved cars around to get through traffic faster or find parking spaces.

Oh wait, they still say that now! Never mind. :LOL:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
You are not any sort of C/S I'd want running my case.
That may be true, however I can 100% guarantee that the 100% standard tech will work on you 100% of the time (if you allow me to C/S you 100% of the time).

Like Dr. Hubbard, I can also 100% guarantee that if you choose me as your C/S, you will 100% be able exteriorize 100% of the time with 100% perception!

Ask yourself this---with all your other C/Ses did you attain what I have guaranteed you? I think maybe not. Why were your other C/Ses unable to give you the full and total and miraculous gains attainable by Dr. Hubbard's tech. It couldn't be that the tech didn't work, so we can eliminate that possibility. If that is the case the only two remaining options are that:

a). You are NCG ("SP"). Well we can definitely eliminate that one too.
b). Your C/S goofed the floof.

Goofing the floof is a very serious technical high crime! When you have time, you should really write up a Goofed Floofs That Shouldn't Be Report.

.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.

Natural Clear was only around to attest for a few years, then cancelled. I also attested natural clear in that time.
.

I rarely talk about my own case, but this time I will make an exception.

During the same time period you are describing, people were allowed to attest to many things. I personally attested to "NATURAL OT I". Even though I was not Clear yet (and had no idea what was on the OT 1 materials) I nonetheless I did "feel good about it" and attested.

For some here, that may seem strange, but let me assure you that it makes sense that I was able to attest to OT 1 before doing it because of this. I had actually done the drills from OT 1 on the wholetrack because during one period lasting 297,000 years I was gainfully employed by an intergalactic bus company and my post was in accounting. Thus (naturally) I was required on a daily basis to visit our chain of bus stations and count the bodies and write it down. To wit, the same exact process as OT 1, which confirms my suspicion that the owner of the Intergalactic Bus Corporation obviously must have been Ron! (Duh!)

Later when Dr. Hubbard canceled the state of "Natural OT 1", I was very angry. However when I eventually paid for the ALL NEW GOLDEN AGE OF TECH OT 1, I realized that there were completely new processes. For example, LRH also discovered a revolutionary breakthrough process where we had to visit train stations and count the bodies. Once I started running that, I had more case gain than in all of my previous auditing combined! At that moment my space expanded and my ruin* was fully handled for the first time!


* my ruin was not being able to locate a parking space without the assistance of a parking valet. That kind of by-pass put me in a perpetual condition of Danger and the wrong indication of it enturbulated my bank and that's how I lost my miraculous superpowers as an OT on the wholetrack.


.
 

Veda

Well-known member
During the the early 1980s, David Mayo made a test and found that many items on the Clearing Course were still un-flat on non Scientology Clearing Course Clears, including natural clears.

...despite my having attested Clear without having done the CC, my late C/S had the prescience to put me through it anyhow, a gift for which I can never thank him enough.

So, I'm now on Original OT IV and finding it quite enlightening...
Here is Hubbard's personal auditor and research assistant, David Mayo's 1989 take on the matter:

Link to Mayo on Clear.

Edit: typo
 
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Riddick

I clap to no man
I don't know what to tell people who responded on this thread, but let me say this. I'm married to a OT8 who has done the L's and a trained sec checker, I. and we, also know about 15 people who have done the whole bridge to freedom up to OT8.

It's all bullshit, a few of the OT8's I know died, and they are never coming back. No proof, ever.

The whole thing is rhetoric. And as Shakespeare says much ado about nothing.

Much ado about clear and much ado about OT, but really no nobody went clear and nobody went OT. It's all much ado.
 
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Barile

Well-known member
During the the early 1980s, David Mayo made a test and found that many items on the Clearing Course were still un-flat on non Scientology Course Course Clears, including natural clears.



Here is Hubbard's personal auditor and research assistant, David Mayo's 1989 take on the matter:

Link to Mayo on Clear.
lol...
>> LRH correctly stated that absolutes are unattainable. And the notion of "clear" is an absolute.

I never got to thank David for his assistance. I recall standing in his office at the Fort Harrison while I was on a c/s internship when he was senior c/s. We were having a "discussion" about some case or some shit, as it were. At one point, he looked me square in the eye and said... and I quote, "I never make mistakes." He said it with a straight face, except for the vein bulging in his forehead. Fortunately, I was not sipping a coffee at that moment, or there would have been a fatal spit take accident. My mind raced, from the darkness a shot rang out. The entire galaxy was sucked into my left ear and swirled around my head. The thought in my head gained a clear and well formed idea. The thought was, "oh... I see how it is. you are out of your fucking mind." At that point I attained a new, hithertoo unsuspected state of Clear, the State of Kiss My Ass. It might have ended up differently. It might have taken decades to achieve that state, or never at all, had he not shared that one little assertion.

Thanks David, it's the little things. ( no pun intended )

 
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guanoloco

As-Wased
.


.

I rarely talk about my own case, but this time I will make an exception.

During the same time period you are describing, people were allowed to attest to many things. I personally attested to "NATURAL OT I". Even though I was not Clear yet (and had no idea what was on the OT 1 materials) I nonetheless I did "feel good about it" and attested.

For some here, that may seem strange, but let me assure you that it makes sense that I was able to attest to OT 1 before doing it because of this. I had actually done the drills from OT 1 on the wholetrack because during one period lasting 297,000 years I was gainfully employed by an intergalactic bus company and my post was in accounting. Thus (naturally) I was required on a daily basis to visit our chain of bus stations and count the bodies and write it down. To wit, the same exact process as OT 1, which confirms my suspicion that the owner of the Intergalactic Bus Corporation obviously must have been Ron! (Duh!)

Later when Dr. Hubbard canceled the state of "Natural OT 1", I was very angry. However when I eventually paid for the ALL NEW GOLDEN AGE OF TECH OT 1, I realized that there were completely new processes. For example, LRH also discovered a revolutionary breakthrough process where we had to visit train stations and count the bodies. Once I started running that, I had more case gain than in all of my previous auditing combined! At that moment my space expanded and my ruin* was fully handled for the first time!


* my ruin was not being able to locate a parking space without the assistance of a parking valet. That kind of by-pass put me in a perpetual condition of Danger and the wrong indication of it enturbulated my bank and that's how I lost my miraculous superpowers as an OT on the wholetrack.


.
I knew there was a reason I visit these stupid fucking threads.

That was pure comedy gold.

I factually laughed out loud with real honest to god tears!!!

Hilarious!!


I'll be chuckling over this for some time to come!!

Scientology is so stupid. I can't believe I ever took this stupid shit seriously.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
.

I don't know what to tell people who responded on this thread, but let me say this. I'm married to a OT8 who has done the L's and a trained sec checker, I. and we, also know about 15 people who have done the whole bridge to freedom up to OT8. It's all bullshit, a few of the OT8's I know died, and they are never coming back. No proof, ever. The whole thing is rhetoric. And as Shakespeare says much ado about nothing. Much ado about clear and much ado about OT, but really no nobody went clear and nobody went OT. It's all much ado.
.

You have written often and well about one of the fundamental cornerstones of Scientology's 71 year crime wave--Rhetoric!

I am officially proposing that we include Rhetoric in a newly discovered Scientology "triangle":

.
THE LRH TRIANGLE
Lying Rhetorical Hoax

It's a monumental mathematical breakthrough that literally reinvents traditional geometry. Because each corner of the LRH Triangle has (within it) not just one--but a multitude of other angles (e.g. the Religion Angle).

The purpose of the LRH Triangle is unfortunately extremely confidential and therefore fully unknown to all Scientologists worldwide, except to the Commodore himself, and later his successor COB. I am quite sure when they are ready to explain it to us they will do so without any slightest lying, rhetoric or hoaxes, whatsoever! So we've got that going for us.

:hattip:


.
 
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Veda

Well-known member
lol...
>> LRH correctly stated that absolutes are unattainable. And the notion of "clear" is an absolute.

I never got to thank David for his assistance. I recall standing in his office at the Fort Harrison while I was on a c/s internship when he was senior c/s. We were having a "discussion" about some case or some shit, as it were. At one point, he looked me square in the eye and said... and I quote, "I never make mistakes." He said it with a straight face, except for the vein bulging in his forehead. Fortunately, I was not sipping a coffee at that moment, or there would have been a fatal spit take accident. My mind raced, from the darkness a shot rang out. The entire galaxy was sucked into my left hear and swirled around my head. The thought in my head gained a clear and well formed idea. The thought was, "oh... I see how it is. you are out of your fucking mind." At that point I attained a new, hithertoo unsuspected state of Clear, the State of Kiss My Ass. It might have ended up differently. It might have taken decades to achieve that state, or never at all, had he not shared that one little assertion.

Thanks David, it's the little things. ( no pun intended )

During the the early 1980s, David Mayo made a test and found that many items on the Clearing Course were still un-flat on non Scientology Clearing Course Clears, including natural clears.

Here is Hubbard's personal auditor and research assistant, David Mayo's 1989 take on the matter:

Link to Mayo on Clear.
Didn't know David Mayo when he was in the Sea Org.







My first conversation with him was when he was at the Advanced Ability Center, which he had started in California. As an authorized "squirrel" group it was under pretty much constant attack from Scientology Inc. They even had a spy planted in their staff - Ray Mithoff's brother, I think; and they were being harrased in various ways, and were being sued.

The people there were recently out, and still somewhat naive, but they were gradually learning.

Three years later, during 1986, David Mayo was interviewed by Russell Miller, author of this book.


Paperback edition


And then, three years after that, the article on Clear appeared in both International Viewpoints (IVy) and the Free Spirit magazines. The readership were mostly what would be called "Independent Scientologists" or, at least, people still recovering from having been in Scientology. The 1989 article on Clear helped a lot of people to sort out what happened to them, especially during the "Dianetic Clear" period starting at 1978.

Perhaps the most startling quote - for the "freezone/independent" readership - was: "It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were 'Clear' at a certain point."

That meant that Hubbard was willing to corrupt the "tech." That may seem an unimportant insight to grizzled exes, but it was a startling realization to some.

It meant that Hubbard was not always honest with Scientologists, and was doing something other than what he publicly stated he was doing.

Another example of this was Hubbard's use of the dictum that people leave/criticize Scientology because of hidden crimes.

"Never discuss Scientology with a critic. Just discuss his or her crimes, known or unknown.
And act completely confident that these crimes exist. Because they do."









Link to The real reason people leave Scientology thread, about Hubbard secretly telling David Mayo (senior Case Supervisor International) and Bill Franks (eventually made Executive Director Int.) that the idea that people leave because of their overts and withholds was false and that, to make a long story short, it (leaving/criticizing = hidden crimes) was a control mechanism. (The implied rationalization, that justified the control mechanism, was that it empowered Scientology and Scientology was the only hope, etc.)

To any lurkers: Suggest considering the above linked thread and its contents, if you're thinking there must be something wrong with you, or you must have hidden (or occluded or even "whole track") crimes, because you've considered leaving Scientology, either physically or mentally.

Note: The linked thread title states that the real reason people leave Scientology is ARC breaks (upsets), which is often the case, but many have left without having ARC breaks (without being upset), and those people left because they chose to leave, and they disagreed because they chose to disagree, and critiqued and criticized because they chose to critique and criticize.
IMO, the above doesn't mean, automatically, that every inch of what is labelled "Scientology" is all bad. There are other possibilities than "all bad" or "all good." But that's another discussion.

:scratch:

Edit: Imagery added
 
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Barile

Well-known member
Didn't know David Mayo when he was in the Sea Org.
Oh snap, Veda. Ya, he was the Big Kahuna in the late '70's while I was there. Brian Livingston was the intern sup, Dennis Erlich was the cramming officer along with Jeff Walker as I recall. A few of us all went to Flag at about the same time for training, Ray Mithoff, James Fiducia and myself.
I think James was the first one back to LA, then me. Ray took much longer to return, and it wasn't long before he would be sent back to Flag to replace Mayo as senior c/s, now disgraced and effectively "dead agented". Karen was sent to CC to replace Ray as senior c/s. Good times, good times. Something was up towards the middle of my c/s internship. I walked in one day and sat down at the desk, opened a folder, only to find the
my c/s instructions marked "Very Well Done, LRH". I was like, "wtf?". It then became a regular thing.
Now I know I said I never got to thank Mayo, but I did make the drive up to Santa Barbara after I was out. Rented a car so nobody could track my license plates. I sat there and listened to him speak to about 50 or 60 people.... with Bob Mithoff nailed to my side ( Bob... the inside spy that everyone knew was an inside spy ). I was only there to gloat, and gloat I did. I did get to say hello, but I figured it would be a social faux pas to
do a happy dance, and after all, he was still "never wrong". Right?
 
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