Management by Punishment and humiliation

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
I wonder if Hubbard took recreational drugs in the 50s and 60s when he was still healthy and was making all the choices for himself.
There's of bunch of posts on the archival ESMB by people who had worked with Hubbard
and socialized with him. Some claim to have seen or heard things. One person claimed to
have smoked pot with him. Right now, the search feature is not working, but after it comes
back up you can check there. There's a bunch of stuff you can sift through.
 

Riddick

I clap to no man
Yeah, but the 1980s situation is different because by that time Hubbard was apparently ill. I wonder if Hubbard took recreational drugs in the 50s and 60s when he was still healthy and was making all the choices for himself.

Again: I am not trying to defend Hubbard, but I'm trying to find out the truth and this means giving people a fair shake - even the old clam. From all the info I've seen, the 85-86 situation appears pretty clear: Hubbard was ill and was in fact losing his mental faculties. By the end, I'm entirely convinced that Dave and Pat were forging Hubbard's signatures on his outgoing mail and Hubbard himself was incapacitated.
I was not there, but I am strongly convinced that the buttock-injected vistaril was administered to him when he was no longer in command of anything and not capable of giving or refusing consent.
We are all in agreement here, you, myself, I love to lurk.

"I was not there, but I am strongly convinced that the buttock-injected vistaril was administered to him when he was no longer in command of anything and not capable of giving or refusing consent."

I would agree.

What sucks is that DM and Pat are con artists too. The LRH death event comes to mind, and I'd include all those assholes that spoke at the event. It was all rhetoric that LRH causatively left the body to do further research, lawyers too, because they wrote the speak by little prick DM.

 

Riddick

I clap to no man
yah Pat, you are right, BS artist here. And yet a few months or years after you gave that BS speech, you blew and DM had PI's follow you.


 

Riddick

I clap to no man
here's the whole god damn event, sorry, I couldn't find it earlier:

 

onceuponatime

Well-known member
I think it's pretty clear that this whole style of management comes from Hubbard. Frankly it's kind of lucky that management has continued in his footsteps. If there was a change in the culture of Scientology I don't think it would be crashing nearly as hard. There's still the crazy alien stuff but there wouldn't be all this backlash for the abuse.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Yeah, but the 1980s situation is different because by that time Hubbard was apparently ill. I wonder if Hubbard took recreational drugs in the 50s and 60s when he was still healthy and was making all the choices for himself.

Again: I am not trying to defend Hubbard, but I'm trying to find out the truth and this means giving people a fair shake - even the old clam. From all the info I've seen, the 85-86 situation appears pretty clear: Hubbard was ill and was in fact losing his mental faculties. By the end, I'm entirely convinced that Dave and Pat were forging Hubbard's signatures on his outgoing mail and Hubbard himself was incapacitated.
I was not there, but I am strongly convinced that the buttock-injected vistaril was administered to him when he was no longer in command of anything and not capable of giving or refusing consent.
In his son's interview in Penthouse magazine,


Junior said

Hubbard: Two of the people we were involved with in the late fifties in England were Errol Flynn and a man who was high up in the Labor Party at the time. My father and Errol Flynn were very similar. They were only interested in money, sex, booze, and drugs. At that time, in the late fifties, Flynn was pretty much of a burned-out hulk. But he was involved in smuggling deals with my father: gold from the Mediterranean, and some drugs --mostly cocaine. They were both just a little larger than life. I had to admire my father from one standpoint. As I've said, he was a down-and-out, broke science-fiction writer, and then he writes one book of science-fiction and convinces the world it's true. He sells it to millions of people and gets billions of dollars and everyone thinks he's some sort of deity. He was really bigger than life. Flynn was like that, too. You could say many negative things about the two of them, but they did as they pleased and lived as they pleased. It was always fun to sit there at dinner and listen to these two guys rap. Wild people. Errol Flynn was like my father also in that he would do anything for money. He would take anything to bed --boys, girls, Fifty-year-old women, ten-year-old boys, Flynn and my father had insatiable appetites. Tons of mistresses. They lived very high on the hog.
 

Karen#1

Well-known member
Hubbard might have been into drugs in earlier spells of his life.

Certainly not on the Apollo. Messengers one for one who were with him several hours a day and have debunked this Hubbard on drugs. None of the Sea Org members who cleaned for him say any drugs anywhere in his private quarters.

When he had that very bad motor cycle accident, he refused to take any pain killers and could not lie down but had assisting living in a chair without drugs. It is covered in Janis Grady;'s books thoroughly. Janis was with him 8 hours a day for some 11 years.

 

TheSneakster

Well-known member
Junior said ... <lots of garbage about his Father in Penthouse Magazine?
Junior also wrote the following a letter to the IRS dated 11 Feb, 1985 (recovered via FOIA from FBI files):

Ron DeWolf said:
I’ve written several pieces which were fictionalized. Fictionalized with great purpose and great care. They contain “booby traps” and “tags”. Remember always: I have spent 25 years in a running gun battle. They had the guns; I had the battle. I’ve always told people those writings were scrambled and/or fictionalized. I’ve never tried to sell fiction as truth. I will someday unscramble and defictionalize them at the right time and place; where it will do the most good; Such as open court and/or as a matter of public record and/or in public. So that the actual facts can not be destroyed.
Ron DeWolf admitted to just making shit up about Ron Hubbard. He also retracted everything bad he said about Ron Hubbard in a couple of different court cases.
 

Harold#1

A VERY STABLE SUPER GENIUS!!
Tony Ortega wrote:

Levin says Kima told him that Denk gave Hubbard several pads of blank prescriptions that he’d pre-signed. “Hubbard was self-prescribing drugs for himself. A lot were oral, but some were by needle,” Levin says Kima told him. “Kima was afraid to talk about it because they were declaring people,” he says, referring to Scientology’s version of excommunication, “declaring” someone a “suppressive person.” She told Levin that Hubbard was dying. “He was so wacked out because of all the drugs. He’s going to die soon, and guess who’s going to take the fall,” she told him.

Dincalci says that’s what he saw, too.

“Yes, Denk pre-signed the pads,” he says. “I would write them up and go get them.”

Dincalci says that during the Gerry Armstrong litigation in 1983, he was deposed by church attorneys, who asked him about the allegation. “I said, ‘I still have those pads from Denk,’ and then the deposition was over. They didn’t want to hear anymore,” he says.


 
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Karen#1

Well-known member
Junior also wrote the following a letter to the IRS dated 11 Feb, 1985 (recovered via FOIA from FBI files):



Ron DeWolf admitted to just making shit up about Ron Hubbard. He also retracted everything bad he said about Ron Hubbard in a couple of different court cases.
Ron deWolfe was a flip flopper.
He allied with Paulette Cooper.
She trusted him and shared a lot with him.
Then he flipped to the cult and Paulette was left hung out to dry.
She details it all in her book.
I read somewhere deWolfe received a tidy sum $$$$ to retract his previous writes ups on Hubbard.
Flip floppers are hard to believe no matter what the testimony.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Junior also wrote the following a letter to the IRS dated 11 Feb, 1985 (recovered via FOIA from FBI files):



Ron DeWolf admitted to just making shit up about Ron Hubbard. He also retracted everything bad he said about Ron Hubbard in a couple of different court cases.
A lot of people would say they were Martians, if they had a gun to their head.
 

TheSneakster

Well-known member
Ron deWolfe was a flip flopper.
He allied with Paulette Cooper.
She trusted him and shared a lot with him.
Then he flipped to the cult and Paulette was left hung out to dry.
Tony Ortega posted a lengthy article on his blog concerning the above and other details of Ron DeWolfe unforunate flip-flopping history dated 13 Dec, 2017.

I read somewhere deWolfe received a tidy sum $$$$ to retract his previous writes ups on Hubbard.
Flip floppers are hard to believe no matter what the testimony.
AFAIK, that claim came from Bent Corydon and his researcher Brian Ambry. I do not have a reference to cite for that at the moment, though.
 
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Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
Hubbard might have been into drugs in earlier spells of his life.

Certainly not on the Apollo. Messengers one for one who were with him several hours a day and have debunked this Hubbard on drugs. None of the Sea Org members who cleaned for him say any drugs anywhere in his private quarters.

When he had that very bad motor cycle accident, he refused to take any pain killers and could not lie down but had assisting living in a chair without drugs. It is covered in Janis Grady;'s books thoroughly. Janis was with him 8 hours a day for some 11 years.

Great thanks for that post Karen. I was afraid that if I brought up Ron DeWolf's muddled track record and said that I think his stories about Ron senior are full of nonsense, then people would just accuse me of trying to defend Hubbard and of being an apologist for the church. Having you say this really helps.

I honestly can't bring myself to believe most of what Ron jr says. The spiked bubblegum and similar things like that. Sounds too out there for me to believe in it unless there is an independent second trustworthy source that would corroborate that. Janis Grady certainly appears to me as a much more reliable source. Having to choose, I'm gonna believe Janis over Ron any day.

Which is not to say I am willing to dismiss all the other sources that mention some drugs. Kima Douglas comes off as a possible trustworthy source on that. I think it is likely that the old man really did have blank prescriptions, but I have no real evidence what exactly he used them for.

Its just my speculation, but somehow I doubt he would use them for psychedelic drugs. I would venture a very careful guess that he might have been prescribing himself some sort of mood stabilizer. Especially if we assume he really was manic-depressive (and I think he might have been given how people described his mood swings and frantic activity when he was in his up mood).

That's just my guess, nothing more.



As for Hubbard in general, the people in this country have a saying that can be roughly translated as: "If the gods really want to make someone suffer, they give him all he ever wanted". I think that is exactly what happened to Hubbard.
 
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Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
No sign of any figurative or literal gun to Ron DeWolf's head when he admitted to just making shit up to the IRS.
DeWolf had no real professional skills. When he died, his last job was working as a security guard for a small casino.

A guy may find it tempting to have a little cash so he can eat something better than cat food for dinner.
 

TheSneakster

Well-known member
DeWolf had no real professional skills. When he died, his last job was working as a security guard for a small casino.

A guy may find it tempting to have a little cash so he can eat something better than cat food for dinner.
Well, after mid-2014 I spent two years homeless living in Skid Row, Los Angeles. The first year was spent camping on the street at night in a 7' by 4' pup tent. Believe me, I do know something of desperate times - I did not get a proper night's sleep for nearly a year due to the constant threat of being robbed or murdered. [Edit addendum: HelluvaHoax! has seen fit to mock my traumatic experience and near death with vicious remarks and pictures about former Scientologist "hobos" in a recent posted comment on my post in the "Leaving Scientology" sub-forum].

However, when an agent for Leah Remini's Aftermath show contacted me to see whether I might be interviewed for a segment about homeless former Co$ members with the understanding their would be compensation, I politely declined. I had been offloaded from PAC Base over Christmas 1995 (IIRC) with 24 hours to be off the property and was able to find housing and a job in 12 hours. I did not become truly homeless until over a decade later. So I did not think it would be fair to blame Co$ for that and would not take money to say so.

Ron DeWolf hooked up with enemies of his father and ultimately ran off with them in November 1959 ( according to an HCO PL about it). His very noisy public attacks and refusal to reconcile with his dad ultimately got him disinherited. The FBI documents recovered by FOIA show that 'Nibs" had a hand in pretty much every major attack on Co$ and his father in the 1960's and he piled up legal expenses in multiple failed lawsuits - especially the failed 1983 Hubbard Estate lawsuit.

The way I see it, this guy figuratively cut down a tree of lies, built his own bed out of it, and then had to sleep in it.

At the same time, I reckon the whole affair a great tragedy and I'm sorry he and his father never reconciled. Sure, Ron Hubbard, Senior's personality and behavior probably was a major factor in the big blowup, but a man makes his own choices at the end of the day.
 
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Karen#1

Well-known member
Some punishments have been extreme.
Take Kurt Weiland, an Austrian who worked as "CO Munich" (Commanding Officer) for some years before he was imported to
Office of Special Affairs and became CO OSA INT.
In the valence of the worst of RTC thugs, Kurt was ruthless exec,,,BUT Kurt Weiland.jpgas Karma would have it, the cult execs turned on him brutally.
In SP Hole, he was tied in a chair for "water torture" where cold water drip dripped on him for several hours.
After shivering for a while , his lips turned blue.
SP hole PUNISHMENT.
 
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Riddick

I clap to no man
Ron deWolfe was a flip flopper.
He allied with Paulette Cooper.
She trusted him and shared a lot with him.
Then he flipped to the cult and Paulette was left hung out to dry.
She details it all in her book.
I read somewhere deWolfe received a tidy sum $$$$ to retract his previous writes ups on Hubbard.
Flip floppers are hard to believe no matter what the testimony.
I believe there have been many flip floppers. I believe everything L Ron Hubbard, Jr, aka, Nibs, said during the Clearwater hearings. He really tells the story of his dad and why he left.

You gotta figure, why would a son of Mankinds Greatest friend leave?

You also have to figure why would somebody highly trained in Hubbard's tech leave?

Like yourself, Karen, why did you leave, you are highly trained in everything Hubbard wrote.

Why would somebody who has intimate knowledge of his dad, who claims to have discovered the secrets of the universe of clear, and OT and past lives, and how to get people to come back from dead to reclaim their body, with full memory of having lived a past life? Why would they leave?

The answer is because there are no clears, OT's, or coming back from dead thru training and auditing, or dianetics or scientology procedures.
 
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