Management by Punishment and humiliation

Karen#1

Well-known member
One of the worst traits of Hubbard is much he invented cruel and unusual punishments to *discipline* Sea Org Members
who were already sacrificing their lives

With no days Off
No annual leave
No ability to have children (co-erced abortions)
No freedom of where to be located (even if spouse was 1000s of miles away in another org)
Little to no pay, a pittance
etc etc etc

A later punishment was that the person with bad stats was assigned to the "It's Got Nothing To Do With Me" Club. It was announced to the whole crew in ethics order. Loss of canteen privileges, no libs, reduced pay, lower condition assignments.
Any readers in the forum experience it ?

Humiliation.png
 

Karen#1

Well-known member
Excerpt:
Jan Mortensen CMO Int/WDC/Gold — “Worked in WDC, CMO Int and Gold. We both got assigned to the ‘It’s Got Nothing To Do With Me’ Club for some stupid reason. This is an actual ‘club’ established by an LRH issue with directions of how you get out of the club. You have to do amends, write a 500- (or so) word essay about how your job has nothing to do with you and various other steps. Jan and I worked through the night to get through these steps. Lame.”

 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
No ability to have children (co-erced abortions)
No freedom of where to be located (even if spouse was 1000s of miles away in another org)
Were those two things ordered by Hubbard? All of that was way before my time, but I remember at least a few people mention that Hubbard tried to assure that couples would be based in the same place.

I think Janis Grady in her interview with Jeff Augustine even said that Hubbard would get mad when he heard someone else did it.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
Were those two things ordered by Hubbard? All of that was way before my time, but I remember at least a few people mention that Hubbard tried to assure that couples would be based in the same place.

I think Janis Grady in her interview with Jeff Augustine even said that Hubbard would get mad when he heard someone else did it.
It was a direct and predictable outcome of the system he put in place.

Sea Org members are the property of the Sea Org. They have to go where sent.

Children "distract from production", and are therefore to be strongly discouraged by any executive who hopes to get his stats up this week. Executives who show signs of being "people oriented" (more concerned about their subordinates' well being than with stats) are to be immediately removed (there was an LRH Policy to that effect which I read).

LRH, I think, was concerned with his PR image, and so let others do the dirty work.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
It was a direct and predictable outcome of the system he put in place.

Sea Org members are the property of the Sea Org. They have to go where sent.

Children "distract from production", and are therefore to be strongly discouraged by any executive who hopes to get his stats up this week. Executives who show signs of being "people oriented" (more concerned about their subordinates' well being than with stats) are to be immediately removed (there was an LRH Policy to that effect which I read).

LRH, I think, was concerned with his PR image, and so let others do the dirty work.
Perhaps. Again: I feel far less comfortable talking about Hubbard than Dave, because I was not there. I was a baby when the old man kicked the bucket.

All I can do is read and listen to what the people who knew him say. Ron De Wolfe said he drank life a fish and did drugs. Janis says she never seen him do any drugs and that he drank very, very moderately.

Its really hard to get any cohesive image of him. I think the problem is that, like with anything in scientology, people tend to either entirely idolize him or entirely vilify him. There's few people who speak of him in terms of normal human being.

I tend to trust Janis more, because I feel her account is the most down-to-earth of those that I encountered.
 

Chuck J.

Election Fraud Has Consequences
Perhaps. Again: I feel far less comfortable talking about Hubbard than Dave, because I was not there. I was a baby when the old man kicked the bucket.

All I can do is read and listen to what the people who knew him say. Ron De Wolfe said he drank life a fish and did drugs. Janis says she never seen him do any drugs and that he drank very, very moderately.

Its really hard to get any cohesive image of him. I think the problem is that, like with anything in scientology, people tend to either entirely idolize him or entirely vilify him. There's few people who speak of him in terms of normal human being.

I tend to trust Janis more, because I feel her account is the most down-to-earth of those that I encountered.
Here's my down to earth account of meeting Hubbard (several times): His ego was huge. Huge, as in it has it's own gravitational field. Like a Black Hole Star, it sucks in every particle within parsecs (1 parsec = 3.26 light years) With him it was admiration, he fed on it. Which always contrasted / disagreed with his statement in the Code of Honor i.e. Never desire to be liked by another. But he was a bundle of contradictions, he loved the adulation but hated and did not respect yesmen, he enjoyed chatting with me because I just talked to him like a normal person and cracked him up with a joke, and yet in the grand scheme of the cult I was nobody, at least post-wise. He was a weird dude.
 
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Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
Here's my down to earth account of meeting Hubbard (several times): His ego was huge. Huge, as in it has it's own gravitational field. Like a Black Hole Star, it sucks in every particle within parsecs (1 parsec = 3.26 light years) With him it was admiration, he fed on it. Which always contrasted / disagreed with his statement in the Code of Honor i.e. Never desire to be liked by another. But he was a bundle of contradictions, he loved the adulation but hated and did not respect yesmen, he enjoyed chatting with me because I just talked to him like a normal person and cracked him up with a joke, and yet in the grand scheme of the cult I was nobody, at least post-wise. He was a weird dude.
Yes, that is one more contradiction I read about him. Some people wrote that he loved admiration and surrounded himself with sycophants, others wrote that he had real contempt for sycophants and loved people who would disagree with him in an intelligent manner.
 

Chuck J.

Election Fraud Has Consequences
Yes, that is one more contradiction I read about him. Some people wrote that he loved admiration and surrounded himself with sycophants, others wrote that he had real contempt for sycophants and loved people who would disagree with him in an intelligent manner.
Yup.
 

TheSneakster

Well-known member
Excerpt:
We both got assigned to the ‘It’s Got Nothing To Do With Me’ Club for some stupid reason. This is an actual ‘club’ established by an LRH issue with directions of how you get out of the club.
I'm not trying to be adversarial here, but there are a couple of points that bother me about this excerpt from Tony Ortega:

(1) The context is "people who were imprisoned in The Hole", well that didn't exist before January, 2004. Ron Hubbard died in January 1986 and sure as hell never ordered this prison created. That was all on David "Darth Midget" Miscavige.

(2) The date this punishment was inflicted upon Jan Mortensen has been omitted. It is unclear from the context whether this was part of her punishment in The Hole, or happened at some earlier date. Did this happen before or after Darth Midget gained total control over Scientology sometime in 1988 ?

(3) So far, I cannot locate any such Hubbard issue. There was no such punishment in use in PAC Base at any time I was there. I left the Sea Org a the end of 1995. There was nothing like that at Flag Land Base when I was at Int Management Org, Clearwater in 1981.

(4) Also omitted: Who actually assigned her this punishment? David "Darth Midget" Miscavige, was it not ?

If that is the case, it was David Miscavige who subjected her to this humiliating punishment, not Ron Hubbard. My takeaway is that Darkside Dave wanted to humiliate some WDC people, so he digs up this moldy old Hubbard issue nobody in the Sea Org has been using for at least a couple of decades. Then he falsely assigns them this "Nothing to do with me" Ethics Condition and punishment and blames it on Ron Hubbard, as you seem to be doing.

Hubbard died in January, 1986. David "Darth Midget" Miscavige had the power to run the Sea Org and Int Base any way he chose after he got rid of the Broekers in 1988. Miscavige provably ignores any and all Hubbard technical and policy issues at will. Therefore it was Miscavige who chose to make Int Base a far crueler place that it had ever been under Ron Hubbard.
 

Bill

Well-known member
I'm not trying to be adversarial here, but there are a couple of points that bother me about this excerpt from Tony Ortega:

(1) The context is "people who were imprisoned in The Hole", well that didn't exist before January, 2004. Ron Hubbard died in January 1986 and sure as hell never ordered this prison created. That was all on David "Darth Midget" Miscavige.

(2) The date this punishment was inflicted upon Jan Mortensen has been omitted. It is unclear from the context whether this was part of her punishment in The Hole, or happened at some earlier date. Did this happen before or after Darth Midget gained total control over Scientology sometime in 1988 ?

(3) So far, I cannot locate any such Hubbard issue. There was no such punishment in use in PAC Base at any time I was there. I left the Sea Org a the end of 1995. There was nothing like that at Flag Land Base when I was at Int Management Org, Clearwater in 1981.

(4) Also omitted: Who actually assigned her this punishment? David "Darth Midget" Miscavige, was it not ?

If that is the case, it was David Miscavige who subjected her to this humiliating punishment, not Ron Hubbard. My takeaway is that Darkside Dave wanted to humiliate some WDC people, so he digs up this moldy old Hubbard issue nobody in the Sea Org has been using for at least a couple of decades. Then he falsely assigns them this "Nothing to do with me" Ethics Condition and punishment and blames it on Ron Hubbard, as you seem to be doing.

Hubbard died in January, 1986. David "Darth Midget" Miscavige had the power to run the Sea Org and Int Base any way he chose after he got rid of the Broekers in 1988. Miscavige provably ignores any and all Hubbard technical and policy issues at will. Therefore it was Miscavige who chose to make Int Base a far crueler place that it had ever been under Ron Hubbard.
Who wrote all the very abusive RPF issues? Oh, that was Hubbard! If you do a little bit of research, you will find stories of Hubbard's very, very abusive orders into the Int Base in his last years. Miscavige is only continuing Hubbard's insanity.
 

TheSneakster

Well-known member
One of the worst traits of Hubbard is much he invented cruel and unusual punishments to *discipline* Sea Org Members
who were already sacrificing their lives


( ... )
No ability to have children (co-erced ["coerced"] abortions)
( ... )
Ron Hubbard was dead and his ashes scattered over the sea when David "Darth Midget" Miscavige instituted the Sea Org ban on children and long dead when he began the practice of coerced abortions at Gold Base.

Flag Order 3905 Children, Sea Org Members and Sea Org Orgs was written and issued by ED Int Guillaume Lesevre in Sept. 1986, some 9 months after Ron Hubbard died and by orders of David "Darth Midget" Miscavige, not Ron Hubbard. It was issued as an attack on Suzette Hubbard, who was pregnant with her son Tyson at the time:

From an article titled Suppression of Family Starting with L Ron Hubbard's Family dated 15 June, 2010 (on Mark Rathbun's blog):

Mark Rathbun said:
Suzette and Guy were married on March 8th 1986. Suzette immediately became pregnant and was ordered to the International base by Miscavige.

Guy White, who was already at the base, was assigned to the RPF in the summer of that same year. At the Happy Valley locale of the Int base RPF, he joined his brother-in-law Arthur Hubbard and the only other male figure in left the family, Jon Horwich (ex-husband of Diana Hubbard and father to their daughter – Roanne).

During Suzette’s pregnancy, DM ordered published an issue stating that no babies can be born to S.O. Members. Did you get that? He put that issue out while LRH’s daughter was pregnant and in the S.O.

Tyson Hubbard White was born 9 months and 1 day after his parents were married, 9 Dec 1986.


Coerced Abortions at Int Base were pushed at Darth Midget's orders per
Claire Headly in her lawsuit:

According to her account, practical implementation of Flag Order 3905 was not simply to transfer women who fell pregnant out of the Sea Org.

“Some of these women went through extensive pressure methods to convince them to have an abortion … I myself got pregnant in 1993 and gave up my child due to my greatly misguided obligation and dedication to the Sea Org …

“Although I would have dearly loved to have had my child and the idea of abortion is abhorrent to me, I did not dare to say it would be nice to keep my baby.”

Since it was considered “Out-Ethics” – unethical – for her to have got pregnant in the first place, she was expected to pay for the abortion herself.

Her senior also told her that when she went to the clinic she was not to let on that she worked at the International Base “because there were too many going there from the base for abortions” and it was considered bad public relations.
 

Enthetan

Veteran of the Psychic Wars
I'm not trying to be adversarial here, but there are a couple of points that bother me about this excerpt from Tony Ortega:

(1) The context is "people who were imprisoned in The Hole", well that didn't exist before January, 2004. Ron Hubbard died in January 1986 and sure as hell never ordered this prison created. That was all on David "Darth Midget" Miscavige.

(2) The date this punishment was inflicted upon Jan Mortensen has been omitted. It is unclear from the context whether this was part of her punishment in The Hole, or happened at some earlier date. Did this happen before or after Darth Midget gained total control over Scientology sometime in 1988 ?

(3) So far, I cannot locate any such Hubbard issue. There was no such punishment in use in PAC Base at any time I was there. I left the Sea Org a the end of 1995. There was nothing like that at Flag Land Base when I was at Int Management Org, Clearwater in 1981.

(4) Also omitted: Who actually assigned her this punishment? David "Darth Midget" Miscavige, was it not ?

If that is the case, it was David Miscavige who subjected her to this humiliating punishment, not Ron Hubbard. My takeaway is that Darkside Dave wanted to humiliate some WDC people, so he digs up this moldy old Hubbard issue nobody in the Sea Org has been using for at least a couple of decades. Then he falsely assigns them this "Nothing to do with me" Ethics Condition and punishment and blames it on Ron Hubbard, as you seem to be doing.

Hubbard died in January, 1986. David "Darth Midget" Miscavige had the power to run the Sea Org and Int Base any way he chose after he got rid of the Broekers in 1988. Miscavige provably ignores any and all Hubbard technical and policy issues at will. Therefore it was Miscavige who chose to make Int Base a far crueler place that it had ever been under Ron Hubbard.
Read up on Hubbard assigning people to the chain locker during the Apollo days.


Read up on Hubbards sadistic humiliation of people in the exscn.net archives.


I'll wait.
 

Karen#1

Well-known member
Co-erced abortions occurred on the Apollo.

Less vital and less senior messengers were given the option of offload to a Class IV org.

Testified to by messengers and witnessed by those around.

I eye witnessed messengers and other SEA Org returnees to APOLLO post abortion and did the clean up (counseling) sessions.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Ron Hubbard was dead and his ashes scattered over the sea when David "Darth Midget" Miscavige instituted the Sea Org ban on children and long dead when he began the practice of coerced abortions at Gold Base.

Flag Order 3905 Children, Sea Org Members and Sea Org Orgs was written and issued by ED Int Guillaume Lesevre in Sept. 1986, some 9 months after Ron Hubbard died and by orders of David "Darth Midget" Miscavige, not Ron Hubbard. It was issued as an attack on Suzette Hubbard, who was pregnant with her son Tyson at the time:

From an article titled Suppression of Family Starting with L Ron Hubbard's Family dated 15 June, 2010 (on Mark Rathbun's blog):

You've made a compelling case that L. Ron Hubbard didn't have any sociopathic policies (e.g. terrorizing, incarcerating, sadistic cruelties, et al) --and that anything bad that ever happened was the fault of David Miscavige.

At this point I feel I should get off a withhold. It seems that I have falsely attested to "CLEAR" because my memory is not perfect. There are dozens (in fact hundreds) of incidents I have "FALSE RECALL" (i.e. dub-in) about where Hubbard ordered and supervised horrendous abuse of adults and children alike. This made me begin to doubt my previous feelings that Hubbard was a sadistic criminal psychologically torturing and enslaving others while he stole all their money/time.

This is all very hard for me to reconcile. On one hand, Ron rose above mankind and selflessly (and humbly!) tendered the gift of technology to mankind on this planet. But, then again, there are vast numbers of eyewitnesses and victims who have given testimony of Hubbard's savagery and sadism. I feel confused! I perceive that if I wrote to Ron (using the Sea Org #1 line) he would want me to apply the CONFUSION formula.

Wait, I just remembered all your posts over the previous years where you explained all this by simply noting that "RON WAS DEAD" when that happened. I am wondering if this is the key to my dilemma and depression.

For example, on the Apollo the time Ron imprisoned a 4 year old inside a chain locker and the kid cried hysterically for days down in that cold dark hellhole. I am now wondering if Ron was dead during that period. This is beginning to make sense now. I can see a simple explanation, wherein Ron was doing advanced OT research and therefore was necessarily EXTERIOR to his MEST body. During such periods, Ron was light years away out in deep space, discovering more ways that psych implanters keep us all imprisoned on this slave planet. It is very possible that during said times, Ron's body would have died and only came back to life when Ron returned to earth and picked up the body again in time for dinner. Technically, a body without a thetan is dead----so Ron would not technically have been on the Apollo lines when that kid started dramatizing their bank and crying like a little downtone DB in Ron's uptone chain locker.

It's likely during such periods where Ron was not in his body that another person could have faked his signature and ordered that fucking out-PR kid to be brutally thrown into a chain locker.

Ron would not have done that.

Since Miscavige was alive during that period (although a kid himself, living thousands of miles away) there was nothing preventing him from using tone 40 postulates to ruin Ron's reputation and sabotage mankind's only hope to escape the prison planet.

Please, everyone, keep in mind that Ron never said anything about kid-kind's only hope to escape chain locker prisons.

This has been incredibly helpful to me, I've got that warm & fuzzy old FN-ey feeling back again!

.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Well-known member
Co-erced abortions occurred on the Apollo.

Less vital and less senior messengers were given the option of offload to a Class IV org.

Testified to by messengers and witnessed by those around.
.

Do you have any documents that prove that 100% of all Hubbard's victims AND the eyewitnesses who corroborated their stories are NOT lying?

Without that, it's pretty damn obvious that they ARE all lying, because LRH invented the "WAY TO HAPPINESS" technology. Clearly, IF any beings were not VVGIs (e.g. little kids in chainlockers, old ladies who could not swim being brutalized and thrown overboard, journalists being driven to suicide or framed/imprisoned for life based on bomb threats that Ron himself ordered) those beings were NOT HAPPY.

Ergo, Ron DIDN'T do that! He only did things that made beings happy, how obvious does this have to be? Helllllllloooooooooooooooooooo!





.
 
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Riddick

I clap to no man
Perhaps. Again: I feel far less comfortable talking about Hubbard than Dave, because I was not there. I was a baby when the old man kicked the bucket.

All I can do is read and listen to what the people who knew him say. Ron De Wolfe said he drank life a fish and did drugs. Janis says she never seen him do any drugs and that he drank very, very moderately.

Its really hard to get any cohesive image of him. I think the problem is that, like with anything in scientology, people tend to either entirely idolize him or entirely vilify him. There's few people who speak of him in terms of normal human being.

I tend to trust Janis more, because I feel her account is the most down-to-earth of those that I encountered.
you haven't read Hubbard's books or listened to Hubbard's lectures, to make a comparison.

If you have done so, you would realize how Hubbard put himself on a pedestal of a guru.

Hubbard himself said he was only a writer, although he mocked up in the minds of others he was more.

Hubbard never claimed he was clear or OT, just implied it thru his rhetoric writing.
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
you haven't read Hubbard's books or listened to Hubbard's lectures, to make a comparison.

If you have done so, you would realize how Hubbard put himself on a pedestal of a guru.

Hubbard himself said he was only a writer, although he mocked up in the minds of others he was more.

Hubbard never claimed he was clear or OT, just implied it thru his rhetoric writing.
Oh no doubt that Hubbard was a paranoid megalomaniac control-freak , (Gee who else has these 3 traits, could it be... Karakorum!?).

But that was not really the issue I had in mind in my last post. My questions about Ronnie, that receive conflicting information based on who you ask was:
- Was he a drug addict? If yet, then what exact drugs did he use?
- Did he abuse alcohol, or did he drink only moderately?
- Was it all 100% of a con to him? Or was it part con, part storytelling BS and part something he really believed in?
- What was his relation to sycophants? Did he know them as sycophants and hated them? Did he know them and appreciated them? Or was he simply ignorant of the fact?
- Did he intentionally leave clues to people about the true nature of Scientology? (that it is a "game" and an "implant?). Or was it done unintentionally?
 

ILove2Lurk

Lisbeth Salander
Was he a drug addict? If yet, then what exact drugs did he use?
Doctor Gene Denk left his practice in LA for a couple years to live out in Creston and
help a physically ailing Hubbard. Doctors usually administer drugs to their patients.
Was it all 100% of a con to him? Or was it part con, part storytelling BS and part something he really believed in?
Hubbard was solo auditing himself in 1985, the year he asked Sarge to build the custom "suicide e-meter," so
he must have believed in all of it to some degree. But Doctor Denk had reached out to top SO exec Bill Franks
for help, telling him that Hubbard was losing his mind a bit and suffering from dementia and paranoia. This is
revealed in Franks' last audio interview, as I recall.

Since you're curious and asking, here's more information in this well-documented article:

The Church of Scientology’s Great Big Lie About the Death of Founder L. Ron Hubbard
 

Karakorum

Broke ranks over 10 years ago, never looked back
Doctor Gene Denk left his practice in LA for a couple years to live out in Creston and
help a physically ailing Hubbard. Doctors usually administer drugs to their patients.

Hubbard was solo auditing himself in 1985, the year he asked Sarge to build the custom "suicide e-meter," so
he must have believed in all of it to some degree. But Doctor Denk had reached out to top SO exec Bill Franks
for help, telling him that Hubbard was losing his mind a bit and suffering from dementia and paranoia. This is
revealed in Franks' last audio interview, as I recall.

Since you're curious and asking, here's more information in this well-documented article:

The Church of Scientology’s Great Big Lie About the Death of Founder L. Ron Hubbard
Yeah, but the 1980s situation is different because by that time Hubbard was apparently ill. I wonder if Hubbard took recreational drugs in the 50s and 60s when he was still healthy and was making all the choices for himself.

Again: I am not trying to defend Hubbard, but I'm trying to find out the truth and this means giving people a fair shake - even the old clam. From all the info I've seen, the 85-86 situation appears pretty clear: Hubbard was ill and was in fact losing his mental faculties. By the end, I'm entirely convinced that Dave and Pat were forging Hubbard's signatures on his outgoing mail and Hubbard himself was incapacitated.
I was not there, but I am strongly convinced that the buttock-injected vistaril was administered to him when he was no longer in command of anything and not capable of giving or refusing consent.
 
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